So Much for Due process, Drones


Rosebud
+1
#1
From: U.S. targets al-Qaeda with fatal drone strikes in Yemen amid fears of potential terrorist attacks | National Post

"Three U.S. drone strikes killed a total of 12 suspected al-Qaeda terrorists Thursday......."

My interest is what the Canadian government has to say about this.

In the long run, what does the US have to gain doing this? They claim to be stamping out terrorism in the world so that a democratic
system can be allowed to form in those countries. They've decided to police the world. But here's the paradox.

Their constitution defends the rights of US citizens to due process, and they tout it has the ideal. They attack people on their own turf and exclude their own due process principles to be applied to these people. All they need to be murdered is to be "suspected" to be terrorists. What country who is candidate for political change would see the wisdom of adopting a US system given this treatment?.

15 years ago I posted the question on an american forum. I asked what are the odds that a nation will conveniently find itself in
a war on average every 4 years? I received no answer. Just recently at a university talk, president Carter asked this same question
after dawning on him this is what's happening.

My fear is one day something like this will happen to us, and who would blame them for the retaliation?. Technology has a way of finding it's way in uncontrolled(? as if the US knew how to responsibly control anything) hands. If one day we are visiting the parliament buildings, and a missle lands and kills my grandkids because some nation thought my family was "suspected" to be their enemy, would nobody find this to be unjust?

I'm fed up with the antics of this arrogant belligerent nation south of us. And get us out of Afghanistan, they may also discover
they can afford drone technology one day. Add that to a shore line that can't be policed, 5 tons of Cesium 137 unaccounted for,
and a US system that can monitor only 2% of products entering their country, and our grandkids have cause to worry...

.......later.

I'm baaaackkkk.
 
Tecumsehsbones
#2
You are indeed back. Unfortunately, during your absence you didn't learn the distinction between warfare and criminal procedure.
 
petros
#3
Yemen Foils Al Qaeda Plot To Seize Oil And Gas Facilities In Al Dabbah
 
EagleSmack
#4
Quote: Originally Posted by Rosebud View Post


I'm fed up with the antics of this arrogant belligerent nation south of us.

Yadda yadda yadda

I love drone strikes like these.
 
petros
#5
Sure why not. The could have interrupted the flow of oil and NG.
 
Tecumsehsbones
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by EagleSmack View Post

Yadda yadda yadda

I love drone strikes like these.

I love drone strikes, period. They're targeted, efficient, and they keep our guys safe.

I'm sure our lefty friends would prefer incinerating entire cities, like we did in the "good" war.
 
Omicron
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by EagleSmack View Post

I love drone strikes like these.

So do I, when it's known with a fair degree of confidence that the target is an enemy.

It's bad for moral when the piloters (I call on-craft flyers 'pilots', and remote-control flyers 'piloters') start feeling like their commanders aren't sure who's an enemy, such that the piloters get left feeling that maybe they're targeting an innocent.
 
gerryh
+1
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by Tecumsehsbones View Post

I love drone strikes, period. They're targeted, efficient, and they keep our guys safe.

I'm sure our lefty friends would prefer incinerating entire cities, like we did in the "good" war.


one wedding at a time is so much better.
 
EagleSmack
+1
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh View Post

one wedding at a time is so much better.

Well whenever they say a drone strike hit a wedding party... it seems that we hit the right target.
 
Tecumsehsbones
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh View Post

one wedding at a time is so much better.

Yes, it is. Do you know how many non-combatants were killed in the incendiary bombings of Dresden and Tokyo?
 
gerryh
+1
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by Tecumsehsbones View Post

Yes, it is. Do you know how many non-combatants were killed in the incendiary bombings of Dresden and Tokyo?


Yup, and how many were killed during Vietnam and shock and awe? As far as I'm concerned, killing one innocent is too many. Your drones have killed innocent non combatants.
 
Tecumsehsbones
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh View Post

Yup, and how many were killed during Vietnam and shock and awe? As far as I'm concerned, killing one innocent is too many. Your drones have killed innocent non combatants.

So you condemn the conduct of the Allies in World War II?

Good. At least you're consistent.
 
gerryh
+1
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by Tecumsehsbones View Post

So you condemn the conduct of the Allies in World War II?

Good. At least you're consistent.


Wow....... you do pay attention, don't you.
 
Locutus
+1
#14
Tecumsehdrones eh.
 
Tecumsehsbones
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh View Post

Wow....... you do pay attention, don't you.

Try to. You said that as far as you're concerned, killing one innocent is too many. And you admit that the Allies killed many, many innocents in WWII. So I presume you're condemning the Allies just as you condemn the U.S. Either that, or you're a hypocrite.

Your choice.
 
EagleSmack
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh View Post

Wow....... you do pay attention, don't you.

Apparently not.
 
Omicron
#17
Has "shock and awe" ever worked when it's just hitting the enemy with an overwhelming amount of something they are already familiar with?

The only time I can think of where "shock and awe" worked was when Japan was nuked, but it was because nukes were *so* unexpected and *so* over the top that all anyone could do was be stunned.

When Dresden and Tokyo were flattened and burned, were they shocked and awed, or did they just think their enemy was being an a-hole?
 
gerryh
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by Tecumsehsbones View Post

Try to. You said that as far as you're concerned, killing one innocent is too many. And you admit that the Allies killed many, many innocents in WWII. So I presume you're condemning the Allies just as you condemn the U.S. Either that, or you're a hypocrite.

Your choice.


I've been banned from this site for my views on war.
 
EagleSmack
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh View Post

I've been banned from this site for my views on war.

Well, he thought he got you.
 
gerryh
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by Omicron View Post

Has "shock and awe" ever worked when it's just hitting the enemy with an overwhelming amount of something they are already familiar with?

The only time I can think of where "shock and awe" worked was when Japan was nuked, but it was because nukes were *so* unexpected and *so* over the top that all anyone could do was be stunned.

When Dresden and Tokyo were flattened and burned, were they shocked and awed, or did they just think their enemy was being an a-hole?


Hey dummy, when was shock and awe used in the comparative recent history? Anyone with half a brain knew what I was talking about. Or do you fall outside that requirement?
 
Omicron
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh View Post

Hey dummy, when was shock and awe used in the comparative recent history? Anyone with half a brain knew what I was talking about. Or do you fall outside that requirement?

Huh?

Actually, I wasn't responding, in particular, to anything you had posted.

I was skimming through the thread, and I read the phrase "shock and awe", and it got me thinking on a philosophical level, so I tossed the question back to the forum in order to read what others thought.

In particular I was curious to read what the vets had to say, because, in my experience, when talking about defense, what those who've been there have to say tends to fall into a different set of responses from those who don't, and it's always interesting to see what's different and where there is common ground (think ven-diagrams).
 
Tecumsehsbones
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh View Post

I've been banned from this site for my views on war.

Probably best we leave it alone for now, in that case.

Sorry that happened to you.
 
Omicron
+3
#23  Top Rated Post
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh View Post

I've been banned from this site for my views on war.

Probably not so much your views, but how you express them.
 
petros
#24
There is no joy in bloodshed. At all.
 
Tecumsehsbones
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by petros View Post

There is no joy in bloodshed. At all.

Sure there is.
 
damngrumpy
+2
#26
There is a war going on whether we chose to say it or not does not
make a difference. The radical Islamists are willing to make us a
target whether we want to sit around the campfire and sing songs
doesn't count.
They want to destroy our way of life. They would if they could blow
up our trains, hijack our passenger planes and blow up infrastructure.
they are training people in the wilderness to do this. If we can kill
them from the air where they have no defence for a change that is
alright with me.
I like what Churchill said we will accept nothing less than unconditional
surrender in the end. I wonder what this discussion will be like when
they do something here and get away with it. The enemy gets no
sympathy from me no matter where they are., And just think I am not
right wing I am just fed up with them
 
Tecumsehsbones
+1
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by damngrumpy View Post

There is a war going on whether we chose to say it or not does not
make a difference. The radical Islamists are willing to make us a
target whether we want to sit around the campfire and sing songs
doesn't count.
They want to destroy our way of life. They would if they could blow
up our trains, hijack our passenger planes and blow up infrastructure.
they are training people in the wilderness to do this. If we can kill
them from the air where they have no defence for a change that is
alright with me.
I like what Churchill said we will accept nothing less than unconditional
surrender in the end. I wonder what this discussion will be like when
they do something here and get away with it. The enemy gets no
sympathy from me no matter where they are., And just think I am not
right wing I am just fed up with them

Funny, I disagree with every word you wrote, and yet I agree with your conclusion.

Hope that's good enough for you.
 
Rosebud
+1
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by Tecumsehsbones View Post

You are indeed back. Unfortunately, during your absence you didn't learn the distinction between warfare and criminal procedure.

I'm game, please quote the time and date an official declaration of war was approved by congress and announced to the UN.
 
gerryh
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by Omicron View Post

Probably not so much your views, but how you express them.


Yup, people don't like the hard truths put right in front of them.
 
Tecumsehsbones
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by Rosebud View Post

I'm game, please quote the time and date an official declaration of war was approved by congress and announced to the UN.

Sure. September 14, 2001. The citation is Pub. L.107-40, 115 Stat. 224.

I don't know it it was ever "announced" to the UN. I'm not even sure what that means. It was "announced" to all and sundry when it was passed.

Not that any of this matters. The laws of war apply in undeclared wars as well as declared ones.
 

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