It is not any sin to be rich.


eanassir
#1
It is not any sin to be rich


But it is sin when the rich does not offer the due (Zakat) alms out of his surplus money, and it is a sin to withhold the money from the poor, the needy, orphans and widows when they are in need.

Moreover, the rich has to be grateful to God for He bestowed on him such wealth; but it is a sin if the rich does not thank his Lord for his bounty.

In addition, the rich should not be proud with his wealth, nor neglect in his duties to his relatives and other people.

The rich should bear in mind that the wealth that he has is only a matter of trial to see will he be grateful and expend for the sake of God for the poor and the needy? Or will he be ungrateful and deprive the needy of their rights and be independent of God and His apostles and His revealed books: the Torah, the Gospel and the Quran.

Some of the rich think that he is preferred by God, and God loves him, therefore, He blessed him with his wealth; but this is wrong: God does not love this man, so that He made him rich, as does not He hate that man, so He made him poor. But all that is only a matter of trial.

This is in the Quran 89: 15-

فَأَمَّا الْإِنسَانُ إِذَا مَا ابْتَلَاهُ رَبُّهُ فَأَكْرَمَهُ وَنَعَّمَهُ فَيَقُولُ رَبِّي أَكْرَمَنِ . وَأَمَّا إِذَا مَا ابْتَلَاهُ فَقَدَرَ عَلَيْهِ رِزْقَهُ فَيَقُولُ رَبِّي أَهَانَنِ . كَلَّا بَل لَّا تُكْرِمُونَ الْيَتِيمَ . وَلَا تَحَاضُّونَ عَلَى طَعَامِ الْمِسْكِينِ . وَتَأْكُلُونَ التُّرَاثَ أَكْلًا لَّمًّا . وَتُحِبُّونَ الْمَالَ حُبًّا جَمًّا

The explanation:
( As for man: whenever his Lord tries him by being Generous to him [with wealth] and blessing him [with many favors], then he says: "My Lord has honored me [because He prefers me.]

But when He tries him [with poverty] and stints for him his provision, then he says: "Surely my Lord has despised me [because he hates me.]"

No, [We do not like the man whom We enrich, nor do We hate the man for whom We stint the provision, but We only try them by the richness and poverty];

but [We hate those among] you:

>> [who are miser and do not honor the orphan.

>> And [We hate that] you do not urge [people] on the feeding of the needy.

>> And [that] you endeavor [the annual income of] the heritage successively [without paying alms to the poor.]

>> And [that] you love [hording] the wealth with an ardent love.

Not at all; [for the endeavoring of the heritage does not prolong life, nor does hording of the wealth save man from God's punishment;
but it is the honoring of the orphans that prolongs life and the paying of alms to the poor and needy saves from the punishment.] )
----------------------------------------------------------

In addition, the wealth may hinder man from devoting himself to God alone and from working for the prosperity in the kingdom of heaven in the next afterlife;

as is this understood from the rich man with Prophet Jesus, when Jesus said concerning him: as in the Gospel according to Matthew 19: 23-24

"23 Jesus said to his disciples, "Most assuredly I say to you, a rich man will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven with difficulty.
24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of God."

http://quranandhebrewbible.t35.com/#ten%20commandments%20of%20ezra
quranandhebrewbible.t35.com/#ten%20commandments%20of%20ezra
Last edited by eanassir; May 17th, 2009 at 02:58 PM..
 
L Gilbert
#2
IMO, it is a sin (I prefer the term "bad aspect") to be greedy, to want more than one needs at the expense of others.
 
El Barto
#3
Quote: Originally Posted by L Gilbert View Post

IMO, it is a sin (I prefer the term "bad aspect") to be greedy, to want more than one needs at the expense of others.

 
MHz
#4
Quote: Originally Posted by eanassir View Post

It is not any sin to be rich


But it is sin when the rich does not offer the due (Zakat) alms out of his surplus money, and it is a sin to withhold the money from the poor, the needy, orphans and widows when they are in need.

The Bible would classify somebody as being rich if they had more money than the bankers (take home pay) Below that line (poor and poorest)certain benefits kick in, above that line banks can and do charge some form of interest. In a busy economy their income would be more and they do more. In lean times they take in less and they do less. The system is geared to keeping the poorest as close to the dividing line as possible. Nor does it try to stifle all business growth, a sound business should not be subsidized by the poor, nor does it need an annual growth that is more than single digit prophets. The general public all benefit because anything above that growth margin would take care of any interest owing and above that it would mean reduced prices.

I would have to re-read those Scriptural references to see how else it could affect banking at the pace we do it and at the pace growth will affect this system we use today. Never being able to repay a loan doesn't last forever. It could last much longer if when the interest is paid the client gets to keep the rest. @ 5% interest the Gov borrows 1M, the way it is today he hast to pay back the 1M+5%. The payback should be the 5% and the rest stays with the Gov forever. When damaged it is replaced for free because the Bank gets the old and now unusable tender. The borrower always ends up with the purchase. The Bank has to pay all his bills from that 5%. The amount of new money (growth) is still a good chunk of change for doing nothing but paper-work. Canada has paid them 42B/yr plus all the other interest and all the other service charges. Take from the poor they should be able to demand lower prices cause they have less money. Take from the rich at years end they are still richer than they were, in lean time the poor have no extra money to spend so he loses his business and becomes less wealthy.

The Jewish practices that were given in the OT could be updated simple by making Christians and Muslims and others as being relatives because all 3 recognize one God as being the true God. They don't have to agree on anything else. The ones outsides are still covered by conditions that apply to times of peace. Across the board banking is one of them. The rich carry the whole weight of banking, the poor have this as a free service.
 
lone wolf
#5
Free service? What bank do you deal with????
 
Toro
#6
Whew! Good stuff. I might have to become a Muslim. I don't know if I'll get into heaven otherwise.

(Or anywise for that matter...)
 
MHz
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolf View Post

Free service? What bank do you deal with????

Same kind you deal with, 150/yr for a very basic package, my billionaire employer get money from the bank most likely. His loans would certainly have a lower interest rate.
Nail the poor just as hard as you can seems to be a banking rule. Only the poorest can have a cheque bounce, the bank dings him about 40 and the other end also has some for of penalty. Might be 80 in total, don't tell me it costs the banks and the company 80 bucks for each transaction they do. Get a little higher up the ladder and the bank has protection for bad cheques for a few dollars/mo.

The bank God set up in the OT workes quite well because it put the least burdon on the poorest. The guy who get a wefare cheque in direct deposit probably pays more in banking services than somebody who clears 100,000/yr ebven though the poorer ones uses the banking system the least. God notices things like that and those left in charge of those things will not necessairly get a pat on the back for a job well done. Simple because the poor are saddled with an expense that the rich could easily absorb with minimal impact to their wealth.

Farmers were also told to leave the corners of their fields for the poor at harvest time. It won't eliminate the poor.

The rich today would be the ones who own the 10 biggest banks, those ones intentionally keep some in poverty, God will certainly see them as being dead to faith, that isn't a good thing to have happen. The rich below that just don't care, donations to the poor usyually ave to be a tax-deduction so the poorest taxpayer pays for some of that donation indirectly.
 
MHz
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by eanassir View Post

Moreover, the rich has to be grateful to God for He bestowed on him such wealth; but it is a sin if the rich does not thank his Lord for his bounty.


Since money was mentioned near the very beginning it would seem to be a necessary evil. Used properly wealth can be a blessing, Job was said to be wealthy. One would expect that to be found favorable in God's view Job's servants were not kept as dirt-poor slaves. When money becomes more important than God then the evil part of it is winning.

Quote: Originally Posted by eanassir View Post

The rich should bear in mind that the wealth that he has is only a matter of trial to see will he be grateful and expend for the sake of God for the poor and the needy? Or will he be ungrateful and deprive the needy of their rights and be independent of God and His apostles and His revealed books: the Torah, the Gospel and the Quran.

I'm quite sure God doesn't make some rich to test them, that would be using temptation to do evil. I'm not all that convinced that rich and poor have rigid definitions. The rich man and the beggar Lazarus certainly applies to the needs of the body, as does the separation of the sheep and goats. Those are examples from the 4 Gospels, the Epistles have even more example by quote from Jesus should be enough to show the point as Scripture originally intended.

Quote: Originally Posted by eanassir View Post

Some of the rich think that he is preferred by God, and God loves him, therefore, He blessed him with his wealth; but this is wrong: God does not love this man, so that He made him rich, as does not He hate that man, so He made him poor. But all that is only a matter of trial.


Most often these day a person is born into wealth or born into poverty. I admit there are cases of the poor becoming rich or the rich becoming poor but in the vast majority id you are born into one class you are still in that class at death, your father and your sons will most likely live the same sort of life.

When the rich start doing things to assure those two classes never mingle to any great deal that is when things start to be hidden, from people and from God. Monarchs and serfs have been thy norm rather than the exception.

Quote: Originally Posted by eanassir View Post

In addition, the wealth may hinder man from devoting himself to God alone and from working for the prosperity in the kingdom of heaven in the next afterlife;
as is this understood from the rich man with Prophet Jesus, when Jesus said concerning him: as in the Gospel according to Matthew 19: 23-24
"23 Jesus said to his disciples, "Most assuredly I say to you, a rich man will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven with difficulty.
24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of God."

In the NT it was the rich man who wanted to follow Jesus, his first task was to give all he owned to the poor, it was too much to ask and he left keeping his earthly riches at the expense of 'the Kingdom'. The picture on the money is who it belongs to, if the owner calls it all back (depression and economic ruin) that is not God at work.
 
TenPenny
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by MHz View Post

The rich today would be the ones who own the 10 biggest banks, those ones intentionally keep some in poverty, God will certainly see them as being dead to faith, that isn't a good thing to have happen. The rich below that just don't care, donations to the poor usyually ave to be a tax-deduction so the poorest taxpayer pays for some of that donation indirectly.

Do you include all of the shareholders of the 10 biggest banks in that category of rich?
 
Johnnny
#10
Some people work hard for there hard earned pennies... If they choose to keep it thats there decision...
 
DurkaDurka
#11
 
Johnnny
#12
gimmie the cash money, ima get that gold, platinum for life
 
DurkaDurka
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by Johnnny View Post

gimmie the cash money, ima get that gold, platinum for life

bahahahahaha!
 
DurkaDurka
#14
 
captain morgan
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by MHz View Post

Nail the poor just as hard as you can seems to be a banking rule. Only the poorest can have a cheque bounce, the bank dings him about 40 and the other end also has some for of penalty. Might be 80 in total, don't tell me it costs the banks and the company 80 bucks for each transaction they do. Get a little higher up the ladder and the bank has protection for bad cheques for a few dollars/mo.


Only the 'poor' can have a cheque bounce?.. Yeah, sure. As far as the cost of a bounced cheque, how about don't write cheques that aren't covered and save yourself $80?... Blaming an individual's mismanagement on the rest of the world is not the answer.



Quote: Originally Posted by MHz View Post

The guy who get a wefare cheque in direct deposit probably pays more in banking services than somebody who clears 100,000/yr ebven though the poorer ones uses the banking system the least.


Your banking costs are directly related to your individual usage, it very little to do with your account balance. That said, those persons with significant funds deposited in a bank do receive preferenial treatment only because the bank makes money from their deposits - there is no bank that provides their facilities and services exclusively as a charitable function to society... If you don't like the fees then keep your cash under a matress or buried under the shed... Just don't bitch when it gets lost or stolen.

Quote: Originally Posted by MHz View Post

Simple because the poor are saddled with an expense that the rich could easily absorb with minimal impact to their wealth.


Since when is it the responsibility of 'the wealthy' to 'absorb' all of your banking costs?... Why are you so dead-set on demanding that others pay your way?



Quote: Originally Posted by MHz View Post

donations to the poor usyually ave to be a tax-deduction so the poorest taxpayer pays for some of that donation indirectly.


Your annual tax bill and the associated fees, GST/PST's, property taxes, mill rates and assessments aren't tax deductible, are they?


.... Time to stand-up and be counted buddy and stop this moaning about how everyone with a few more dollars than you owe you a living.
 
L Gilbert
#16
It's one thing to bring in an average wage and have a little in the bank for kids' education, daughters' weddings, etc. it's another to have millions and billions sitting around simply making more. Why? What good is it doing then? Even Bill Gates spreads his around. Pattison, too.
 
lone wolf
#17
My grandmother started bank accounts for each of her great grandkids. In three years, service charges ate the fifty bucks and the bank was demanding more.
 
captain morgan
#18
What's an average wage?.. The issue revolves around the relativity of what is wealth? More to the point, how does one measure wealth and what is rich and what is poor?

In terms of spreading-around the wealth, the CRA demands that this happens. When you combine the fed+prov taxes, the total exceeds 50% in some jurisdictions. Factor-in GST, PST payroll tax and all the other add-ons and you see that the fact is that the more you make, the more you contribute in both actual dollars as well as a higher %.

Last point, you will see the highest and most damning poverty in those countries that have yet to fully advance their economies and societies. These nations/regions where you see the Bill Gates' of the world ensure that the tax system demands that the money be spread around, but also allows that people have the opportunity to generate profits with no ceiling.

The bottom line is that the very moment that you restrict (driectly or indirectly) the amount of money that one can earn is the exact moment that the individuals/companies that contribute the most into the system will leave.
 
SirJosephPorter
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by L Gilbert View Post

IMO, it is a sin (I prefer the term "bad aspect") to be greedy, to want more than one needs at the expense of others.

I don’t believe in sin, Gilbert, in my opinion, nothing is sinful. There can be such a thing as unethical, but sinful? ‘Sinful’ doesn’t make sense to me.

And I don’t know what you mean by ‘at the expense of others’. If you are talking about exploiting the poor, benefiting from other peoples’ misery (like making money from tobacco, for instance), then I agree, that would definitely be unethical.

However, in capitalistic system, one person makes money, sometimes at the expense of another. Thus, if I make money from stock market, it sometimes comes at the expense of other investors. If I bought low, sold high and made money in a stock, that means that there was some poor schmo who sold low (when I bought), bought high (when I sold) and thus lost money.

Well, I refuse to feel sorry for the poor schmo. If there are two businesses in the same neighbourhood (two dry cleaning stores, two restaurants etc.), one may prosper and the other may go belly up. You could say that one is making money at the expense of others. There is nothing wrong with that, that is how capitalism, free enterprise works.

So one has to be careful when saying that one shoud not make money at the expense of others. It all depends upon the circumstances.
 
SirJosephPorter
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by L Gilbert View Post

It's one thing to bring in an average wage and have a little in the bank for kids' education, daughters' weddings, etc. it's another to have millions and billions sitting around simply making more. Why? What good is it doing then? Even Bill Gates spreads his around. Pattison, too.


What you are saying sounds suspiciously like Communism, Gilbert. If people have millions and use it to make more money, what is wrong with that?

We started from scratch and we have done very well indeed financially. I being an IT professional, my wife being a doctor and both earning to our full capacity (and living frugally) has made us very well off financially.

I use that money to make more money in the stock market. There is nothing wrong with that. While we made our money the hard way, there are some who are born into money. There is nothing wrong with that either, it is the luck of the draw.

So what is your advice to somebody who has millions sitting in the stock market making even more money? That they donate all their surplus money to the poor? That is never going to happen.

In life each of us finds his/her own level. Each of us finds different levels of money, comfort, happiness etc. There is nothing wrong with that. The world would be a boring place indeed, if everybody has same amount of money, if everybody ad an average wage and a little more in the bank. There are rich, there are poor and it is always going to be that way.

By hard work, frugal living and smart investments, we have achieved financial security and level of comfort that we desire. I am not ashamed of it, and I am not about to donate my surplus money to anybody (though we do donate to charities).
 
GreenFish66
#21
Give it your best .Never get it all ..Enjoy what you have or you'll never know till it's gone...

Treat people like you want to be treated..Unless your rich, than at least treat the People fair...
 
lone wolf
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by SirJosephPorter View Post

...If people have millions and use it to make more money, what is wrong with that?...

Investors.... Aren't they the very people Harper policies work for ... the Right wing? Face it, Joey.... You are the stereotypical Conservative....
 
GreenFish66
#23
Conservative/conservative..Can't get any greener than that...lol
 
TenPenny
#24
Interesting thread.

Here in NB, we are home to the Irving clan. Interesting thing about that family is that their money is, for the most part, plowed back into businesses, growth, and job creation. These guys don't sit around, they work 10-12 hours a day, creating more jobs for more people.

Still, there are lots of folks around who hate them for working hard and being successful.
 
eanassir
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by MHz View Post

I'm quite sure God doesn't make some rich to test them, that would be using temptation to do evil. I'm not all that convinced that rich and poor have rigid definitions.


Those who believed Prophet Mohammed at the start of his mission were the rich and the poor.

It is not necessarily a man is rich or poor in order to believe and be righteous.

But generally speaking, the richness makes man lofty and haughty and will be tyrant → then will disbelieve and will be independent of God and His religion, and will usually deny the next afterlife.

Any bounty he gains, he says I have got this according to my intelligence and hard work (while it is his decreed provision, and he only gets it by working and striving; and may even gets it without any effort, and it comes to him while sitting at home.)

Therefore, when man becomes rich, he should be alert to this point, and should be grateful to his Lord Who created and bestowed on him the richness and other bounties.

I saw a man who came with his car, then slapped the door of his car when he came out of it,and I astonished how he stamped haughtily on the earth with his steps feeling much pride, and all people started respecting him, calling him "hajjie"; because his pocket was full of money

While, it is not good to respect man according to his money, but according to his righteousness only and his knowledge and his morale and good manner.

The money has a magic influence on man; and I became alert that in the days I gained some money, I felt some assuredness and felt self confidence; while it is some bad thing to feel such attitude because of the money, but because of the almsgiving, if there has been any such almsgiving, and according to the thanksgiving and gratitude in case there has been any such gratitude to God.

On the other hand, generally speaking, the poor clings more to God; he supplicates God to give him out of His surplus, to save him from dangers and adversity, and to protect him in his daily life.

So in general the poor is better than the rich.

But in case the rich gives out of his provision, and the poor forbears patiently → this will be very good for them in the next afterlife.

Concerning what you said about the trial: Everything in this World is a trial; this Worldly life is a trial, and the next afterlife is the recompense and reward.

This is in the Quran 21: 35
كُلُّ نَفْسٍ ذَائِقَةُ الْمَوْتِ وَنَبْلُوكُم بِالشَّرِّ وَالْخَيْرِ فِتْنَةً وَإِلَيْنَا تُرْجَعُونَ

The explanation:
(Every soul shall taste of death;

and We try you with evil [one time] and [another time with] good for a testing,

then unto Us you shall be returned [and We shall recompense you accordingly].)
Last edited by eanassir; May 19th, 2009 at 02:34 PM..
 
SirJosephPorter
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by GreenFish66 View Post

Give it your best .Never get it all ..Enjoy what you have or you'll never know till it's gone...

Treat people like you want to be treated..Unless your rich, than at least treat the People fair...

I agree totally, Greenfish. Give your best in any endeavor. Hope for the best, be prepared for the worst. Normal outcome is usually between the best and the worst.
 
MHz
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by captain morgan View Post

Only the 'poor' can have a cheque bounce?.. Yeah, sure. As far as the cost of a bounced cheque, how about don't write cheques that aren't covered and save yourself $80?... Blaming an individual's mismanagement on the rest of the world is not the answer.

Oh you know some rich people who bounce cheques? How is asking why it costs $80 for a bounced cheque blaming the rest of the world. At most it costs the banks a few pennies.

Quote: Originally Posted by captain morgan View Post

Your banking costs are directly related to your individual usage, it very little to do with your account balance. That said, those persons with significant funds deposited in a bank do receive preferenial treatment only because the bank makes money from their deposits - there is no bank that provides their facilities and services exclusively as a charitable function to society... If you don't like the fees then keep your cash under a matress or buried under the shed... Just don't bitch when it gets lost or stolen.

You do get the point that my post was about how the Bible covers banking and not this current system. It has some interesting ideas that include how usury is to be used and how it is not. In that respect you post has no bearing on that aspect.

Quote: Originally Posted by captain morgan View Post

Since when is it the responsibility of 'the wealthy' to 'absorb' all of your banking costs?... Why are you so dead-set on demanding that others pay your way?

See above comment.

Quote: Originally Posted by captain morgan View Post

Your annual tax bill and the associated fees, GST/PST's, property taxes, mill rates and assessments aren't tax deductible, are they?

I was thinking more along the line of the 'give to the poor' type of charities that are tax-deductable.

Quote: Originally Posted by captain morgan View Post

.... Time to stand-up and be counted buddy and stop this moaning about how everyone with a few more dollars than you owe you a living.

Time to get with the topic, the Bible and usury and the Bible and the rich. What made you think my post was a personal life-story?
 
MHz
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by eanassir View Post

Those who believed Prophet Mohammed at the start of his mission were the rich and the poor.

It is not necessarily a man is rich or poor in order to believe and be righteous.

But generally speaking, the richness makes man lofty and haughty and will be tyrant → then will disbelieve and will be independent of God and His religion, and will usually deny the next afterlife.

Any bounty he gains, he says I have got this according to my intelligence and hard work (while it is his decreed provision, and he only gets it by working and striving; and may even gets it without any effort, and it comes to him while sitting at home.)

Therefore, when man becomes rich, he should be alert to this point, and should be grateful to his Lord Who created and bestowed on him the richness and other bounties.

I saw a man who came with his car, then slapped the door of his car when he came out of it,and I astonished how he stamped haughtily on the earth with his steps feeling much pride, and all people started respecting him, calling him "hajjie"; because his pocket was full of money

While, it is not good to respect man according to his money, but according to his righteousness only and his knowledge and his morale and good manner.

The money has a magic influence on man; and I became alert that in the days I gained some money, I felt some assuredness and felt self confidence; while it is some bad thing to feel such attitude because of the money, but because of the almsgiving, if there has been any such almsgiving, and according to the thanksgiving and gratitude in case there has been any such gratitude to God.

On the other hand, generally speaking, the poor clings more to God; he supplicates God to give him out of His surplus, to save him from dangers and adversity, and to protect him in his daily life.

So in general the poor is better than the rich.

But in case the rich gives out of his provision, and the poor forbears patiently → this will be very good for them in the next afterlife.

Concerning what you said about the trial: Everything in this World is a trial; this Worldly life is a trial, and the next afterlife is the recompense and reward.

This is in the Quran 21: 35
كُلُّ نَفْسٍ ذَائِقَةُ الْمَوْتِ وَنَبْلُوكُم بِالشَّرِّ وَالْخَيْرِ فِتْنَةً وَإِلَيْنَا تُرْجَعُونَ

The explanation:
(Every soul shall taste of death;

and We try you with evil [one time] and [another time with] good for a testing,

then unto Us you shall be returned [and We shall recompense you accordingly].)

I seem to recall reading some account that said in the stock market crash of 1930's more than a few formerly rich people found relief only in jumping to their deaths. I doubt anybody that was already poor did that, not that their suffering didn't get worse and I am sure there was more than a few deaths attributed to food and not being able to keep warm. What makes it evil is that some knew it was going to happen so they sold out at the still high prices and as soon as things hit bottom they bought it back for pennies. Rothschild did that to get control of England. He got word 24 hrs before anybody else that Napoleon lost. He started the rumor that he won, everybody sold and he bought it up for pennies. If that was a rarity I would be less leery of the rich but they can and do use tactics just like that. That is just making sure there are only so many rich people. You would think that once you started to hoard money it might be time to lower the prices on your products. The shareholders would have you killed if you did that.

Life will throw us enough temptations to test us. If God was really testing us He could do it by having a 5spot fall out of an poor looking elderly person and have us see it. What we did next would determine our true worth in the Kingdom.
Some of the stories of big lottery winners doesn't seem to have been all roses and wine after cashing it.
 
captain morgan
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by MHz View Post

Oh you know some rich people who bounce cheques? How is asking why it costs $80 for a bounced cheque blaming the rest of the world. At most it costs the banks a few pennies.


Yes, I do know some.. They may bounce for different reasons, but it happens. It is a reality and it's time to get organized or pay the price. As far as the $80 fee, let's reverse the roles. You are promised your paycheque on a certain day and magically it doesn't appear... Are you OK with that? Does it not cause you problems/concerns? Do you not speak to your employer/client and possibly take some form of action (drop the client if it happens too often or change employers)?... Of course you do. That said, don't get upset 'cause the banks do the same.




Quote: Originally Posted by MHz View Post

You do get the point that my post was about how the Bible covers banking and not this current system. It has some interesting ideas that include how usury is to be used and how it is not. In that respect you post has no bearing on that aspect.

No, i didn't get the point, particularly as you are railing at 'the rich' and the banks for charging for NSF... I can't say for sure, but I'm pretty certain that the banks back in the Old Testament didn't have ATM's or chequing accounts... That said, there would be no bounced cheques, right?




Quote: Originally Posted by MHz View Post

I was thinking more along the line of the 'give to the poor' type of charities that are tax-deductable.


It does happen. But the reality is that in Canada, taxes (up 53% - Que) are collected in order to redistributethe $$ and help the poor. Each time that the feds/prov raise the income tax rates, the first casuality are the charities. Ironically, the CRA plays the role of beggaring more Canadians in the name of 'helping the poor'.


Quote: Originally Posted by MHz View Post

Time to get with the topic, the Bible and usury and the Bible and the rich. What made you think my post was a personal life-story?


Please see above explanations RE: banking facilities/practices during the OT times. Further, there were also penalties associated with non-payment back then... Ignoring that reality doesn't further your argument.
 
eanassir
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by MHz View Post

Life will throw us enough temptations to test us. If God was really testing us He could do it by having a 5spot fall out of an poor looking elderly person and have us see it. What we did next would determine our true worth in the Kingdom.


If we study this aya 21: 35 and many other similar ayat in the Glorious Quran: the marvelous word of God: what we see:
كُلُّ نَفْسٍ ذَائِقَةُ الْمَوْتِ وَنَبْلُوكُم بِالشَّرِّ وَالْخَيْرِ فِتْنَةً وَإِلَيْنَا تُرْجَعُونَ

The explanation:
(Every soul shall taste of death;

and We try you with evil [one time] and [another time with] good for a testing,

then unto Us you shall be returned [and We shall recompense you accordingly].)
--------------------------------------------------------------

It is not only the trial with poverty and richness, but with health and disease, with fear and security, with war and peace, with happiness and misery …etc.

I may not be good in English, but I tell you a parable in Arabic: the hammering of metals: if the metal is bad like some rusty iron or bad copper it will crack by hammering and appear with its true nature. But if the metal is gold, as much as do they hammer it, as much will it appear as pure gold.

Therefore, this is the trial (and we should not wish for such trial; I seek refuge with God from the consequences: man may fail.)

The circumstances and situations and experiences that man faces in this World, will put him under this trial to expose his true faith or hypocrisy and wickedness.

As in the Quran 29: 2-3
أَحَسِبَ النَّاسُ أَن يُتْرَكُوا أَن يَقُولُوا آمَنَّا وَهُمْ لَا يُفْتَنُونَ . وَلَقَدْ فَتَنَّا الَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِهِمْ فَلَيَعْلَمَنَّ اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ صَدَقُوا وَلَيَعْلَمَنَّ الْكَاذِبِينَ
The explanation:
( Do the people [who have believed] think that they will be left [merely for] that they say: "We believe", and will not be tried [by the struggle in God's way.]


We certainly tried those that were before them,

and assuredly God knows those who are truthful, and assuredly He knows the untruthful.)


And also like this aya 2: 214
أَمْ حَسِبْتُمْ أَن تَدْخُلُواْ الْجَنَّةَ وَلَمَّا يَأْتِكُم مَّثَلُ الَّذِينَ خَلَوْاْ مِن قَبْلِكُم مَّسَّتْهُمُ الْبَأْسَاء وَالضَّرَّاء وَزُلْزِلُواْ حَتَّى يَقُولَ الرَّسُولُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ مَعَهُ مَتَى نَصْرُ اللّهِ أَلا إِنَّ نَصْرَ اللّهِ قَرِيبٌ

The explanation:
(Or do you deem [O believers] that you will be admitted into Paradise while yet there has not come to you the like of [that which came to] those who passed away before you?

They were encountered with affliction and suffering and were [so much] troubled,

so that the messenger [of God] and those who believed with him said: 'When will the help of God come!?'

[The messenger would answer them:] 'Surely, the help of God is approaching.')

http://quranandhebrewbible.t35.com

quranandhebrewbible.t35.com
 

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