The 2010 Charade (Winter Olympics)


captain morgan
#61
Quote: Originally Posted by JLM View Post

Yeah, but benefits for whom?.........not the wage slave.

Who do you think benefits JLM?
 
JLM
#62
Quote: Originally Posted by captain morgan View Post

Who do you think benefits JLM?

A few contractors, a few suppliers, and the hospitality industry, but how much do these benefactors contribute toward the huge expense, which the taxpayer has to shoulder. Then there's all the crap that goes on behind the scenes, like outfits getting plum contracts because of who they know. Part of the cost falls on tenants in low rent housing who see their rents jacked up or their eviction notice. How much taxpayers money is getting wasted on upgrading the Sea-Sky Hwy. which in all likelyhood will never serve a permanent population of over 70,000? Money that could have replaced Patullo Bridge.......something that is drastically needed just for public safely.
 
Tonington
#63
Quote: Originally Posted by JLM View Post

Yeah, but benefits for whom?.........not the wage slave.

Construction work (jobs)
Service industries (jobs)
Tourism (recoup some tax revenue)
Amateur sports (more capacity)
Tax payers get new infrastructure (transport and communications)
Boost in economic growth (how did Vancouver do during this economic recession?)
 
JLM
#64
Quote: Originally Posted by #juan View Post

Those ten blocks of drug dealers and addicts are already breaking the law by living in condemned buildings. The concept of working for a living is completely foreign to these people. Separate any and all children that would be in danger, remove everybody from the hovels and bulldoze the dumps into the ground. Put these people to work...Invent jobs if we have to but get them to work. The experience will be good for them and it would likely be cheaper than the crimes they commit.

Yep, there's SOME truth in what you say, but for of them there are mental issues that have to be addressed. If you bulldoze all those buildings, then you've taken away their dwelling and it's pretty hard to be able to report to work on time clean shaven and appropriately attired when you are living in a cardboard box under a bridge.
 
captain morgan
#65
Quote: Originally Posted by JLM View Post

A few contractors, a few suppliers, and the hospitality industry, but how much do these benefactors contribute toward the huge expense, which the taxpayer has to shoulder. Then there's all the crap that goes on behind the scenes, like outfits getting plum contracts because of who they know. Part of the cost falls on tenants in low rent housing who see their rents jacked up or their eviction notice. How much taxpayers money is getting wasted on upgrading the Sea-Sky Hwy. which in all likelyhood will never serve a permanent population of over 70,000? Money that could have replaced Patullo Bridge.......something that is drastically needed just for public safely.

Consider the trickle-down tax revenues that will be realized by the city/province. Not only do you have the direct employment benefits that Tonington identified, you also have thousands of tourists staying in hotels, eating, drinking, buying stuff and supporting all of those busines' that provide the product/service. Factor-in the PST on all that in addition to to the increased corporate taxes and increased personal taxes and the money grows significantly.

Hell, I'll bet that the new gas tax alone will reap massive benefits over that short period of time.

Selling this line that a few suppliers, contractors and workers will benefit is short-sighted. Believe me, you, personally will benefit from these games JLM, not directly perhaps, but very clearly in the med-long run.
 
darkbeaver
#66
Quote: Originally Posted by Tonington View Post

Construction work (jobs)
Service industries (jobs)
Tourism (recoup some tax revenue)
Amateur sports (more capacity)
Tax payers get new infrastructure (transport and communications)
Boost in economic growth (how did Vancouver do during this economic recession?)

Hey that's the same spin-off list Drapeau used on unsuspecting Montrealers. If you'll look at them you'll see right away that none of them are productive occupations and the taxpayer pays regardless. If economic growth does not start at the first rung of society it isn't economic growth. Construction work is wasted on sports facilities, games and specticals are nonproductive entertainment. Sure we get new infrastructure but where does it lead and what does it provide for further productive enterprise. I don't suppose it would do any good to throw the specter of global depression into the mix, which means quite simply that these Olympics will be a spectacular bust.
 
JLM
#67
Quote: Originally Posted by captain morgan View Post

Consider the trickle-down tax revenues that will be realized by the city/province. Not only do you have the direct employment benefits that Tonington identified, you also have thousands of tourists staying in hotels, eating, drinking, buying stuff and supporting all of those busines' that provide the product/service. Factor-in the PST on all that in addition to to the increased corporate taxes and increased personal taxes and the money grows significantly.

Hell, I'll bet that the new gas tax alone will reap massive benefits over that short period of time.

Selling this line that a few suppliers, contractors and workers will benefit is short-sighted. Believe me, you, personally will benefit from these games JLM, not directly perhaps, but very clearly in the med-long run.

I hope you're right, perhaps your opinion is better than mine, BUT i DON'T THINK SO.
 
captain morgan
#68
Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaver View Post

Hey that's the same spin-off list Drapeau used on unsuspecting Montrealers. If you'll look at them you'll see right away that none of them are productive occupations and the taxpayer pays regardless. If economic growth does not start at the first rung of society it isn't economic growth. Construction work is wasted on sports facilities, games and specticals are nonproductive entertainment. Sure we get new infrastructure but where does it lead and what does it provide for further productive enterprise. I don't suppose it would do any good to throw the specter of global depression into the mix, which means quite simply that these Olympics will be a spectacular bust.


To the best of my knowledge, most (if not all) of the Olympic cities since Calgary '88 have profited considerably from the games.

I'm a little confused about the 'productive' occupations you mentioned. In large part, the majority of the capital is spent on facilities and infrastructure which takes requires construction personnel, engineers, admin, etc.. Factor in the international investment that is directly infused via real estate/resort/hotel development and not only does the workforce expand (many permanent positions), but the availability of facilities as well. Further to all this, the province has received grants for facilities/infrastructure development from the feds. Lastly, the exposure that the city/prov receives will yield long-term dividends in terms of tourism and outside investment.

Assuming that the province aren't complete bumbling fools that are incapable of copying the models from close to a dozen other cities that have profited, Vancouver and BC will also profit immensely. If done even half-way correctly, this will pay-out for years to come.

BTW - The point of the future use of specialty facilities like speed skating ovals or ski jumps do also offer a long term potential. Calgary's facilities have been used by many nations that train years in advance for these events - of course, one must rent the facility and over time it's no longer a drag on the tax payer and may even generate positive cash flow and actual profits.
 
Tonington
#69
Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaver View Post

Hey that's the same spin-off list Drapeau used on unsuspecting Montrealers. If you'll look at them you'll see right away that none of them are productive occupations and the taxpayer pays regardless. If economic growth does not start at the first rung of society it isn't economic growth. Construction work is wasted on sports facilities, games and specticals are nonproductive entertainment. Sure we get new infrastructure but where does it lead and what does it provide for further productive enterprise. I don't suppose it would do any good to throw the specter of global depression into the mix, which means quite simply that these Olympics will be a spectacular bust.

It's not supposed to be long term job creation DB. It's a one time event, which means a short term boost. Construction work is construction work. Students pay for school with construction work. Trades folk feed their families with construction work.
 
#juan
#70
Quote: Originally Posted by JLM View Post

Yep, there's SOME truth in what you say, but for of them there are mental issues that have to be addressed. If you bulldoze all those buildings, then you've taken away their dwelling and it's pretty hard to be able to report to work on time clean shaven and appropriately attired when you are living in a cardboard box under a bridge.

No. There is a hard core who want to live in filth. If we bulldoze the dumps they are living in now, that hard core will spring up somewhere else, bringing their drugs, crime, and violence with them. MentaL issues???....They simply don't want to live by civilized rules. Most of these people are probably not get clean shaven and work in an office. Make jobs for those who want jobs and put the rest in some kind of rehabilitation detention....Maybe a prison farm.
 
Unforgiven
#71
Quote: Originally Posted by #juan View Post

No. There is a hard core who want to live in filth. If we bulldoze the dumps they are living in now, that hard core will spring up somewhere else, bringing their drugs, crime, and violence with them. MentaL issues???....They simply don't want to live by civilized rules. Most of these people are probably not get clean shaven and work in an office. Make jobs for those who want jobs and put the rest in some kind of rehabilitation detention....Maybe a prison farm.

This is true in a way, some people just don't want to join up with society on anything but their terms. I think there is a reason under all the stuff they throw up to put your off. They use a wall to protect themselves against the hurt they have decided comes from socially acceptable norms.

If you don't have a job you can't get fired. If you don't have a home you can't get kicked out. If you don't care for anyone they can't break your heart or betray you.
The drugs and addiction are just an attempt to self medicate that pain away.

We just don't really have the answers to deal with that sort of thing effectively.
Getting someone clean and sober isn't all that difficult. Getting someone to trust you after all the problems they have had, is a tough one. Getting them to trust you enough that even though they are letting down all those defenses and having the resources in place to effectively deal with the worst ones is a tall order.

You can lock people up in prison but that isn't going to change their life style. Sooner or later you have to release them and they return to familiar haunts, run into the same people and problems and end up back in the same position you arrested them for in the first place.

You don't quit smoking hanging out with all your smoker friends watching them smoke. You don't quit drinking with all your drinking buddies in the bar drinking.

I think you have to help them change their lifestyle, deal with the real problems that got them addicted to drugs or alcohol or whatever and support them in their new lifestyle in a new place so they can make new friends away from the addiction to develop the new routines that will make them successful at holding a job, maintaining a place to live and dealing with the stress in a healthy way.

I think unless you're willing to do that, then you're doomed to fail and suffer the problems as is.
 
#juan
#72
Quote: Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post

This is true in a way, some people just don't want to join up with society on anything but their terms. I think there is a reason under all the stuff they throw up to put your off. They use a wall to protect themselves against the hurt they have decided comes from socially acceptable norms.

If you don't have a job you can't get fired. If you don't have a home you can't get kicked out. If you don't care for anyone they can't break your heart or betray you.
The drugs and addiction are just an attempt to self medicate that pain away.

We just don't really have the answers to deal with that sort of thing effectively.
Getting someone clean and sober isn't all that difficult. Getting someone to trust you after all the problems they have had, is a tough one. Getting them to trust you enough that even though they are letting down all those defenses and having the resources in place to effectively deal with the worst ones is a tall order.

You can lock people up in prison but that isn't going to change their life style. Sooner or later you have to release them and they return to familiar haunts, run into the same people and problems and end up back in the same position you arrested them for in the first place.

You don't quit smoking hanging out with all your smoker friends watching them smoke. You don't quit drinking with all your drinking buddies in the bar drinking.

I think you have to help them change their lifestyle, deal with the real problems that got them addicted to drugs or alcohol or whatever and support them in their new lifestyle in a new place so they can make new friends away from the addiction to develop the new routines that will make them successful at holding a job, maintaining a place to live and dealing with the stress in a healthy way.

I think unless you're willing to do that, then you're doomed to fail and suffer the problems as is.

I have a hard time finding sympathy for the drug trade that is responsible 70 percent of all crime. Dumping them in jail sounds harsh but so are the three or four deaths every week related to the drug trade.
 
AnnaG
#73
Quote: Originally Posted by JLM View Post

I didn't realize the N.D.P. were the perpetrators of this nonsense, thought it was Big Gord. I think any gov't. that wades into something like this should have the money in a separate account in the bank up front.

Me too, and out of donors pockets, not the public's pockets. Same idea as any other event; the gov't should ask what the people want before committing millions of public money into something that we could get by without having. It's insane what the Dippers did. And Campbull is simply adding to the insanity. But that's politics for you. There's really very little wisdom in politics.
 
JLM
#74
Quote: Originally Posted by #juan View Post

No. There is a hard core who want to live in filth. If we bulldoze the dumps they are living in now, that hard core will spring up somewhere else, bringing their drugs, crime, and violence with them. MentaL issues???....They simply don't want to live by civilized rules. Most of these people are probably not get clean shaven and work in an office. Make jobs for those who want jobs and put the rest in some kind of rehabilitation detention....Maybe a prison farm.

I don't think it's all that easy. A prison farm for people who are their own worst enemies??? You really want to criminalize sick people? The violent ones, yes, you have to keep them detained & out of circulation, but do you really want to saddle the taxpayer with about $500 a day on an unmotivated druggie?
 
JLM
#75
Quote: Originally Posted by AnnaG View Post

Me too, and out of donors pockets, not the public's pockets. Same idea as any other event; the gov't should ask what the people want before committing millions of public money into something that we could get by without having. It's insane what the Dippers did. And Campbull is simply adding to the insanity. But that's politics for you. There's really very little wisdom in politics.

Anna- right there you've just about summarized my entire philosophy....
Bet the N.D.P. are having giggles over this- I just never realized they engineered it.
 
#juan
#76
Quote: Originally Posted by JLM View Post

I don't think it's all that easy. A prison farm for people who are their own worst enemies??? You really want to criminalize sick people? The violent ones, yes, you have to keep them detained & out of circulation, but do you really want to saddle the taxpayer with about $500 a day on an unmotivated druggie?

You don't understand JLM. These people are criminals. They commit over 70 percent of all crime. The taxpayer is already suffering from their crime. Most of the people in the drug scene have been in it for years. They will always cost us money, one way or another. Jail might add a modicum of protection from each other.
 
AnnaG
#77
Quote: Originally Posted by Tonington View Post

Construction work (jobs)
Service industries (jobs)
Tourism (recoup some tax revenue)
Amateur sports (more capacity)
Tax payers get new infrastructure (transport and communications)
Boost in economic growth (how did Vancouver do during this economic recession?)

Yep. All lower mainland. The rest of BC pays its half of the tax bill. Lovely. I don't mind paying taxes to keep schools going even though my kids aren't in them anymore, but this isn't what I would call a good return on my tax dollar.
Speaking of taxes, what of all the taxes that we'll gain from the tourists' dollars? Why, they'll be spent maintaining everything that it cost us to build for the Olympics in the first place. All by itself, Montreal's dome cost $600K/year to maintain.
Last edited by AnnaG; Jul 11th, 2009 at 02:43 PM..
 
Liberalman
#78
Having an international event in a Canadian city is never a waste of time.

Toronto could have had an international event but because of Bread Not Circuses who took the bread out of the poor people's mouth Toronto lost out.
 
coldstream
#79
Quote: Originally Posted by JLM View Post

What do you think of the whole thing?


I was hoping Toronto would get the Summer Olympics, which is really the Big Show as far as the Olympics go.

My problem with the Winter Olympics.

1. They really encompass at most 1/6th of the world's population, about 1 billion people..north and south of the 40 degrees latitudes.

2. The sports are highly contrived constructs, few of which existed prior to the 20th Century. They require highly specialized equipment and terrain. Some are exciting, like Alpine Skiing or involve rigourous effort like speed skating, and cross country skiing (even those become repetitive).. but none have the purity and universal experience of swimming, track sports or the flat water events.

3. The new sports coming into the Olympics all seem to be retreads from the X games. Snowboarding, Freestyle Skiing and such come from a kind of Yahoo Gen Y culture, involve a lot of subjective 'style' judging.. and really are pretty boring to watch.

4. The 'legacy' of these sports, one of the big selling points, in the Winter Olympics tend to be facilities that are used by competitive athletes not the general public. That's what happened with the Calgary Olympics. And the Vancouver Olympics seem destined for a big deficit which will take years and decades to pay off.

I'll watch of course, and pull for the home team, but i wonder if its worth all the hassle and expense.
 
AnnaG
#80
Quote: Originally Posted by JLM View Post

Anna- right there you've just about summarized my entire philosophy....
Bet the N.D.P. are having giggles over this- I just never realized they engineered it.

Feb 28, 2006 is when Vancouver got the Olympic flag. But before that,

Quote:

The Canadian Olympic Association chose Vancouver as the Canadian candidate city over Calgary, which sought to re-host the games and Quebec City, which had lost the 2002 Olympic bid in 1995. On the first round of voting on November 21, 1998, Vancouver-Whistler had 26 votes, Quebec City with 25 and Calgary 21. On December 3, 1998, the second and final round of voting occurred between the two leading contenders, which saw Vancouver win with 40 votes compared to Quebec City's 32.

The NDP were governing from '91 till '98, I think. Maybe a little longer.
 
AnnaG
#81
Speaking of taxes, what of all the taxes that we'll gain from the tourists' dollars? Why, they'll be spent maintaining everything that it cost us to build for the Olympics in the first place. All by itself, Montreal's dome cost $600K/year to maintain.
 
gerryh
#82
Quote: Originally Posted by AnnaG View Post

Feb 28, 2006 is when Vancouver got the Olympic flag. But before that,

The NDP were governing from '91 till '98, I think. Maybe a little longer.


The NDP were in power untill the summer of 2001......I got the hell out of BC as soon as the election showed the crook campbell and his henchmen had won.
 
AnnaG
#83
I can certainly understand that Gerry. Good for you. But, I can also understand why people and businesses scooted out of BC when Clark and Harcourt were the big cheeses.
As for our excuse for staying? We love it here in the Kootenays. It's beautiful. (I should post some pics)
 
Mowich
#84
Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaver View Post

There's nothing like watching spoiled privilaged clowns beating the clocks for kicks while the planet falls into ruin at the hands of the filthy bankers. The olympics should be banned forever as the giant obscene spectacle that it is. Who gives a **** if you can ski fast?

DB, not all of our Canadian atheletes are spoiled or privileged. Many of them come from lower middle-class backgrounds from little towns all across our country.

I was totally against holding the Olympics when the subject first was raised. Living in the Interior of BC, as I do, we will not see so much as $1 dollar of benefits via the Olympics.

That said, and faced with the fact that we are stuck with them now, I will be supporting our Canadian atheletes all the way. It takes courage, tenacity, endurance, passion, and inner strengh to become a world class athelete and I for one, applaud them.

But then, that's just my opinion.
 
AnnaG
#85
Quote: Originally Posted by Mowich View Post

DB, not all of our Canadian atheletes are spoiled or privileged. Many of them come from lower middle-class backgrounds from little towns all across our country.

I was totally against holding the Olympics when the subject first was raised. Living in the Interior of BC, as I do, we will not see so much as $1 dollar of benefits via the Olympics.

That said, and faced with the fact that we are stuck with them now, I will be supporting our Canadian atheletes all the way. It takes courage, tenacity, endurance, passion, and inner strengh to become a world class athelete and I for one, applaud them.

But then, that's just my opinion.

Yup. It isn't like we can turn it all off now, might as well just keep giving the appropriate people the dirty looks and make the best job of it as possible.
Canada is nothing in its attention to its athletes in comparison to the USA, China, some European countries. I here evidence of Canuck athletes needing this, that, and the other thing a lot (in spite of the fact that they're supposed to be funded by the lottery proceeds) and never hear of Yanks needing anything.
 
Mowich
#86
Quote: Originally Posted by AnnaG View Post

Yup. It isn't like we can turn it all off now, might as well just keep giving the appropriate people the dirty looks and make the best job of it as possible.
Canada is nothing in its attention to its athletes in comparison to the USA, China, some European countries. I here evidence of Canuck athletes needing this, that, and the other thing a lot (in spite of the fact that they're supposed to be funded by the lottery proceeds) and never hear of Yanks needing anything.


Had to laugh a couple of weeks ago as I watched the Colbert show (I think he secretly likes Canada as he brings us up a lot). He was going on about US speed skaters not getting as much ice time as they wanted, not true as it turns out but it led to Richmond inviting him to be the unofficial ombudsman for the speed skating oval. Probably what he wanted in the first place.

The person deserving of most of those dirty looks, our own 'inglorious bastard' Campbell, will more than likely resign right after the last medal has been awarded in order to avoid all the flack that is sure to result when the financial numbers start rolling in, IMHO.
 
AnnaG
#87
Quote: Originally Posted by Mowich View Post

Had to laugh a couple of weeks ago as I watched the Colbert show (I think he secretly likes Canada as he brings us up a lot). He was going on about US speed skaters not getting as much ice time as they wanted, not true as it turns out but it led to Richmond inviting him to be the unofficial ombudsman for the speed skating oval. Probably what he wanted in the first place.

Yeah, he's pretty good at pretending to be those he's actually mocking. lol

Quote:

The person deserving of most of those dirty looks, our own 'inglorious bastard' Campbell, will more than likely resign right after the last medal has been awarded in order to avoid all the flack that is sure to result when the financial numbers start rolling in, IMHO.

And that other "inglorious bastard" that applied for the Olys in the first place, Glen Cluck. Dippers got us into it and Gliberals make it worse.
 
Risus
#88
Quote: Originally Posted by Liberalman View Post

Having an international event in a Canadian city is never a waste of time.

Toronto could have had an international event but because of Bread Not Circuses who took the bread out of the poor people's mouth Toronto lost out.

Why put the city into debt over the damn Olympics??
 
JLM
#89
Quote: Originally Posted by Risus View Post

Why put the city into debt over the damn Olympics??

While it was a good subject for ridicule at one time, it's a little late now to be begroaning the Olympics.............what I'm praying for now is a large miracle that they will be a success, & if I have to be wrong once or twice in my life, let this be one of the times. AS far as having an international event in a Canadian city never being a waste of time, we all know that's a crock. Just check out Montreal 1967 and Monteal 1976 for starters.
 
darkbeaver
#90
Quote: Originally Posted by Mowich View Post

DB, not all of our Canadian atheletes are spoiled or privileged. Many of them come from lower middle-class backgrounds from little towns all across our country.

I was totally against holding the Olympics when the subject first was raised. Living in the Interior of BC, as I do, we will not see so much as $1 dollar of benefits via the Olympics.

That said, and faced with the fact that we are stuck with them now, I will be supporting our Canadian atheletes all the way. It takes courage, tenacity, endurance, passion, and inner strengh to become a world class athelete and I for one, applaud them.

But then, that's just my opinion.


"It takes courage, tenacity, endurance, passion, and inner strengh to become a world class athelete and I for one, applaud them."

And what bloody use is it to the world and the people who live on it? Do they build? Do they invent? Do they create? Do they discover? Do they give to the poor? Do they save kittens? What what what bloody good are you because you can fly down a hill on barrel staves faster than the next idiot on barrel staves. They contribute to nothing but the circus specticle that passes too easily in todays fuzzy wuzzy world for accomplishment which itself passes for worth when it is quite plainly more valueless entertainment. Don't expect me to applaud people who throw away courage tenacity endurance passion and inner strengh to become a statistical success. You and I both know that on this planet right now on every continent there are millions of people who display the same virtuous characteristics every day just trying to feed themselves or save there familys. So when will we ever find the time to gaze in awe at those real life accomplishments when these spoiled deluded pups plug the media with the same old tunes and the same tricks. I don't care where they come from it's what they waste that makes the difference. And that is just my opinion, I'm pretty sure it's mine, yes it is. All I can say to them is "break a leg". They all do drugs anyway steroid junkies everyone of them I bet.

 

Similar Threads

10
A History of the Winter Olympics 1924 - 2010
by Harry Hayfield | Mar 4th, 2010
29
2010 Winter Olympics Worst Ever?
by Bar Sinister | Feb 23rd, 2010
12
6
2010 Vancouver Winter Olympics
by I think not | May 26th, 2006