Chavez: Here Comes Socialism


I think not
#1
Chavez to nationalize telecom, utilities
Venezuelan leader takes steps to making nation socialist; oil may be next

The Associated Press
Updated: 7:51 p.m. ET Jan 8, 2007


CARACAS, Venezuela - President Hugo Chavez announced plans Monday to nationalize Venezuela’s electrical and telecommunications companies, pledging to create a socialist state in a bold move with echoes of Fidel Castro’s Cuban revolution.

“We’re moving toward a socialist republic of Venezuela, and that requires a deep reform of our national constitution,” Chavez said in a televised address after swearing in his new Cabinet. “We are in an existential moment of Venezuelan life. We’re heading toward socialism, and nothing and no one can prevent it.”

Chavez, who will be sworn in Wednesday to a third term that runs through 2013, also said he wanted a constitutional amendment to eliminate the autonomy of the Central Bank and would soon ask the National Assembly, solidly controlled by his allies, to give him greater powers to legislate by presidential decree.
The nationalization appeared likely to affect Electricidad de Caracas, owned by Arlington, Va.-based AES Corp., and C.A. Nacional Telefonos de Venezuela, known as CANTV, the country’s largest publicly traded company.

“All of that which was privatized, let it be nationalized,” Chavez said, referring to “all of those sectors in an area so important and strategic for all of us as is electricity.” “The nation should recover its ownership of strategic sectors,” he said. Before Chavez was re-elected by a wide margin last month, he promised to take a more radical turn toward socialism.

Chavez said that lucrative oil projects in the Orinoco River basin involving foreign oil companies should be under national ownership. He didn’t spell out whether that meant a complete nationalization, but said any vestiges of private control over the energy sector should be undone.

Oil ‘should become property of the nation’
“I’m referring to how international companies have control and power over all those processes of improving the heavy crudes of the Orinoco belt — no — that should become the property of the nation,” Chavez said.

In the oil sector, it didn’t appear Chavez was ruling out all private investment. Since last year, his government has sought to form state-controlled “mixed companies” with British Petroleum PLC, Exxon Mobil Corp., Chevron Corp., ConocoPhillips Co., Total SA and Statoil ASA to upgrade heavy crude in the Orinoco. Such joint ventures have already been formed in other parts of the country.

Chavez threatened last August to nationalize CANTV, a Caracas-based former state firm that was privatized in 1991, unless it adjusted its pension payments to current minimum-wage levels, which have been repeatedly increased by his government.

After Chavez’s announcement on Monday, American Depositary Receipts of CANTV immediately plunged 14.2 percent on the New York Stock Exchange to $16.84 before the exchange halted trading. An NYSE spokesman said it was unknown when trading might resume for CANTV, the only Venezuelan company listed on the Big Board.

Wall Street investors
Investors with sizable holdings in CANTV’s ADRs include some well-known names on Wall Street, including Deutsche Bank Securities Inc., UBS Securities LLC and Morgan Stanley & Co. But the biggest shareholder, according to Thomson Financial, appears to be Brandes Investment Partners LP, an investment advisory company in California. Also holding a noteworthy stake is Julius Baer Investment Management LLC, a Swiss investment manager.

Chavez’s nationalization announcement came in his first speech of the year, a fiery address in which he used a vulgar word roughly meaning “idiot” to refer to Organization of American States Secretary-General Jose Miguel Insulza.

Chavez lashed out at Insulza for questioning his government’s decision not to renew the license of an opposition-aligned TV station.

“Dr. Insulza is quite an idiot, a true idiot,” Chavez said. “The insipid Dr. Insulza should resign from the secretariat of the Organization of American States for daring to play that role.”

Following Cuba's lead
Cuba nationalized major industries shortly after Castro came to power in 1959, and Bolivia’s Evo Morales moved to nationalize key sectors after taking office last year. The two countries are Chavez’s closest allies in Latin America, where many leftists have come to power in recent years.

On Wednesday — hours after Chavez is sworn in for another term — former revolutionary Daniel Ortega returns to the presidency in Nicaragua.

In Managua, Venezuelan Ambassador Miguel Gomez indicated Monday that the two countries planned to work closely together, and said Nicaragua could eventually become Venezuela’s top aid recipient — getting even more help than Cuba and Bolivia, which benefit heavily from Venezuela’s petro-diplomacy.
The United States remains the top buyer of Venezuelan oil, which provides Chavez billions of dollars for social programs aimed at helping the poor in countries around the region.

Gomez said Chavez and Ortega planned to sign an agreement on Thursday providing Nicaragua with resources — he described them as loans — for infrastructure, health, education, agricultural development and the construction of 200,000 houses, as well as energy and debt forgiveness.

URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16530241/
 
L Gilbert
No Party Affiliation
#2
Ah, socialism, where a totalitarian gov't takes care of all the needs of its extremely poor people and also the extremely few rich people at the top - http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx...esto/index.htm
 
Logic 7
#3
Quote: Originally Posted by I think not View Post

Chavez to nationalize telecom, utilities
Venezuelan leader takes steps to making nation socialist; oil may be next

The Associated Press
Updated: 7:51 p.m. ET Jan 8, 2007


CARACAS, Venezuela - President Hugo Chavez announced plans Monday to nationalize Venezuela’s electrical and telecommunications companies, pledging to create a socialist state in a bold move with echoes of Fidel Castro’s Cuban revolution.

“We’re moving toward a socialist republic of Venezuela, and that requires a deep reform of our national constitution,” Chavez said in a televised address after swearing in his new Cabinet. “We are in an existential moment of Venezuelan life. We’re heading toward socialism, and nothing and no one can prevent it.”

Chavez, who will be sworn in Wednesday to a third term that runs through 2013, also said he wanted a constitutional amendment to eliminate the autonomy of the Central Bank and would soon ask the National Assembly, solidly controlled by his allies, to give him greater powers to legislate by presidential decree.
The nationalization appeared likely to affect Electricidad de Caracas, owned by Arlington, Va.-based AES Corp., and C.A. Nacional Telefonos de Venezuela, known as CANTV, the country’s largest publicly traded company.


URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16530241/



You can barble what you want, but chavez is the best leaders in the world right now, what he has done for the poor peoples, is something that will never be done by western puppets.
 
Colpy
Conservative
#4
Quote: Originally Posted by Logic 7 View Post

You can barble what you want, but chavez is the best leaders in the world right now, what he has done for the poor peoples, is something that will never be done by western puppets.

Quote:

Chavez, who will be sworn in Wednesday to a third term that runs through 2013, also said he wanted a constitutional amendment ................ to give him greater powers to legislate by presidential decree.

Yep, that's the action of a man of the people........yank their power away and hold for yourself. Cahavez is a great man of the people.......if you like Lenin, Castro, Mao, etc.
 
earth_as_one
#5
You are confusing communist dictators with a democratic socialist. Socialist Chavez was democratically elected and re-elected by free and fair elections. Venezuelans have a right to choose their leader and run their country the way they want. None of these other leaders you reference were ever democratically elected in free and fair elections.

Also compare Venezuela's electoral system with the US system. Bush lost the popular vote the first time around, but was appointed President by Republicans serving on the Florida Supreme court when a Florida recount began to look like a Gore win. Was that an example of democracy? Not only haven't the flaws in the American electoral system been corrected, but most Americans vote by casting their ballot electronically on machines manufactured by one of two companies, both of which are run by people who openly support Republicans. At the end of the day, these voting machines generate numbers which cannot be verified or audited. Does that sound free or fair?

http://www.nightweed.com/usavotefacts.html

Unlike the US, Venezuela has no intention of invading other countries based on false allegations of possession of WMDs or links to terrorism, in order to seize control of their oil wealth. That would be an example of American Capitalism under Bush. This form of capitalism starts wars, kills innocent civilians, increases the American debt and generates millions for Bush's supporters.

I don't have any problem with the Venezuelan government taking control of Venezuela's oil wealth, its banks and other critical businesses and industries... as long as it uses legal means. That means fairly compensating present shareholders. Its unclear if that is Chavez's intention.

Quote:

...
"Not clear at this point is whether Chavez intends to offer stockholders in these companies any compensation," wrote Parrella. "We view this as a very serious announcement and not a trial balloon."
The fact that the minority stake in EDC is owned by a diverse spate of shareholders could help AES's position, the analyst noted. The unit is a significant earnings contributor and dividend payer for AES, she added. She has a "Neutral" rating on shares.
Citigroup analyst Brian Chin in a client note kept a "Hold" rating and $23 target price.
"We believe President Chavez' comments should be considered against the somewhat flamboyant and exaggerated nature of his public persona," wrote Chin. "The likelihood that there are no well thought-of initiatives, however, does not imply that proposals will not be pushed forward."

http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/pro...109&ID=6327040

 
BitWhys
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_one View Post

...I don't have any problem with the Venezuelan government taking control of Venezuela's oil wealth, its banks and other critical businesses and industries... as long as it uses legal means. That means fairly compensating present shareholders. Its unclear if that is Chavez's intention.
...

Offers of compensation didn't stop Operation Ajax from happening, but that was a long time ago. This could get interesting.
 
earth_as_one
#7
You mean like this:

Quote:

Venezuela coup linked to Bush team

April 21, 2002
The Observer

The failed coup in Venezuela was closely tied to senior officials in the US government, The Observer has established. They have long histories in the 'dirty wars' of the 1980s, and links to death squads working in Central America at that time...


...The visits by Venezuelans plotting a coup, including Carmona himself, began, say sources, 'several months ago', and continued until weeks before the putsch last weekend. The visitors were received at the White House by the man President George Bush tasked to be his key policy-maker for Latin America, Otto Reich. Reich is a right-wing Cuban-American who, under Reagan, ran the Office for Public Diplomacy. It reported in theory to the State Department, but Reich was shown by congressional investigations to report directly to Reagan's National Security Aide, Colonel Oliver North, in the White House....

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/inter...688071,00.html

 
BitWhys
#8
Let's just say that not that I'd know if it did, but I don't expect the price of cocaine to go up any time soon.
 
Logic 7
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by Colpy View Post

Yep, that's the action of a man of the people........yank their power away and hold for yourself. Cahavez is a great man of the people.......if you like Lenin, Castro, Mao, etc.


You can also barble as you want, but chavez is supported by 70% of his peoples, and most of them are poor,that is a fact.

Maybe for you it is time to start to dig to the bottom to know issues, don't let anyone dictates what you should think, and i think the fact that you thought iran threathen israel with nuclear weapons proved my point.
 
Colpy
Conservative
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by Logic 7 View Post

You can also barble as you want, but chavez is supported by 70% of his peoples, and most of them are poor,that is a fact.

Maybe for you it is time to start to dig to the bottom to know issues, don't let anyone dictates what you should think, and i think the fact that you thought iran threathen israel with nuclear weapons proved my point.

Not that logic has anything to do with your makeup......but how about an attempt at linear thought.....Iran has stated its wish that Israel be "wiped off the map", Iran supports the genocidal terrorists of Hezbollah, Iran is working to build nuclear weapons..........well, if you don't have the intellectual capacity to connect the dots..........

As for Chavez........I don't doubt he currently has the support of his people, and I don't doubt that part of the reason they have elected him as leader is an attempt to redress longstanding social ills caused by an unjust division of wealth in the nation.

However, why is a "democrat" seeking to "rule by decree", thus bypassing all democratic institutions? Unfortunately, the people of Venezula are about to learn that the cure is sometimes worse than the disease, IMHO.
 
BitWhys
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by Colpy View Post

...
However, why is a "democrat" seeking to "rule by decree", thus bypassing all democratic institutions? Unfortunately, the people of Venezula are about to learn that the cure is sometimes worse than the disease, IMHO.

It might not be all that much different from our own Orders-in-Council. Believe it or not the Governer General still has a role to play in keeping the Privy Council in line, not that they're likely to try push their luck. It probably has to do with Parliament not having to sweat the details once the overall plan is approved. We'll find out soon enough.
 
earth_as_one
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by BitWhys View Post

It might not be all that much different from our own Orders-in-Council. Believe it or not the Governer General still has a role to play in keeping the Privy Council in line, not that they're likely to try push their luck. It probably has to do with Parliament not having to sweat the details once the overall plan is approved. We'll find out soon enough.

Venezuelans would be well advised to be wary of granting their President more powers. Look how that's worked out in the US. The more executive powers concentrate, the more prone they are to abuse.
 
I think not
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_one View Post

Venezuelans would be well advised to be wary of granting their President more powers. Look how that's worked out in the US. The more executive powers concentrate, the more prone they are to abuse.

You forgot the smiley, you were joking weren't you? Because the alternative is jaw dropping.
 
Logic 7
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by Colpy View Post

Not that logic has anything to do with your makeup......but how about an attempt at linear thought.....Iran has stated its wish that Israel be "wiped off the map", Iran supports the genocidal terrorists of Hezbollah, Iran is working to build nuclear weapons..........well, if you don't have the intellectual capacity to connect the dots..........

As for Chavez........I don't doubt he currently has the support of his people, and I don't doubt that part of the reason they have elected him as leader is an attempt to redress longstanding social ills caused by an unjust division of wealth in the nation.

However, why is a "democrat" seeking to "rule by decree", thus bypassing all democratic institutions? Unfortunately, the people of Venezula are about to learn that the cure is sometimes worse than the disease, IMHO.


Hezbollah isnt a terrorist group and tell me where they have done a genocide?? the last war, they have killed 150 soldiers and 33 civilians, on the other hand, israel has killed about 150 hezbollah soldiers and 1500 civilians, and you tell me that hezbollah, who couldnt even invade canada, could do a genocide??


And i am sorry, chavez so far , is the best leader in the world, the only who has guts, and nuts , something that the west lost since ww1.
 
earth_as_one
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by I think not View Post

You forgot the smiley, you were joking weren't you? Because the alternative is jaw dropping.

No I wasn't joking. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

The US would be far better off if their President didn't have so much power.

The American constitution intended that power would be divided more or less equally among the House, Senate and President. That way, no single entity could abuse their authority. It was a good system and kept the US out of trouble for most of its history. Its only after Presidents became too powerful that Americans began finding themselves in places like Vietnam and Iraq.

Another problem is media control. In the US, 95% of what Americans see and hear on television, movies and the radio are controlled by 3 large corporations. That makes people easy to herd. Given the support of these corporations, even a clown could become US President.

In Russia, Putin controls the media. That's also a problem.

Control what people know and you control what they think.

Venezuela in theory has a free press.

HRW
Quote:

Venezuela: Limit State Control of Media
Letter to President Chavez Washington, July 1, 2003
http://hrw.org/press/2003/06/venezuela062303-ltr.htm

 
I think not
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_one View Post

No I wasn't joking. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Agreed....

Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_one View Post

The US would be far better off if their President didn't have so much power.

...which puzzles me why you would make a statement like this. If you know anything at all about the US political system and its constitutional framework you wouldn't be making such statements. For the purpose of comparison, the Prime Minister of Canada is next to a dictator compared to the US President.

Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_one View Post

The American constitution intended that power would be divided more or less equally among the House, Senate and President. That way, no single entity could abuse their authority. It was a good system and kept the US out of trouble for most of its history. Its only after Presidents became too powerful that Americans began finding themselves in places like Vietnam and Iraq.

Why are you using the past tense? The United States Constitution treats all branches of government like they were children. One crying at the other and nothing they can do about it. NOTHING has changed in the Constitution that gives the President broad powers, NOTHING.

Take the Patriot Act for example. The Supreme Court has struck down provisions of the Patriot Act that were deemed unconstitutional. The President can't even appoint his own cabinet without the Senate approving. So where is all this power you keep talking about?

Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_one View Post

Another problem is media control. In the US, 95% of what Americans see and hear on television, movies and the radio are controlled by 3 large corporations. That makes people easy to herd. Given the support of these corporations, even a clown could become US President.

As opposed to everything being state sponsored you mean? Besides when corporations get too powerful they are forced to breakdown into smaller entities. Can you do that with the state? No.

Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_one View Post

Venezuela in theory has a free press.

That summed it up nicely.
 
Colpy
Conservative
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by BitWhys View Post

It might not be all that much different from our own Orders-in-Council. Believe it or not the Governer General still has a role to play in keeping the Privy Council in line, not that they're likely to try push their luck. It probably has to do with Parliament not having to sweat the details once the overall plan is approved. We'll find out soon enough.

One of the reasons I am no fan of that arsehole Trudeau is that he usede the OIC so much to legislate, thus by-passing Parliament, that what was meant to be an emergency-only power is now a normal (and undemocratic) tool of government.

But the OIC stops well short of "rule by decree", at least in theory.
 
L Gilbert
No Party Affiliation
#18
Actually the line is. "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. "
Lord Acton , Letter to Bishop Mandell Creighton, 1887.

At any rate, if you people think Chavez is some sorta saint out for the good of his people, you're incredibly deluded. He's most likely a power-hungry communist. In fact, he thinks very highly of Castro.

Anyway,
Quote:

In 2000, Chávez won office under the new constitution. Despite his populist rhetoric, many expressed fears that he was exhibiting the distinctively dictatorial signs of the classic Latin American military strongman, the caudillo . Although he retains strong support among the lower classes, opposition to his rule increased, and strikes and demonstrations sparked by his attempts to assert control over the state oil company led to a short-lived coup in Apr., 2002, and a prolonged strike by oil workers late in 2002. An attempt by the opposition to recall him through a referendum (Aug., 2004) resulted in a solid vote for Chávez. Internationally he has called for Latin American nations to forge closer ties and achieve greater regional integration, and to be less dependent on the United States, but his outspokenness and support for potential political allies in other countries has led a number of Latin American nations to accuse him of meddling in their internal affairs.

- http://www.answers.com/topic/hugo-ch-vez

Some saint.
 
EagleSmack
#19
The bottom line is this folks... Chavez is Anti-American and that is A-OK by some folks regardless of how many private companies he seizes, and regardless of how many civil rights he squashes and takes away.

As long as he speaks out against America he should be fine no matter what.

Chavez is turning out to be a typical Latin American Dictator even if he now wears his sash on his left shoulder. He is extending his executive powers and increasing government control over more and more. The oil will only carry him so far and when his people remain poor they will start speaking out. That is when the army will come in to squash the so called "PRO AMERICAN" trouble makers.

Mark it.
 
L Gilbert
No Party Affiliation
#20
I have no problem with people being anti-whatever, AAMOF, I think being cynical of politicians in general is a good thing, but just because president so-and-so or prime minister whatsisname are anti-American doesn't make them saints. (Ayatollah Khomeini and Jean ChRETIeN, for instance)
 
EagleSmack
#21
LG I couldn't agree with you more. But to some of these folks Chavez is the Beacon of Light.

The guy is a thug.

The Greatest Leader in the World today! C'mon... have these folks truly lost their minds? What makes him a great leader... because he hates the USA?!

I disdain most politicians, both dems and the GOP. The GOP got their butts kicked out of the house and they DESERVED it. They did nothing in the past few years.

Now the "dog has caught the car" and he might not know what to do with it.
 
earth_as_one
#22
Actually I believe Chavez's popular support increased in the last election.

If Americans don't like Chavez then they don't have to vote for him.
 
gopher
No Party Affiliation
+1
#23  Top Rated Post
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_one View Post

Actually I believe Chavez's popular support increased in the last election.

If Americans don't like Chavez then they don't have to vote for him.


Chavez may not be an angel but he has majority support in his country. What he chooses to do there with the knowledge and consent of his populace is his and their business. Not ours.
 
L Gilbert
No Party Affiliation
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by EagleSmack View Post

LG I couldn't agree with you more. But to some of these folks Chavez is the Beacon of Light.

Hitler was thought of that way by some.
Quote:

The guy is a thug.

A power hungry one, at that.

Quote:

The Greatest Leader in the World today! C'mon... have these folks truly lost their minds? What makes him a great leader... because he hates the USA?!

Apparently that's enough of a reason for some.
 
L Gilbert
No Party Affiliation
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_one View Post

Actually I believe Chavez's popular support increased in the last election.

If Americans don't like Chavez then they don't have to vote for him.

Hitler was popular, too.
 
L Gilbert
No Party Affiliation
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by gopher View Post

Chavez may not be an angel but he has majority support in his country. What he chooses to do there with the knowledge and consent of his populace is his and their business. Not ours.

So why this conversation?
 
earth_as_one
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by EagleSmack View Post

The bottom line is this folks... Chavez is Anti-American and that is A-OK by some folks regardless of how many private companies he seizes, and regardless of how many civil rights he squashes and takes away.

As long as he speaks out against America he should be fine no matter what.

Chavez is turning out to be a typical Latin American Dictator even if he now wears his sash on his left shoulder. He is extending his executive powers and increasing government control over more and more. The oil will only carry him so far and when his people remain poor they will start speaking out. That is when the army will come in to squash the so called "PRO AMERICAN" trouble makers.

Mark it.

If Chavez is anti-American, then explain this:

Quote:

Chavez Boosts Heating Oil Program for U.S. Poor; Goes After Bush Again
By IAN JAMES
Associated Press
Thursday, September 21, 2006


...Chavez also called Bush's policies in Iraq criminal, adding he hopes Americans will before long "awaken" and elect a better president. The Venezuelan said that while he opposes Bush, the American people "are our friends."...

...Chavez also announced that Citgo, the U.S.-based refining arm of Venezuela's state-run oil company, plans to more than double the amount of heating oil it is making available under the program to 100 million gallons this winter, up from 40 million gallons.

He said the oil will reach people in 18 states...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...092101163.html

The above doesn't seem like the actions of someone who is anti-American. Sounds more like he is anti-American foreign policy.

As far as I know Chavez hasn't "seized" any corporations yet. Its more likely that Chavez intends to buy control of corporations.
 
earth_as_one
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by L Gilbert View Post

Hitler was popular, too.

So were Nelson Mandela and Ghandi.

Chavez doesn't resemble any of these leaders.
 
thomaska
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_one View Post

If Chavez is anti-American, then explain this:



The above doesn't seem like the actions of someone who is anti-American. Sounds more like he is anti-American foreign policy.

As far as I know Chavez hasn't "seized" any corporations yet. Its more likely that Chavez intends to buy control of corporations.

Are you kidding? You actually need someone to explain what Chavez is doing by trying to pimp out his oil?

He made the same offer to the Alaskans and they told him he could use the oil to lube his head so that it might easily get into his own posterior.

He's no better or smarter than Iran's Imadinnerjacket for trying to appeal to the "noble" American people. If they were smart they would know that you can't come to New York and blast AMERICA, then expect us to just shrug our shoulders and say,(Gomer Pylesque)"Gollygee!He shore is a smart fella!" Their speeches are eloquent to be sure. I'm sure they rank right up there with the best of speeches given by Hitler, Pol Pot, and other world ruler wanna-be's.

Unfortunately for them, it takes more than pretty words and meaningless handouts to pull one over on the people running the U.S.

Tell me, will universal health care cover the bullet wound to the back of a dissenters head when he speaks out against something he doesn't like about a totalitarian Socialist government?
 
EagleSmack
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_one View Post

If Chavez is anti-American, then explain this:



The above doesn't seem like the actions of someone who is anti-American. Sounds more like he is anti-American foreign policy.

As far as I know Chavez hasn't "seized" any corporations yet. Its more likely that Chavez intends to buy control of corporations.

That is just a token hand out to garner support and attack the US Govt. He hates the USA. Whenever you have freaks like Belefonte and Danny Glover and the rest of the Hollywood elite fawning over you... you have reached the ZENIETH of hatred of the US.

Chavez buy out private owned businesses! Don't make me laugh. He has already seized cattle farms and certain businesses from people in the name of Socialism. He plans to do more. Those are his words. He will take businesses as it will promote his policies which includes taking more power from the people and putting it in his hands.
 

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