Who was correct, Jews or Christians? Was Eden our elevation or our fall?


French Patriot
-1
#1
Who was correct, Jews or Christians? Was Eden our elevation or our fall?

The Jewish view. http://www.mrrena.com/misc/judaism2.php

“Instead of the Fall of man (in the sense of humanity as a whole), Judaism preaches the Rise of man: and instead of Original Sin, it stresses Original Virtue”

In a nutshell, the Jews saw man acquiring a moral sense equal to God’s, --- as man being elevated.

Gen 3; 22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

The Christian view sees the same story and preaches our fal land all of us inheriting our forefather’s sin. http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/dictionaries/dict_meaning.php?source=1&wid=T0001304

“They prove the loss not only of innocence but of original righteousness, and, with it, of the favour and fellowship of God.”

The Bible seems to favor the Jewish view.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV)The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice.[Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

Whose view is more intelligent and moral and why?

Regards
DL
 
cj44
#2
Frenchie, I do not think these verses are referring to original sin. They are referring to individual sin - every person is accountable to God based on what he/she does or does not do. John 9:1-3, As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” 3 “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

I thought Jewish people were aware of original sin. I will have to look into that as I do not know enough on the subject.

I think the question people have to ask themselves is Why am I/people unable to be and do good all the time? Why do humans lie, commit crime, war, etc. If our natures were sound, then there would not be such mayhem in the world. As a christian, I can say we do not view original sin as inheriting our forefathers individual sins. Rather our nature is sinful. You know by now my analogies stink. But, you also know that won't stop me from attempting to construct one. Here it goes - the nature of a fish is to swim, so it does. It doesn't one day think to itself, hmmm. I think I will go for a walk on the shore today. It doesn't think that because it - well because it is a stinking fish - it can't walk on the shore. We humans may think, hmmm, I would like to be good to all/not sin from this day forth. But our nature will not allow it. If we didn't have this sinful nature, then we should have the ability to be sinless. I know a lot of nice people, but not a one of them is sinless.

Also, if we look at all of nature - it's a mess. Disease, disorder, animals hunting each other. When Jesus wraps it all up, the lion will lay beside the lamb and not rip its head off. Won't that be nice?
 
French Patriot
#3
cj44

I understand your analogy quite well and agree that sin is a part of our nature. Happily it is a small part that only comes out as required.

Let me give you a copy of an O P I did a while back that might help here.

First, remember that what you see in this first link could not happen if we were predominantly evil instead of predominantly good.

Hans Rosling's 200 Countries, 200 Years, 4 Minutes - The Joy of Stats - BBC Four - YouTube

=================

Can you help but do evil? Ido not see how. Do you?

And if you cannot, why wouldGod punish you?

Christians are always tryingto absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their freewill argument and placing all the blame on mankind.

That usually sounds like----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused ourfall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God'sculpability as the author and creator of human nature.

Free will is only the abilityto choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose"A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Evewould even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed bya serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie inthe nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable fordeliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "freewill" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all do evil/sin by naturethen, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some whowould not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Having said the above for theGod that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tellyou that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree withChristians, but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankind’sresponsibility and not some imaginary God’s. Free will is something that canonly be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has beenforcibly withheld.

Much has been written toexplain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate whatsome see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and areneither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims arecreated. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.

In secular courts, this iscalled mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court willnot find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of theact.

Evil then is only human tohuman when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.

As evolving creatures, all weever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.

Cooperation we would see asgood as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as itcreates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing,doing evil, at all times.

Without us doing some ofboth, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains whythere is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature,evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something toblame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanksfor being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, withoutevolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.

There is no conflict betweennature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all mustdo what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to thiscompetition.

These links speak to theisticevolution.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXOvYn1OAL0&list=UUDXjzOeZRqLxhYaaEhWLb_A& index=9

If theistic evolution istrue, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not reallyany original sin.

If the above is notconvincing enough for you then show me where in this baby evil lives or is apart of it’s nature and instincts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA

Can you help but do evil? Ido not see how. Do you?

And if you cannot, why wouldGod punish you?

Regards
D L
 
petros
#4
Hey French Parrot. Christians have sweet f*ck all use for the OT.
 
MHz
#5
Isa:40:15:
Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket,
and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold,
he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.

Before that though comes our bad news.

Isa:56:8-12:
The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith,
Yet will I gather others to him,
beside those that are gathered unto him.
All ye beasts of the field,
come to devour,
yea,
all ye beasts in the forest.
His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant,
they are all dumb dogs,
they cannot bark;
sleeping,
lying down, loving to slumber.
Yea,
they are greedy dogs which can never have enough,
and they are shepherds that cannot understand:
they all look to their own way,
every one for his gain,
from his quarter.
Come ye,
say they,
I will fetch wine,
and we will fill ourselves with strong drink;
and to morrow shall be as this day,
and much more abundant.

Jer:25:32-38:
Thus saith the LORD of hosts,
Behold,
evil shall go forth from nation to nation,
and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth:
they shall not be lamented,
neither gathered,
nor buried;
they shall be dung upon the ground.
Howl, ye shepherds,
and cry;
and wallow yourselves in the ashes,
ye principal of the flock:
for the days of your slaughter and of your dispersions are accomplished;
and ye shall fall like a pleasant vessel.
And the shepherds shall have no way to flee,
nor the principal of the flock to escape.
A voice of the cry of the shepherds,
and an howling of the principal of the flock,
shall be heard:
for the LORD hath spoiled their pasture.
And the peaceable habitations are cut down because of the fierce anger of the LORD.
He hath forsaken his covert,
as the lion:
for their land is desolate because of the fierceness of the oppressor,
and because of his fierce anger.

Zec:13:8-9:
And it shall come to pass,
that in all the land,
saith the LORD,
two parts therein shall be cut off and die;
but the third shall be left therein.
And I will bring the third part through the fire,
and will refine them as silver is refined,
and will try them as gold is tried:
they shall call on my name,
and I will hear them:
I will say,
It is my people:
and they shall say,
The LORD is my God.

Zec:14:16:
And it shall come to pass,
that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King,
the LORD of hosts,
and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Lu:24:27:
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets,
he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
 
EagleSmack
+2 / -1
#6
Behold....


The wildebeests crossing the Mara!




















 
Dexter Sinister
+1
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by French Patriot View Post

Who was correct, Jews or Christians?

Neither.

Quote: Originally Posted by petros View Post

Hey French Parrot. Christians have sweet f*ck all use for the OT.

I've heard quite a few of them cite it in support of their views on homosexuality as an abomination, and to justify keeping the Harry Potter books out of school libraries, and there are many posts from nominal Christians right here--#5 above for instance--that make extensive use of it. I'd say you're demonstrably wrong about that.
 
Cliffy
+1
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by cj44 View Post

John 9:1-3, As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” 3 “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

I take this to mean that reincarnation was a common belief at the time. Otherwise, why would the man be blind from birth if he had not be bad in his previous life.
 
MHz
#9
God intentionally made the man blind so his healing of said eyesight would be witnessed by some who would then become believers themselves. I assume the man gets to say a few words about that part 'a' of a plan 'ab'
 
Dexter Sinister
+1
#10
And what about all the blind who don't get healed, were born blind or lost their sight due to injury or disease? There's some divine lesson to be learned from them?
 
Cliffy
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by MHz View Post

God intentionally made the man blind so his healing of said eyesight would be witnessed by some who would then become believers themselves. I assume the man gets to say a few words about that part 'a' of a plan 'ab'

That is not the point. The apostle asked a question that could only be interpreted as meaning he believed in reincarnation. It was a common belief at the time.
 
petros
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter Sinister View Post

Neither.

I've heard quite a few of them cite it in support of their views on homosexuality as an abomination, and to justify keeping the Harry Potter books out of school libraries, and there are many posts from nominal Christians right here--#5 above for instance--that make extensive use of it. I'd say you're demonstrably wrong about that.

Born yesterdays aren't real Christians.

Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter Sinister View Post

And what about all the blind who don't get healed, were born blind or lost their sight due to injury or disease? There's some divine lesson to be learned from them?

Do you credit God for the good things or just what you perceive as bad?
 
MHz
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter Sinister View Post

And what about all the blind who don't get healed, were born blind or lost their sight due to injury or disease? There's some divine lesson to be learned from them?

'The plan' has that covered, only comes when the fixes can be enjoyed for eternity, doing that for the masses before that time would be break the prophecies.

Isa:42:9:
Behold,
the former things are come to pass,
and new things do I declare:
before they spring forth I tell you of them.

Jer:4:28:
For this shall the earth mourn,
and the heavens above be black:
because I have spoken it,
I have purposed it,
and will not repent,
neither will I turn back from it.

Isa:55:11:
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:
it shall not return unto me void,
but it shall accomplish that which I please,
and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Jer:31:8-9:
Behold,
I will bring them from the north country,
and gather them from the coasts of the earth,
and with them the blind and the lame,
the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together:
a great company shall return thither.
They shall come with weeping,
and with supplications will I lead them:
I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way,
wherein they shall not stumble:
for I am a father to Israel,
and Ephraim is my firstborn.
 
Sal
+1
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by MHz View Post

'The plan' has that covered, only comes when the fixes can be enjoyed for eternity, doing that for the masses before that time would be break the prophecies.

Are you saying you believe that God makes people, ill, blind, lame etc on purpose?
 
taxslave
+2
#15
[QUOTE=French Patriot;1835182] Who was correct, Jews or Christians? Was Eden our elevation or our fall?

[You think one myth is better than another?
 
Dexter Sinister
+2
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by petros View Post

Born yesterdays aren't real Christians.

And who are you to decide that? They certainly think they are, and would probably say the same about you.That argument's getting pretty tiresome, Christians behaving badly are derided by other Christians as being not real Christians, as if that gets the Christian belief system off the hook. That doesn't work.
Quote:

Do you credit God for the good things or just what you perceive as bad?

I don't credit god with anything, I'm convinced he's entirely fictional, and one of the nastiest characters to be found in fiction anywhere.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sal View Post

Are you saying you believe that God makes people, ill, blind, lame etc on purpose?

No other interpretation is possible.
 
Goober
+1
#17
Again and again I must remind you- What about hockey.
 
petros
-1
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter Sinister View Post

And who are you to decide that? They certainly think they are, and would probably say the same about you.

And they would be wrong and i'd be right. My beliefs are the original beliefs that haven't been altered by a king or heretic with an agenda that goes outside of the original beliefs.

Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter Sinister View Post

I don't credit god with anything, I'm convinced he's entirely fictional, and one of the nastiest characters to be found in fiction anywhere.

What makes you believe it's fiction?
 
Dexter Sinister
#19
And again, they would say the same thing about you. But there's no possibility you could be wrong, you alone, or perhaps you and whatever group of Christians you belong to, have figured out Jesus' original message and intentions. That sort of casual arrogance is one of the things that's wrong with religious belief.
 
petros
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter Sinister View Post

And again, they would say the same thing about you. But there's no possibility you could be wrong, you alone, or perhaps you and whatever group of Christians you belong to, have figured out Jesus' original message and intentions. That sort of casual arrogance is one of the things that's wrong with religious belief.

Jesus' message is clear as a bell and always has been to those who didn't waiver or follow a heretic.

I'm still waiting on your reasoning as to why God is a fiction.

What do you call the energy that turns matter into living self-aware, conscious beings or makes a crystal grow?
 
MHz
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by Sal View Post

Are you saying you believe that God makes people, ill, blind, lame etc on purpose?

No, I'm saying He can't correct it for some and not include all others. Israel is going to be resurrected to their full strength, on that same day the Gentile Church is also given the same reward so you cannot have one without the other. The current gathering of Jews in Israel is promoted as having God involved, if the Gentile Church is not also gathered the the Jews have not been gathered by God. The concept is easy to grasp, a bit harder to accept but is true none the less. The judgment if sinners means they are dead before any resurrection takes place that would literally fulfill the resurrection described in Eze:37.

Zec:13:8:
And it shall come to pass,
that in all the land,
saith the LORD,
two parts therein shall be cut off and die;
but the third shall be left therein.
Zec:13:9:
And I will bring the third part through the fire,
and will refine them as silver is refined,
and will try them as gold is tried:
they shall call on my name,
and I will hear them:
I will say,
It is my people:
and they shall say,
The LORD is my God.
 
petros
#22
Quote:

No, I'm saying He can't correct it for some and not include all others. Israel is going to be resurrected to their full strength, on that same day the Gentile Church is also given the same reward so you cannot have one without the other.

. Israel or Judea? We know God doesn't think too highly of Judea (Jews) or he wouldn't have sent Jesus to proclaim a New Testament would he?
 
Dexter Sinister
+1
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by petros View Post

Jesus' message is clear as a bell and always has been to those who didn't waiver or follow a heretic.

Sure, assuming he was who he's claimed to be. But I don't buy that claim, as you'll see next.
Quote:

I'm still waiting on your reasoning as to why God is a fiction.

Don't recall you asking for it, but it's pretty simple and I've said it here before: the evidence and arguments offered in support of the claim that he exists and has certain characteristics are insufficient to justify accepting the claim as true, so I don't. In the absence of positive evidence, doubt is the default position.
Quote:

What do you call the energy that turns matter into living self-aware, conscious beings or makes a crystal grow?

Why would I need to call it anything but energy? As a geologist you should certainly know there are perfectly satisfactory naturalistic explanations for crystal growth, and as for the other point, there's a lot we don't know yet about how that works, there's a lot we don't know about a lot of things, but saying god did it doesn't explain anything, it just avoids trying to find an explanation. End of the research program.
 
MHz
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter Sinister View Post

I don't credit god with anything, I'm convinced he's entirely fictional, and one of the nastiest characters to be found in fiction anywhere.

What is you thoughts on the wreckage of the 737 in Russian and Flight 93 in terms of wreckage left behind? I see is the ultimate proof to 9/11 being nothing but a false flag operation committed by America on Americans and no fiction included.

Meaning you would prefer if He doesn't make an appearance in your town anytime soon.
There is no 'demand' that a person read and have faith trough that exercise. Proof is said to be available for about 3 1/2 years before any judgments take place and even then it is only about who is alive for the 1,000 year reign and who has to wait for the GWT before they are given that same reward. (gift)

If God says we should forgive people their sins at 70 x 7 times or 490 times. If God did less 'sins' in the OT are we to forgive Him? No it is up to the persons that He sinned against to forgive Him.. How many of those sins were done as a teaching tool for Christ and that He will use all those skills on the day the 7th trump sounds in the mission to eliminate sin and death from the earth once and for all times. The fire that burnt Sodom didn't solve any OT problem but it did allow Christ to have the skill to use that same fire to burn Satan's Babylon and send several angelic being into the fiery lake. All the ones God killed in the OT (including the ones that were drowned by the flood are gathered again and given life in the New Earth.` The (beheaded) for the word of God section in Re:20:4 even covers the resurrection of the 12 Tribes.

Joh:5:19:
Then answered Jesus and said unto them,
Verily,
verily,
I say unto you,
The Son can do nothing of himself,
but what he seeth the Father do:
for what things soever he doeth,
these also doeth the Son likewise.

Eze:39:23:
And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity:
because they trespassed against me,
therefore hid I my face from them,
and gave them into the hand of their enemies:
so fell they all by the sword.


Eze:37:9:
Then said he unto me,
Prophesy unto the wind,
prophesy,
son of man,
and say to the wind,
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Come from the four winds,
O breath,
and breathe upon these slain,
that they may live.

Eze:37:10:
So I prophesied as he commanded me,
and the breath came into them,
and they lived,
and stood up upon their feet,
an exceeding great army.

Quote: Originally Posted by petros View Post

. Israel or Judea? We know God doesn't think too highly of Judea (Jews) or he wouldn't have sent Jesus to proclaim a New Testament would he?

The whole House of Israel.

Eze:37:16-17-19:
Moreover,
thou son of man,
take thee one stick,
and write upon it,
For Judah,
and for the children of Israel his companions:
then take another stick,
and write upon it,
For Joseph,
the stick of Ephraim,
and for all the house of Israel his companions:
And join them one to another into one stick;
and they shall become one in thine hand.
And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying,
Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
Say unto them,
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Behold,
I will take the stick of Joseph,
which is in the hand of Ephraim,
and the tribes of Israel his fellows,
and will put them with him,
even with the stick of Judah,
and make them one stick,
and they shall be one in mine hand.

Judea had to exist and being born in that land made then a Jew, Judea ceased to be in 70AD so that is when the last Jews were born a Jew. The verse below applied to Gentile standing on the area that is calle Judea in the Bible, it is not a reference to any remannat of the 12 Tribes,

M't:24:15-17:
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,
spoken of by Daniel the prophet,
stand in the holy place,
(whoso readeth, let him understand
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

Re:11:9:
And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half,
and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
 
petros
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter Sinister View Post

Sure, assuming he was who he's claimed to be. But I don't buy that claim, as you'll see next. Don't recall you asking for it, but it's pretty simple and I've said it here before: the evidence and arguments offered in support of the claim that he exists and has certain characteristics are insufficient to justify accepting the claim as true, so I don't. In the absence of positive evidence, doubt is the default position.Why would I need to call it anything but energy? As a geologist you should certainly know there are perfectly satisfactory naturalistic explanations for crystal growth, and as for the other point, there's a lot we don't know yet about how that works, there's a lot we don't know about a lot of things, but saying god did it doesn't explain anything, it just avoids trying to find an explanation. End of the research program.

You have definitive proof Jesus wasn't who he claimed to be or is it based on
Quote: Originally Posted by petros View Post

What makes you believe it's fiction?

Gibbs couldn't nail the how and why, only approximations and potentials of the growth of crystals.

From Laplace to Einstein to Planck to Heisenberg to Hawking are all baffled at randomness and probabilities.

Without the consciousness of the observer there is nothing is there? How does the mind pull it all together and why?

Einstein said it best "God doesn't play dice".
 
darkbeaver
+3
#26  Top Rated Post
The word blind in scriptural allegory does not mean physically blind but does mean ignorant, without understanding,not illuminated.
Of course the sins of the fathers follow the children, poverty begets poverty, pride begets pride, mistakes are replicated ignorance is passed on. None of the old scriptures taken literally will get you anywhere but kneeling before a false idol. AMEN
 
Spade
#27
What, even the Enuma Elish?
 
Sal
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by MHz View Post

No, I'm saying He can't correct it for some and not include all others.

yet apparently, he did.


Quote:

Israel is going to be resurrected to their full strength, on that same day the Gentile Church is also given the same reward so you cannot have one without the other. The current gathering of Jews in Israel is promoted as having God involved, if the Gentile Church is not also gathered the the Jews have not been gathered by God. The concept is easy to grasp, a bit harder to accept but is true none the less. The judgment if sinners means they are dead before any resurrection takes place that would literally fulfill the resurrection described in Eze:37.

say you such as you believe

Quote:

Zec:13:8:
And it shall come to pass,
that in all the land,
saith the LORD,
two parts therein shall be cut off and die;
but the third shall be left therein.
Zec:13:9:
And I will bring the third part through the fire,
and will refine them as silver is refined,
and will try them as gold is tried:
they shall call on my name,
and I will hear them:
I will say,
It is my people:
and they shall say,
The LORD is my God.

yes but my God is different, I know him on a personal basis and this that you quote is not him.
 
MHz
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by Sal View Post

yet apparently, he did.


say you such as you believe

yes but my God is different, I know him on a personal basis and this that you quote is not him.

Under the signs following rule, healed of an infliction yet not spared from the grave. It was done to show the person healing people was sent by God, it was not a reward for righteous living.

M'r:16:17-18:
And these signs shall follow them that believe;
In my name shall they cast out devils;
they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents;
and if they drink any deadly thing,
it shall not hurt them;
they shall lay hands on the sick,
and they shall recover
.
 
Sal
+1
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by MHz View Post

Under the signs following rule, healed of an infliction yet not spared from the grave. It was done to show the person healing people was sent by God, it was not a reward for righteous living.

there is no reward via God for living righteously other than drawing to us what we put out...that is the law of the universe, thus it is the law of what you call God.

Christ also tells us that as we believe so shall it be done and we are capable of doing greater than he did, he told us this.