What the "Have Not" Provinces Get


Cabbagesandking
No Party Affiliation
#31
Quote: Originally Posted by captain morgan View Post

What BS; I don't believe for one minute that you can say that and state that you were "very much involved".

Me, I was a kid when it hit, but had a lot of family that were industry players. To this day, I come into contact with a number of former AB companies that fled to Oklahoma and Colorado when PET announced his intentions. They set up shop there and developed resource plays that are ongoing to this day, they still talk about the damage that NEP did and how it prematurely drove the industry (and the rigs) South.

BTW - I notice that you didn't comment on the notion that the Canadian Feds were buying Venezuelan (and US) crude at global market prices to make up for the short-fall in that period of time prior to the global collapse.... Is that reality a little too inconvenient in suggesting that the industry was foundering in Canada prior to the global recession? Maybe it undermines your 'insurance industry experience' that the Canadian rigs were just parked in a field to rust as opposed to contracting to US based companies.

How about it? Got an answer?




That is no justification for a reversion back to immaturity and dependence.





Still entitled to your entitlements, are you? The only people that are 'insisting' on poverty are those that make the decision to remain in an untenable situation.

If you demand to live in an area that has no potable water available, don't piss and moan about the lack of water and demand that someone thousands of miles away fix that problem... Man-up and move on, that is the way that Canada was built



For your convenience, I'll repost just for you:



I don't buy the insurance schtick as any kind of rebuttal to the relative increase in US E&P in those couple of years prior to NEP in Canada.

And I do not buy that you have family wo were industry players. But I know what I know from direct experience.

Why would I answer about Venezuelan oil? It is entirely irrelevant. The NEP was conceived as a response to the oil crises of the 1970's and to the looming recession whose beginnings were already evident and severe with unemployment rates higher than they are now before the Recession officially began.

It was also designed to provide security for Canada's needs. Don't you know how Venezuelan oil fitted into that?

Your snide accusations about others and their "entitlements," btw, are simply bunk. There are entitlements that come with citizenship and that is why your province received support as needed.
 
captain morgan
Bloc Québécois
#32
Direct experience, huh?.. Well, assuming that you would seek an objective analysis, and yes, I know that is asking for the impossible; you can easily take a look at the increased activity registered with the applicable state resource/mineral boards in select US jurisdictions and compare that to the fading land sales, production declines and diminished exploration plays in the WCSB (although I doubt that you even know what that acronym is)... And all this prior to the official and formal institution of the NEP

For an insurance pro, you'd appreciate that actuarials don't lie, but somehow you'll find a way to stretch it as a freak coincidence.

Venezuelan AND US crude fitted in as it was required to compensate for the decline in WCSB crude available for Canada (hint: the supply contracts to outside demand made from Canadian companies were still in effect). PET was forced to buy crude from foreign sources on a more aggressive basis, pay global market prices and sell to Cdns at below market... All using debt to cover the margin of his already failed policy despite it not even being in full effect yet.

As far as your comments on snide remarks on 'entitlements'... You are without question the poster-boy for that ideal. The comments I make are simply a reflection of that ideal that your espouse with such gusto.
Last edited by captain morgan; Jul 4th, 2012 at 11:48 PM..
 
jariax
+2
#33
Quote: Originally Posted by Locutus View Post

Every year, 'have' provinces like Saskatchewan and Alberta send billions in tax dollars to 'have not' provinces like Ontario and Quebec.




A little research into 2012 Population Estimates reveals some more interesting information:


more

Equalization Program

https://www.facebook.com/sunnewsnetwork

via sda: small dead animals: What the "Have Not" Provinces Get

See, this is the reason that I moved to Ontario.
We were a have-province for decades, and paid our equalization formula without complaint

But the second Ontario becomes a have-not province, the whiny West has a need to declare itself hard-done-by and start talks about separation. Basically, it all amounts to "I have a bunch of money, and I don't want to share"
 
TenPenny
+1
#34
Quote: Originally Posted by captain morgan View Post




...And?... I'm not interested in the global rig count of active units when the downturn hit.
.

I know that you're not interested in facts or reality, it makes your life much easier when you can ignore anything that doesn't fit your politics. Carry on, you're quite amusing.
 
captain morgan
Bloc Québécois
#35
Quote: Originally Posted by TenPenny View Post

I know that you're not interested in facts or reality, it makes your life much easier when you can ignore anything that doesn't fit your politics. Carry on, you're quite amusing.


Didn't pick up on the important part of my post, didja einstein or maybe you did look into the rig count by nation and/or look at the comparative land sales and corresponding active between Canada and the US in relation to the year or 2 prior to NEP being officially in place?
 
TenPenny
#36
Quote: Originally Posted by captain morgan View Post

  1. Ship across the globe up the St Larry (couldn't transport them via rail through the Rockies due to the terrain and size of units)
  2. Rail across Canada
  3. .

Speaking of playing the fool, why would the Chinese ship stuff around the globe and up the St Lawrence? The big stuff either goes straight across the Pacific and up into Idaho by barge, where it's transloaded, or else it goes up the Mississippi by barge to be transloaded.

Quote: Originally Posted by captain morgan View Post

Didn't pick up on the important part of my post, didja einstein or maybe you did look into the rig count by nation and/or look at the comparative land sales and corresponding active between Canada and the US in relation to the year or 2 prior to NEP being officially in place?

Did you look at the active rigs by nation?
 
captain morgan
Bloc Québécois
+1
#37
Quote: Originally Posted by TenPenny View Post

Speaking of playing the fool,

... And you magically show up. Big surprise there.

Quote: Originally Posted by TenPenny View Post

why would the Chinese ship stuff around the globe and up the St Lawrence? The big stuff either goes straight across the Pacific and up into Idaho by barge, where it's transloaded, or else it goes up the Mississippi by barge to be transloaded.

You ought to call up the Chinese mfgr and tell 'em they made a mistake.

I could care less why, the fact is that this is what they were forced to do.


Quote: Originally Posted by TenPenny View Post

Did you look at the active rigs by nation?

Ummmm... Weren't you the guy that took such pride in quoting RigZone on the global stats? If memory serves, you used this as your irrefutable evidence that because global activity was down, that this somehow commented on the inability of rigs to move south from Canada to contract to US customers
 
JLM
No Party Affiliation
+2
#38
[QUOTE=TenPenny;1614431][/LIST]Speaking of playing the fool, why would the Chinese ship stuff around the globe and up the St Lawrence? The big stuff either goes straight across the Pacific and up into Idaho by barge, where it's transloaded, or else it goes up the Mississippi by barge to be transloaded.



QUOTE]

Via which river is stuff barged into Idaho from the Pacific Ocean?
 
BruSan
+1 / -1
#39
It is my firm belief this "you're getting some of my pudding" crap from the western provinces is a relatively new thing.

In my time of living on Vancouver Island in the early sixties, I cannot recall where this was ever a topic of discussion among working folk or politicians seeking to make talking point cred's. While hunting in the norther B.C. Interior and meeting with any and all from Alberta and B.C. it was also never a point of contention over beers in the bars.

While growing up and later, after moving back to Ontario I also don't have any recall of my father or any working stiff making a whine out of Ontario or Quebec sending money to Ottawa only to have it parcelled out east or west. Perhaps that generation being comprised significantly of veterans who were willing to sacrifice to assist those suffering oppression, I suppose it goes without saying they would never have engaged in this mindnumbing bullcrap about being unfairly supporting one province or another during times of need.

Your legislators weren't whining when it was done ad-hoc or when this thing was designed and at the time they stood to gain markedly were they?

I understand the concept of welching on a debt so am not surprised that now that you're having to pay a little instead of always getting a little, you want the rules of the game changed. Typical snivelling card cheat behaviour.
 
taxslave
Free Thinker
+1 / -1
#40
The theory that Quebec and/or Ontario carried the west in the past is pure BS. They treated the west as a colony to rape and pillage with laws such as the Crow freight rate to keep the west poor and a supplier of resources for their rich manufacturers.
 
JLM
No Party Affiliation
#41
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslave View Post

The theory that Quebec and/or Ontario carried the west in the past is pure BS. They treated the west as a colony to rape and pillage with laws such as the Crow freight rate to keep the west poor and a supplier of resources for their rich manufacturers.

Yep, I think that entire attitude was encapsulated in one little finger!
 
BruSan
+1
#42
No one is saying we carried you; no one over here is complaining. What about that don't you understand? The whining is coming from over there!

Yeah that Crow (Crow'snest pass) freight rate was nothing to be proud of but then who put up the money for the railroads to go west in the first place eh? How did you get your grain to the large population centers without those rails running east to your markets? This game of hate has no end if you insist of playing it in the same manner generation after generation.

I do remember for years listening to folks out there make the "Conservative" case and even conjure up a Preston Manning ~ now you got what you wanted and whoopsy, it's not going according to plan so it's gotta still be Ontario/Quebec's fault.

Where does this have a friendly ending in your eyes? Separation only?
 
taxslave
Free Thinker
+1
#43
Quote: Originally Posted by BruSan View Post

No one is saying we carried you; no one over here is complaining. What about that don't you understand? The whining is coming from over there!

Yeah that Crow (Crow'snest pass) freight rate was nothing to be proud of but then who put up the money for the railroads to go west in the first place eh? How did you get your grain to the large population centers without those rails running east to your markets? This game of hate has no end if you insist of playing it in the same manner generation after generation.

I do remember for years listening to folks out there make the "Conservative" case and even conjure up a Preston Manning ~ now you got what you wanted and whoopsy, it's not going according to plan so it's gotta still be Ontario/Quebec's fault.

Where does this have a friendly ending in your eyes? Separation only?

When Quebec and to a lessor extent Ontario stand on their own feet. I believe in a hand UP, not a hand out. Fools like Mulcair are just stirring the pot with false claims of Dutch Disease. Fact is between taxes and fees and unions manufacturing priced itself out of the market. Much the same as sawmills in BC.
Are you aware that there are marketing board rules that protect dairy farmers in Ontario and Quebec that force farmers in BC to dump milk on the ground because they can not buy a quota?

The only reason the easterners wanted a railway to the West was for exploitation purposes. They were afraid the west would join the US and wanted to stake a firm claim on the goodies.
Not much grain grain in the west. That would be the middle east.
 
Cabbagesandking
No Party Affiliation
#44
Everything you are whining about, captain, was from the world oil situation. It had nothing to do with the NEP which was a necessary and effective way of dealing with that situation. That the pricing changed and hurt Alberta (and Canada, btw) is not a fault of the NEP. Further, all the figures bandied about by the Western "we want in" crowd, the Mannings et al, are fraudulent. The changing situation meant that the effects of the NEP were long gone before it was cancelled.
And those rigs were idle down South: land sales are irrelevant, particularly those of a couple of years earlier BEFORE oil prices collapsed.

I am not responding to your sneers about "entitlements." I have to put that down to selfishness and self regard.

Your posts are massive piles of coprolite.

The same victimization mantras apply to the postings about the Crows' Nest Pass freight agreement. They are almost funny coming from those who are most vocal in their derogatory comments about Quebec.

The Crows' rates were an agreement that, rates for freight going East would be reduced in return for financing the line that opened up the Kootenays. It also reduced rates for settlers going West and was the reason some of you complainers are out there.

Long before the Agreement was rescinded it had ceased to be a revenue producer for the Railway. It had no deleterious effect on the West at any time. Just another in the litany of the immature.

Quote: Originally Posted by taxslave View Post

When Quebec and to a lessor extent Ontario stand on their own feet. I believe in a hand UP, not a hand out. Fools like Mulcair are just stirring the pot with false claims of Dutch Disease. Fact is between taxes and fees and unions manufacturing priced itself out of the market. Much the same as sawmills in BC.
Are you aware that there are marketing board rules that protect dairy farmers in Ontario and Quebec that force farmers in BC to dump milk on the ground because they can not buy a quota?

The only reason the easterners wanted a railway to the West was for exploitation purposes. They were afraid the west would join the US and wanted to stake a firm claim on the goodies.
Not much grain grain in the west. That would be the middle east.

I know paranoia is incurable, but, with thr right medications it can be controlled and the sufferer lead something akin to a normal life.

Call a psychiatrist.
 
petros
#45
"The Crow" was all about the GHTS
 
BruSan
+2
#46
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslave View Post

When Quebec and to a lessor extent Ontario stand on their own feet. I believe in a hand UP, not a hand out. Fools like Mulcair are just stirring the pot with false claims of Dutch Disease. Fact is between taxes and fees and unions manufacturing priced itself out of the market. Much the same as sawmills in BC.
Are you aware that there are marketing board rules that protect dairy farmers in Ontario and Quebec that force farmers in BC to dump milk on the ground because they can not buy a quota?

The only reason the easterners wanted a railway to the West was for exploitation purposes. They were afraid the west would join the US and wanted to stake a firm claim on the goodies.
Not much grain grain in the west. That would be the middle east.

I understand your point of us (Ontario and Quebec) standing on our own feet but WHY was that not OUR cry when we saw our tax dollars or any capital investment moving wetward for years? Surely you are not saying individual working stiffs in either of these two provinces approached the polls with a "let's rape the west" ethic. I cannot remember anyone of my peers ever hypothesizing "let's vote along party lines that will see us benefit while the west continues to get shafted". However; now it's become painfully obvious that this type of thinking patterns your very soul when thinking of anything east of Winnipeg.

You keep on with this Easterner crap with the railroads to bolster your surmisal we're all a bunch of pillagers who factored into our voting consciencenous every time we went to the voting boothes "oooh I'm voting for the party that will hose the west the most". Surely you must realize how absolutely rediculous that is? We may be guilty of ignorance but nothing more.

Your claim of easterners being afraid of you joining the U.S. is ludicrous in the extreme. Here we have somone proposing our thoughts were: "let's screw the west every which way from sunday to keep them Canadian but at the same time we'll throw bags of money at Quebec to keep them Canadian". How does that even begin to make any sense to you?

You're also ignoring the concept of elections and voting being national in make-up. Can you say with any real certainty how many of YOU westerners voted on what lines? Had you all fealt the way YOU in particular are portraying your population out there; is there not even the remotest possibility things would have been different? Where did old Preston go to anyway? AND where is Stockwell sitting right now? Harper has a majority; why is he not demanding all things East - West about equaliztion or anything you view as unfair to you be instantly re-negotiaited to right all these supposed wrongs?

I just don't get your one-sided arguments as having the traction you giving them.
 
JLM
No Party Affiliation
#47
TenPenny- I'm interested in hearing what route stuff is barged into Idaho from the Pacific Ocean. Who does the portaging up the Snake?
 
petros
#48
For you JLM
Quote:

Movement of the oil-refinery equipment along Washington highways is part of a larger effort by ExxonMobil and Imperial Oil to construct an oil-processing facility to develop the Kearl Oil Sands in Alberta, Canada.

The Port of Vancouver is a key link in those plans. The port began bringing in the oil-refinery equipment in October, when nine oil modules arrived, the first of 15 shiploads of an estimated 200 pieces of oil sands refinery equipment. The import operation will last through July. Some of the giant modules weigh as much as 155 tons.

The operation calls for both barging and trucking the modules to their destination. Theresa Wagner, the port’s communications manager, estimated that 24 oil modules have been barged up the Columbia and Snake rivers to the Port of Lewiston in Idaho. An undetermined number of oil modules have already been carried away from the port by truck and more will be hauled by truck under the permit issued by the state Department of Transportation.

Wagner said the plan was always to move the equipment both by truck and barge. “We’ve anticipated some of the smaller modules would go by truck,” she said. That plan also took into account the eventual need to use the trucking option because of the closure of shipping on the Columbia-Snake river system to allow the Army Corps of Engineers to replace locks and dams.

http://www.columbian.com/news/2011/f...ked-from-port/
 
JLM
No Party Affiliation
#49
Quote: Originally Posted by petros View Post

For you JLMMassive oil refinery parts trucked from port | The Columbian

Thanks, Petros but Lewiston would be the absolute limit- maybe 5 miles into Idaho.
 
Nuggler
+1
#50
WOOOHOOO.

I'm takin my twenty bucks worth, buy some beer (Laker - it's cheaper), drink it, then go out behind the shed and piss it all away.

Typical Ontarian eh.



Keep them dimes and quarters rollin in, all youse oily guys.


 
lone wolf
Free Thinker
+1
#51
Bottle battle always breaks out when it's the cheapskate's round....
 
Niflmir
Free Thinker
+1
#52
My take away from OP is: way to go Newfoundland!
 
BruSan
#53
Quote: Originally Posted by Niflmir View Post

My take away from OP is: way to go Newfoundland!


Right on! If ever there was a case for any province to claim they've been suckered it's not the western ones but Newfoundland. They've been treated like the red-headed-step-child for decades.

Comparing how they handle becoming wealthy with all of their coastal oil will be interesting to see if they resort to the whining and snivelling representative of some.
 
Kreskin
+1
#54
Quote: Originally Posted by B00Mer View Post

Well Quebec and Ontario has always been a parasite on the Canadian economy.. I don't think that will ever change until we get a politician strong enough to make some seriously a permanent changes to our constitution.

I don't agree with many things that had been done to the country during the 1970's - I think Trudeau screwed Canada from the get go.

1. The Royal Commission on Bilingualism and Biculturalism (Multiculturalism)

2. The metric system conversion.

3. The right of self determination for Quebec, which lead to bill 101.

4. NEP

I don't see the issues that some have with Trudeau. The country is one of the finest in the world right now. Does he get credit for that? Canada's Constitution is progressive, inclusive and a roadmap that most of the planet can only dream of having; a document where a vast multicultural nation of people live side by side and peacefully under. I think we can thank our lucky stars that someone with his foresight and passion stepped up to the plate for the fight. Now we're living in the good old days because of it.
 
china
Conservative
#55
...[/QUOTE]
Maybe Canada needs to tell Quebec to get their heads out of their ass and start giving back and pulling their weight - or get the fu.ck out.



LET' DO IT NOW !!!
Last edited by china; Jul 5th, 2012 at 11:14 PM..Reason: smells better