Dog tortured and killed in Oven


hermanntrude
#31
I agree with you that this is an awful thing to do. I also note that people are more upset about this than they appeared over the child torture thread.

I really do think they should have very severe punishment, they must know they did wrong. But when doling out punishments it's not what we'd like to do to them that counts, it's what might stop it happening again, and what sends the right message. Clamping them down and performing unsolicited surgery on them is against their human rights, and sends a very dark message to the world. "if you screw up we can do what we want, and by the way it's US who decides if u screwed up". prison may not seem that bad a punishment but it's what murderers get.

They obviously also need some kind of therapy. at the very least so scientists can try and work out what brings people to do this kind of thing
 
whicker
#32
I get really upset when I hear of animal abuse. The only animal on the face of this planet that will abuse another animal(and human) is a human. Humans for the most part are able to get away with it because they totally believe that they are the higher of the species and that the lower species do not have any feelings what-so-ever and are not worth consideration - unless they are making the human money and then their worth is only till the animal stops making the human rich.
In this human species there are those that abuse animals for the simple enjoyment of it, the thrill they get from feeling superior and the fact that they can get away with it and the excuses they use are pathetic to say the least.
These cretins, and others like them have no regard for life. Why should they be spared because they are of the human species which knows better but acts so anyway?
 
hermanntrude
#33
Quote: Originally Posted by whicker View Post

I get really upset when I hear of animal abuse. The only animal on the face of this planet that will abuse another animal(and human) is a human.

NOT true, although they do seem to have a penchant for it. Have you ever seen killer whales play with a baby seal? they bat it around with their tails until they get bored or it dies. sometimes they dont even bother to eat it. Cat's torture mice too. cruelty isnt unique to man.

Humans for the most part are able to get away with it because they totally believe that they are the higher of the species and that the lower species do not have any feelings what-so-ever and are not worth consideration - unless they are making the human money and then their worth is only till the animal stops making the human rich.
In this human species there are those that abuse animals for the simple enjoyment of it, the thrill they get from feeling superior and the fact that they can get away with it and the excuses they use are pathetic to say the least.
These cretins, and others like them have no regard for life. Why should they be spared because they are of the human species which knows better but acts so anyway?

for the same reason murderers arent killed (usually) and rapists arent raped. Emotional sentencing is not the way to go about it. I know it really is very upsetting that someone could do this. I honestly feel as bad about it as you do, I value the life and feelings of a dog too. I certainly don't believe the human race is "higher" than any other beast.

I just dont think we should be dealing out sentences based on feelings
 
whicker
#34
Quote: Originally Posted by hermanntrude View Post

I agree with you that this is an awful thing to do. I also note that people are more upset about this than they appeared over the child torture thread.

I really do think they should have very severe punishment, they must know they did wrong. But when doling out punishments it's not what we'd like to do to them that counts, it's what might stop it happening again, and what sends the right message. Clamping them down and performing unsolicited surgery on them is against their human rights, and sends a very dark message to the world. "if you screw up we can do what we want, and by the way it's US who decides if u screwed up". prison may not seem that bad a punishment but it's what murderers get.

They obviously also need some kind of therapy. at the very least so scientists can try and work out what brings people to do this kind of thing

I am sorry but this is the platitude that is handed out for every wrong doing by man. Therapy, therapy, therapy - any other type of punishment is against their human rights. People don't really mean to do bad things, it is every excuse under the sun for them except that maybe these people just want to commit crimes. It is from a very young age that humans know the difference between right and wrong, maybe not the level, but they know for certain sure when they are doing something wrong.
Against their human rights. What about the rights of the victims?
 
hermanntrude
#35
MOST humans learn right and wrong at an early age. some never learn at all.

I'm not suggesting we should put them in a comfy couch and ask them what their mother called them when they were 2, and which breast they were preferably fed from, i'm suggesting we a) try to work out what made them do something like that. you yourself suggested it must be something wrong with them b) see if there's anything can be done to fix it c) see if there's any way we can prevent it happening in other people. it's common damage limitation strategy.

And i DID say we should punish them. Damn right. bang 'em up.
 
whicker
#36
Quote: Originally Posted by hermanntrude View Post

for the same reason murderers arent killed (usually) and rapists arent raped. Emotional sentencing is not the way to go about it. I know it really is very upsetting that someone could do this. I honestly feel as bad about it as you do, I value the life and feelings of a dog too. I certainly don't believe the human race is "higher" than any other beast.

I just dont think we should be dealing out sentences based on feelings

This is the way sentencing is handled now - by emotion. The emotion is that a human is too valued to be punished according to the crime. I believe in the death sentence. Yes, I know that mistakes can be made and this is a sink sand punishment but, if the person is guilty beyond doubt of murder then that person should be eliminated from the human race if for no other reason then it won't be set free to murder someone else again. Rapists should be, again, lobotomized. A rapist rapes for the superior, in charge thrill it gives him and knowing that it can be done again and again with relatively minor consequences is his reward. Take that away and this criminal becomes harmless.
Compared to what I would hand out as punishment a lobotomy is the most humane treatment I would hand out.
Compared to what they are now, they might become useful citizens.
 
hermanntrude
#37
have u ever broken a law?

I have. And i think the punishment, had i been caught, would be PLENTY, thanks.

It's all too easy to shout "condemn the criminal! lobotomy!" but you have to empathise with the punished and realise a spell in prison is a BIG punishment.

relatively minor consequences for rape? what country do you live in???
 
whicker
#38
Quote: Originally Posted by hermanntrude View Post

MOST humans learn right and wrong at an early age. some never learn at all.

I'm not suggesting we should put them in a comfy couch and ask them what their mother called them when they were 2, and which breast they were preferably fed from, i'm suggesting we a) try to work out what made them do something like that. you yourself suggested it must be something wrong with them b) see if there's anything can be done to fix it c) see if there's any way we can prevent it happening in other people. it's common damage limitation strategy.

And i DID say we should punish them. Damn right. bang 'em up.

Yes, there is something wrong with them and no amount of 'damage limitation strategy' for them or others like them is going to help. The way I see it is that, if you are a responsible animal person/breeder and you produce offspring that go against the given characteristics of the breed then you don't continue breeding them or when you have a sick (in mind or body) animal, or an animal that goes against the rules as laid out by humans you get rid of it, hopefully in a humane way.

Sorry, human beings are a sore topic for me and I can get rather severe in the way that I would deal with actions and consequences.
 
hermanntrude
#39
Quote:

Yes, there is something wrong with them and no amount of 'damage limitation strategy' for them or others like them is going to help.

I disagree. I think it can be helped. and even if in some cases it can't we should at least try

Quote:

The way I see it is that, if you are a responsible animal person/breeder and you produce offspring that go against the given characteristics of the breed then you don't continue breeding them or when you have a sick (in mind or body) animal, or an animal that goes against the rules as laid out by humans you get rid of it, hopefully in a humane way.

Again, i disagree. I think the death penalty (discussed in another thread), or any penalty which violates people's bodies is wrong. especially for crimes less than multiple rape and murder. and yes killing a dog, even in this horrible manner, is less of a crime than multiple rape and murder.

Quote:

Sorry, human beings are a sore topic for me and I can get rather severe in the way that I would deal with actions and consequences.

you needn't apologise. But it seems to me you're using your emotions and i am using logic.
 
dude1981
#40
Quote: Originally Posted by whicker View Post

Yes, there is something wrong with them and no amount of 'damage limitation strategy' for them or others like them is going to help. The way I see it is that, if you are a responsible animal person/breeder and you produce offspring that go against the given characteristics of the breed then you don't continue breeding them or when you have a sick (in mind or body) animal, or an animal that goes against the rules as laid out by humans you get rid of it, hopefully in a humane way.

Sorry, human beings are a sore topic for me and I can get rather severe in the way that I would deal with actions and consequences.


Hey, what they did totally sucked. no question. But they're still kids.They can be redeemed. funny older people get more upright about animals getting hurt than people.
 
whicker
#41
Quote: Originally Posted by hermanntrude View Post

have u ever broken a law?

I have. And i think the punishment, had i been caught, would be PLENTY, thanks.

It's all too easy to shout "condemn the criminal! lobotomy!" but you have to empathise with the punished and realise a spell in prison is a BIG punishment.

relatively minor consequences for rape? what country do you live in???

Depends on what you want to call crime - when I was younger I think shop lifting was the extent of my spree. As I got older I got to scared to do anything and now that I am old I just keep hoping that I don't do something that will be considered breaking the law as I know I definitley wouldn't like the consequences.

What are the consequences to the rapist in Canada? If the case gets beyond the (under-current) 'the woman was asking for it' mentality of the courts.

How much empathy is spent on the victims? Aside from the fact that the persons in prison are not in public and being allowed to commit whatever act they choose just how is being treated better than we treat our vets and senior citizens a BIG punishment?
 
whicker
#42
Quote: Originally Posted by dude1981 View Post

Hey, what they did totally sucked. no question. But they're still kids.They can be redeemed. funny older people get more upright about animals getting hurt than people.

They're still kids!!! At what age would you hold them responsible? And, if they are carrying out this type of action at this age and showing total disregard for their actions what makes you think they are redeemable, aside from the fact that they are humans?
If an animal did this to a human - dog attack on a child - who would not be screaming for the dog to be put down? About the only thing an animal can do is attack a human and for the most part it is not premeditated.
 
dude1981
#43
Quote: Originally Posted by whicker View Post

They're still kids!!! At what age would you hold them responsible? And, if they are carrying out this type of action at this age and showing total disregard for their actions what makes you think they are redeemable, aside from the fact that they are humans?
If an animal did this to a human - dog attack on a child - who would not be screaming for the dog to be put down? About the only thing an animal can do is attack a human and for the most part it is not premeditated.


Easy killer.It's just a dog. Kids can be changed you know, or do you think that if you do something at 10 you're set in stone for the whole rest of your life?
 
hermanntrude
#44
i'm not sure of the exact sentencing guidelines for rape, but when it's proven I know that in most countries, at least 5 years is likely. And it won't be much fun inside either. As for the "women are asking for it" mentality, I suspect you are a victim of the media. Various sources really like to big up one side of the argument (usually the case for the defence) in order to make their readers/listeners/viewers get really upset and phone in and make a lively discussion or get really riled up about it. This makes good "entertainment".

the thing is that in the courts there's always going to be someone who stands up for the criminal (assuming there is one), because there has to be, by law, and often the tactics used are underhand, such as to suggest that the victim somehow "asked for it". the news people report that side of things, everyone gets riled up, then it's proven that the guy didnt do it, due to a sound alibi or DNA testing or something, that doesnt get reported, everyone decides they know best because they saw the news and some poor guy gets bricks through his windows every night for the rest of his life. the newsgroup continues to make profits.

We all empathise instantly with the victims, it's impossible not to. I winced as soon as i read the title of the thread. I felt horrible for the dog. I felt the same anger you do. and yes i'd probably feel some satisfaction at seeing the bastards skewered for it. But that's why u and I aren't judges and don't make the law.

as for vets and senior citizens, you would expect their families and friends to care for them, not the prisons
 
whicker
#45
I disagree. I think it can be helped. and even if in some cases it can't we should at least try
Seems to me these boys have shown beyond doubt that they really don't care - aside from the fact that they were caught.

Again, i disagree. I think the death penalty (discussed in another thread), or any penalty which violates people's bodies is wrong. especially for crimes less than multiple rape and murder. and yes killing a dog, even in this horrible manner, is less of a crime than multiple rape and murder.
I suppose killing an animal is less of a crime because it is only an animal and not as important in the human scheme of events.
You keep going on about the violation of the purpetrator and that is the way society in general thinks. I prefer to think more about the violation of the victims and how wrong that is. Two wrongs don't make a right but at least the offender, with lobotomy, wouldn't be able to commit premeditated crimes again - if at all.

you needn't apologise. But it seems to me you're using your emotions and i am using logic.
I think getting rid of a person's ability to think, plan, organize and carry out a crime is perfectly logical and most humane.
 
whicker
#46
It has been interesting chatting with you but unfortunately I have to get ready to go to work. I will post later.
Thanks
 
dude1981
#47
Quote: Originally Posted by whicker View Post

I disagree. I think it can be helped. and even if in some cases it can't we should at least try
Seems to me these boys have shown beyond doubt that they really don't care - aside from the fact that they were caught.

Again, i disagree. I think the death penalty (discussed in another thread), or any penalty which violates people's bodies is wrong. especially for crimes less than multiple rape and murder. and yes killing a dog, even in this horrible manner, is less of a crime than multiple rape and murder.
I suppose killing an animal is less of a crime because it is only an animal and not as important in the human scheme of events.
You keep going on about the violation of the purpetrator and that is the way society in general thinks. I prefer to think more about the violation of the victims and how wrong that is. Two wrongs don't make a right but at least the offender, with lobotomy, wouldn't be able to commit premeditated crimes again - if at all.

you needn't apologise. But it seems to me you're using your emotions and i am using logic.
I think getting rid of a person's ability to think, plan, organize and carry out a crime is perfectly logical and most humane.


I am not sorry. I think you're over-reacting.It was very cruel what these dudes did,but they are still little kids and I believe they can be taught right from wrong. I don't think it is fair to make the dog equal to people. People that do that are not totally well balanced.
 
hermanntrude
#48
Seems to me these boys have shown beyond doubt that they really don't care - aside from the fact that they were caught. that doesnt mean they never will care. after a spell in prison it might get through their thick skulls that they should. They aren't beyond redemption


I suppose killing an animal is less of a crime because it is only an animal and not as important in the human scheme of events.
You keep going on about the violation of the purpetrator and that is the way society in general thinks. I prefer to think more about the violation of the victims and how wrong that is. Two wrongs don't make a right but at least the offender, with lobotomy, wouldn't be able to commit premeditated crimes again - if at all. Killing a dog is less serious than killing a man because a) a man will live for longer b) a man is sentient, intelligent (more so than the dog), and c) is more similar to the offender, which makes it a more shocking breach of logical morals. Also we have to face the fact that the laws are laid down by people and not animals. Maybe there IS a case for making the dog's life worth more in the eyes of the law, but that's another thread altogether.

I think getting rid of a person's ability to think, plan, organize and carry out a crime is perfectly logical and most humane. I think getting rid of a persons ability to think plan and organise EVERYTHING (not just crimes) is a serious violation, very cruel and rather reactionist
 
mapleleafgirl
#49
Quote: Originally Posted by dude1981 View Post

I am not sorry. I think you're over-reacting.It was very cruel what these dudes did,but they are still little kids and I believe they can be taught right from wrong. I don't think it is fair to make the dog equal to people. People that do that are not totally well balanced.

oh come on. youre being wacked and you know it. who cried when mr.sparkle died from the poison the neighbour gave him? he was just a dog after all....youre being phoney.
 
mapleleafgirl
#50
Quote: Originally Posted by dude1981 View Post

Hey, what they did totally sucked. no question. But they're still kids.They can be redeemed. funny older people get more upright about animals getting hurt than people.


okay, i agree with you here. these kids obviously need help and maybe to be taken away from their parents cos obviously the parents arent doing their job.
 
L Gilbert
#51
Yeah, the whole thing kinda makes me wonder what sort of parents these kids have. Really twisted maybe?
 
mapleleafgirl
#52
Quote: Originally Posted by L Gilbert View Post

Yeah, the whole thing kinda makes me wonder what sort of parents these kids have. Really twisted maybe?

hey, i know im young and all that, but these kids are like 10 right..so at that age it has to be the parents fault they are that way..at least in part.
 
marygaspe
#53
Quote: Originally Posted by mapleleafgirl View Post

oh come on. youre being wacked and you know it. who cried when mr.sparkle died from the poison the neighbour gave him? he was just a dog after all....youre being phoney.

Well dude1981, how nice is it to be on the same forum as your older sister? hah hah hah
 
whicker
#54
Quote: Originally Posted by dude1981 View Post

Hey, what they did totally sucked. no question. But they're still kids.They can be redeemed. funny older people get more upright about animals getting hurt than people.

They are not kids, they knew better and somehow I don't think those that find no wrong in what they do want to be 'redeemed'.
I would hand out the same punishment to those that abuse anything that is helpless but this topic is about animals.
 
whicker
#55
Quote: Originally Posted by dude1981 View Post

I am not sorry. I think you're over-reacting.It was very cruel what these dudes did,but they are still little kids and I believe they can be taught right from wrong. I don't think it is fair to make the dog equal to people. People that do that are not totally well balanced.

Again, they are NOT kids and they know right from wrong and chose to torture and kill and enjoy the death of this animal.
I am not making the dog equal to people as in some cases that is an insult to the animal. What we are talking about is punishment for the crime and I would do the same if a helpless person were involved.
 
whicker
#56
quote=hermanntrude;785481 i'm not sure of the exact sentencing guidelines for rape, but when it's proven I know that in most countries, at least 5 years is likely. And it won't be much fun inside either. As for the "women are asking for it" mentality, I suspect you are a victim of the media. Various sources really like to big up one side of the argument (usually the case for the defence) in order to make their readers/listeners/viewers get really upset and phone in and make a lively discussion or get really riled up about it. This makes good "entertainment".
No, I don't follow media hype. Hubby gets mad at me but, for the most part (generalization here) men still figure that when a woman gets raped she asked for it in one form or another.

the thing is that in the courts there's always going to be someone who stands up for the criminal (assuming there is one), because there has to be, by law, (Made for by lawyers for profit but this is another pet peeve of mine) and often the tactics used are underhand, such as to suggest that the victim somehow "asked for it". the news people report that side of things, everyone gets riled up, then it's proven that the guy didnt do it, due to a sound alibi or DNA testing or something, that doesnt get reported, everyone decides they know best because they saw the news and some poor guy gets bricks through his windows every night for the rest of his life. the newsgroup continues to make profits.
The media should be muzzled for the most part as their coverage of events is created /skewed for profit and has ruined many a life . They really know how to flog a dead horse.

We all empathise instantly with the victims, it's impossible not to. I winced as soon as i read the title of the thread. I felt horrible for the dog. I felt the same anger you do. and yes i'd probably feel some satisfaction at seeing the bastards skewered for it. But that's why u and I aren't judges and don't make the law.
Judges are not the omnipotents they like to make themselves out to be and should be held accountable for the stupid and inane and just clueless ways the courts are run.

as for vets and senior citizens, you would expect their families and friends to care for them, not the prisons
Guess I didn't get the context right here. More money is spent per prisoner than is even thought of being spent for vets and seniors. Why should good money go after bad when there are better places for it to be spent. And, we won't go to what families should do and not do with this group of people.
 
Libra Girl
#57
Quote: Originally Posted by dude1981 View Post

Easy killer.It's just a dog.

It's just a dog? Well, that speaks volumes...


Quote: Originally Posted by dude1981 View Post

Kids can be changed you know, or do you think that if you do something at 10 you're set in stone for the whole rest of your life?

Since when did 10 equate to 17 and 19? These were not kids! They are young men! The crime that they committed wasn't a spontaneous act, over in 5 minutes; The torture of that dog must have taken a good hour and a half!
 

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