Split over Bexit....Chaos in UK.


MHz
#151
Should we not have a lotto on when the Queen steps in like she did when she save Scotland from making a terrible mistake.


Think of it as a band-aid, one quick pull is better than being able count each hair as it comes out against its will.
 
MHz
#152
Quote: Originally Posted by Christian View Post

Is about British Empire, Islam and war.

1400 years non stop?? At some point 'possible deception by all sides' better make it to the table.
 
Blackleaf
#153
Quote: Originally Posted by Ocean Breeze View Post

Exactly...... Watching this chaos on BBC in the background...... hard to believe that the Brits would have allowed themselves t become so vulnerable.......... via some stupid notion.

Between the American craziness and the UK chaos........... the world is at a fragile statee.

It's not the peeople who voted for Britain to become free and sovereign from a corrupt, money-grabbing superstate that are to blame for this mess. It's the Remainer Establishment that's been trying it's best to scupper and ruin Brexit who are to blame for this mess.
 
Blackleaf
#154
Quote: Originally Posted by Ocean Breeze View Post

Irish PM says hard border highly likely without Brexit deal

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-b...+World+News%29

KATE HOEY There’s no need for an Irish hard border – it’s just a barrier put up by scaremongers

The Irish government has deliberately made the border an issue and our PM has completely fallen for it by agreeing to a backstop that would potentially see Northern Ireland being treated differently to the rest of the UK

Comment
By Kate Hoey
14th November 2018
The Sun

Kate Hoey is the Northern Irish Labour MP for Vauxhall and campaigned to leave the EU.

DURING all my years as an MP, the interest shown in Northern Ireland by most of my colleagues has been minimal.

Even with over a thousand members there, the party still disallows Labour candidates to stand in elections.

There's no need for an Irish hard border - it's just a barrier put up by scaremongers

So it has been rather ironic that in the Brexit debate Labour MPs have been queuing up to mention Northern Ireland.

What happens at the border after we leave the EU has become the “big sticking point” causing our Prime Minister to make commitments to backstops that few understand and even fewer support.

The repeatedly stated aim of the EU, the UK and the Irish government is to avoid creating a hard border.

They never actually define what a hard border is, but I assume that they mean not having huge structures acting as barriers with flashing lights and cameras as used to be there.

The Irish Government has made the Irish border an issue and Theresa May has fallen for it

It is conveniently forgotten that those barriers were only there when the IRA was active, bombing and killing our soldiers and police officers.

A border is there at the moment, although not visible.

The Irish Republic has different excise duties, VAT rates and currency to the UK.

Yet all those differences are handled remotely by technology and pre-paperwork.

There's no need for a hard border - the UK has had a closer relationship to Ireland than any other European country

If intelligence arouses suspicion about smuggling, the vehicle will be stopped.

In other words, with goodwill and co-operation, there is no need for a “hard border”.

The Irish government, in cahoots with the EU, has deliberately made the border an issue.

Unfortunately, our Prime Minister and her officials have completely fallen for it by agreeing to a backstop that would potentially see Northern Ireland being treated differently to the rest of the UK.

Implying that the peace process is threatened by a hard border is scaremongering of the worst kind.

We should be prosecuting those who are breaking the law, not allowing them to shape our policy on leaving the EU.

The Irish Republic and UK shared a common travel area long before either joined even the Common Market.

We have always had a closer relationship with the Irish than other EU citizens, and the EU has not objected.

The Irish Gvernment would suffer the most if the UK were to leave the EU on World Trade Organisation rules

All the Irish living in Great Britain were able to vote in the referendum and many voted to Leave.

After the financial crash in 2008 British taxpayers pumped £20billion into the Irish economy and helped bail out their banks.

Yet despite all this the Irish government is playing hardball even though they would suffer most if the UK were to leave on World Trade Organisation rules.

The EU wants to keep us locked in to their regulations and rules and the Irish seem to be doing everything they can to support the intransigent EU Commission.

The barriers were only there when the IRA was active, bombing and killing our soldiers and police officers

Irish leader Leo Varadkar has behaved rather shamefully with some of his rhetoric and is perhaps intent on becoming a future EU commissioner.

The previous Taoiseach Enda Kenny had allowed his officials to talk to British counterparts about Brexit, but Mr Varadkar has stopped that.

The hypocrisy is breathtaking because his government has already erected a hard border against fishermen from Northern Ireland.

Pre-dating membership of the EEC, a 1965 neighbourhood agreement between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland granted reciprocal access to fishermen from each jurisdiction to fish in each other’s territorial waters, reflecting traditional and historic fishing patterns around the island.

Irish leader Leo Varadkar has behaved rather shamefully with some of his rhetoric and is perhaps intent on becoming a future EU Commissioner

But as a result of a decision by Dublin’s Supreme Court two years ago Northern Ireland vessels are no longer allowed to fish in Irish waters, yet Irish fishing vessels continue to benefit from access to fish in British waters around Northern Ireland.

Mr Varadkar’s government has erected and maintained a hard border against Northern Ireland fishermen in the hope that this will exert influence on the UK during wider Brexit negotiations.

Our UK government claims to be maintaining the moral high ground on these issues, but the question arises — how long does the UK keep to the moral high ground when dealing with an Irish government that is taking our goodwill for granted?

When will the Prime Minister speak out and condemn this behaviour?

When will she start speaking out in support of British citizens rather than seeming to care more about Irish views?

When will she stand up for the Northern Ireland fishing community.

It is this hypocrisy from Dublin that makes it certain that I and many other MPs will not support an agreement with the EU that panders to this kind of behaviour.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/773355...-scaremongers/
 
Blackleaf
#155
Quote: Originally Posted by coldstream View Post

Maybe this will lead to the reunification of Ireland. Seems the logical outcome since religion seems no longer to be the decisive dividing factor. The Republic of Ireland has repudiated its Catholic character with its legalization of abortion and, homosexual 'marriage' and, election of an openly homosexual Prime Minister. The whole place has gone to hell so what's to keep them apart now. I'm not sure Northern Ireland is a viable state outside Britain.

The 1998 Good Friday Agreement states that a reunification of Ireland can only come about if the people of Northern Ireland vote for it in a referendum. Most opinons polls since the EU referendum on 23rd June 2016 have shown the people of Northern Ireland wish to remain part of the United Kingdon. In September 2016 an Ipsos |Mori poll showed 63% wanted to remain part of the United Kingdom.
 
Blackleaf
+1
#156
Quote: Originally Posted by Ocean Breeze View Post

French minister says Brexit comes at 'exorbitant' price as he calls UK MPs 'liars'

https://news.sky.com/story/french-mi...liars-11555807

Oh dear..... breaking up is hard to do..

The French are only angry at Brexit because it means the second-biggest contributor to the EU budget is quitting and it means the French will probably have to start paying more into Brussels' coffers.
 
Blackleaf
#157
Brexiteer cabinet ministers in plan to shift May on EU deal

BBC News
17 November 2018


Michael Gove, Liam Fox, Andrea Leadsom, Chris Grayling and Penny Mordaunt


A group of five ministers in Theresa May's top team are hoping to persuade her to make changes to her draft Brexit deal, the BBC understands.

Leader of the Commons Andrea Leadsom is believed to be co-ordinating the group.

The five ministers include Michael Gove and Liam Fox - who on Friday publicly threw their support behind the PM - plus Penny Mordaunt and Chris Grayling.

Mrs May published her draft withdrawal agreement with the EU on Wednesday, and has vowed to "see it through".

The 585-page document sets out the terms of the UK's departure and includes details such as how much money will be paid to the EU, details of the transition period and citizens rights.

The deal prompted the start of a tumultuous few days for Mrs May, with two senior ministers and several other junior ministers and aides resigning.

Some Conservative Brexiteers who are unhappy with the agreement have also been submitting letters of no-confidence in Mrs May. If 48 letters are sent, then a vote will be triggered and she could face a challenge to her leadership.

Mark Francois, one of the 23 Conservative MPs known to have sent a letter, said Mrs May's plan would leave the UK "half in and half out" of the EU and everyone knew she would never get it through Parliament.

Asked if Mrs May was prepared for a leadership challenge, Conservative Party chairman Brandon Lewis said: "I think the prime minister is ready for anything."

Conservative MP Sir Alan Duncan urged fellow MPs to "stop and reflect", saying a leadership challenge was not going to get the country a better deal than Mrs May's.

"All it's likely to do is create chaos, break the government, break the party and leave the country in great disarray - and our loyalty, above all, has to be to the country."

On Friday evening, it emerged that Mrs Leadsom hopes to work with the four other ministers to change the draft withdrawal deal into something "winnable and supportable".

They specifically want to change the part regarding the Irish backstop - which has been one of the main sticking points in talks with Brussels.

Both sides want to avoid a hard Northern Ireland border so they agreed to put in place a "backstop" - or back-up plan - in case they cannot reach a long-term trade agreement which does this.

The backstop would mean that Northern Ireland would stay more closely aligned to some EU rules on things like food products and goods standards than the rest of the UK, which critics say is unacceptable.

The UK would not be able to leave the backstop without the EU's consent.

According to the BBC's political editor Laura Kuenssberg, the group of ministers want a change in the draft text to include the possibility of new technology or a free trade deal as alternative solutions to the Irish border issue.

The group's plans were described as a "work in progress", and a "last-ditch attempt to find something to put to the Commons".

Brandon Lewis, party chairman and a cabinet member, said it was right that colleagues across the cabinet would want to have their say.

He said he thought the five would be looking at the longer, future agreement with the EU.

A source said of Theresa May's deal: "Even if you don't mind it ideologically, you can't be fooled about getting it through the Commons."

The source suggested that if changes weren't made, resignations from Brexiteers still in the cabinet were "not off the table".

The deal is expected to be approved at a special EU summit on 25 November, before being voted on by MPs in Parliament.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46243745
 
Blackleaf
+1
#158
Rod Liddle

May's deal proves one thing: the establishment always wins

Rod Liddle






Rod Liddle
17 November 2018
The Spectator

Peasants’ Revolts tend not to work out too well in this country, for the peasants. I suppose that is why we have so comparatively few of them. There is a flurry for a while and then normal service is resumed. It is often said that Wesleyan Methodism helped to quell any uppity tendencies among the working classes during the Industrial Revolution, but I suspect it was more a case of the proles understanding that whatever they did, they would not win. Too much ranged against them, marshalled by people who naturally knew much better about what was good for them.

And so it is with our latest Peasants’ Revolt on 23 June 2016 — a mass outpouring of anger at the ruling elite in Britain and Brussels, a passion for the nation state and sovereignty, a long weariness over immigration and a great disdain for the well-heeled liberal establishment that believes Leave voters are all ill-educated racist scum who should shut up and get back in their boxes, to their call centres or wherever it is they work these days. If they work.

What we voted for does not matter, because they will not let it happen. We have endured two years of hysteria, bed-wetting and tantrums from our masters, our defeated masters. There have been threats, dire predictions, spiteful calumnies flung at those who dared to vote in a way with which they did not agree; columnists suggesting that democracy has maybe gone too far; shrieks of fury and temper strops; continued attempts to use unelected bodies to overturn the vote; demands for a new vote which would be a ‘People’s Vote’ (different from the original vote because that allowed feral animals into the polling booth); allegations from ninnies that Poles and other foreigners were being set on fire or spat at in the street, that racism is rising; lectures every evening from pencil-necked berks on the BBC about how Brexit is ruining us or will ruin us.

We’ve been told that we will starve and won’t be able to fly anywhere and industrial production will cease. We’ve had big companies screaming they’ll go out of business because they can’t employ some benighted Romanian for 40p an hour. The IMF and, of course, the EU have been insistent that we’re headed for suicide — despite the fact that their statistics suggest the opposite.

Hell, you think that stuff about £350 million a week to the NHS was a lie? It has nothing on what we’ve been told since by the people who lost the vote: the multitudes of the well-heeled mobilised on their marches, waving their EU flags, packing out the Albert Hall for Last Night of the Proms, all of them insisting that the morons who voted Leave have now changed their minds and citing polls which show precisely that — much, in fact, as polls, showed a desire to stay in the EU on the evening before the actual referendum, when Remain had up to an eight-point lead.

And we ought to face it: these voices of the establishment, the liberal establishment, have won. It’s as brutal a victory in a way as that which saw Wat Tyler stabbed to death in Smithfield in June 1381: a continual fugue of outrage, disinformation, lies and chicanery, broadcast by those with vested interests. And, of course, a grotesque betrayal, intended all along.

Because there are no palatable options on the table now for those who voted Leave. It is either back a deal which ties us to the European Union, except without even a vote in return for our continued subjugation, or back no deal which stands no chance whatsoever of getting through Parliament. Or maybe accept another referendum, because they didn’t like the result of the first one — and which will be gerrymandered so that the Leave vote is split.

None of this is the consequence of the rights or wrongs of Brexit. All of it is a consequence of a failed government and a majority in the House of Commons that does not actually want the UK to leave the EU.

Sure, for a year or so the politicians of the two major parties paid lip-service to the notion that the people’s voice ‘must be respected’. But the passage of time is a wonderful thing and nobody seems to think that any more. Not the Labour party, which has apparently resiled from its original stance and will vote against whatever hopeless arrangement is presented before it by the Prime Minister. Not the Remainers within the Conservative party either — perhaps the primary villains of the piece, capable of trotting out with bovine sincerity the injunction that the People’s Vote must be honoured, while doing everything they possibly can to weaken the government’s hand in negotiating with the EU.

Time and again, the hapless May would trot off to meet Michel Barnier or Jean-Claude Juncker while at home cabinet ministers would brief about the calamity of a no deal, and how it must be avoided at all costs. Thus she would stand at the crease and even before the first ball was bowled would find that her bat had been broken, to borrow an analogy from that dead sheep Geoffrey Howe.

And yet May was also a Remainer. And so too was her Chancellor. Their hearts are not with leaving the EU, their hearts are for staying within it as far as is possible. May’s sole purpose at the moment is to stay in power — although, frankly, why she should want to eludes me entirely. But imagine what a government with confidence and imagination might have done, secure at home and therefore immune to blackmailing. Leaving a trade organisation is not, in reality, a terribly troublesome business. Nevertheless, we have made it so.
I am told quite frequently that a failure to leave will lead to riots on the streets. No it won’t. It will lead only to a sullen acceptance that once again, you can’t beat the establishment. It will always win in the end.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/11/...t-always-wins/
 
Tecumsehsbones
#159
Quote:

It is conveniently forgotten that those barriers were only there when the IRA was active, bombing and killing our soldiers and police officers.

Just as you have conveniently forgotten that slightly over half of the roughly 3600 homicides committed during the period known as "The Troubles" were committed by the British Army and its associated Orange terrorist organizations.
 
Dixie Cup
Conservative
#160
Quote: Originally Posted by Tecumsehsbones View Post

Well, your ancestors were Brits, and they did vote to leave. Britain, that is.





Actually, you have made an assumption that is incorrect, but that's ok.
 
Curious Cdn
Conservative
#161
Quote: Originally Posted by Dixie Cup View Post

Actually, you have made an assumption that is incorrect, but that's ok.

Works for me, tho.
 
Blackleaf
#162
Quote: Originally Posted by Tecumsehsbones View Post

Just as you have conveniently forgotten that slightly over half of the roughly 3600 homicides committed during the period known as "The Troubles" were committed by the British Army and its associated Orange terrorist organizations.

1) The British Army were responsible for just 299 or so deaths during the Troubles - 9% of the total.

By far the largest number of deaths - 49% of them - were committed by the IRA, with the loyalist UVF coming a very distant second - 11%.

2) The Orange Order isn't a terrorist organisation.

But apart from those two slight errors, your post was entirely accurate.
 
Blackleaf
#163
By the way, Sinn Fein, the political wing of the IRA, were against the Republic of Ireland joining the EU.

 
MHz
#164
Didn't the Queen put May in after Scotland was railroaded??
 
Blackleaf
#165
Quote: Originally Posted by MHz View Post

Didn't the Queen put May in after Scotland was railroaded??

Do you mean in the same way that Ontario was railroaded in the 1992 Charlottetown Accord when it voted in favour of it but Canada as a whole voted against it?
 
Tecumsehsbones
#166
Quote: Originally Posted by Blackleaf View Post

1) The British Army were responsible for just 299 or so deaths during the Troubles - 9% of the total.
By far the largest number of deaths - 49% of them - were committed by the IRA, with the loyalist UVF coming a very distant second - 11%.
2) The Orange Order isn't a terrorist organisation.
But apart from those two slight errors, your post was entirely accurate.

I'm surprised, but pleased, that you agree with me.
 
MHz
#167
Quote: Originally Posted by Blackleaf View Post

Do you mean in the same way that Ontario was railroaded in the 1992 Charlottetown Accord when it voted in favour of it but Canada as a whole voted against it?

Nope.
 
coldstream
#168
Quote: Originally Posted by Tecumsehsbones View Post

Yeah, why don't you tell the bishops to get on that last one, and quit covering up for the child molesters?



I completely agree. The Bishops, with notable exceptions, have failed the Church and its children... going right up to the present Bishop of Rome and Vicar of Christ.
 
Curious Cdn
Conservative
#169
Quote: Originally Posted by coldstream View Post

I completely agree. The Bishops, with notable exceptions, have failed the Church and its children... going right up to the present Bishop of Rome and Vicar of Christ.

Leave it up to the Rooks and Knights to win the day.
 
Blackleaf
#170
Quote: Originally Posted by Tecumsehsbones View Post

I'm surprised, but pleased, that you agree with me.


I don't agree with you. You couldn't have been more wrong.
 
Blackleaf
#171
Quote: Originally Posted by MHz View Post

Nope.


Course it is. Ontario voted in favour of it but Canada as a whole voted against it - which Ontario, of course, had to just accept.
 
MHz
#172
Ontario was paid a lot of money, kind of take the 'free vote' crap. There is a good reason the Quebec separation vote was only held in Quebec. Can you guess why it was that way?
 

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