Quebec shouldn't separate from Canada


data-unlimited
#1
I know what I'm saying might sound childish, but Canada is a country, and Quebec is a part of it. Lots of leaders have tried hard to keep Canada together. If Quebec wants to be a separate nation, how about Alberta, and the other provinces? Wouldn't they feel the same?
 
Numure
#2
... Think harder, you might find better reasons.
 
shamus11
#3






Canadian Moral Values

By

James Bredin

Carolyn Parrish hates the Americans with a passion,
In her dippy do dad left-wing place, this is the fashion,
Hates George Bush too though he is the American boss,
Does Parrish make policy and could this be our loss?

I myself would like to celebrate George’s reelection,
With the moral-value guys who made the selection,
The Liberals of course see this as oncoming doom,
As we all move over to give the refugees more room.

These international socialists have their own agenda,
Pumped out every day in Liberal propaganda,
Goody-two-shoe righteous types with their own book of rules,
Want us in Africa running around like UN fools.

Because they’re pampered in Ottawa by Liberal friends,
Pay the ransom to Quebec and all those socialist trends,
Call it “equalization” or some other nice name,
As we look on and they drag us down their Liberal drain.

These sad shameless jet-setting spineless Adscam slobs,
Airheads and windbags in lock step appointing other snobs,
To make their own righteous moral value decisions,
About freedom of choice, ethics and marriage revisions.

And we can only be mesmerized by their actions,
Movement of money revealed in adscam transactions,
We’re not allowed referendums, term limits or recall
It’s their status quo they maintain and stuff it to us all.

Sunday, November 07, 2004


http://jamesbredin0.tripod.com/id14.html

http://shamus11.journalspace.com/
 
data-unlimited
#4
Quote: Originally Posted by Numure

... Think harder, you might find better reasons.

XP care to give me one, then?
 
Mr.Grieve
#5
I must say that Quebec shouldn't separate from Canada.For they are all one and if one part goes somthing else might go with it.If it does separate will it be able to continue what it has been doing.We all have to consider the questions and what the people think about this.
 
Numure
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by data-unlimited

Quote: Originally Posted by Numure

... Think harder, you might find better reasons.

XP care to give me one, then?

If Québec seperates, Canada looses its position as a "Middle Power". It looses its membership in the G7 (G8, what ever floats your boat). The dollard would, inevitibly crash. Canada would be split in half ( If the crie don't follow, then it won't be as bad... but thats another issue). The Federal goverment looses a big bulk of its revenue.

Alot more reason could follow... But, I'm seperatist myself. So I can't really think of all the reasons. I can easily, think of many reasons why.

Its not a lost cause. I've said many times, if Canada is going to work, it needs alot of Reforms. Decentralisation...

1) We should eliminate the Federal goverments ability to collect revenue. Limits its ability to over rule the provinces atrhority.

2) A new revenue system for the federal goverment should be put in place. Example would be that the provincial goverments collect revenues (Taxes... whatever else), and then give a % determined by the Provinces GDP. This would eliminate the need of equalisation payments. It would also allow, more conservatives provinces to have lower taxes and less services (Alberta). And more Socialist provinces to pay more, but have more services (Québec).

I have alot of ideas of the sort... I should make my own thread.

End is; the Status Quo aint working. Better change, or this country won't last the next century.
 
Machjo
#7
I'm quite indifferent as to wether Quebec separates from Canada or not. On the other hand, you must understand that English language hegemony in the world makes the notion of having the same laws for English and French (what many English speakers support, because on the surface it seems fair enough) nothing more than giving everyone the option of choosing English. A similar problem is starting to surface here in China. So true equality would not mean same rights for both languages, but equal rights for both languages (which would mean laws which would counterbalance the devouring tendencies of English on other languages).

I suspect Numure's preferred option (only my guess based on what I've read from some of his posts, so he can certainly correct me if I'm wrong) would be either a sovereign Quebec (in which case I'm not sure what kind of relationship he'd hope to establish with the new Canada) or, if Quebec must remain with Canada, then English-french bilingualism at the federal level but extreme decentralization to the provincial level. One issue I can see with that plan, however, is that Quebec would still have to use English on the international scale, thus still witness a continuous shrinking of the French language at the international level, and thus a continuing threat to the french language.

My preferred option would be (regardless wether Quebec remains part of Canada or not) to consult on an easy-to-learn common second language for all Canadians. I believe this would allow the federal government (be it a national or international organization, either way) to save money of interpretation and interpretation. It would also allow all Canadians (or ex-Canadians, either way) to feel a stronger bond with the rest of (ex-?) Canada, thus helping to contribute to stronger cultural ties. And an additinal advantage would be that since Canada (and Quebec, if it isn't part of Canada) would have an alternative 'interlanguage', this could go much further in countering the hegemonic effects of the English language in teh world today, thus posing less of a threat to teh French language as a whole.

Any other ideas?
 
Numure
#8
I think a seperate Québec, would have much better relations with Canada. Afterall, we have much in common that would bring us to co-operate as equals. Right now, we arnt equals. We are the minority. And in a democracy, minority rights are shunned by the majority. As equals, their wouldnt be endless squabbles as their has been since the creation of Canada.

The problem isnt just Language. So a second common language won't change much. The problem goes deeper. To the roots of our différent upbringing. Our different culture has a hole. Even second common language would solve some problems, but not all.
 
shamus11
+1
#9  Top Rated Post
I have a problem in this so called bilingual country. I can't understand French. Therefore I can't understand half the government broadcasts.

I would like to learn French but this would cost me an arm and a leg. Even though incoming refugee claimants can get lessons for free.

But because I'm a Canadian, I'm denied this.
 
Reverend Blair
+1
#10
Everything the government puts out is available in both official languages, Shamus. If you can't understand what the government broadcasts it's because they've put it into that universally baffling language...beaurocratese.
 
LadyC
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by Numure

I think a seperate Québec, would have much better relations with Canada. Afterall, we have much in common that would bring us to co-operate as equals. Right now, we arnt equals.

This makes no sense. If you feel Quebec isn't "equal" now, why will it suddenly become equal after separation?
 
Numure
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyC

Quote: Originally Posted by Numure

I think a seperate Québec, would have much better relations with Canada. Afterall, we have much in common that would bring us to co-operate as equals. Right now, we arnt equals.

This makes no sense. If you feel Quebec isn't "equal" now, why will it suddenly become equal after separation?

Because one Nation-Country to another is equal. By Internationnal law.
 
LadyC
#13
By international law, maybe. But in actual practice?

The act of separation alone isn't going to make Quebec suddenly equal. YOu really think there wouldn't be hard feelings from the rest of us? Not to mention the almost 50% who voted "no"?
 
Machjo
#14
Then the solution to keep both sides happy is to make them feel equal. On the language front at least, which what I like to focus on, some agreement needs to be reached. For English Canadians, the idea of 'equal' means same (i.e., English and French have the same rights). For French Canadians, on the other hand, the idea of 'equal' includes taking into consideration the sheer power of the Englsih language on the world scene, and how to counterbalance it. Any ideas on how to establish 'equality' on that front?

And of course I'm not if\gnoring the fact that there are also other issues besides language as well.
 
LadyC
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by machjo

Any ideas on how to establish 'equality' on that front?

What is it you're looking for - to be "equal" to the rest of Canada... or to the rest of the world? Quebec is no more or no less than any other province.

If this is your chief complaint, I think you're in for a rude awakening should Quebec ever separate. You think other countries, particularly the U.S., give a rat's patootie about making you "feel equal" when it comes to your language?

C'mon. I live near Vancouver. There are many signs here in Cantonese or Mandarine. Some areas you'll find signs where Punjabi is the prominent language. Do I as an Anglophone feel my language is threatened? No.
 
LadyC
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by machjo

For French Canadians, on the other hand, the idea of 'equal' includes taking into consideration the sheer power of the Englsih language on the world scene, and how to counterbalance it.

Correcting perceived imbalances by swinging the pendulum all the way to the other side isn't making things equal. It's merely substituting one bias for another.
 
Machjo
#17
Thanks for the post, LadyC. I live in China, and we're becomming concerned about the hegemonic influence of English here as well; studies have already proven that average level of competence in Chinese here is dropping as everyone is jumping on the English bandwagon with a fanaticism with full intencity, and some are talking about enforcing limits (Taiwan has already banned English in its kindergartens to take effect soon), and Hong Kong is currently talking about the same thing. In the EU earlier this year, the EU parliamenthad a vote in favour of making Esperanto the official bridge language when direct interpretation wasn't possible (and although research has proven that Esperanto is a more precise translation language, which is crucial especially in relay interpretation and translation, I'm sure other factors relating to ethnic identity played a role in the vote too), and 43% voted in favour. Although that's short of the necessary 50% + 1, you can immagine it's caused quite the debate if you've gone to a few European forums on the internet.

Administratively, Quebec might be a province, but ethnically, it's a distinct group. So I'd suspect that if Quebec decided to make alot of noise in the international community relating to language equality, I'd suspect it would find quite a few allies.

Now as for 'equality', we've already come across a few concepts in CD. Among them:

Federalist alternatives:

1. Same rights for English and French, which many English Canadians prefer, I suspect (guaranteed to eventually lead to Quebec sovereignty since the Quebecois, just like many in other nations today, believe that same rights in this respect is the same as giving the whole world the right to choose English so as to get ahead in life. So from this standpoint, they'd argue that even non-English-speakers in English Canada are bound to assimilate to English after a few generations, thus suggesting that any 'threat' to the enlgish language at the moment is a myth.).

2. Concept of two founding nations (though this might keep English and French Canada together through the recognition of Quebec being a distinct society within Canada with special rights to protect it against English hegemony, which I suspect would win some support from both sides, but could alienate first nations and other minority groups, including bilinguals like myself who don't want to see either side of their heritage dominating the other or likewise seeing a split within the two sides of their heritage).

Alternatives which could apppeal to both federalists and sovereignists, especially among minority ethnic groups:

3. The adoption of an easy-to-learn auxiliary language which would allow all sides to communicate on the national or international scale on a footing of equality, thus not advantaging any group unfairly, and thus not provoking further ethnic conflict at the national or international level. This could also save temendous amounts of money on translation and interpretation on the national and international scale. While this is my preferred option, I suspect few among the English and French Canadians would support it since it would also imply putting everyone (not only English and French Canadians) on an equal footing, which could lead some to fear for their current position of superior political influence, despite the strong ethical (though certainly weak political) arguments for it.

Alternatives which could appeal to sovereignists:

4. Sovereingty. English Canada adopts English, and French Canada adopts French. Other ethnic groups within both respective realms are expected to assimilate to the majority group, at least to some degree, which is bound to lead to at least some ethnic conflict within each domain. Another difficulty with sovereignty is that it still doesn't solve the problem of English hegemony which is an international, not national, issue; after all, in what language would the nation of Quebec communicate with its neighbours? So many Quebecois would still feel the pressure to learn English, whereas such pressure wouldn't be felt so strongly in Canada and the US. Of course Quebec could try to relate knowledge of French to visas, business visas, etc. But then that would also harm international cultural exchanges between Quebec and its neighbours.
 
Machjo
#18
Other options:
Federalist:

5. If Canada could convince the UN and other international organizations to adopt option 3 above at the international level, then maybe option 1 or option 2 above could work in the long term since the threat of the English language to French would be reduced, with an international auxiliary language acting as a buffer.

Sovereingist:

6. Quebec separates and we follow option 4 above internally, but Quebec promotes option 3 internationally. Should it succeed in convincing the UN and other international organizations to adopt this option, then Quebec could soften its language laws internally since the threat of English would be reduced internatinally.

As an aside, since I'd mentionned the Chinese situation in the previous post, I'll give you a webpage here which will show quite a few parallels with the Quebec, European and Chinese situations. Unfortunately, however, not all the information is in English, but here it is anyway:
http://htliu.nease.net/
 
Numure
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo

Then the solution to keep both sides happy is to make them feel equal. On the language front at least, which what I like to focus on, some agreement needs to be reached. For English Canadians, the idea of 'equal' means same (i.e., English and French have the same rights). For French Canadians, on the other hand, the idea of 'equal' includes taking into consideration the sheer power of the Englsih language on the world scene, and how to counterbalance it. Any ideas on how to establish 'equality' on that front?

And of course I'm not if\gnoring the fact that there are also other issues besides language as well.

Its not about language. Itsa about control over our own society. Over our futur, over our assets. Chretien almost sold our water just a few years ago.

I've said this many time Machjo, its not just about Language.
 
Machjo
#20
I partially agree, Numure. For me, language is a major issue, whereas other issues are secondary. For you as well as for many others, language might be only a minor issue, whereas sovereignty is the ultimate goal.

But here's the point. If you as a sovereignist want to win those like myself who are indifferent to sovereignty into your camp, then you must understand that the way to do so is to address our concerns too. For instance, my decision to support either the federalist or sovereignist camp would be strongly dependent on which side would adopt a more just language policy at the national and international levels. Other undecideds or non-committed types might be influenced by other issues as well, such as the ecological policies of a sovereignist Quebec vs a federalist Canada, etc. So if the committed soverignists can't get the non-comittal group into its camp, tehn sovereignty will certainly be more difficult in the end.

So as an example here, just as the sovereignists might suggest that if those who support international language policy reforms support the sovereignist camp, then it will be prepared to support such reforms at the international level. Inversely, Those concerned about language rights issues might try the same by promissing to suport the sovereignist camp should it become vocal about international language equality, etc.
 
Numure
#21
Ok then, lets get to what I believe in. We, in the world community, need a common language. I've thought about Esperanto, not a bad idea per say. As of late (Mostly du to you mon ami), I've thought, why not latin? Nothing substantial on this as of yet.

Well, I have many ideas for an independant Québec, though all on paper and not in the informatique mainstream. I've shared thse with very few people (Mostly fellow PQ members). It shows promise. I should get to sharing it with alot more people, but im still working on it (It takes up alot of my time lately). It address multiple issues, as I myself am sceptique by nature. Even if its a cause I support with all my heart.

You ask intriguing questions, but sadly I cannot give you all the answer. I am but one, of many seperatist. But I am not a leader, and how seperation will be done changes all the time. I share what I know, and the opinions of fellow members.
 
Machjo
#22
If you're interested in the topic of language planning issues, you can also have a look at:
http://www.esperanto.net/
 
Andem
Free Thinker
+1
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo

If you're interested in the topic of language planning issues, you can also have a look at:
http://www.esperanto.net/

If you don't mind me asking, Machjo, what's with your obsession with esperanto? Sorry if I used the word obsession wrong, but it just seems that you're extremely interested in promoting it.
 
Machjo
#24
I don't mind at all, Andem. I don't support Esperanto per se, but rather te principle of a 'Universal Auxiliary Langauge'.

And the reason I consider it so important is because of all the conflict it's causing in the world. I myself was raised into a bilingual family in a relatively bilingual city. I'd witnessed both anti-french and anti-Englsih sentiments all my life. Add to tat that I've witnessed resentment here in China among many people for the fact tat wile they must work so ard to achieve a minimal command of te English language after years of study, English speakers are actually making money just selling their language. I've also witnessed tensions parallel to Canada's in Xinjiang likewise, were many Uighurs resent Chinese and would prefer speking with oter Cinese in English as a neutral language. Add to that tat some academics are now suggesting tat language as also played a role in more violent conflicts, including in the Balkans, and now in te Sudan. Tere are plenty of sites on this subject, but I'll only present one for a start:

http://www.harvardmagazine.com/on-line/03022.html

I hope tis answers some of your questions.
 
data-unlimited
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by Numure

Quote: Originally Posted by data-unlimited

Quote: Originally Posted by Numure

... Think harder, you might find better reasons.

XP care to give me one, then?

If Québec seperates, Canada looses its position as a "Middle Power". It looses its membership in the G7 (G8, what ever floats your boat). The dollard would, inevitibly crash. Canada would be split in half ( If the crie don't follow, then it won't be as bad... but thats another issue). The Federal goverment looses a big bulk of its revenue.

Alot more reason could follow... But, I'm seperatist myself. So I can't really think of all the reasons. I can easily, think of many reasons why.

Its not a lost cause. I've said many times, if Canada is going to work, it needs alot of Reforms. Decentralisation...

1) We should eliminate the Federal goverments ability to collect revenue. Limits its ability to over rule the provinces atrhority.

2) A new revenue system for the federal goverment should be put in place. Example would be that the provincial goverments collect revenues (Taxes... whatever else), and then give a % determined by the Provinces GDP. This would eliminate the need of equalisation payments. It would also allow, more conservatives provinces to have lower taxes and less services (Alberta). And more Socialist provinces to pay more, but have more services (Québec).

I have alot of ideas of the sort... I should make my own thread.

End is; the Status Quo aint working. Better change, or this country won't last the next century.

I understand what you mean. But it is hard for me, too, because I don't know much about Canada political system or interested in them. And the only reason I came here was because of the assignment i had to do in school.
But it's also true that I've become intrested in the topic after debating about it in class.
It seems that Quebec has so many privilleges that it's almost a separate nation from Canada, which is exactly why Quebec should stay with Canada.
I know Canada spent a lot of money on Quebec just so it would be part of Canada. Right now, it seems that Quebec is just receiving, and Canada is giving in to what Quebec demands - alot.

I hope people from Quebec wouldn't be offended by what I wrote, but it's my opinion. If I said anything wrong, please feel free to point it out. Thanks.
 
Reverend Blair
#26
Quote:

I know Canada spent a lot of money on Quebec just so it would be part of Canada. Right now, it seems that Quebec is just receiving, and Canada is giving in to what Quebec demands - alot.

That's not exactly accurate. Quebec gets a lot of money because it's where the votes are. If Saskatchewan had their population and a tendency to supply the seats to make or break a government, Saskatchewan would get the money.
 
Numure
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by data-unlimited


I understand what you mean. But it is hard for me, too, because I don't know much about Canada political system or interested in them. And the only reason I came here was because of the assignment i had to do in school.
But it's also true that I've become intrested in the topic after debating about it in class.
It seems that Quebec has so many privilleges that it's almost a separate nation from Canada, which is exactly why Quebec should stay with Canada.
I know Canada spent a lot of money on Quebec just so it would be part of Canada. Right now, it seems that Quebec is just receiving, and Canada is giving in to what Quebec demands - alot.

I hope people from Quebec wouldn't be offended by what I wrote, but it's my opinion. If I said anything wrong, please feel free to point it out. Thanks.

It's true, we (Québec) have fought to gain control over certain aspects of our society. The federal goverment had to change certain things, or a referendum would of been won a long time ago.
Canada doesnt spend more here per citizen, then it does else where. We just have services that are offered by the provincial goverment, but are offered by the Feds in the rest of Canada. The RCMP for one, isnt present in Québec. We also have our own pension plan. National day care program. Integration of immigrants is also the responsibility of the Province, instead of the federal goverment (As it is for the RoC*).

Alot more could be said to why we receive more from the Federal goverment.

**RoC= Rest of Canada
 
Andem
Free Thinker
#28
There's nothing special about having services unique to the province. Ontario also does not have the RCMP like the rest of Canada, we have our own OPP.

But the extra services the Quebec government provides drain the funding from other responsibilities like Infrastructure. Quebec roads are horrible! Montreal is pothole city!

If it wasn't for the federal government, Numure, the métro wouldn't be undergoing this revilitisation and reparation.
 
Martin Le Acadien
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyC

Quote: Originally Posted by machjo

Any ideas on how to establish 'equality' on that front?

What is it you're looking for - to be "equal" to the rest of Canada... or to the rest of the world? Quebec is no more or no less than any other province.

If this is your chief complaint, I think you're in for a rude awakening should Quebec ever separate. You think other countries, particularly the U.S., give a rat's patootie about making you "feel equal" when it comes to your language?

C'mon. I live near Vancouver. There are many signs here in Cantonese or Mandarine. Some areas you'll find signs where Punjabi is the prominent language. Do I as an Anglophone feel my language is threatened? No.

Sorry, Lady C, here in Louisiana the French Language is a LEGAL Language and EQUAL to English and Spanish! Our Ballots are printed in French and English here! We are more like New Brunswick and even our Stop Signs say STOP-ARRET! In the US, there is no OFFICIAL NATIONAL LANGUAGE, so we could start conducting business in Spanish at any time! Spanish is our Secondary Language since all Gov't bulletins are now printed also in Spanish. Income Tax Form are available in a myriad of Foriegn Languages!

However, Quebec had better do something about their low birth rate if they hope for French to survive 200 years, even Anglophones are a minority in California! Spanish is the language of choice in about 25 states.

Latin lasted until 500 AD and it was surplanted by the Goths, Franks and Huns who made the roots of the modern languages of Europe evolve!

Like you, I don't feel threatened, just I happen to understand the dynamics of change and I am willing to change!
 
AXL
#30
Numure said something about the Federal government losing a large portion of their revenue. What about the provincial equalization payments through which Quebec recieves more than any other province. Last year Quebec recieved $4.5 billion which is $3.4 billion less than any other province not to mention that Ontario and Alberta actually had to pay money into that fund. Quebec is also expected to recieve about $10 billion for social services and health care in the next year. Do not even try to tell me that Quebec would not suffer from the loss of that money.[/quote]
 

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