The Martin "Address" to the Nation


MMMike
#1
Did anybody else watch that self-serving crap that Martin pushed out on his address to the nation? That was a complete abuse of his power, to represent this as a response to a national crisis - yeah right! This was completely self serving and completely partisan. Boooo
 
LadyC
#2
I didn't see it, but what did you expect from a pol... a non-partisan plug for the other guy?
 
MMMike
#3
As Stephen Harper correctly put it, "A prime minister should not be addressing the population on this partisan issue, but rather on the concerns and challenges with which we are confronted: the health care system, international trade, agriculture, the fiscal imbalance, safer communities, stronger families, and a cleaner environment."
 
LadyC
#4
Yeah... and Paul should do what Stevie says, as he's not out to score any points for himself.
 
bluealberta
#5
Bring on the election. I damn near run out of tissue watching Martin humiliate himself. He's sorry, it happened on the Liberal watch, he was second in command, he should have been more vigilant, but we should all wait until a federally appointed judge makes a report at some vague future date. What I did not hear was Martin saying that he would stop the group of Liberals who are going to court to try and stop the inquiry from having results. Get the Lieberals out of here now while Canada still has some vestige of self respect left on the world stage. All Martin did tonight was have the first campaign speech, and all three other leaders were much, much better. Adios, Paul, either you were a component of scandal, or you were incompetent if you actually did not know anything. Either way, you lose, pal. Don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out!
 
mrmom2
#6
Mr Dithers If the shoe fits
 
Dexter Sinister
No Party Affiliation
#7
Quote:

Adios, Paul, either you were a component of scandal, or you were incompetent if you actually did not know anything.

While I'd agree with the general sentiments expressed by posters in here so far, that statement needs correction. The Sponsorship Program was Chretien's baby and was run by friends of his, which Martin definitely was not, with oversight from the PMO. Knowing how official Ottawa operates and given the mutual suspicion between Chretien and Martin, it's at least credible that Martin, even as Finance Minister, could have been kept entirely out of the loop if that's how the PM wanted it. And he probably did. Did you catch his appearance at the Gomery inquiry? He thinks he saved the country and expects full credit for it. Arrogant little twit...

That doesn't excuse anything, of course, but nothing critical really hinges on it anyway, it's the old Liberal arrogance that's brought them down, as it has before. In fact that's what's brought them down every time they've lost an election in the last 50 years.
 
dukee
#8
Paul Martin is much stupider than I had given him credit for.

If he believes that he is going to stem Liberal bloodflow go to tell the nation that
a) the Liberals are indeed corrupt to the core
b) he is sorry for it
c) the best course of action is to allow them to maintain their grip on power for the rest of the year
then, this election will be much more enjoyable for the Conservatives than I would have imagined.

By making a promise that he will call an election, he has made an election imminent. Now, whether it happens 2 months from now or 8 months from now, the Canadian people are going to have to brace for one.

They might as well get it over with at the end of June.

And, in giving his speech on national television, he also opened the door for all THREE opposition leaders to pound the Liberals in their rebuttals. In using a rare Prime Minister's national address to discuss purely political manners, he reeked of desperation.

June 27 is going to come very quickly for him.
 
Reverend Blair
#9
Holy bat sh*t, I thought I was partisan. You guys are like rabid skunks.

Martin tried a Hail Mary pass tonight. It just might work too...the man on the street reaction on TV has been mixed. We'll know next week when the polls come out.

There will still be an election on June 27. The only thing that change that is if Martin makes concessions to Layton on the corporate tax cuts in the budget. There is no sign that's going to happen. Even if Martin makes the concessions it will be very tight as to whether the NDP have the seats to hold things together.

Anyway, Martin did a good job in his first election speech in almost a year. He looked haggard and contrite. He listed everything that he did in regard to sponsorship, including shutting down the program. He played to all of the polls, which indicate that Canadians want to wait for an election.

Harper came off as being arrogant and unstatesman-like to anybody who is worried about him. He spun out the same old lines. He also, in the little bit of policy he mentioned, seemed to back away from Kyoto again. He flip-flopped before when he said he would honour the agreement, but tonight he mentioned every kind of pollution except greenhouse gas.

Harper looked like he was making an election speech to a partisan crowd in downtown Calgary, not to an Ontario audience that's nervous about him.

Duceppe played to his Quebec separatists. That's good. That's his job.

Layton reiterated his earlier budget offer and said he'd like to wait on Gomery. That's important because because his vote against the budget (which Harper keeps bringing up to try to avoid any backlash for bringing the government down landing on the Conservatives) is based on issues, not scandal. It matches the message that the NDP want government to be effective.

Layton also played very much to the Ontario audience, where the seats are.

Who's going to benefit? We'll see. Harper is going to have to get on an Ontario message if he wants to win seats though. Right now the only bet I'd take would be 100 to 1 for Duceppe becoming the next PM...everything else is too screwed up to call.
 
East Coaster
#10
Let the conservative machine reign down on this country in a furry of rights.

Martin, nice try, you are still a tool. This government really gets to me. As martin said, they should be governing but there are not because of the fact that they got caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

I say get them out. And it will be nice to campaing in nice warm weather instead of November.
 
Reverend Blair
#11
I dunno...our last couple of Mays and Junes have been muddy and ugly. I think I'd prefer a bright and sunny fall. Putting signs up once the ground freezes kind of sucks though.

I'm going to move this thread over to elections where it belongs. We are talking about four election speeches, after all.
 
East Coaster
#12
I enjoyed campaining in June last year. What I would like to see is set election dates (ala USA). This would not give the governing party (if they have a mojority) to call whenever they want.

And, Rev. You NDP???
 
no1important
#13
I am pissed off I missed this. I hope it gets re broadcast again tonight sometime on Newsworld. Usually I do not miss these things.

From what I read at CTV it sounds like Jack Layton had the only sensible response to Martin. He will help pass budget if a few changes are made. That seems reasonable as does a January 2006 election. That seems reasonable as people really do not want an election now.

Plus then we will know 100% what Gomery has to say and we can fairly judge Martin then. I know Martin may of known about scandal but I think Chretien was the main player and Martin was fired from Cabinet, so I am not sure what his involvment really is. So for me personally I would like all the facts before I vote. Even though I will vote NDP reguardless, a person should not be "convicted" before the facts are all out. I want to see full report before I judge.

Personally I don't as we are having a provincial one in about 4 weeks and I can't take much more hot air.

Dam it I should of set vcr..............
 
Reverend Blair
#14
Quote:

And, Rev. You NDP???

Oh, a little.

Quote:

What I would like to see is set election dates (ala USA). This would not give the governing party (if they have a mojority) to call whenever they want.

The possible problem with set election dates is that you can end up with US-style never-ending elections. I wouldn't mind them under a system of proportional representation as long as there was no funding allowed by anybody but eleigible voters, but set dates in our current system would be a disaster.
 
Reverend Blair
#15
You didn't miss much, No1. The only real news was Martin's offer of calling an election within 30 days of Gomery's final report.

I was surprised that Harper didn't have a better speech. He needs some different handlers. They keep playing to his core supporters, which is a waste of time...they already have those votes.

That's what made Layton's speech so strong. His offer to support the government if they change the budget keeps him on message for governance. When it's taken in the context of giving the money to the provinces it plays well in Ontario without alienating anybody else.

If the Liberals take his offer (doubtful) he looks like a saviour. If they don't take it, or if there's an election anyway, he can pick up seats.
 
Scape
#16
Martin just said general election 30 days after Gomery inquiry. Sounds fair. The idea of having 2 elections in one year is getting us nowhere. The inquiry will be over by August and the report will be out in December. This means a spring election in 2006. I don't want to see the inquiry start from scratch and waste millions more on an election we don't need. I would eat my balot but it is illegal to eat your ballot in a federal election or by-election. Six members of the Edible Ballot Society, a protest group, were charged after the 2000 election under paragraph 167(2)(a) of the Canada Elections Act for wilfully destroying a ballot; two were found not guilty for lack of evidence, and charges against the other four were stayed.

Frankly I am sick of Liberal corruption and this is a crisis of the liberal party brought on by the arrogance of Jean, not Paul. Just like the PC party split with reform after Brian so too the Liberal have two camps as well.

If we end up with an election now we will have Harper in power with the Bloc as the opposition. Might as well lower the flag and put up the stars and stripes and give Quebec to the separatists. Goodbye Canada! Harpers plan for Canadian unity will be a tough love approach to Quebec that will play into the hands of the separatists. Laton doesn't have the electoral gravitas to the voting public and no one in the NDP will so a NDP government is a fairy tale. The liberals may very well be corrupt bastards but they are Canadian corrupt bastards, it's not much of a choice but it really is the only one we have.
 
missile
Conservative
#17
I know and understand how the Bloc has the power it does,but why is a regional separatist group allowed to be ann official opposition in our government? Their motives are only pursuing their separatist agenda and not on the betterment of our country.
 
MMMike
#18
Quote:

Martin just said general election 30 days after Gomery inquiry. Sounds fair. The idea of having 2 elections in one year is getting us nowhere. The inquiry will be over by August and the report will be out in December.

Chretien & his Liberal friends are still trying to shut down the inquiry. A few of the people charged in this scandal are going to trial in June or July, and they are expected to try and shut down Gomery to avoid "tainting" the jury pool. So there is no certainty that Gomery will finish in August, and who knows how long the report will take.

Can't you make up your own mind about what went on? The testimony is rehashed every day on the news and radio, and internet. You can read the testimony online. Come to your own conclusions.

If Martin was so concerned about the voters having all the facts before an election, why did he shut down the Public Accounts Committee investigation into the sponsorship scandal just before going to the polls last spring??
 
MMMike
#19
Quote:

If we end up with an election now we will have Harper in power with the Bloc as the opposition. Might as well lower the flag and put up the stars and stripes and give Quebec to the separatists. Goodbye Canada! Harpers plan for Canadian unity will be a tough love approach to Quebec that will play into the hands of the separatists.

With this scandal the Liberals have done more for Quebec seperatists than anything in a generation. Yeah, Martin will still try and paint the Liberals as the country's last hope, but that hand has been overplayed. The Bloc will take all but a handfull of seats in Quebec, if the election is held this spring or next year.
 
DasFX
#20
I think the PM should be able to address the Canadian people anytime he wants. He is the leader of the country, what is wrong with speaking with the nation?

I like what he said. He apologized, took some of the blame, vowed to fix things, and promised to hold an election once the final report is release.

With that being said the address by no means exonerated him from his role in the scandal.

I do not think a snap election will solve matters. How will a Conservative minority government and a possible Bloq opposition help the country?

Let's just wait till Jan or Feb 2006, things can't get worse.
 
no1important
#21
Quote:

Can't you make up your own mind about what went on? The testimony is rehashed every day on the news and radio, and internet. You can read the testimony online. Come to your own conclusions.

Yes but it still is really second hand. I also am wise enough to know how the press and talk show radio put thier own "slants" on it, to make is more sensational than it may or may not be.

I for one just want to see the final report first, instead of getting bits and pieces.

Everyone blames Martin(yes the leader is responsible) but there is no real hard evidence it was him, just the party and Chretien. You must remember Martin and Chretien hate each other. I am not saying Martin is totally innocent but I want to see the report first. It is just fair and the right thing to do, instead of how so many people are jumping on the band wagon to crucify him. He apologized and to me seemed sincere.

I do not vote Liberal but Martin should be able to stay in power until the full final report comes out in December. To me, that is not to much to ask. He said there will call an election (providing Harper does not succeed with a non confidence motion) 30 days after report comes out. After all we are a democratic country.
 
Reverend Blair
#22
Quote:

This means a spring election in 2006.

It would put the election on the first Monday of February, most likely. It's not going to happen though. The Conservatives won't wait.

Quote:

Frankly I am sick of Liberal corruption and this is a crisis of the liberal party brought on by the arrogance of Jean, not Paul. Just like the PC party split with reform after Brian so too the Liberal have two camps as well.

The problem is that the camps are all equally corrupt. How are we supposed to deal with that? Nobody likely to get elected is going to change the system because it benefits them.

Quote:

If we end up with an election now we will have Harper in power with the Bloc as the opposition.

I wouldn't bet on that after last night and with the coming Martin blitz, Scape. A lot of people are still nervous about Harper and he's still playing to Alberta instead of Ontario.

I doubt the Liberals will drop much lower in the polls than they already are, and most of that support is in seat-rich Ontario.

I wonder what a Liberal/Conservative tie would bring us?

Quote:

Might as well lower the flag and put up the stars and stripes and give Quebec to the separatists. Goodbye Canada!

I don't see a lot of difference between Harper and Martin on this front. Both are big fans of deep integration. Both favour their corporate cronies over the rest of us.

Quote:

Harpers plan for Canadian unity will be a tough love approach to Quebec that will play into the hands of the separatists.

I think you're giving him too much credit. He's more likely to revert to building a firewall around Alberta, then send out corporate crews to rape and pillage the other provinces.

Quote:

Laton doesn't have the electoral gravitas to the voting public and no one in the NDP will so a NDP government is a fairy tale.

There's still that balance of power thing though. I also think that Layton is doing a good job of looking like the only one that wants things to work.

Quote:

The liberals may very well be corrupt bastards but they are Canadian corrupt bastards, it's not much of a choice but it really is the only one we have.

What time do the bars open? I think we all deserve a stiff drink.
 
no1important
#23
Quote:

I wonder what a Liberal/Conservative tie would bring us?

Liberals would stay in power, at least at the start. If they were tied after the election. But who knows for how long and it would depend if the NDP held the balance.

Quote:

What time do the bars open? I think we all deserve a stiff drink.

Some here open around 9:30 and some 10 am. Beer stores open at 9 but I am well stocked.
 
MMMike
#24
Quote:

Yes but it still is really second hand. I also am wise enough to know how the press and talk show radio put thier own "slants" on it, to make is more sensational than it may or may not be.

I for one just want to see the final report first, instead of getting bits and pieces.

Everyone blames Martin(yes the leader is responsible) but there is no real hard evidence it was him, just the party and Chretien. You must remember Martin and Chretien hate each other. I am not saying Martin is totally innocent but I want to see the report first. It is just fair and the right thing to do, instead of how so many people are jumping on the band wagon to crucify him. He apologized and to me seemed sincere.

You can read the actual testimony on the Gomery Commission website - first hand, no media filter. The entire Liberal party has been tainted by this scandal. They need to be out of power for a while. They need a good housecleaning, and come back with some fresh faces and actual ideas about how to run the country. Then even I would take another look at them.

By far the most likely outcome of the next election is a Conservative minority government. People will see Harper is not scary, no hidden agenda - with policies only marginally different from Martins.
 
MMMike
#25
Quote:

I am pissed off I missed this. I hope it gets re broadcast again tonight sometime on Newsworld. Usually I do not miss these things.

The timing of this thing was terrible. It's obvious he's targetting Ontarians, and as usual, to hell with the west.
 
Reverend Blair
#26
There are millions of pages of documents that go along with that testimony, MMMike. Making a decision based solely on the testimony without waiting for Gomery's final report is a fools game. There is even a chance, albeit a slim one, that his report would have an ensuing election fought on instituting real reforms to deal with corruption.

The Conservatives don't have any fresh ideas either. They'll integrate with US quicker than Martin. That's the core of their platform. Martin's is that he'll integrate slowly. All that really separates the two are social issues and Canadians like the Liberals' social policies better.

Sponsorship may encourage some to hold their noses and vote Conservative, but if this thing was as big as it's being painted or people considered the Conservatives a viable option, the Liberals would be fourth in polls and looking at getting only two seats. That ain't happening.
 
DasFX
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by MMMike

The timing of this thing was terrible. It's obvious he's targetting Ontarians, and as usual, to hell with the west.

Canadians favourite thing to do is complain! What would have been a better time? Say he put it on at 10PM EDT, how is that better? Sure BC and Alberta can watch in the evening, but what about Newfoundland and Atlantic Canada where people would be in bed at around 11 and 11:30PM?

It is unfortunate that Sir Sanford Fleming came up with this whole time zone thing and it is unfortunate that Canada is so big that we 6 times zones. The thing was taped anyway; it isn't like we watched it live in Ontario? I'm sure the speeches were replayed again later in the evening in the West.

Do you think Vlad Putin has to hear these complaints in Russia? They have 11 times zones; can you imagine if the Western Canadians lived in Siberia?
 
no1important
#28
well at 4 pm pdt was too early. 5:30 pdt would of been better(still early here but we all need to compromise), yes that is late in NFLD but still just 10 pm there. 8:30 in Montreal so that would of been a better compromise for the whole country. Most people I know do not get off work until 4 or 5. Its not as if they all would be driving home as fast as they could to watch it anyways..........
 
DasFX
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by no1important

well at 4 pm pdt was too early. 5:30 pdt would of been better(still early here but we all need to compromise), yes that is late in NFLD but still just 10 pm there. 8:30 in Montreal so that would of been a better compromise for the whole country. Most people I know do not get off work until 4 or 5. Its not as if they all would be driving home as fast as they could to watch it anyways..........

Honestly, it wasn’t Paul Martin who decided to go at 7 EDT (4 PDT), it was the networks. Thursday is a big night for Canadians to watch their American TV so having it interrupted by the Canadian Prime Minister wasn't even an option (for Ontario and Québec).

Like I said it was taped, watching it at 4 PDT or 5:30 PDT or 8 PDT wouldn't have made a difference so what is the big deal? The information didn't change. As for the opposition speeches, they simply read a script. I could have watched the thing at 3AM; I would have gotten the same info out of it.
 
Reverend Blair
#30
Quote:

Do you think Vlad Putin has to hear these complaints in Russia? They have 11 times zones; can you imagine if the Western Canadians lived in Siberia?

Have you ever been to Winnipeg in January? :P

Re: the whole time thing...

It was originally slated for 7:45 edt. The TV guys bumped it up by 45 minutes. That would be CTV and Global, unless you believe that George Strombouloupolis has more pull at the CBC than Peter Mansbridge.