Criminal Record Checks for Clergy?


AndyF
#1
I was wondering if in the same spirit of trust,honour and fraternity that pervades the holy halls these days by the implementation of criminal record checks for those who are working in the administration of Church, that the clergy could be checked for criminal records, since they are to receive information in the confessional and be in contact with babys.

I think we would want to have people of high repute to "have access to the confidential file system of our hearts" as it were. Since they have full confidence in the police system and it's mechanisms to carry out this purpose, perhaps a few questions on another mechanism of choice by them could be employed, ie: the polygraph could be drawn up to further put us at ease.

AndyF
 
RomSpaceKnight
#2
If you have to be celibate why not a chemical castration. Change your mind about being a priest it should wear off. The problem expressed in the media seems to be diddlers and pervs not conmen and fraudsters.
 
sanctus
#3
Quote: Originally Posted by AndyF View Post

I was wondering if in the same spirit of trust,honour and fraternity that pervades the holy halls these days by the implementation of criminal record checks for those who are working in the administration of Church, that the clergy could be checked for criminal records, since they are to receive information in the confessional and be in contact with babys.

I think we would want to have people of high repute to "have access to the confidential file system of our hearts" as it were. Since they have full confidence in the police system and it's mechanisms to carry out this purpose, perhaps a few questions on another mechanism of choice by them could be employed, ie: the polygraph could be drawn up to further put us at ease.

AndyF


It is part of the screening process before a man is accepted for Seminary, as well as extensive psychological evaluations.
 
AndyF
#4
Quote: Originally Posted by sanctus View Post

It is part of the screening process before a man is accepted for Seminary, as well as extensive psychological evaluations.

....and 2000 years too late to ensure that despicable genocidal St. Paul doesn't make it pass the screening. It would seem our standards are higher than Jesus's.

AndyF
 
AndyF
#5
Further:

A clarification. I wasn't trying to get in with secular lynch mobs, but was trying to make a point that rulings could go both ways on this one.

Dogma states we are to distant ourselves from evil influences and socialize with those who are God's friends. Evil may present itself has an aid to society. Discernment also calls for studying the virtuousness of every entity.

The judicial system of this nation leaves much to be desired in the area of reconciliation, and while it is obstinate in this, remains in a state of mortal sin. In Mathew we are reminded to "settle before the magistrate" then get on with our lives, that rule applies to nations as well. We are to state what is required to compensate for the crime, and settle everything there. Corinthians shows us that Paul needed to come to the assistance of an offender and save him from the lynch mob of his "faithful" congregation, long after he has paid his debt to society.

The criminal record was once a tool to assist the police in crime solving, but now has become an instrument to curb the activities of those who have paid the debt that the magistrate stated would correct the wrong, and are once again instilled as full citizens in their own right. Curbing of activities is a sentencing, in fact everything that is applied to the offender because of the crime is a sentence. Everything that the sentence compounds is a sentence. (This is the trial process at our celestial judgement, everything that our sin compounded is included and shown to the judged.) The sentence applied once again when the "available at any price" record check shows again that one more despicable person has the audacity to be at large and dares to try to make his life straight.

This new age of electronics can be used to assist the Church. In spite of clear indicators that the judicial system has not set it's house in order, it can make use of one of it's instruments to post sentence has well, and itself overlook that chapter in Mathew for it's own ends. The Church shows by this it does not need to discriminate between good and evil as we all do, it can use whatever is available in the name of the common good. The point missed is that the instrument is not to be used at all for the common good when it was obtained through the enlistment of evil, and ignores the warning that common good implies the existance of common evil.

So what pastoral councelling is this perpetual whipping post of a man to receive who comes to the Church for help? He may ask for a comforting ear from a representative of an institution that itself does the exact same thing to others, a conflict of interest if there ever was one. I suppose the Church could try to state the misinterpreted common good precept, or it could simply suggest the man become a martyr and sent on his way. But if he feels betrayed by Jesus, and for all intents and purposes he is, (for you non believers the Church claims to be the embodiment of Christ) there is no one to comfort him. He is in a true predicament, not even realizing he was betrayed.

It is remarkable that in 2000 years the Church suddenly finds itself overwhelmed by evil on all sides, coincidentally, just when the technology of electronic filing just happens to be available. One is left to wonder how it made it to today without it.

So for all you non believers, the Church itself can one-up any system that's out there in corruption, can put aside principles that were never it's own to begin with. I think it needs to get back to grass roots and restudy it's cause, and to try to understand it's own teaching in a clearer light. While it knows an entity is in a state of mortal sin and strives to become a partner or make use of what he can offer, the Church becomes complicite in that sin.

Meanwhile our lost man will need to wait for virtuous helpers, and if the helpers try to take on the task before they examine their own consciences, they are hypocrites.

AndyF
 
sanctus
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by AndyF View Post


Dogma states we are to distant ourselves from evil influences and socialize with those who are God's friends. Evil may present itself has an aid to society. Discernment also calls for studying the virtuousness of every entity.

There is a certain wisdom to this train of thought. God knows fully how weak and corruptible each of us are. The true wisdom is truly to remain distant from people and things which may cause us to be unduly influenced towards that which is evil.


Quote: Originally Posted by AndyF View Post

This new age of electronics can be used to assist the Church. In spite of clear indicators that the judicial system has not set it's house in order, it can make use of one of it's instruments to post sentence has well, and itself overlook that chapter in Mathew for it's own ends. The Church shows by this it does not need to discriminate between good and evil as we all do, it can use whatever is available in the name of the common good. The point missed is that the instrument is not to be used at all for the common good when it was obtained through the enlistment of evil, and ignores the warning that common good implies the existance of common evil.

The Church uses whatever means it can to assist in the spreading of the Gospel. But even the internet can be an evil if used incorrectly. It should never replace actual human contact. Too many of us are, though, becoming reliant on this cyber world for our means of contact with the outside world. This can never replace physical fellowship with the community.

Quote: Originally Posted by AndyF View Post

So what pastoral councelling is this perpetual whipping post of a man to receive who comes to the Church for help? He may ask for a comforting ear from a representative of an institution that itself does the exact same thing to others, a conflict of interest if there ever was one. I suppose the Church could try to state the misinterpreted common good precept, or it could simply suggest the man become a martyr and sent on his way. But if he feels betrayed by Jesus, and for all intents and purposes he is, (for you non believers the Church claims to be the embodiment of Christ) there is no one to comfort him. He is in a true predicament, not even realizing he was betrayed.

The Church must first offer love. That begins in all pastoral settings. Non-judgemental and open to receive the words and pain of the soul seeking its assistance. The Church is perfect, for it has been created by God and as an entity reflects God. That some of its members are less than perfect is lamentable, but to be expected. Even clergy can fail to live out the message of the Gospel in their daily lives.

Quote: Originally Posted by AndyF View Post

It is remarkable that in 2000 years the Church suddenly finds itself overwhelmed by evil on all sides, coincidentally, just when the technology of electronic filing just happens to be available. One is left to wonder how it made it to today without it.

The Church has always been overhwelmed by evil on all sides. This day is not different than any other day.It began surrounded by evil, and has existed for 2,000 years with evil on all sides of it. What seems different now is only because we have electronic media making all knowledge instant. But the church, our Holy Mother Church, has always existed in this world surrounded by those outside who would clamour likes wolves to destroy it. Even now they howl at its dorrs, but it will be to no avail. They tell us our Church is dying, and yet ignore its strength and its growth.We know this to be true, for it is the promise God Himself provided when He instructed us that the fires of hell would never prevail against the Church.
 
missile
#7
Where I can see this testing being very useful is in many of the weirder Protestant sects[ such as Pentecosts]..lots of very bad ministers in that group . I don't see this as any problem in the major religions. I should have included that Southern Baptist outfit ..the one that kisses poisonous rattlers.
 
sanctus
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by missile View Post

Where I can see this testing being very useful is in many of the weirder Protestant sects[ such as Pentecosts]..lots of very bad ministers in that group . I don't see this as any problem in the major religions. I should have included that Southern Baptist outfit ..the one that kisses poisonous rattlers.


To be fair to the Baptists, they are not the sect you mention. This is a pentecostal type group..very odd.
 
westmanguy
#9
I know this is going far... but the big problem with celibacy, is that every single human being gets urges for sex.

I see the urge for sex as human instinct... now people who have to follow celibacy, are told never ever can you have sex. Then they have to control and throttle those urges.

And thats where we get those very public mishaps... does the church teach and council, these people before they sign under celibacy... I mean they have to have some prior council on this right?

See I am all for the idea of no sex before marriage.. I am 100% that... and I am not married yet, in my 20s and am a virgin... and to be truthful probably one of the very few virgins at my age... but thats not to say I have never been tempted more then once to go all the way.. but then I stop myself.

So how does the church prepare these people who go under celibacy to deal with temptations?

I am not talking priests here and the high up, they are usually pretty darn in touch with God 99% of the time, and 1 bad apple slides through here and there. More of the nuns and the convent.

I have seen more then 1 time a nun stray away and leave the church..

see I still see this on topic because breaking celibacy could result in a criminal thing..., and any priest, of any church, that sexually molests a child, is the worst thing I can think of, the child puts that man in such high regard and respect and he exploits that... I shudder when I hear those stories
 
missile
#10
I have often wondered just how many survive kissing the rattlesnake on the lips[and secretely hoped that Darwin's law would apply and kill them all] My understanding is they are an offshoot of the Southern Baptist Church,one of those breakaway cults.
 
sanctus
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by missile View Post

I have often wondered just how many survive kissing the rattlesnake on the lips[and secretely hoped that Darwin's law would apply and kill them all] My understanding is they are an offshoot of the Southern Baptist Church,one of those breakaway cults.


That is where they stemmed from, yes, but it is inaccurate to label them as Southern Baptists.
 
AndyF
#12
sanctus:

God knows fully how weak and corruptible each of us are. The true wisdom is truly to remain distant from people and things which may cause us to be unduly influenced towards that which is evil.

"We" and "people" in this thread's context are entities. The three entities which are the focus of this post are Nation,Church and man. What qualifies them as valid entities subject to God's justice is determined by God himself. The recognized form in which they do good and evil and whether or not they deserve and actually receive punishment is also determined by God. God recognizes the actions Nation and Church as two respective collective bodies.

So we can see that all these recognized forms can decide, and can determine right from wrong, and God finds them accountable for their collective action.

The Church uses whatever means it can to assist in the spreading of the Gospel.

No, it cannot use whatever means. It can only use means that it's founder stated are valid means. If it chose a means in opposition to the Supreme Authority, then that would be a unital sin and the body proper is culpable. This is because the Church(collective) defines itself as a singular body and gets approval of this form from God. (and of course officially at Pentecost). The Church "knows" the Nation does not reconcile with it's individuals, even by decree, making it's act mortal.

Summa Q92

On authoritive entities striving to remain virtuous.....

"the common good of the state cannot flourish, unless the citizens be virtuous, at least those whose business it is to govern. But it is enough for the good of the community, that the other citizens be so far virtuous that they obey the commands of their rulers. Hence the Philosopher says (Polit. ii, 2) that "the virtue of a sovereign(authority) is the same as that of a good man(entity),"

On selection of means.............

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06636b.htm

Man(entity) is endowed with free will or the power of electing which good he shall make the goal of action, he can, if he pleases, ignore the dictates of right reason and seek his other goods in a disorderly manner. He may pursue pleasure, riches, fame, or any other desirable end, though his conscience -- that is, his reason -- tells him that the means which he takes to satisfy his desire is wrong. He thereby frustrates his rational nature and deprives himself of his highest perfection. He cannot change the law of things, and this privation of his highest good is the immediate essential punishment incurred by his violation of the moral law.

The action, considered under the character by which it ranks as an element of conduct, must be good.

But even the internet can be an evil if used incorrectly. It should never replace actual human contact. Too many of us are, though, becoming reliant on this cyber world for our means of contact with the outside world. This can never replace physical fellowship with the community.

I don't understand this paragraph in context of my post. A quill applied to parchement in AD56 could just as well convey inappropriate words and be read tothe multitude as can a keyboard and computer. The early Saints used such a method of communication when trying to assist each other with questions needing to be addressed. I'm Sorry if that is not what you meant. Perhaps an example?

The Church must first offer love. That begins in all pastoral settings. Non-judgemental and open to receive the words and pain of the soul seeking its assistance. The Church is perfect, for it has been created by God and as an entity reflects God. That some of its members are less than perfect is lamentable, but to be expected.

Every entity that obstinately refuses the Supreme Authority, after being told that it does so, and after decades of refusal to change, is in mortal sin, (that according to the definition of mortal sin). In this state of mortal sin the good it performs is non-effective until amends are made. Therefore love expressed by an entity in mortal sin has no effect until it is forgiven by a change of attitude and a show of remorse.(NewAdvent/Sin). Secondly love is charity. It would be charitable to let the patient know the position of the Church and that it is in conflict of interest in regards to his case, allying itself by making use of another entity's evil facility that it uses to persecute him. None of this is missed by God.

Even clergy can fail to live out the message of the Gospel in their daily lives.

It can make corrections and advise where it can. Keeping mute on the truth is resignation to the inevitable and based on temporal fear. Hitler's secretaries had a similar explaination.

The Church has always been overhwelmed by evil on all sides. This day is not different than any other day.

Exactly, so the use of the evil of the criminal record by the Church would not be needed.

It began surrounded by evil, and has existed for 2,000 years with evil on all sides of it. What seems different now is only because we have electronic media making all knowledge instant.

So the person now has the bottle presented to him, rather than to work at getting it. It's still alcohol.(evil)

But the church, our Holy Mother Church, has always existed in this world surrounded by those outside who would clamour likes wolves to destroy it. Even now they howl at its doors, but it will be to no avail. They tell us our Church is dying, and yet ignore its strength and its growth.We know this to be true, for it is the promise God Himself provided when He instructed us that the fires of hell would never prevail against the Church.

Agree. If I may add to strength and growth is ....to be receptive to the truth regardless of a person's standing,position in it and what the truth entails. It's Founder accepted humility, so the Church was born humble, not prideful and bound to trappings of intolerance,pomp and political correctness. These are inner evils that need to be watched as well and is covered well in chapter, Temptations of Ministry, Fr. Secundo Galilea O.C.D, in his book Temptation & Discernment (ISBN 0-935216-57-X)

Thanks for the post.

AndyF