Must Natives pay Taxes?


CDNBear
#1
Before you get out hit the yes button, please read the post.


It depends. There are some situations in which Registered Indians do not pay taxes. Under sections 87 and 90 of the Indian Act, Registered Indians do not pay federal or provincial taxes on their personal and real property that is on a reserve. Personal property includes goods, services and income consistent with Canada Customs and Revenue Agency (CCRA) policies.

* In this document, when the term "First Nation" is used in the context of the Indian Act, it refers to an Indian Actband.

Since income is personal property, as a Registered (or entitled-to-be-registered) Indian, you may also be exempt from paying income tax on income earned on a reserve. For example, Registered Indians who work on a reserve do not pay federal or provincial taxes on their employment income. See the CCRA's June 1994 guidelines of "Indian Exemption on Employment Income."

Registered Indians do not pay federal or provincial sales taxes on personal and real property on a reserve. The federal Goods and Services Tax (GST) does not apply to on-reserve goods or to those goods acquired by a Registered Indian off-reserve, if the goods are delivered to a reserve by the vendor or the vendor's agent. Most provincial sales taxes are applied in a similar fashion. Special provincial rules may apply to items such as automobiles and alcohol. For example, in some provinces, an automobile must be registered to a reserve address to be tax exempt. For more information, contact the relevant provincial tax authorities.

I hope this dispells some of the myths and misconceptions.

I pay hefty taxes, both personal and business. So I can attest to the vaidity of this information. There are however loops and ways to make end runs around these laws, and yes I have been party to them. But I would assert that I likely pay higher income taxes then most of the residents of my neighbourhood or this forum, so I do not feel bad about that. In part because there are services and exemptions that I can not aquire, due to my living and business arrangements as well as personal choices, ie: I refuse to be a "gimme gimme gimme" Indian(note, the term Indian in this case is being used derogatorally, and is in no way the correct use of the word). So I have made use of some things in an, albeit serrupticious way, attempt to balance out what I see as fair way. Take that as you wish.
 
Kreskin
#2
That's a great point Bear. I use to do mortgages on and off reserve for people with Indian Status and it was not lost on me that when reviewing their tax returns that only income earned on reserve was income tax free. While some receive their income in this way in my experience most don't seem to. They pay tax like anyone else.
 
kellystone
#3
everyone should pay taxes no matter what culture or race they are
 
CDNBear
#4
Quote: Originally Posted by kellystone View Post

everyone should pay taxes no matter what culture or race they are

But the Government of the time gave that benefit to the Native peoples for the acquisition of the land that would become Canada today.

So if you wish to recind that treaty right, would you be willing to return the land and consessions that we gave up for it?

What if that is the land under your home?

Or would you like to just summarily end the tax exempt status of the Native Peoples illegally?
 
kellystone
#5
Yes but the law at that time also encouraged flogging. Times change and everyone has to change with them!
 
CDNBear
#6
Not a problem.

So how would you answer the other questions then?

Seeing as you are asking to nullify the treaties, something a kin to buyers remorse, you would have to return, what you no longer want to pay for.

You can not buy a car and change your mind about paying for it, the same rule of law applies here.
 
Sassylassie
#7
If the Government spent less time trying to screw the Natives out of their Treaty Rights and more time settling disputes we'd all be richer for the effort.

Note to Bear, I read a ruling in the paper yesterday that stated the Natives have the "Legal" right to log Crown Land. Did you see it?
 
kellystone
#8
I would indeed scrap the treaty and treat everyone equally. If you can afford to buy the land then please do and if you can't then you are not going to get it for free. We don't owe natives anything and they as well do not owe us anything. How successful you are in life determines what you get out of it.
 
Sassylassie
#9
Poppy cock, a Treaty is a Legally binding agreement between the Natives and the Government and frankly if more people would educate themselves on what a treaty is they wouldn't make blanket statements about the Natives.
 
CDNBear
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by kellystone View Post

I would indeed scrap the treaty and treat everyone equally. If you can afford to buy the land then please do and if you can't then you are not going to get it for free. We don't owe natives anything and they as well do not owe us anything. How successful you are in life determines what you get out of it.

Unfortunetly that just is not how it works, and is quite unrational.

Do you regularly purchase things then stop payment on them?

Thanx Sass, you beat me to the punch,lol.
 
earth_as_one
#11
New laws do not supercede old treaties, unless they specifically say so. Most First Nations signed treaties with Canada, The United Kingdom, France, These United States.... When Canada became a Dominion, it was obligate to respect previous treaties with many nations including First Nations.

Unless the Canadian government passes new laws specifically altering existing treaties or negotiate new treaties with First Nations, existing treaties remain law. No one is above the law.

Since The Crown recognized many First Nations as Nations and negotiated treaties with these Nations, those Treaties and Recognitions supercede The Crown's recognition of Canada, as in Canada's legal right to existance....

Even those First Nations which did not sign treaties with recognized governments have a right to clarify their relationship with Canada. In theory they could legally declare independance unless they specifically agree to have Canadian citizenship.
 
Nikki
Free Thinker
#12
Just because the treaty exsists doesn't mean people can't disagree with it. Some people would like to see it thrown out. And so what? It's their opinon. So don't be so quick to jump on KellyStone. Especially you Bear considering you were just in another thread advocating laws should be changed regarding male rights and financial support.

Pesonally I am sick and tired of everyone on both sides. The government and the Natives.
 
CDNBear
#13
Yes you can dissagree with it, but in the case of kellystone, I was simply pointing out that the action suggested by him would be tantamount to theft by deception and I believe against international law at this point.

What exactly has you fed up with the Natives if I may ask honestly?
 
Nikki
Free Thinker
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBear View Post

Yes you can dissagree with it, but in the case of kellystone, I was simply pointing out that the action suggested by him would be tantamount to theft by deception and I believe against international law at this point.

What exactly has you fed up with the Natives if I may ask honestly?

I am sick and tired of every time I turn on a story they want more. For example last night I was watching CBC and a native person was bitching because she had to pay taxes on cigaretts she bought off the reserve. Give me a break. If you don't want to pay taxes then buy your cigaretts on the reserve don't go off the reserve buy them then bitch about it.

I am also sick and tired of hearing them complain about how poor they are and how hard done by they are. These people have been given every opportunity by the government to help themselves. they get education for nothing if they want (post secondary) they don't have to pay taxes etc. It's so annoying.

LRG is matiee (i know i spelled it wrong whatever) and he qualifies for a lot of extra stuff the government hands out. I have learned a fair amount since getting together with Rob and everyday I learn more and every day I get more angry with them.
 
earth_as_one
#15
Well Bear, that wouldn't be the first time one group of people used deception, military force, or other illegal means to take something which belonged to others.

Violating treaties would break international and Canadian law.

We can't just pick and choose which laws we want to follow. That would lead to chaos.
Last edited by earth_as_one; Dec 9th, 2006 at 06:46 PM..
 
CDNBear
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by Nikki View Post

I am sick and tired of every time I turn on a story they want more. For example last night I was watching CBC and a native person was bitching because she had to pay taxes on cigaretts she bought off the reserve. Give me a break. If you don't want to pay taxes then buy your cigaretts on the reserve don't go off the reserve buy them then bitch about it.

I am also sick and tired of hearing them complain about how poor they are and how hard done by they are. These people have been given every opportunity by the government to help themselves. they get education for nothing if they want (post secondary) they don't have to pay taxes etc. It's so annoying.

LRG is matiee (i know i spelled it wrong whatever) and he qualifies for a lot of extra stuff the government hands out. I have learned a fair amount since getting together with Rob and everyday I learn more and every day I get more angry with them.

Oh I can agree with you on some of your frustrations. I won't go into all the aspects of my activism within the Native community, but my position is about accountablity and responsablity. So your frusrtation is not lost on me.

Here is a little fiscal info if you would like though...
http://forums.canadiancontent.net/ca...imbalance.html

I'm not for increasing funding, I'm more for using monies already allocated better and with greater accountablity. But that should not override already standing treaties.
 
Nikki
Free Thinker
#17
Oh and to answer the original question. yes they should have to pay taxes. They should be treated just as everyone else is.

Just how i feel that in the USA blacks should stop sueing ancestors of people who had slaves that were their ancestors. to get rich.


Just how I feel that jewish lawyers should stop getting rich off the holocaust and reperation payments because again relatives of germans were Asshats.

I just think it is retarded that people must keep paying for things that they had nothing to do with.

And you say that "oh how would you like the government to give back the native land" why the hell would they do that?
 
Nikki
Free Thinker
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBear View Post

Oh I can agree with you on some of your frustrations. I won't go into all the aspects of my activism within the Native community, but my position is about accountablity and responsablity. So your frusrtation is not lost on me.

Here is a little fiscal info if you would like though...
http://forums.canadiancontent.net/ca...imbalance.html

I'm not for increasing funding, I'm more for using monies already allocated better and with greater accountablity. But that should not override already standing treaties.

The problem is that you can't help people that don't want to be helped.
 
selfactivated
#19
Let me start off by saying Im Native American, Cherokee/Chawktaw I have no rights because my Moms birth certificate was burned in a fire that consumed the res townhouse. It was my Mom's dream to be counted and she died uncounted.

That being said, I believe treties are treties and should be up heald. BUT I also think that after a peticular amount of time (say 100 years) Those treties should be rethought out. I also believe that new treties are unnessacary. Why? Becaause by this time ALL citizens should come under the same laws.

I talk a great deal about their being no borders. I believe that is only going to be acheived by getting rid of the boarders within the boarders. Im not sure that makes sense. If we separate each other within the countrys how can we desegrigate to bring world unity? Indians of all nations should practice what their Shamans preach.
 
Nikki
Free Thinker
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by selfactivated View Post

Let me start off by saying Im Native American, Cherokee/Chawktaw I have no rights because my Moms birth certificate was burned in a fire that consumed the res townhouse.

Why can't you order a new one?? Also under canadian law you should be able to just show how far back it goes. so if you can prove your mom's mom (or dad whatever) was native you should be able to get your rights.
 
selfactivated
#21
Here you have to have the original birth certificate. She spent most of her grown up life trying to be certified.
 
earth_as_one
#22
Canada cannot legally require First Nations with treaty exemptions to pay taxes. But Canada is under no other obligations beyond treaty requirements.

Mohawks for example may have treaty rights which require the Canadian government to provide school teachers and nurses. Mohawks may have a legal right to raise a standing military. They certainly do have the right to move goods and services tax free between their territories in Canada and the US. At the time of that treaty, the British wanted Mohawk assistance putting down a terrorist revolt in their North American colonies. The Mohawks paid with blood to uphold their end of the treaty. We are obligated to hold up our end if even the terms are no longer convenient or make sense. Maybe our ancestors should have negotiated better.

But nothing in that treaty says Canada must provide social welfare or other forms of government assistance taken for granted by Canadian citizens. Clearly this relationship should be clarified by a new treaty.
 
L Gilbert
No Party Affiliation
#23
Perhaps if we all just quit paying taxes the debt clock would come to an abrupt (or otherwise) "urrrch". Perhaps quit paying just the politicians' and bureaucrats' portions of the taxes?
 
CDNBear
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by Nikki View Post

And you say that "oh how would you like the government to give back the native land" why the hell would they do that?

So you are another one that would prefer to keep the land and consessions, and remove payment?

They would have to morally do that, if they wished to exit the treaty.

Quote: Originally Posted by Nikki View Post

The problem is that you can't help people that don't want to be helped.

I try to be more optomistic then that, but I do have a headache.

Quote: Originally Posted by selfactivated View Post

Let me start off by saying Im Native American, Cherokee/Chawktaw I have no rights because my Moms birth certificate was burned in a fire that consumed the res townhouse. It was my Mom's dream to be counted and she died uncounted.

That being said, I believe treties are treties and should be up heald. BUT I also think that after a peticular amount of time (say 100 years) Those treties should be rethought out. I also believe that new treties are unnessacary. Why? Becaause by this time ALL citizens should come under the same laws.

I talk a great deal about their being no borders. I believe that is only going to be acheived by getting rid of the boarders within the boarders. Im not sure that makes sense. If we separate each other within the countrys how can we desegrigate to bring world unity? Indians of all nations should practice what their Shamans preach.

self, I know some of the teachings of the Old ones, I have heard their words and seen the Great Spirit. I had my quest and know the Old ones, do not lie. But I do not believe the peace they preach, is about letting the Europeans of the hook for the treaties they signed and summariy broke or wish to break.

Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_one View Post

Canada cannot legally require First Nations with treaty exemptions to pay taxes. But Canada is under no other obligations beyond treaty requirements.

Mohawks for example may have treaty rights which require the Canadian government to provide school teachers and nurses. Mohawks may have a legal right to raise a standing military. They certainly do have the right to move goods and services tax free between their territories in Canada and the US. At the time of that treaty, the British wanted Mohawk assistance putting down a terrorist revolt in their North American colonies. The Mohawks paid with blood to uphold their end of the treaty. We are obligated to hold up our end if even the terms are no longer convenient or make sense. Maybe our ancestors should have negotiated better.

But nothing in that treaty says Canada must provide social welfare or other forms of government assistance taken for granted by Canadian citizens. Clearly this relationship should be clarified by a new treaty.

Can't argue with that, cept maybe you could stop calling the US terrorists, lol.

Quote: Originally Posted by L Gilbert View Post

Perhaps if we all just quit paying taxes the debt clock would come to an abrupt (or otherwise) "urrrch". Perhaps quit paying just the politicians' and bureaucrats' portions of the taxes?

Hm, I like this idea.
 
Vicious
#25
No taxation without representation. No representation without taxation.

If you don't pay taxes to your federal, provincial and municiple levels then you should not be allowed to vote. If you don't vote don't bitch that a particular layer of government isn't living up to their obligations. If all you vote in is first nations council elections then limit your bitching to that particular layer of government.
 
CDNBear
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by Vicious View Post

No taxation without representation. No representation without taxation.

If you don't pay taxes to your federal, provincial and municiple levels then you should not be allowed to vote. If you don't vote don't bitch that a particular layer of government isn't living up to their obligations. If all you vote in is first nations council elections then limit your bitching to that particular layer of government.

So living up to treaty obligations is out of the question then?
 
selfactivated
#27
I dont want to turn this into a Spiritual walk BUT if we dont walk the talk how on earth will we recieve the fruits of what we believe in?
 
CDNBear
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by selfactivated View Post

I dont want to turn this into a Spiritual walk BUT if we dont walk the talk how on earth will we recieve the fruits of what we believe in?

Could you expand on that please self?
 
selfactivated
#29
Well, without sounding pius, if we (as spiritual people) dont listen to our spiritual guides then what does that do to our accredidation? We as a people spout off pricipalities that we dont follow. That makes us hypocrites. I'll expand more but let me wake up a bit.
 
selfactivated
#30
Its amazing how clear you think in the shower and then it all disapears.

Ok lets try this.

As a nation the Indian people have had very clear beliefs, very clear ways of life, based on nature and based on Spirit guides. Then forieners come to their land and force thier belief system and way of life on the Indians. Yes they fought for a bit but mostly they caved. Now, here we are hundreds of years later hiding our true beliefs in our Shamans, saying we are "christians" on the outside. We want our automity back BUT we want a hand out.

Our CORE beliefs are that of be strong, look inward to our strengths and KNOW the Spirits of the land. But we're broken, We've lost our roots of the oak and the red cedar. We've lost the path. In my opinion the tredies are already broken, the people that they were made with no longer exist. Those people hundreds of years ago no longer are around. Im not saying take away their land but its time to intragate (sp) into the nation that has grown. Give the nations a religious status but its time all the fractions become one.

You said you know the ways of the elders, youve heard their words. I too have listened. I too have learned. The message I took away from that tree was we are one. We ARE and WILL BE one nation on Turtle island. And as the oldest clan we must help. Now Im sounding a bit nuttier than usual but BE the change. BE the new world.

I hope you understood my meaning. I have trouble with type written words. But I am fluent in spirit.
 

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