Electric Cars

Trex
#1
Given the gadawful weather that Canada has been slogging through, I had to wonder.

How far does an electric car (battery powered) car go in minus 40C weather?
Sub 30C weather?
Does it become uneconomical from an energy footprint VS miles travelled perspective?

If the car is left for a few days in extremely cold weather, how does the residual charge (amp/hours) fare?
What if the car is left unplugged for a week or two in brutally cold weather, say at the long term lot at the airport. Then what?

How do you boost an electric car? Does it take hours and hours or days?

I have heard the power cells are still extremely expensive. I wonder if severe cold coupled with a heavy draw induces them to premature failure?

Its not that I dislike electric cars, its just the cold weather has got me wondering.

Trex
 
Socrates the Greek
#2
Hi Trex good questions, I wander how it would work in a cold environment such as this picture?

http://www.zastavki.com/pictures/102...s__003577_.jpg
Last edited by Socrates the Greek; Jan 15th, 2009 at 12:22 AM..
 
Ron in Regina
#3
.....or this environment for the other six months of the year...



It's warmed up here this morning to -30c without the wind, and -44c with it.
It was really cold a couple of hours ago, and for the last five weeks straight.
 
spilledthebeer
+1
#4  Top Rated Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Ron in Regina View Post

.....or this environment for the other six months of the year...



It's warmed up here this morning to -30c without the wind, and -44c with it.
It was really cold a couple of hours ago, and for the last five weeks straight.



The question of electric car range in COOL weather has already been answered- the range drops off drastically- 25 percent as we get close to freezing weather! What happens if it goes to minus 20 -30 is not yet known as electric toy car makers do NOT want us to know the answer to that one!

Consider this:


Here is an article I spotted on the MSN.ca home page and it illustrates what is wrong with LIE-beral policy related to electric cars. With some comments of my own in brackets):

Motor Mouth: The inconvenient truth about EVs in cold weather

Tesla’s Model 3 passengers need a “blankie” to complete its record-breaking cross-country Cannonball Run

By David Booth | January 26, 2018

So, a Tesla drove across the United States. That such a feat is no longer big news is testament to how far EVs have come and an indication electric vehicles are no longer limited to urban use.

What is newsworthy, however, is that Alex Roy, The Drive’s editor-at-large (and expert Cannonballer), along with the Model 3’s owner, Daniel Zorrilla, took but 50 hours, 16 minutes and 32 seconds to drive from Los Angeles to New York City, the quickest any car has ever travelled from U.S. coast to U.S. coast using electricity as its sole source of power.

This is not an accomplishment to be diminished. Ten years ago, such an expedition would have been measured in weeks, not hours. Even five years ago when Elon Musk began rolling out Superchargers across the land, criss-crossing the continent would have been all but unthinkable.

RELATED:

Motor Mouth: Holiday travel proves the fallacies of highway EV charging

Those who seek to diminish Roy and Zorrilla’s accomplishments by noting that the current Cannonball Run record is something less than 30 hours miss the point. Google calculates the 4,288 kilometre drive takes just a tad over 40 hours, which means Roy and Zorrilla spent only about 10 hours charging the Model 3 — not so long ago the time it would have taken for a single overnight charge of its (optional) 75 kilowatt-hour battery. It’s an impressive feat and proof of the progress in both EV technology and Tesla’s infrastructure development.

But does it mean — as is the subtext of virtually every story written about Roy’s trek — that EVs are ripe to supplant gasoline-fueled cars in the immediate future?

Uhm, not quite. You see, buried deep in Roy’s 4,345 word treatise on his adventure is the following little tidbit: “It’s too bad we kept the heat off for most of the drive.” Yes, in order to ensure they made it between Supercharger stations, Roy and Zorrilla drove through the worst weather much of the United States has seen in decades without the comfort of cabin heat. Indeed, both wore multiple layers of clothing, Zorrilla, according to Roy’s account, donning three layers of pants to stave off the frigid temperatures, while Roy himself had to buy a wool blanket halfway through the trip. That’s right, no heat in a US$55,000+ car that purports to play in the luxury segment.

RELATED

How It Works: Electric vehicle charging

Now Cannonballers past have made manifold sacrifices — ingesting massive amounts of caffeine, peeing in bottles and, even more gross, unless, of course, you’re the President of the United States, eating a steady diet of McDonald’s — in their pursuit of speed, but those compromises have always been to overcome human limitations, not compensate for the failing of the automobile. That Roy spends less than 50 words discussing the lack of cabin heat— with nothing remotely resembling a technical analysis of the energy used/saved and range extended by their plight — while devoting no less than 1,670 words to the Autopilot user interface (Roy actually spends more time stressing about the Model’s 3’s steering stalk than he does on the fact that he froze his ‘nads off for 50 straight hours speaks to someone deliberately not wanting to talk about an elephant in a room.

Here’s the discussion I think he was trying to avoid.

Fleetcarma.com – a website devoted to the adoption of plug-in electric vehicles and optimizing EV fleet deployment since 2007 – recently released a sneak peak of its Truth About Electric Vehicles (EVs) in Cold Weather study based on its real world usage of a number of electric cars in cold climes.

The numbers are not pretty. According to Erik Mallia, the company’s strategic development manager, the EVs in Fleetcarma’s fleet — Nissan Leaf, Mitsubishi i-MiEV and Ford Transit Connect EV — started displaying greatly reduced range when the outside temperature dropped below about 3 degrees Celsius. By the time the mercury hit -10C, all three vehicles’ had dropped below half of their advertised/EPA-designated maximum range. In their worst performance, for instance, Nissan’s Leaf ran out of electrons in just 51 kilometres and the Transit Connect in 40. And that’s at -10, not the 20 or 25 below that has been common across eastern Canada since Christmas, Fleetcarma’s information suggesting that EV range prohibitively “drops of a cliff” somewhere around the -5C mark.

(In other words- my early post about the probable LARGE number of electric vehicles STALLED on Toronto streets when bad weather jams traffic and drivers fail to compensate for failing battery range in the cold WAS OPTIMISTIC! Even the latest models of electric cars DO WORSE than I expected! A FIFTY PERCENT DROP IN RANGE just as soon as a relatively mild Toronto winter appears? These LIE-beral electric pull toys will NOT be showing up in Sudbury or even in Muskoka any time soon! Electric cars are just a vastly costly frill for LIE-berals to play with- at OUR expense!)

1101 s mitsuimiev Motor Mouth: The inconvenient truth about EVs in cold weather

Mitsubishi i-MiEV

More interesting is that, according to Matt Stevens, CEO of Fleetcarma’s parent company and a PHD in powertrain design, while both gasoline and electric powertrains face similar degradation in performance in cold weather, the reason for the EV’s substantially worse cold weather comportment – cue images of Roy shivering in the Model 3 – is down to heating the cabin. Stevens says this is one area where the internal combustion engine’s inherent inefficiency is beneficial. “The silver lining of the very inefficient gas engine,” he adds, “is that, since it gives off a whole lot of waste heat, you effectively get cabin heat for free.”

(Oh- so this is like the LIE-beral insistence that we surrender our cheap incandescent light bulbs that also throw off heat in cold weather thus warming our houses a little and replace them with those mouldy “green” bulbs- beloved of LIE-berals and that idiot Suzuki- that don’t last near as long as advertised and which contain mercury which means that every one that is disposed of in regular trash- meaning virtually ALL of them- are contaminating the environment with mercury! Even worse the damned costly things do not throw out as much light as incandescent bulbs- meaning you are hooking up EXTRA not so green bulbs as compensation for lower light levels!)

In fact, Fleetcarma’s data seems to suggest that a Mitsubishi i-MiEV heater on full blow — such as when crossing the U.S. in a cold snap — can use between 1.5 and 4.5 kilowatts, about two to six horsepower. Typically, small cars require less than 15 horsepower to cruise at 100 kilometres an hour on a flat road: If Fleetcarma’s numbers are correct, it suggests that an EV’s heater on full blast – as Roy may have done had he not been worried about range– uses anywhere from 20 to 40 per cent as much power as propelling the automobile.

While none of this probably affects urban use, it does put a dent in the argument that EV range will soon become so prodigious that charging stations won’t be required on our highways. Even if future Tesla, Porsche and BMW EVs boast ranges of 600 kilometres and more, a Canadian — or, this year, an American — January could easily halve that. That means the inter-city infrastructure charging problem Motor Mouth’s Inconvenient Truth series has been proposing still needs to be reconciled. By not addressing this issue (yet, again, finding more than 1,600 words to address a simple interface issue) Roy did a disservice to the very cause he seeks to champion, namely that electric cars are ready for prime time.

(And as always, LIE-berals have a SELF SERVING scheme for every occasion- they have already made noises about supplying free or very cheap recharging at govt buildings! How long before electric car makers start offering fleet purchase prices to civil service unions- with LIE-beral approval- and how long before getting your EV car- bought with MASSIVE govt grants- charged for FREE at your govt job as yet another perk of office for gravy train riding Hogs? Who would not want to travel in a HEAVILY govt subsidized machine and regularly REFUEL FREE like that?)













 
Hoid
#5
I know in sustained 40 below weather internal combustion engine do not work very well. If you shut them off in leave them outside they are toast.

It is not uncommon for a truck in the far north to run for the entire winter.
 
spilledthebeer
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by Hoid View Post

I know in sustained 40 below weather internal combustion engine do not work very well. If you shut them off in leave them outside they are toast.

It is not uncommon for a truck in the far north to run for the entire winter.

And you think that sustained 40 below weather in a few ISOLATED northern Cdn communities is justification for BANKRUPTING all of southern Canada to build a USELESS FAKE INDUSTRY AROUND ELECTRIC TOY CARS?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! The morbid LIE-beral obsession with electric TOYS is proof of how much gravy they expect to skim off the top of the artificial industry they are willing to bankrupt us in order to create! And let me refresh your memory here- electric cars suffer crippling loss of power and range before we reach freezing temperatures!

Here is an article I spotted on the MSN.ca home page and it illustrates what is wrong with LIE-beral policy related to electric cars. With some comments of my own in brackets):

Motor Mouth: The inconvenient truth about EVs in cold weather

Tesla’s Model 3 passengers need a “blankie” to complete its record-breaking cross-country Cannonball Run

By David Booth | January 26, 2018

So, a Tesla drove across the United States. That such a feat is no longer big news is testament to how far EVs have come and an indication electric vehicles are no longer limited to urban use.

What is newsworthy, however, is that Alex Roy, The Drive’s editor-at-large (and expert Cannonballer), along with the Model 3’s owner, Daniel Zorrilla, took but 50 hours, 16 minutes and 32 seconds to drive from Los Angeles to New York City, the quickest any car has ever travelled from U.S. coast to U.S. coast using electricity as its sole source of power.

This is not an accomplishment to be diminished. Ten years ago, such an expedition would have been measured in weeks, not hours. Even five years ago when Elon Musk began rolling out Superchargers across the land, criss-crossing the continent would have been all but unthinkable.

RELATED:

Motor Mouth: Holiday travel proves the fallacies of highway EV charging

Those who seek to diminish Roy and Zorrilla’s accomplishments by noting that the current Cannonball Run record is something less than 30 hours miss the point. Google calculates the 4,288 kilometre drive takes just a tad over 40 hours, which means Roy and Zorrilla spent only about 10 hours charging the Model 3 — not so long ago the time it would have taken for a single overnight charge of its (optional) 75 kilowatt-hour battery. It’s an impressive feat and proof of the progress in both EV technology and Tesla’s infrastructure development.

But does it mean — as is the subtext of virtually every story written about Roy’s trek — that EVs are ripe to supplant gasoline-fueled cars in the immediate future?

Uhm, not quite. You see, buried deep in Roy’s 4,345 word treatise on his adventure is the following little tidbit: “It’s too bad we kept the heat off for most of the drive.” Yes, in order to ensure they made it between Supercharger stations, Roy and Zorrilla drove through the worst weather much of the United States has seen in decades without the comfort of cabin heat. Indeed, both wore multiple layers of clothing, Zorrilla, according to Roy’s account, donning three layers of pants to stave off the frigid temperatures, while Roy himself had to buy a wool blanket halfway through the trip. That’s right, no heat in a US$55,000+ car that purports to play in the luxury segment.

RELATED

How It Works: Electric vehicle charging

Now Cannonballers past have made manifold sacrifices — ingesting massive amounts of caffeine, peeing in bottles and, even more gross, unless, of course, you’re the President of the United States, eating a steady diet of McDonald’s — in their pursuit of speed, but those compromises have always been to overcome human limitations, not compensate for the failing of the automobile. That Roy spends less than 50 words discussing the lack of cabin heat— with nothing remotely resembling a technical analysis of the energy used/saved and range extended by their plight — while devoting no less than 1,670 words to the Autopilot user interface (Roy actually spends more time stressing about the Model’s 3’s steering stalk than he does on the fact that he froze his ‘nads off for 50 straight hours speaks to someone deliberately not wanting to talk about an elephant in a room.

Here’s the discussion I think he was trying to avoid.

Fleetcarma.com – a website devoted to the adoption of plug-in electric vehicles and optimizing EV fleet deployment since 2007 – recently released a sneak peak of its Truth About Electric Vehicles (EVs) in Cold Weather study based on its real world usage of a number of electric cars in cold climes.

The numbers are not pretty. According to Erik Mallia, the company’s strategic development manager, the EVs in Fleetcarma’s fleet — Nissan Leaf, Mitsubishi i-MiEV and Ford Transit Connect EV — started displaying greatly reduced range when the outside temperature dropped below about 3 degrees Celsius. By the time the mercury hit -10C, all three vehicles’ had dropped below half of their advertised/EPA-designated maximum range. In their worst performance, for instance, Nissan’s Leaf ran out of electrons in just 51 kilometres and the Transit Connect in 40. And that’s at -10, not the 20 or 25 below that has been common across eastern Canada since Christmas, Fleetcarma’s information suggesting that EV range prohibitively “drops of a cliff” somewhere around the -5C mark.

(In other words- my early post about the probable LARGE number of electric vehicles STALLED on Toronto streets when bad weather jams traffic and drivers fail to compensate for failing battery range in the cold WAS OPTIMISTIC! Even the latest models of electric cars DO WORSE than I expected! A FIFTY PERCENT DROP IN RANGE just as soon as a relatively mild Toronto winter appears? These LIE-beral electric pull toys will NOT be showing up in Sudbury or even in Muskoka any time soon! Electric cars are just a vastly costly frill for LIE-berals to play with- at OUR expense!)

1101 s mitsuimiev Motor Mouth: The inconvenient truth about EVs in cold weather

Mitsubishi i-MiEV

More interesting is that, according to Matt Stevens, CEO of Fleetcarma’s parent company and a PHD in powertrain design, while both gasoline and electric powertrains face similar degradation in performance in cold weather, the reason for the EV’s substantially worse cold weather comportment – cue images of Roy shivering in the Model 3 – is down to heating the cabin. Stevens says this is one area where the internal combustion engine’s inherent inefficiency is beneficial. “The silver lining of the very inefficient gas engine,” he adds, “is that, since it gives off a whole lot of waste heat, you effectively get cabin heat for free.”

(Oh- so this is like the LIE-beral insistence that we surrender our cheap incandescent light bulbs that also throw off heat in cold weather thus warming our houses a little and replace them with those mouldy “green” bulbs- beloved of LIE-berals and that idiot Suzuki- that don’t last near as long as advertised and which contain mercury which means that every one that is disposed of in regular trash- meaning virtually ALL of them- are contaminating the environment with mercury! Even worse the damned costly things do not throw out as much light as incandescent bulbs- meaning you are hooking up EXTRA not so green bulbs as compensation for lower light levels!)

In fact, Fleetcarma’s data seems to suggest that a Mitsubishi i-MiEV heater on full blow — such as when crossing the U.S. in a cold snap — can use between 1.5 and 4.5 kilowatts, about two to six horsepower. Typically, small cars require less than 15 horsepower to cruise at 100 kilometres an hour on a flat road: If Fleetcarma’s numbers are correct, it suggests that an EV’s heater on full blast – as Roy may have done had he not been worried about range– uses anywhere from 20 to 40 per cent as much power as propelling the automobile.

While none of this probably affects urban use, it does put a dent in the argument that EV range will soon become so prodigious that charging stations won’t be required on our highways. Even if future Tesla, Porsche and BMW EVs boast ranges of 600 kilometres and more, a Canadian — or, this year, an American — January could easily halve that. That means the inter-city infrastructure charging problem Motor Mouth’s Inconvenient Truth series has been proposing still needs to be reconciled. By not addressing this issue (yet, again, finding more than 1,600 words to address a simple interface issue) Roy did a disservice to the very cause he seeks to champion, namely that electric cars are ready for prime time.

(And as always, LIE-berals have a SELF SERVING scheme for every occasion- they have already made noises about supplying free or very cheap recharging at govt buildings! How long before electric car makers start offering fleet purchase prices to civil service unions- with LIE-beral approval- and how long before getting your EV car- bought with MASSIVE govt grants- charged for FREE at your govt job as yet another perk of office for gravy train riding Hogs? Who would not want to travel in a HEAVILY govt subsidized machine and regularly REFUEL FREE like that?)
 
Cannuck
#7
Too long and boring to read
 
pgs
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by Cannuck View Post

Too long and boring to read

So go somewhere a little more mentally stimulating . Your local library will lend you their copy of Dick and Jane . I am sure you will find it much more suited to your vocabulary .
 
Cannuck
#9
*hug*
 
pgs
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by Cannuck View Post

*hug*

See , you just proved my point , now run along .
 
spilledthebeer
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by pgs View Post

See , you just proved my point , now run along .

Oh pity the poor LIE-berals as all their policies collapse into the dirt in disgrace! Its why they are so obsessed with talking about the allegedly wonderful future they claim their electric toys will bring us if only we will swallow our disgust and support LIE-berals one more time! All their past promises have been exposed as LIES so now they bait and switch and offer up this last delusional offer of electric toy cars- but the do NOT want to talk about the COST! LIE-berals are really only fixated on how much money they can skim off the electric car “business” that exists ONLY due to govt bribery! WE are NOT supposed to ask about all the previous LIE-beral messes such as:

Here is another article illustrating the troubling results of selfish LIE-beral policy. With some comments of my own in brackets):

Hydro customer debt and disconnections soar under Kathleen Wynne

By James Wallace. Published: December 22, 2017. Updated: December 22, 2017 6:54 PM EST

Filed Under: Toronto SUN/ Opinion/ Columnists

New numbers posted by the Ontario Energy Board paint a painful picture of how hydro customers have fared under Kathleen Wynne’s government.

During the past four years, under Wynne’s watch, there’s been a 19% increase in residential hydro disconnections, a 28% increase in arrears and a 40% increase in customer debt owed to provincial electricity distributors.

Over the same time period, those utilities saw just a 4% increase in new customers.

The numbers depressingly illustrate the degree to which Ontarians have increasingly struggled to pay their hydro bills.

They also nakedly expose the fact there’s nothing “fair” about the way the Liberals are treating hydro customers. That’s a political lie and a fiction perpetuated by a desperate government that’s resorted to marketing slogans in place of sound policy to address the mess they’ve made.

Here’s what the numbers show:

In 2013, Ontario electricity distributors cumulatively had 4,416,713 customers, a number that grew to almost 4,598,314 customers in 2016 — a 4% increase over four years;
The number of accounts disconnected for non-payment grew almost 19% from 49,130 to 58,286 over the same period;
The number of accounts in arrears increased 28% from 307,822 to 392,963;
And the amount of arrears debt owed by customers increased a staggering 40% from $96,461,640 to $134,885,199.

Clearly, a growing number of Ontarians struggled under the Wynne government to pay their hydro bills over that time.

“The numbers are quite staggering,” said PC energy critic Todd Smith. “Things are not getting better under the Liberals.”

(The problem is govt tax inflation- water rates up 9 percent unless its an election year when its ONLY 4 percent. Hydro rates doubled in 10 years- with only a 25 percent decrease this for this year only- with more price increases slated for after the 2018 election. With residential property taxes soaring as much as 25 percent and business taxes doubling or tripling in one year thanks to SCREWED UP market value assessment policy. LIE-berals drive up costs rapidly so they can buy civil service Hog votes- but our incomes do not rise nearly as fast as LIE-beral greed! LIE-berals buy votes and cling to power at any price!)

(It does not help that too many of us have been forced into retirement- taking the company buyout that is better than nothing- but that limited one time funding DOES NOT provide the sort of return on investment that can pay for LIE-beral GREED! We cannot afford LIE-beral policy that drives govt costs while we live on fixed incomes, frozen wages and reduced hours of work! LIE-berals have exactly the same set of vile values as the Pigs in the book Animal Farm!)

In fact, he said, former Ontario Auditor General Jim McCarter predicted with “Kreskin-like” accuracy, back in 2011, that this would happen.

At the time, McCarter raised red flags over the Liberal government’s decision to spend billions of dollars on wind and solar power projects without proper oversight.

“While this helped these projects get off the ground quickly, their high cost will add significantly to ratepayers’ electricity bills in the future,” McCarter predicted at the time, a suggestion the Liberals scoffed at.

The consequence, over the past four years, has been escalating hydro bill problems for consumers rooted in a flawed, mismanaged and ideological Liberal government plan that wasted billions of dollars promoting and overpaying for unneeded green energy.

(In another act of insane greed Hydro One wants us to “pre-pay” for electricity!)

Hydro One makes pitch for pre-paid electricity meters
GOLDSTEIN: Hydro One sale toxic for Wynne
Libs killing business one kilowatt at a time

And although the Liberals have introduced plans to limit disconnections and reduce rates by 25%, the reduction is temporary, will cost future customers $4 billion and rates are poised to skyrocket after the 2018 election. It does nothing to address growing consumer debt.

“Unless something is done to actually lower the cost to generate and produce electricity in three to four years you’re going see these numbers spike again,” Smith said.

(What Smith and others are telling us is that LIE-beral greed is creating a two level economy like something out of a sci fi novel- where a privileged few live well and others- the deprived “Morlocks” starve in the dark!)

The real-world consequence is that families across the province are struggling with record debt and growing difficulty paying their bills, said Nipissing Conservative MP Vic Fedeli.

(With LIE-berals importing tens of thousands of Muslims with multiple children they cannot pay for and with more teeming thousands of illegals coming her at LIE-beral invitation and this muddled immigration will suck govt revenue like DRACULA!)

Fedeli said families are in his northern constituency office on an almost daily basis looking for help to deal with hydro bills.

“Here we are a couple of days before Christmas and we’ve got people in here,” Fedeli said. “We have families who absolutely have to decide whether they can heat or eat.”

“That’s real,” he said. “This falls directly at the feet of Kathleen Wynne and the Liberal government of Ontario.”

A request for comment from Energy Minister Glenn Thibeault’s office was referred to Hydro One.

Meanwhile, the Liberals continue to pump out “Fair Hydro Plan” propaganda suggesting they actually have a plan.

(LIE-berals do have a plan- anybody who cannot pay to live in THEIR Ontari-owe can LEAVE!)

“Ontario is lowering electricity bills for all residential customers as part of a significant system restructuring that will address long-standing policy challenges and ensure greater fairness,” says a current post on the Thibeault’s Energy Ministry’s website under the title “Ontario is cutting electricity bills.”

For many Ontario families this holiday season, it sure as hell doesn’t seem that way.

jawallace at postmedia
 

Similar Threads

3
Electric cars
by Sustainability | Mar 12th, 2009
10
Federal gov't stop electric cars
by dumpthemonarchy | May 13th, 2008
0
State Grid develops electric cars
by Libra Girl | May 10th, 2007