Ukrainian genocide


Nuggler
#1
We learned about this in school.

What we learned was that "a lot of people in Eastern Europe starved to death due to famine in the 1930's"

That's it.

Over TEN MILLION starved to death via man made famine, and the Ont. Board of Education saw fit to tell us "a lot of people starved"

I never saw a multitude beating their breasts and crying "never again" for these poor folks.

Read it and weep. Literally:

Ukrainian-Canadians mark famine's 75th anniversary | Sympatico / MSN News
 
tracy
#2
The reason it isn't taught much in school as a genocide is people are still debating whether the Ukrainians were targeted for being Ukrainian (which is what would make it a genocide) or whether it was just the unintended result of Stalin's policies of collectivization. The Canadian government only recognized it as genocide very recently, certainly not in time for you to be taught it in school. Estimates put the dead between 2 and 10 million. It should highlight the problem of famine worldwide. The earth has enough food to feed us all, it's distribution that is the problem. The school system is usually slow in teaching new topics. I never learned about the Ethiopian famine in school. even though it was on the evening news every night at the time.
 
lone wolf
#3
Quote: Originally Posted by tracy View Post

The reason it isn't taught much in school as a genocide is people are still debating whether the Ukrainians were targeted for being Ukrainian (which is what would make it a genocide) or whether it was just the unintended result of Stalin's policies of collectivization. The Canadian government only recognized it as genocide very recently, certainly not in time for you to be taught it in school. Estimates put the dead between 2 and 10 million. It should highlight the problem of famine worldwide. The earth has enough food to feed us all, it's distribution that is the problem. The school system is usually slow in teaching new topics. I never learned about the Ethiopian famine in school. even though it was on the evening news every night at the time.

...or would it steal some thunder from someone else's trials?
 
tracy
#4
Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolf View Post

...or would it steal some thunder from someone else's trials?

Why? Why would an engineered famine steal thunder from anyone else?
 
lone wolf
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by tracy View Post

Why? Why would an engineered famine steal thunder from anyone else?

The Holocaust would lose some its uniqueness
 
Zzarchov
#6
Not really. The holocaust and the ukrainian starvations were quite different.

The ukranian starvation would appear to be closer to the "Great Leap Forward" of China.

What happens when bad policies are put in place.

10-14 million is the historians estimate for all the Soviet Union (its a myth that this only occurred in Ukraine, one reason it wasn't classified as genocide was everyone seemed to be targetted)

2-4 million (give or take) is what demographics experts believe occurred over the soviet union. Part of the problem being poor Soviet records and the already horrendous death rate from the wars means that people aren't sure how many people died from the starvation and just died/emigrated from the previous census.

Shown below is an approximate population decline. As you can see it hit Russia, Khazahk and Georgian areas just as hard.

Thus making it hard to classify as genocide since the majority of the ruling caste were Russian and Stalin was Georgian.

If it was intentional it was far more likely an assault of regions that opposed Stalin. Which while a crime against humanity, wouldn't be genocide.

 
Nuggler
#7
It's very hard to classify it as genocide, if you don't want to.
 
Nuggler
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by tracy View Post

The reason it isn't taught much in school as a genocide is people are still debating whether the Ukrainians were targeted for being Ukrainian (which is what would make it a genocide) or whether it was just the unintended result of Stalin's policies of collectivization. The Canadian government only recognized it as genocide very recently, certainly not in time for you to be taught it in school. Estimates put the dead between 2 and 10 million. It should highlight the problem of famine worldwide. The earth has enough food to feed us all, it's distribution that is the problem. The school system is usually slow in teaching new topics. I never learned about the Ethiopian famine in school. even though it was on the evening news every night at the time.

Ah, Tracy; take away people's food when you know the end result is going to be starvation, it's a genocide. The Ukrainian people and other Eastern Europeans were robbed of their grain and livestock. Joe Stalin knew this. Could have cared less. As did everyone else. Course, the West............didn't know.

Collective, shmective.

I get your point, and well taken about targeting a certain people, but, 10 million makes it a genocide in my books.
 
Zzarchov
#9
Its hard to classify as genocide because Ukrainians weren't the only ones affected.

Nuggler, do you think that the Germans, Russians, Georgians and Kazahks deserved to die?

If its a Genocide, why isn't it a genocide against Russia? Or Georgia? Or Volga Germans? or Kazahks?

Who should apologize to whom? The leader was Georgian, the majority of the land of the USSR was Russian, but Ukranians and Kazahks and even Volga Germans were all part of the government.
 
petros
#10
The reason it isn't taught much in school as a genocide is people are still debating whether the Ukrainians were targeted for being Ukrainian (which is what would make it a genocide) or whether it was just the unintended result of Stalin's policies of collectivization.


I take it you've never been there?
 
petros
#11
Not really. The holocaust and the ukrainian starvations were quite different.

Any idea how many Ukes died in nazi concentration camps? The jews had it easy.
 
Zzarchov
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by petros View Post

The reason it isn't taught much in school as a genocide is people are still debating whether the Ukrainians were targeted for being Ukrainian (which is what would make it a genocide) or whether it was just the unintended result of Stalin's policies of collectivization.


I take it you've never been there?

Where? The famine occurred over the entire soviet union, it extended in parts of the Ukraine SSR that were ethnically Russia (like Crimea) and parts outside the Ukraine which were in no way Ukrainian.

Its an emotional issue with Ukrainians because so many died and it helped ferment Ukranian nationalism. Its one of the "National Myths", not in that its fake, but that its been taken out of historical and into political arenas.

Much like the US national myth of its fight for independance, ignoring that half the population fought against it and it only succeeded due to french intervention.

The US really did secede from the British Empire, but you'd never get a US patriot/nationalist to take an objective look at the matter.


Nor will you get a Ukranian, Georgian , Kazahk or Russian to look at it fairly. Ukranians think it targetted them, Russians often think Stalin targeted them because he was Georgian, Georgians think they were targeted because the Russian elite hated Stalin getting the helm and Kazahks and Germans, well they have ample reason to feel hated.

Not every crime against humanity is genocide in the same way not every capital offence is homocide. That doesn't mean other crimes are less serious (ie, Rape isn't homocide but its still a horrid crime) but you can't throw the label around in error.
 
#juan
#13
Here is another site with a lot of information about this Ukrainian holocaust.

Ukrainian Genocide of 1932-1933
 
lone wolf
#14
If this mass starvation was the result of crop failures, then it wasn't genocide. If it was because Stalin chose to starve rebellious Ukrainians into submission, then that is a horse of another colour and much less humane than swift deaths in Nazi concentration camps. There are reports of aid being prevented from reaching the Ukraine.
Last edited by lone wolf; Nov 23rd, 2008 at 01:46 PM..
 
Zzarchov
#15
Oh it was not Crop failures. At best it was poor logistics. Realistically it was intentional starvation (though there is no proof saying it wasn't poor logistical planning).

But it wasn't starvation of Ukranians. It was Starvation of Ukranian, Russians, Georgians, Germans and Kazahks.

It was fairly indiscriminate, its overall goal seemed to be to restrict the ability of anyone to oppose future policy by controlling key resources (ie food).
 
tracy
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by Nuggler View Post

Ah, Tracy; take away people's food when you know the end result is going to be starvation, it's a genocide. The Ukrainian people and other Eastern Europeans were robbed of their grain and livestock. Joe Stalin knew this. Could have cared less. As did everyone else. Course, the West............didn't know.

Collective, shmective.

I get your point, and well taken about targeting a certain people, but, 10 million makes it a genocide in my books.

The number isn't what makes a genocide. Intent is the main feature. I don't know enough about this situation to comment on whether Ukrainians were specifically tagetted or not. Either way it was a tragic situation and mass murder. I don't see the need to argue over language on this one.
 
petros
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by Zzarchov View Post

Where? The famine occurred over the entire soviet union, it extended in parts of the Ukraine SSR that were ethnically Russia (like Crimea) and parts outside the Ukraine which were in no way Ukrainian.

Its an emotional issue with Ukrainians because so many died and it helped ferment Ukranian nationalism. Its one of the "National Myths", not in that its fake, but that its been taken out of historical and into political arenas.

Much like the US national myth of its fight for independance, ignoring that half the population fought against it and it only succeeded due to french intervention.

The US really did secede from the British Empire, but you'd never get a US patriot/nationalist to take an objective look at the matter.


Nor will you get a Ukranian, Georgian , Kazahk or Russian to look at it fairly. Ukranians think it targetted them, Russians often think Stalin targeted them because he was Georgian, Georgians think they were targeted because the Russian elite hated Stalin getting the helm and Kazahks and Germans, well they have ample reason to feel hated.

Not every crime against humanity is genocide in the same way not every capital offence is homocide. That doesn't mean other crimes are less serious (ie, Rape isn't homocide but its still a horrid crime) but you can't throw the label around in error.

So my elders lied to me eh? Is that what you are trying to tell me?
 
Nuggler
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by tracy View Post

The number isn't what makes a genocide. Intent is the main feature. I don't know enough about this situation to comment on whether Ukrainians were specifically tagetted or not. Either way it was a tragic situation and mass murder. I don't see the need to argue over language on this one.


Thanks, Tracy, that was sort of my point We do sometimes get to splitting hairs.......

Lets just call it a freakin big murder thingy, orchestrated by Joe the man.
 
darkbeaver
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by Zzarchov View Post

Not really. The holocaust and the ukrainian starvations were quite different.

The ukranian starvation would appear to be closer to the "Great Leap Forward" of China.

What happens when bad policies are put in place.

10-14 million is the historians estimate for all the Soviet Union (its a myth that this only occurred in Ukraine, one reason it wasn't classified as genocide was everyone seemed to be targetted)

2-4 million (give or take) is what demographics experts believe occurred over the soviet union. Part of the problem being poor Soviet records and the already horrendous death rate from the wars means that people aren't sure how many people died from the starvation and just died/emigrated from the previous census.

Shown below is an approximate population decline. As you can see it hit Russia, Khazahk and Georgian areas just as hard.

Thus making it hard to classify as genocide since the majority of the ruling caste were Russian and Stalin was Georgian.

If it was intentional it was far more likely an assault of regions that opposed Stalin. Which while a crime against humanity, wouldn't be genocide.

What do we say to the devil in details? You chop an onion very fine Mr Zzarchov.
 
darkbeaver
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by Zzarchov View Post

Oh it was not Crop failures. At best it was poor logistics. Realistically it was intentional starvation (though there is no proof saying it wasn't poor logistical planning).

But it wasn't starvation of Ukranians. It was Starvation of Ukranian, Russians, Georgians, Germans and Kazahks.

It was fairly indiscriminate, its overall goal seemed to be to restrict the ability of anyone to oppose future policy by controlling key resources (ie food).

That's genocde for ideological reasons. details fine print the law
 
tracy
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by Nuggler View Post

Thanks, Tracy, that was sort of my point We do sometimes get to splitting hairs.......

Lets just call it a freakin big murder thingy, orchestrated by Joe the man.

And unfortunately it was hardly the only mass murder he inflicted on the inhabitants of the Soviet Union.
 
tracy
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by petros View Post

So my elders lied to me eh? Is that what you are trying to tell me?

He doesn't know what your elders told you, so how can he say they are lying?
 
Vereya
#23
Zzarkov said it all very well. It could have been intentional famine, but even if it was, it was done to get greater power and control in the area, and not to get rid of the Ukrainians as a nation. One thing can be said for Stalin - he was an amazingly unbiased person. He didn't really care about the nationality of the people he was killing, just having sufficient victims was enough for him
 
scratch
#24
Where did the world come up with these men of no conscience from the early twenties....and it still goes on today.
rgs
scratch
 

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