Die without argument

china
#1
] Have you thought what it means to come into contact with death, to die without argument? Because death, when it comes, does not argue with you. To meet it, you have to die every day to everything: to your agony, to your loneliness, to the relationship you cling to; you have to die to your thought, to die to your habit, to die to your wife so that you can look at your wife anew; you have to die to your society so that you, as a human being, are new, fresh, young, and you can look at it. But you cannot meet death if you don't die every day. It is only when you die that there is love. A mind that is frightened has no love - it has habits, it has sympathy, it can force itself to be kind and superficially considerate. But fear breeds sorrow, and sorrow is time as thought.So to end sorrow is to come into contact with death while living, by dying to your name, to your house, to your property, to your cause, so that you are fresh, young, clear, and you can see things as they are without any distortion. That is what is going to take place when you die. But we have a limited death to the physical. We know very well logically, sanely, that the organism is going to come to an end. So we invent a life which we have lived of daily agony, daily insensitivity, the increase of problems, and its stupidity; that life we want to carry over, which we call the "soul" - which we say is the most sacred thing, a part of the divine, but it is still part of your thought and therefore it has nothing to do with divinity. It is your life!So one has to live every day dying - dying because you are then in contact with life.
Last edited by china; Dec 21st, 2006 at 06:47 AM..
 
Dexter Sinister
#2
What the Hell have you been smoking, China? I haven't been able to make any sense of your posts for weeks. Months may even be involved. I certainly know what it means to come into contact with death, I've buried both my parents, a young cousin I dearly loved, and some friends who meant a lot to me. But I haven't a clue what you mean when you talk about having to die every day. You seem to be talking about disconnecting yourself from everything you value in order to understand things differently. No thanks; I'll do it once when the end of my life comes, and I'll hope it's a graceful and dignified exit at the end of a very long and happy life.
 
Vereya
#3
Coming into contact with death when someone you know and love dies is one thing. Coming into contact with your own death is another thing. China is right - you have to die everyday, so that when your time comes, and death does come for you, you will be ready and you will be able to let your life go without regrets and without trying to hold on to it for as long as you can.
 
L Gilbert
#4
Quote: Originally Posted by china View Post

] Do you know what it means to come into contact with death, to die without argument? Because death, when it comes, does not argue with you. To meet it, you have to die every day to everything: to your agony, to your loneliness, to the relationship you cling to; you have to die to your thought, to die to your habit, to die to your wife so that you can look at your wife anew; you have to die to your society so that you, as a human being, are new, fresh, young, and you can look at it. But you cannot meet death if you don't die every day. It is only when you die that there is love. A mind that is frightened has no love - it has habits, it has sympathy, it can force itself to be kind and superficially considerate. But fear breeds sorrow, and sorrow is time as thought.So to end sorrow is to come into contact with death while living, by dying to your name, to your house, to your property, to your cause, so that you are fresh, young, clear, and you can see things as they are without any distortion. That is what is going to take place when you die. But we have a limited death to the physical. We know very well logically, sanely, that the organism is going to come to an end. So we invent a life which we have lived of daily agony, daily insensitivity, the increase of problems, and its stupidity; that life we want to carry over, which we call the "soul" - which we say is the most sacred thing, a part of the divine, but it is still part of your thought and therefore it has nothing to do with divinity. It is your life!So one has to live every day dying - dying because you are then in contact with life.

You mean people change? Death happens? Whatta revelation.
 
china
#5
Dexter Sinister: a young cousin I dearly loved, and some friends who meant a lot to me

I think the only person that you love Dexter is your EGO
 
talloola
#6
Being totally aware each day that you are not going to live forever could be a start I guess, as that
allows you to do everything there is to do with gusto and love and sincerity and appreciation and
acceptability of being alive on this earth.
Wasting a day in your life, is a huge loss, because we all know that day is gone forever.

A person who truly believes in reincarnation cannot die every day, as that person dolesn't realize
they are "actually" going to die, as we kn ow it, but just die for a little while, then pop back up in
someone elses body, so they haven't come to terms with the reality of "true" life and death.

We have many things to complete during our lifetime, and knowing that we have a beginning and
end, allows us to organize all of these accomplishments into an alloted timeframe, and complete
as much as possible, and be satisfied when it's time to die, that the "job" is done as best as we could do itl.

I'm not sure if I really understand your meaning of "dying each day", and if I am missing the point entirely
please let me know.

I have four daughters, and I mention to them from time to time, that I will not be around forever, but
I will be their mother till that time, and I want to leave this world knowing they are OK, and that they
will complete their lives as strong human beings, I know I am going someday, and that is OK, but I encourage them to work hard at their lives, so that when I leave, I can go with that satisfaction in my heart .

I also hope they can do that for their children as well, because we are all a chain, linked together,
in life and death, and I can feel the chain still joined to my mother who has been gone for 11 years,
it gives strength.

Nothing is ours forever, we are only here for awhile, and what we own on this earth stays behind and
lives on for someone else.

Dying each and everyday for something in our lives, must mean that we can successfully live with the
realization that we will eventually die, and accept it.

Don't take anything for granted.
 
china
#7
l gilberte

Death happens? Whatta revelation________________-_____


Glad I could help,hope you're still around for a long time.
Last edited by china; Dec 21st, 2006 at 04:11 AM..
 
china
#8
talloola :
I'm not sure if I really understand your meaning of "dying each day", and if I am missing the point entirelyplease let me know.________________________________

Be glad to,
Your body grows old - and so does your mind when it is burdened with all the experiences, miseries and weariness of life; and such a mind can never discover what is truth. The mind can discover only when it is young, fresh, innocent; but innocence is not a matter of age. It is not only the child that is innocent but the mind that is capable of experiencing without accumulating the residue of experience. The mind must experience, that is inevitable. It must respond to everything - to the river, to the diseased animal, , to the poor villagers carrying their burdens along the road, to the tortures and miseries of life - otherwise it is already dead; but it must be capable of responding without being held by the experience. It is tradition, the accumulation of experience, the ashes of memory, that make the mind old. The mind that dies every day to the memories of yesterday, to all the joys and sorrows of the past - such a mind is fresh, innocent, it has no age; and without that innocence, whether you are ten or sixty, you will not find Truth .

PS.talloola-You are a great mother and I respect You.
Last edited by china; Dec 21st, 2006 at 04:20 AM..
 
Curiosity
#9
China

I love your mind and your courage to write on this forum -

I wanted to tell you some people welcome the release of death - from pain, illness, confusion, loss of control; for many reasons.

Some courageous people take days to actively fight death for their lives are precious to them.

I think the pain of death actually lies with those who love or care about the person dying.

You speak of death (petit mort) daily and we do experience "loss" on a daily basis, as we are ever changing mentally and physically, as well as our milieu in which we live and those around us - and when
we are active, death brings fear with it.

My answer is to fully live, never run from experience in life - even sad or ugly or hateful, and if we can learn and absorb those things, and choose life again for another day, we are and will continue to live until our moment of goodbye and letting go.
 
china
#10
Thanks .
 
AndyF
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by china View Post

] .... therefore it has nothing to do with divinity. It is your life!So one has to live every day dying - dying because you are then in contact with life.

Not so. The soul is that which animates the organizm. It is assigned at conception in humans, and is that part of God that links us to him. Every living thing has a soul, some finite, and some infinite and destined to return to God.

If death was the finality, what is the purpose of living and being aware? If we do bad things to upset order and there is nothing we need to pay back, why change in this life? Would reason suggest that we are created, and can create cahos at will with no consequence?

That is a very dangerous way of thinking. It does not inspire one to maintain a righteous conduct, and leaves an inadequacy within oneself, a void to be filled by beings that take one away from the creator. One needs to move out of prison of the empirical and into the freedom of the spirit to really know God, through the intellect,reason guided by a virtuous conscience.

AndyF
 
Tonington
#12
Death is part of every being and the end of senescence. When this body of mine expires, it will go back to the Earth and nourish many more beings.

The purpose of life has been discussed here before and I see it having really two answers. One which has been since life sprung up on this lovely rock, the other a personal sentiment for all our hopes and aspirations. I personally do not need an afterlife to give meaning to what I do here with the time I have.
I have faced my own death and have walked away, humbled and enlightened. I do not need to experience such a thing multiple times to appreciate what I have now. I do not need a deity to guide me in my dealings with other humans. Humanity is a wonderful thing to me, though it can be as brutal as the natural world we've disassociated with. My life is enhanced through the these connections and relationships and my path is chosen by myself.

When death comes again I hope I can greet it with the fortitude I've gained since the first encounter, if it's my time well I've lead a great and fulfilling life allready, if I survive, so much the better and stronger in the end.
 
L Gilbert
#13
Geeeeeeeeez. The purpose of life is to live it. Why people insist on some hidden meaning underlying such a simple thing as life is beyond me. Must be conspiracy nuts.

"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth."
Umberto Eco
 
Dexter Sinister
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by china View Post

Dexter Sinister: a young cousin I dearly loved, and some friends who meant a lot to me

I think the only person that you love Dexter is your EGO

Mean-spirited and small-minded of you, china. I thought better of you.
 
Toro
#15
There was once a Family Guy episode about this.
 
#juan
#16
I can't think of a more depressing way to live than to spend all my hours obsessing over death.

Since it is clear from past history that we all die, I see no point in lamenting what is inevitable. Life is great, and who knows where we go from here. Enjoy your time here....cheers
 
talloola
#17
[quote=china;759041]talloola :
I'm not sure if I really understand your meaning of "dying each day", and if I am missing the point entirelyplease let me know.________________________________

Be glad to,
Your body grows old - and so does your mind when it is burdened with all the experiences, miseries and weariness of life; and such a mind can never discover what is truth. The mind can discover only when it is young, fresh, innocent; but innocence is not a matter of age. It is not only the child that is innocent but the mind that is capable of experiencing without accumulating the residue of experience. The mind must experience, that is inevitable. It must respond to everything - to the river, to the diseased animal, , to the poor villagers carrying their burdens along the road, to the tortures and miseries of life - otherwise it is already dead; but it must be capable of responding without being held by the experience. It is tradition, the accumulation of experience, the ashes of memory, that make the mind old. The mind that dies every day to the memories of yesterday, to all the joys and sorrows of the past - such a mind is fresh, innocent, it has no age; and without that innocence, whether you are ten or sixty, you will not find Truth .

PS.talloola-You are a great mother and I respect You

THANK YOU
 
talloola
#18
[quote=AndyF;763722]Not so. The soul is that which animates the organizm. It is assigned at conception in humans, and is that part of God that links us to him. Every living thing has a soul, some finite, and some infinite and destined to return to God.

I use the phrase "heart & soul" and I have no connection to god whatsoever. But that expression explains
the deep feeling that can come from the deepest part of a person, to show he has compassion and
thoughts for things and people, other than "him/herself. I do not believe your soul is going to be tampered
with at all when you die, your soul should die with you, it has been a big part of your "person", and has
left others around you aware of your feelings for them, and the world.

If death was the finality, what is the purpose of living and being aware? If we do bad things to upset order and there is nothing we need to pay back, why change in this life? Would reason suggest that we are created, and can create cahos at will with no consequence?

As I have said in other posts, it is very arrogant for those who are "religious" to feel they have some
right to go to some other life, after death here on earth. I just feel they are not "brave" enough to
accept the reality of our lives here, and they have to invent something that makes them feel safe, so
they can live on, "knowing" in their minds that something will save them, after their natural death,
so sad, and pitiful.

That is a very dangerous way of thinking. It does not inspire one to maintain a righteous conduct, and leaves an inadequacy within oneself, a void to be filled by beings that take one away from the creator. One needs to move out of prison of the empirical and into the freedom of the spirit to really know God, through the intellect,reason guided by a virtuous conscience.

A very dangerous way of thinking, is to put all of your obedience, and intelligence into the hands of
something else, and not take the responsibility of using it yourself. If we use our smarts properly,
we will see the good, in the world, we won't be trying to sell our own "religion" as the best one, just
like some used car, and we will free up our minds to be much more energetic, and busy caring for
each other here on our earth. We don't need some entity to answer to, we can aswer to each other,
care for each other, and without religion, we won't be "killing" each other over the centuries, in the
name of "god", because we can't be tolerant of others beliefs, as we should all be "obedient" to the
needs of our "earth", as it is our home from "birth to death", and we are so preoccupied with other
silly things, and harmful things, that we are neglecting it, we should kneel and thank our "earth" for
the bountiful things which it offers, instead we kick it in the "head" and keep on killing it.
 
AndyF
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by Tonington View Post

I do not need a deity to guide me in my dealings with other humans.

So what you are saying is that order is simply one accepted form, and chaos is another, and we can choose between them?

Since this is a one-shot existance as you claim, and I conclude that at least for myself order doesn't bring about the best that life brings, perhaps chaos is just as good a selection? I could steal with impunity, have your daughter for my own pleasure, become a rich man, litter the highways, take from the poor. All this just as long as I stay one step from man's law. I need to follow the law only to make man's stay comfortable until this generation too suffers nonexistance? Virtue is out and no longer required, as virtue molds us in conformity to God's laws. I can rightly console the people I offended with that wonderful hope that their torment I caused is just going to last their lifetime, and they can look forward to non-existance in peace and no torture just like I am destined.

I can see your groping with some ethical more to put me in conformity, but what ethic or morality do you choose? Force and torture don't work as we know these things are voluntarily taken on by man in many situations in life. You can execute me but you need to catch me, besides one situation is a still a possibility, in that all of man could choose chaos en masse and nothing could be done about it, nor would it abnormal. You can't choose a higher Authority's, as your adamant that God doesn't exist,. What's left is man's morals.

Here I can rightly ask you for proof that his morals are better than mine and the ideal model. To counter your selection I can pick one example of millions of it's imperfection, and state the Nazi moral was that their children should hand over their parents if they are not loyal. Here we have a bonafide law, set into rule by thousands both in spirit and actually, and implemented after a long contemplation.

Since I proved I am not any "worse" than these butchers, then I declare my conduct just.

You will finally end up saying that it's just not right and it's against conscience. But Ha, gotcha! In supposing a conscience, then you must also suppose an Authority that bestowed it.

Finally, you play a game of probability. If there is a God, you spent a lifetime not showing him the honour that is rightfully His as creator and provider of all that you enjoyed, and don't think that all you need to do is be a good person, as worship,honour and charity are goods that are owed Him and deserving to him as Creator. Perhaps He'll overlook that and forget you could have given Him the benefit of the doubt, and you ignored your own intellect and reason that he gave you to allow you to realize him. Or, you can chuck it all up to chance and risk a trillion years of making up for the debt in realization you are aware,can feel and suffer a true death.

Personally, I could think this way if I were alone but that would be irresponsible of me, and I would want my children to have all their bases covered. I owe it to them to at least say that I don't know, but it seems reasonable and just that there is a God, and he gave me you my children. Or as you believe I could also tell them that the only hope they have is limited and finite and not to worry but earthly death is truly a finality, meanwhile man is not a model for them, therefore enjoy the party while it lasts.

Indeed, what a waste.

AndyF
 
L Gilbert
#20
Not as much of a waste as spending a large chunk of one's life wondering about gods, how they see you, what you should be doing to appease them, praying, listening to someone ramble on about dogma, worrying about death, etc. then finding out when you're dead, you're just dead. lol
I don't do wrong to others nor do I spend much time thinking about death, preferring to cross that bridge when I get there. The vast majority of my time is spent simply living my life and enjoying the vast majority of it.
 
Tonington
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by AndyF View Post

So what you are saying is that order is simply one accepted form, and chaos is another, and we can choose between them?

Since this is a one-shot existance as you claim, and I conclude that at least for myself order doesn't bring about the best that life brings, perhaps chaos is just as good a selection? I could steal with impunity, have your daughter for my own pleasure, become a rich man, litter the highways, take from the poor. All this just as long as I stay one step from man's law. I need to follow the law only to make man's stay comfortable until this generation too suffers nonexistance? Virtue is out and no longer required, as virtue molds us in conformity to God's laws. I can rightly console the people I offended with that wonderful hope that their torment I caused is just going to last their lifetime, and they can look forward to non-existance in peace and no torture just like I am destined.

I can see your groping with some ethical more to put me in conformity, but what ethic or morality do you choose? Force and torture don't work as we know these things are voluntarily taken on by man in many situations in life. You can execute me but you need to catch me, besides one situation is a still a possibility, in that all of man could choose chaos at once and nothing could be done about it. You can't choose a higher Authority's, as your adamant that God doesn't exist,. What's left is man's morals.

Here I can rightly ask you for proof that his morals are better than mine and the ideal model. To counter your selection I can pick one example of millions of it's imperfection, and state the Nazi moral was that their children should hand over their parents if they are not loyal. Here we have a bonafide law, set into rule by thousands both in spirit and actually, and implemented after a long contemplation.

Since I proved I am not any "worse" than these butchers, then I declare my conduct just.

You will finally end up saying that it's just not right and it's against conscience. But Ha, gotcha! In supposing a conscience, then you must also suppose an Authority that bestowed it.

Finally, you play a game of probability. If there is a God, you spent a lifetime not showing him the honour that is rightfully His as creator and provider of all that you enjoyed, and don't think that all you need to do is be a good person, as worship,honour and charity are goods that are owed Him and deserving to him as Creator. Perhaps He'll overlook that and forget you could have given Him the benefit of the doubt, and you ignored your own intellect and reason that he gave you to allow you to realize him. Or, you can chuck it all up to chance and risk a trillion years of making up for the debt in realization you are aware,can feel and suffer a true death.

Personally, I could think this way if I were alone but that would be irresponsible of me, and I would want my children to have all their bases covered. I owe it to them to at least say that I don't know, but it seems reasonable and just that there is a God, and he gave me you my children. Or as you believe I could also tell them that the only hope they have is limited and finite and not to worry but earthly death is truly a finality.

Indeed, what a waste.

AndyF


You certainly could steal if that is what you choose. It's not my thing because to me it's dishonest, not because some benevolent creator tells me it's wrong. If it weren't for the societies we have created those transgressions would fall to the individual to mitigate through natural law.

I do not try to place you in conformity any more than what my society would expect of you. You're free to do as you like, and you will be required to accept your consequences. If I'm wrong and God does exist, I'll have my own consequences to accept, no? My morality is chose by me and society seeks to guide my choices, but ultimately the choices are mine to make, much like God gives us free will. Who is to say that your god has the ideal set of morals?

My conscience is a result of personal growth and an authority I grant to correct those tresspasses against me. I could choose to leave the comforts of society and live in chaos as you say, without order, but I do not.

My probability is the same probability you follow, only the other side of the preverbial coin. If there is no god then those who have lived their lives following said gods will have their satisfaction of knowing they lead a life under that gods virtues.

My children will be shown religion, I plan on taking them to church myself, and showing them the many other moralities people choose for themselves. Ultimately the choice is theirs to make not mine.

A life lived is never a waste and thats the truth.
 
talloola
#22
[quote=L Gilbert;764142]Not as much of a waste as spending a large chunk of one's life wondering about gods, how they see you, what you should be doing to appease them, praying, listening to someone ramble on about dogma, worrying about death, etc. then finding out when you're dead, you're just dead. lol
I don't do wrong to others nor do I spend much time thinking about death, preferring to cross that bridge when I get there. The vast majority of my time is spent simply living my life and enjoying the vast majority of it


I HONESTLY AND TRULY SECOND THAT MOTION, the constant "looking" elswhere, away from our
home on this earth, is definitely a waste of time, they are missing what's so beautiful and real
right under their noses, our life here, the beauty here, the reality here, the happiness here. It's the
same as always looking over the fence saying "the grass is greener", and missing what is right where
you are "now".

Anyway Gilbert, let's keep this little secret to ourselves, what they don't know won't hurt them, or?
 

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