Quebec shouldn't separate from Canada


EagleSmack
#91
Quote: Originally Posted by Reverend Blair

Texas isn't that different, EagleSmack. Maybe you should have used it as an example?

Texans do fly the Texas flag. But guess what, here in Massachusetts my neighbor flies the Mass Flag too! But not in the way that you put it. You would also never hear of a Texan saying that he Texan over American. I was in the Marines with many Texans and never heard that once.

But hey... if it helps your argument... who cares about truth! lol


From listening to s_lone, it seems like the Quebec flag flies in more prominent places AND he says that the Canadian Flag at time cannot be seen. THAT is a big rift. I am surprised it is not addressed by Canadians.
 
Reverend Blair
#92
Quote:

You would also never hear of a Texan saying that he Texan over American. I was in the Marines with many Texans and never heard that once.

I've heard Texans say that very thing, that's why I used it as an example. I've also heard people from your deep south say similar things...like they've never accepted losing the Civil War. Politically the US is presently more divided than Canada.
 
EagleSmack
#93
Quote: Originally Posted by Reverend Blair

Quote:

You would also never hear of a Texan saying that he Texan over American. I was in the Marines with many Texans and never heard that once.

I've heard Texans say that very thing, that's why I used it as an example. I've also heard people from your deep south say similar things...like they've never accepted losing the Civil War. Politically the US is presently more divided than Canada.


At one time I would have agreed with you but after reading the posts of some Canadians about the issue on separatism and Quebec I have learned that things are much more divided than some people on this board try to portray.

I see and understand your reasoning to deflect this to a USA thing. The truth can hurt especially coming from your fellow countrymen. But after reading what they are saying "countrymen" maybe to strong and they would object.

I am sure that if you attend a Civil War Re-enactment you will find some of those folks dressed in Gray that speak like that.

But wow... a whole Province trying to separate and coming close to doing so! And now there is talk about them trying to pass another one!

That is serious business. Nothing like that going on down here.
 
EagleSmack
#94
Quote: Originally Posted by EagleSmack

Quote: Originally Posted by jackd

Eagle:
A very large portion of Quebecers will identify themselfs first as being a "Quebecois", then if necessary or useful, as a Canadian.
I would have a hard time right now to find a Canadian flag flying in Quebec(except on some official buildings) but I see Quebec flag all the time. Even on our Parliament Building in Quebec, The Quebec flag flies high while the Canadian flag is barely visible if it even exists.. This, even with a Federalist provincial government.
I know (for having lived there) Floridians would never say they are "Floridians"

So if they are in the minority... why does the Quebec flag fly in more prominent places than the Canadian flag?

It sounds like it is really divided up there... at least in Quebec. How big is that Province in relation to the others?


As I was saying... before someone tried to make it a USA thing. <shaking head>

Anybody have an answer on this?
 
Reverend Blair
#95
I was just trying to put it in terms you might have an outside chance of understanding, Eaglesmack. Apparently I was wasting my time.
 
EagleSmack
#96
Quote: Originally Posted by Reverend Blair

I was just trying to put it in terms you might have an outside chance of understanding, Eaglesmack. Apparently I was wasting my time.

.... and off topic.

As I said, Texans are prevalent in the Marines as are a lot of Southerners. They were Americans first.
 
jackd
#97
Eagle:
Some answers to your earlier questions:
The Province of Quebec represents 15.5% of the Canadian total area. Quebec is (in sq.mi) larger than Texas.
Quebec Population: 7,6million or 24% of the total canadian population.
Re Flag: You need to understand that the flag thing in Canada (and in Quebec) is no where near what is seen south of the border.
It is not uncommon to see big flags flying on every second house in the U.S, with all the ceremonial it requires (light the flag at nigh, do not leave a flag in the rain, the flag should never touch the ground, do not throw an old flag in the garbage, and so on with the pages after pages of flag etiquette.........no so in Canada.
 
Reverend Blair
#98
No, the Texans in the Marines are. If you poll the Quebecois in the Canadian Forces you'll get much the same reaction.
 
s_lone
#99
When Jean Chrétien (former prime minister) decided not to join the US on the war in Irak, Quebecers suddenly felt a lot more Canadian... Jackd said it, most Quebecers define themselves first as Quebecois and then, depending on the context, if it suits them or not, as Canadian... It would be fair to say that we are kind of opportunists... A bit flip-floppy too...

Reverend Blair, If I was living anywhere else in Canada, I would most likely vote for the NPD. I often wonder what would happen if Quebecers decided to massively vote for the NPD. It would really change everything in Canadian politics... would be quite interesting...The Bloc gained impressive support because of the sponsership scandal... They were kind of lucky on this one.
 
S-Ranger
#100
Quote: Originally Posted by CrEsPo

Quote: Originally Posted by Jay

French is forced upon you?

I'm from Ontario and of French desent, but raised an Anglo. I could only wish someone would force French on me so I could learn the language.

I'm also from Ontario and French is manditory from grade 1 through 9. If I remember correctly, even in Junior Kinegarden and Senior Kinegarden they "taught" you French.

Remember correctly? I'm 40 and it was only taught from gade 7 up to grade 9 when it became an optional course in grade 10. Maybe 11, I can't remember either, I slept through most French clases along with everyone else. Are you sure you're from Ontario? If I can remember it starting in grade 7 then anyone much younger whenever it apparently started in Junion Kindergarten, would remember.

But then again; Ontario is a very big place. With "Canada" listed as a location and the below about "resources," the usual "Canadian" view of "the country" ... that resources mean anything when Southern Ontario and Southwest Quebec have over half of the population/markets of the Canadas and generate up to 70% of federal revenues; due to knowledge-based, research, new developmen, high-value services and speciality manufacturing; part of the North American (Northeastern) manufacturing and knowledge-based heratland, not Outer "Canada" with its supply, farmets, fishers, lumberjacks, miners in very sparse markets pawning off raw commodities, and jobs/economies/tax bases in the process.

Quote: Originally Posted by CrEsPo

I think if Quebec separated it would be bad for them. They definately won't have good relations with Canada, there goes one trading partner

Southern Ontario and Southwest Quebec, the Windsor-Quebec City corridor, are the only trading partners in the Canadas that show up on any radar scope that matters in North America. The rest of the Ontarios and Quebecs can be dumped at any time, and are going to be along with the rest of the Outer Canadas, so that we can keep 100% of our taxes for the first time ever and the rest can pay their real debts and bills for the first time ever. And try to deal with unemployment insurance, let alone paying for your own law enforcement from top to bottom, bottom to top, and everything else.

And there goes tens of billions of dollars in expenses for this region, for Toronto alone, in exchange for paying less for supply along with the U.S. -- and actually being able to build our infrastructure up, repair it first after over a decade of neglect due to insane deals like Newfoundland&Labrador and Nova Scotia just got, over Alberta, which pays over a billion dollars less in taxes, never to be seen again, the ones that matter though they can't get their numbers straight, than the City of Toronto proper, not GTA/greater Toronto area, just one city hall of over 400 in the Ontarios, pays out in taxes that are never seen again; minus the $1.4 billion a year that disappears into the Ontario government never to be seen again, along with the Ontario and confederate feds downloading their own bills and expenses onto Toronto city hall and just about every city hall in Southern Ontario.

Once "Quebec" and "Onario" are properly structured, dumping Outer Canada including most of the Ontarios and Quebecs, we'll be the usual. The largest trading partners in the Canadas and the largest trading partners by far with the U.S. -- in commerce not tonnage or bulk of natural resources being handed away for no apparent reason.

Quote: Originally Posted by CrEsPo

They would have to create a new dollar which would definately not start out as a high worth dollar. Another thing is resources; what would they trade? Quebec alone wouldn't have sufficient resources to sell to make a profit.

No, actually you'll have to create a new dollar. We can't afford to be in an economic or political union with the Outer Canadas anymore. They're totally separate countries and one fiscal policy/central bank, totally dysfunctional 'federa" systems and structures and a sngle exchange rate screws up our investors, completely different economies, socio-economics, politics, everything.

So the rest gets a central bank/currency/fiscal policy based on what it does -- exporting raw commodities and all the jobs and spin-off jobs and new markets/investment and everything else along with it, likke some third-world nothing.

And it's all you'll be, ready for lots more exploitation, without the real economies of the real Canada: which works out well for both of us. inner Canada and the U.S. Aside from keeping tens of billions more tax dollars in the Windsor-Quebec City corridor where they belong, finally repairing and building up the infrastructure we're capable of building up, while paying our own debts off for a change, only our own bills for the first time ever, to attract more and more investment, create tens of thousands more jobs and markets, well it's quite a list of benefits, we'll also pay less for supply and will have fiscal policies that actually make sense.

Yours can go up and down like ... well, like the price of raw commodities exports. And the new Republic of Quebec (quite old actually; southwest. Very southwest) won't have to worry about Mandarin, Arabic, Punjabi, etc., and we won't have to worry about French: in the new (quite old actually) Republic of Ontario -- south. Very south. Like unlless you're in the London area, Toronto area, possibly the Barrie area due to the 400, but it can wait, we'll see, Ottawa-Hull area, the 401 on south.

The rest will pay access fees to use the 401 and anything south of it. In Ontario. What Montreal decides to pull, only production, no supply, tourism if it wants Quebec City, it can pay for Autoroute 20 and its portion of the 401. How the new/old Quebec deals with its user fees/taxation to uses its area/infrastructure will be up to it.

We're going to pay farmers in specific areas up to five times the subsidies they currently get, balanced with what American farmers get, without all of the handouts the usual Outer Canadas get, probably pay for their law enforcement as well, with re-structuring so that everything we need is being grown/ranched, the best equipment in the world, they'lll be truly appreciated for the first time since the invention of cities.

But will still have their own currency so we pay less for supply and they can export and kill anything else in the Canadas for being teamed up with Southern Ontario, the most successful region by light years in the Canadas and one of the most in North Americas.

And aside from our hard-working farmers, only Southwest Quebec is capable of dealing with the economies of Southern Ontario in this "country." And it'll be made an offer it can't refuse.

Money talks. Cow and horse and sheep and yak and chicken and rooster and pig dung walk. Though we might sustain some jobs up there if we don't create a better fertilizer ourselves. And you can keep stinking up towns beyond belief, with sh*t all over the place.

Then you can all find out that your farming, forestry, minining (with the technology of others), fishery, raw commodities "industries" with no markets, no tax bases to speak of, have held you all back for the last hundred of so years. And maybe even do something about it for once, figuring out that lots of things can be done with raw commodities/marterials other than exporting them.
 
Reverend Blair
#101
Quote:

Reverend Blair, If I was living anywhere else in Canada, I would most likely vote for the NPD. I often wonder what would happen if Quebecers decided to massively vote for the NPD. It would really change everything in Canadian politics... would be quite interesting...The Bloc gained impressive support because of the sponsership scandal... They were kind of lucky on this one.

If Quebec went NDP, the NDP would likely be the Official Opposition. There has been some talk among some New Democrats (down at my level...I have no idea what the guys in charge think) of the benefits of forming an official coalition with the BQ before the next election so that the coalition can be pushed as the Official Opposition.

The "for" arguments are obvious...more recognition and influence. Those who are against the idea worry about everything from how to deal with decentralization issues to destroying the NDP in Quebec to what stance the NDP would be on separation. The big worry is backlash.

I think there was more to the BQ's success than the sponsorship scandal, s_lone. The Liberals were pushing for BMD and sucked on the environment. Martin was clearly moving towards George Bush's crotch with his mouth open. Your provincial Liberals aren't exactly popular, which has an effect. Duceppe kicked ass in the debate. his remark about not kneeling in front of your friends made Harper and Martin both look foolish...it was the closest thing to a knock-out punch there was.

The next time is going to be tougher, especially if Gomery is over. The Liberals have moved a bit on the environment and backed out of BMD and Duceppe is looking like he'll be running the PQ instead of the BQ soon. Depending how long before the next election, Duceppe could even be running Quebec.

That will likely give the Liberals a majority government next time around.
 
Jay
#102
Quote: Originally Posted by CrEsPo

Quote: Originally Posted by Jay

French is forced upon you?

I'm from Ontario and of French desent, but raised an Anglo. I could only wish someone would force French on me so I could learn the language.

I'm also from Ontario and French is manditory from grade 1 through 9. If I remember correctly, even in Junior Kinegarden and Senior Kinegarden they "taught" you French.

I think if Quebec separated it would be bad for them. They definately won't have good relations with Canada, there goes one trading partner. They would have to create a new dollar which would definately not start out as a high worth dollar. Another thing is resources; what would they trade? Quebec alone wouldn't have sufficient resources to sell to make a profit.

Sometimes we inadvertently show our age, I guess. But what about the "if I remember correctly" part? It couldn't have been that long ago...
 
EagleSmack
#103
Quote: Originally Posted by jackd

Eagle:
Some answers to your earlier questions:
The Province of Quebec represents 15.5% of the Canadian total area. Quebec is (in sq.mi) larger than Texas.
Quebec Population: 7,6million or 24% of the total canadian population.
Re Flag: You need to understand that the flag thing in Canada (and in Quebec) is no where near what is seen south of the border.
It is not uncommon to see big flags flying on every second house in the U.S, with all the ceremonial it requires (light the flag at nigh, do not leave a flag in the rain, the flag should never touch the ground, do not throw an old flag in the garbage, and so on with the pages after pages of flag etiquette.........no so in Canada.

Yes JackD we do have a lot of flag rules. Just like you say "Not at night w/o being lit". I keep my flag out and my neighbor takes his in at night. He gives me a hard time from time to time. So I said

"Hey how about I put a Canadian Flag out... How would you like that!"

I'M KIDDING! Just a little Friday humor.

One big thing is we fly the flag at Half-Mast a lot. Folks get upset because only a President or a Congressman are honored by that in the event of their death. I say "Screw That". If an important person in the community passes on or a tragic event happens, we should (and do) fly the flag at half-mast.

But that makes sense when you say it is not that big of a deal as it is here.

Thanks.
 
Jay
#104
We haven’t been flying our flag for very long, we recently flew the Union Jack.

So its not the same up here with our flag. It doesn't carry the weight that many other more mature nations flags do.

Personally I have allot of respect for the Old Glory. You won't find too many Canadians saying that though.
 
EagleSmack
#105
But you folks have a cool flag and a really cool anthem.

The Canadian National Anthem is an Anthem that everyone can sing too!

"O' Canada! Our Home and Native Land!"

We have a Golf Tounament every other year so we go all out with prizes and things to make it exciting. We have a professional singer come in and sing the National Anthem, Canadian National Anthem, and the Irish Anthem.

And he sings it in French too!

And guess what... there is not one Canadian in the tournament. We just have it sung.
 
Reverend Blair
#106
We've used the Maple Leaf since I was two, Jay. Before that we used the Canadian Ensign. We are part of the Commonwealth though, so the Union Jack is part of our heritage as a nation.
 
Jay
#107
"O' Canada! Our Home and Native Land!"

I sometimes tear up a bit when we sing it. It is the best anthem out there I think.
 
EagleSmack
#108
I remember visiting my cousins up in New Foundland and seeing my first Canadian flag. I was just a little kid, right before 1st Grade.

I was like

"Hey... why do they have that flag up there?"

"Because we're in Canada and their flag is different"

"Ohhh... Hey there is another!"

Oh Canada is a cool anthem

I like the beginning of the French Anthem...
 
Jay
#109
"I like the beginning of the French Anthem..."


My Grandfather used to tell me that Oh Canada was way better in French, they didn’t teach me to speak the language though, and so I couldn't agree or disagree.

Wasn't it written if French originally? (I will look on Google later)
 
S-Ranger
#110
Quote: Originally Posted by EagleSmack

You would also never hear of a Texan saying that he Texan over American. I was in the Marines with many Texans and never heard that once.

Quote: Originally Posted by Reverend Blair

I've heard Texans say that very thing, that's why I used it as an example. I've also heard people from your deep south say similar things...like they've never accepted losing the Civil War. Politically the US is presently more divided than Canada.

Quote: Originally Posted by EagleSmack

At one time I would have agreed with you but after reading the posts of some Canadians about the issue on separatism and Quebec I have learned that things are much more divided than some people on this board try to portray.

Please, EagleSnack. You're on a web chat board not sitting in the House of Commons of Canada or Quebec or any other provincial legislature or even quoting real news or tabloid news and most Americans don't know the difference around "Canadian news."

There's a "big important" Republic of Alberta web site too! Full of propaganda (disinformation, misinformation, outright lies, not that it matters around some web site). You kinda need a provincial government, at minimum, that will vote to throw a worthless referendum for no apparent reason and Alberta's isn't interested and has made it quite clear to avoid screwing up investment like Quebec has. But you'd never know it if you could find the "Republic of Alberta" web site. Any realities that go against the conclusions of the one person who runs the site, is censored out as being "negative."

Like, "You have no land rights so how do you intend to claim land you don't own?" Irrelevant, negative, and negative input will not forward "the cause."

It could be run by a computer program as some marketing study to see how much idiocy people will swallow.

Anyone can set up a web site and/or chat board. So what? When I looked up this "Republic of Alberta" site on Google I found American chat boards and who knows who from where on them, swallowing it all, as though the Alberta government ran the site or something, when ONE GUY does. But they take it serously as though something that means something is behind the site. Ignorance is bliss and particularly when looking around for "something worse" than the U.S. around "political divisions" that amount to comparing World War II to Panama.

Who's been telling you that there are no economic and political divisions in the Canadas? I won't even call it "Canada" because it's BS. It's singular and there's nothing singular about Toronto let alone the Canadas.

But web chat boards aren't the best place to get "information" from. What's going on the the Canadas, on the surface, is nothing unusual. What's happend to the U.S. under the Dubya admin is unprecedented in its modern history. Sort of. The Olkahoma City bombing was the worst terrorist attack in U.S. history until 9/11. But Oklahoma was carried out by white, American, christian-raised males. It's a bit difficult to do racial profiling around that in the U.S. And nothing like it has ever happened in the Canadas. There are lots of examples but never has any president in American history (according to American political historians) created so much anti-Americanism (which has been researched and defined by the Pentagon but there's no need around the Canadas; it has nothing to do with the American people, just the president and maybe at best, one or two high-ranking officials in the Exec Branch, like Rumsfeld, Rice, it depends on the issue, but Americans get very personal around others having opinions about "their" president because it's much like the Queen of England, PM of the U.K. wrapped up into one. We don't "revere politicians for the most part. We see them as the snakes they are, do the same around all other politicians, alleged leaders, whatever, the Queen of nothing but lots of worthless expenses, and go ahead and chew out any/all Canadian politicians. If you have the facts straight, you'll be agreed with. If not you won't be but it's nothng personal. They're politicians, not this bizarre almost Theocracy the U.S. has, with more pomp and circmstance around a presidential inauguration than a new monarch of Britain.

And "Canada" is one of the most secular countries on the planet. I'd never heard any Canadian politician even say "god" until the bizarre cross between Jimmy Swaggart and the NDP came to the Ontario Conservative Party convention and was actually allowed to speak and ended with the obligatory around the U.S., "God Bless Canada."

First time I ever heard any "Canadian" politician say it and Harper missed his calling as a christian evangelical cub scout leader in Southern Alabama. But he'd have to be an ultra-socialist somehow without having a clue because he can't add.

No political divides in the Canadas? Toronto has 5.1 million people and 1/4 of the total GDP of the Canadas among many other things.

No state in the U.S. has 25% of the GDP. California has about 15%. Ontario has over 40%, Quebec has over 20%, it's only due to the knowledge-based economies in Southern Ontario (plural, always, Southern Ontarios, if I screw up on pluralism, like Toronto instead of the Torontos or one house; you find me one house in North America where everyone agrees on absolutely every single issue and when presses to find their limites/boundaries around each issue, end up with the exact same boundaries and you'lll have found the most worthless, boring household anywhere. There'd be no need to speak. Why bother when you already know that everyone in the household is going to agree? No need to ask about a new haircut/do, clothes, nothing, because everyone agrees about absolutely everything and to the exact same limits around everything. I guarantee I could get them into a good argument by finding out where their limits are on what they think they agree on -- let alone a whole city, let alone what? Political lines that can't even be seen? Farmer Joe's wheat farm is backed onto Farmer Jeb's rye farm and a state or provincial line happens to be in the fields somewhere and they're going to give a crap about that?

Maybe, but probably not because of some imaginary line. Lots of neighbors don't get along in the same building. But there's some united "USA" thing and some united "Canada" thing that amount to what in real life? Marketing. Political and commercial, every word that comes out of everyone's mouth, everything everyone sees, and particularly religious marketing in the U.S. There's real separation of Church from State here though hicks from out west are trying to change that. And will fail.

There's a thing called the Windsor-Quebec City corridor. If you know where Detroit is, you know where Winsdor is; at the busiest border crossing point in the world across the Detroit River, with over 40% of all trade (in commerce not tonnages of $10/ton of whatever commodities from the Outer Canadas), outside the Windsor-Quebec City corridor and it's only one crossing point into/out of the industrial hearland of North America.

5.1 million people is the municipal area of Toronto, which includes a bunch of farms and whatnot. It means nothing other than the usual around censuses. The feds make up municipal areas for each city based on whatever, the equivalent of municipal areas of the U.S. in the Canadas but only 2.5 or so million people live in the City of Toronto proper. The six cities that used to make up Metropolitan Toronto but were forced to amalgamate by the Ontario feds (who park their asses on prime real estate in downtown Toronto, clogging up and wearing out our infrastruture and paying less than nothing into it as with the millions of other commuters into this city) and there are political and economic divides and downright hatred of this thing the Ontario feds created, it's what they act like, they're worse than the confederate feds, so it's what this city calls them, and they won't be here for long, but that's another book.

Merged up six cities into one city hall for easier tax pillaging in exchange for 6 times less representation. Now 2.5 million people or so, the residents of the City of Toronto, isn't a lot of people. The usual population of the city is over 5 million due to commuters who live in this new (199 "Greater Toronto Area" thing, and I'm not speaking for 'all of the City of Toronto', just the mayor and everyone who means anything in this city -- we hate commuters.

We hate the Toronto area (outside the real Toronto city limits, off into Disneylands with more money than the richest anything in the country has to spend for some strange reason, which is part of the reason why we hate them), let alone Ontario, let alone the Canadas.

But that's intentional and is done by the Ontario feds with mssssive tax pillaging of the City of Toronto and now other areas of this "Greater Toronto" thing, and making their city halls pay money to Toronto city hall to keep us all bitching with each other and hating each other ...which gives the Ontario and confederate feds a free ride. We should be bitching at both of them over the tax pillaging but that's the whole idea. And they do it all over the Ontarios do keep municipal governments (and people) bitching at each other instead of the real cause of the problem -- 95% tax pillaging on top of the provincial and confederate feds downloading their own expenses onto us, so they can keep out of the bickering/wars and hand our taxes out to the rest of the Canadas (the Outer Canadas, which includes most of Ontario) to buy votes.

Others claim the same but others don't have the economies or industries or markets or anything else to even be capable of funding the City of Toronto let alone Southwest Quebec, Southern Ontario or the rest, what Southern Ontario and Southwest Quebec pay for; the debts and bills and handouts of everything outside the Windsor-Quebec City corridor and it is absolutely impossible, economically, for the third-"largest" economy, Alberta, with about 1/4 of the GDP of the Ontarios, to do much of anything but sometimes pay its own bills. But it doesn't have its own law enforcement. Ontario and Quebec are the only jurisdictions in the country with their own law enforcement from top to bottom, bottom to top. Everything else uses "federal-provincial/territorial" RCMP law enforcement, which has to change names.

There's the "FBI" end of the RCMP, the "SS" end, bodyguards for politicians and foreign dignitaries, national intelligence and truly federal and then there are "federal-state" (provincial/territorial) law enforcement, from general purpose traffic cops, marked cars with R.C.M.P. on the them, I'd never seen one until I moved to Vancouver a few years back (and left with an exodus over unemployment; but my contract was up) and had no clue what it was. I thought the Queen must have been in town or something. Marked cars with lights and uniformed cops in the with R.C.M.P. on the side? "What the hell was that? is the Queen in town or something?" My brother had moved there a couple of years earlier, had gotten used to also not going through, "Damn, I forgot to exchange my curency." Into American. Vancouver is owned by the U.S. It's quite unlike Toronto in all ways: particularly it's ultra-socialist Communism.

My brother's girlfriend got pregnant in San Francisco so they headed to Vancouver to have the baby "for free" and were told by all kinds of bums traveling around the world on welfare that Vancouver was the welfare haven of the world and if they wanted a free ride, that's where to go. My brother used to work and used to be conservative. Now he's an NDP welfare bum who hasn't worked (over the table) in 7 years, has 2 kids, and gets everything handed to him on a silver platter. And B.C. is back on "equalization" welfare handouts from Southern Ontario taxpayers and I've tried to turn my brother in, they've left the country to go on vacations at B.C. welfare's expense and you're not allowed to leave the jurisdiction without reporting it to your worker and he's also worked over the table and not reported income, got credit cards somehow, ran them up to the limit and didn't report that income, it's all quite easy to trace but they don't care in Vancouver.

When you're the welfare haven of the world, the one of the most ultra-socialist jusisdictions on the planet, you don't care about things like that. They end up with a budget deficit due to their disgusting irresponsibility and it comes out of my taxes to pay for the budget deficit.

Alberta isn't much better, nothing is much better other than the cash cow, golden goose of the country--Toronto. And company now, being pillaged to death of taxes.

And you may have noticed that most "Canadians" think that "natural resources" are some ticket to wealth, heaven and endless bliss. And may even have noticed "Canadians" who can't figure out why, with all of the resources and "fewer people to feed" why the Canadas doesn't do better than the U.S., which has "more people to feed."

It's the ultimate in mental retardation. With more markets you make more sales and don't have to export either. More mouths to feed means higher profits for farmers. But to add to the mental retardation, just one example, about the most insane around; Alberta has the largest cattle industry in the Canadas and has all of 3 million people spread across over 255+ thousand miles of land.

3 million people, about the population of the City of Toronto (residents, not the real population), which is maybe 40 square miles. We have our own cows and are farily far south compared to the rest of the Canadas, like 14 states are or have land north of Southern Ontario, including California. The only thing that can't be grown here wthout greenhouses or whatever, are citrus fruits. And it costs less to import pineapples, organges, mangos, bananas from Banana Republics anyway; and doing another part around NAFTA, from FLA and CA, Hawaii. And Mexico and as long as it's in the Western Hemisphere and we're trying to get their economies going, from Chile or wherever, even around stuff we can grow ourselves, and do, they get in as competition for grapes and melons and peppers and tomatos and so on. We have sheep, we don't need imports from Alberta.

And we have these things called meat (food period) processing/packing plants and with the largest cattle industry in the Canadas and no population to speak of, which means exports, Alberta plum forgot to get the infrastructure/human capital/private investment lined up for meat processing/packing plants.

It exported live cattle (and jobs and taxes) on the hoof to American plants, then RE-IMPORTED, which is called selling low and buying high, along with handing jobs/spin-off jobs/markets/provincial taxes away for no apparent reason.

And then Alberta created a cow with BSE/mad cow disease. It's not a naturally occurring disease. Something broke federal laws and if that cow had come from the Ontarios, well a combination CIA/CSIS (Canadian equivalent) team would have moved the cow out of Ontario to anywhere because heads would still be rolling if "Ontario" had caused a ban, of live cattle imports to the U.S. and it'd be bankrupt by now paying out all the damages.

But Alberta and all of the Western Canadas were rewarded for their compounded stupidity. And now they're trying to get money out f the feds to build (possibly the feds are going to staff as well) meat processing/packing plants that they plum forgot about and the feds are asking them "very complicated" questions, like what markets they have lined up?

Aside from the fact that Southern Ontario and Southwest Quebec have had privately owned meat/food processing plants for over 100 years, which is a question I would have put to Alberta, "what's your brain damage, and what's wrong with your OWN money?" [they have over $10 billion stuffed away in a "rain day'heritage fund and it's raining mad cows, the first one in the U.S. came from Alberta and 2 more have turned up in Alberta, and "It never occurred to you in over a hundred years to get your own meat/food processing packing plants, or the last 50 years with all of those oil/gas revenues we let you keep tax-free with full equalization handouts for seven year?" let alone whether they'd considered MARKETS to sell to if Inner Canada taxpayers have to pay for meat processing/packing plants in Alberta of all places, and they were dumbfounded. "Markets? We need the plants before we can get markets." Uh huh. Build 50,000 bird houses while you're at it and then figure out if you can sell them, and where and for what price -- idiots.

They don't even know what business plans are. "Won't the Americans be upset if you take jobs off them, then import to their markets?" Oh no, well it's possible, we haven't reallly looked into that.

And they also think they can go after American foreign markets with the usual they use to pawn their commodities off with, in Japan, South Korea and the like. "OUR beef may be deadly but it costs LESS due tot all the handouts we get from "the feds" and the lower exchange rate!"

What country in its right mind is going to screw the U.S. over for Alberta or anything else in the Outer Canadas? We don't sell commodities in the Inner Canadas. Just high value manufactured goods and services.

Like instead of pawning off natural resources and buying manufactured products in return, buying high, selling low, handing jobs/spin-off jobs and industries/new markets/expanded tax bases away, we actually MAKE THINGS and look around the world first to make sure that nothing is making the same and can undercut us, and that we have markets and have ten year business plans, all the marketing, everything, the usual lined up before any private investor will give anything a second glance. But we have to deal with private investors. The Outer Canada has to deal with handouts and zero accountability. "Do you have markets?" Hmm. We never thought of that but we have to build the plants first (nope, no one out there has the skill, they'll have to call in something from Southern Ontario and/or Southwest Quebec to build everything and to train everyone -- as usual) and they weren't even asked if they have human-captal lined up to staff the plants.

We could build the things, with our own tax money, in the "richest province in the Canadas," Alberta (GDP, fake, and per capita with no capita to speak of.. Libya does better than Alberta does, with less, no handouts from Inner Canada, in what's otherwise a desert country and less money from about its only source of revenues, oil/natural gas exports, than Alberta does -- far better compared to the homelessness and poverty of the handful of people in Alberta, when they should all be living in castles) if they could figure anything out.

The divisions in the Canadas were the usual before the FTA/NAFTA's. No one really knew much about the Canadas or cared much, it was "deemed" to be united, aside from those pesky Quebeckers, but everything changed after the FTA. The NAFTA was between the U.S. and Mexico. We don't trade much with Mexico.

The economies of Toronto and Montreal, so Southern Ontario and Southwest Quebec, which means quite a lot, oriented themselves North-South almost entirely, leaving the rest to sort out their own messes around commodities.

But the feds keep trying to force East-West on us (which would land Toronto in Detroit, it's a long way north to get to the rest of the Canadas from Southern Ontario) and so does the rest of the Canadas while also proclaiming that their "economies" are oriented North-South, not East-West and no kidding, they have no markets to speak of other than Southwest Quebec, so why would we care about them? Supply is supply. But they care due to East-West tax handouts from Southern Ontario and Southwest Quebec because they can't survive without them.

The handouts were based on the Canadas, long before any FTA existed. It's been 20 years and our economies are oriened north-south, not east-west, other than betwen real markets, Southern Ontario trades with Southwest Quebec markets, around high value goods and services that actually show up on economic radar screens but nothing compared to the North-South orientation.

So why do these ridicilous East-West handouts still exist? They don't even have their own law enforcement. We're three separate countries and Soutern Ontario-Southwest Quebec have absolutely nothing in common, economically, socially, socio-economically so politically or fiscally with the Outer Canadas.

We can't exist with one fiscal policy and exchange rate anymore. They think that pawning off raw commodities means something, we know it means nothing but failure, they should know by looking at their own pathetic economies and markets/populations, and with Southern Ontario and Southwest Quebec pulled from the rest of the Ontarios and Quebecs, economically and politically, separate central banks and currencies/exchange rates, they can have their commodiies based fiscal policy and exchange rate going up and down and all over the place like ... the price of commodities and we can have our stable diverse economies dictating fiscal policy and exchange rates; which investors will find to be much easier to deal with.

And we ARE Canada in every way imaginable, so it matters not what the rest want. Aside from holding every card in the deck that matters, the entire federal government is sitting right on our land, along with the Ontario feds and Quebec feds.

We don't have to market to the 'confederation of' the Canadas; just to Southern Ontario via Toronto and then others, which has been going on for about 3 years, but keeps moving up another notch and is getting quite intense in Toronto, and Quebec is a no-brainer. They leave the problems of Outer Quebec behind, the native issues and get their own republic and an economic and political union with Southern Ontario, so that they can keep using Canadian currency, passports, etc., but we're out of each other's political hair. They get their government and we get ours. The rest get to beg, borrow and try to steal whatever they can.

So the next time a "Canadian" tells you that there is such a thing as "Canada" let alone that it's united, ask it whether it's from Inner or Outer Canada, Southern Ontario or Southwest Quebec.

S_lone is stuck in the 1960's around this "Quebecoisness" marketing crap. Quebec has no way out of the Canadas other than the above way and it won't be anywhere near all of Quebec and if Quebec City politicians put up a stink/start making demands then Montreal will become the capitol city of Southwest Quebec and the satellite market of Quebec City, with nothing important in it other than Quebecoisness, will be kicked into Outer Canada, with no population on Quebec to speak of and no revenues to speak of -- so irrelevant.

There's a huge divide in the Canadas that can't go on. Not with the rest of the Ontarios and Quebecs (other than around farming, they'll be in the Outer Canadas but will get four to five times the subsidies they get now to bring them up on par with the U.S.; OUR farmers, with co-ops that'll have to re-structure to produce everything we need and won't even have to export to sell to rapidly growing markets) while the rest can rot for all anyone around here cares.

And too much marketing has been done on it to turn back. It'll be starting this year, not in 2010-15. The ROC/rest of the Canadas/Outer Canada is in for a very large wake up call.

And Toronto is the most multicultural city on the planet. It doesn't need any advice about "unique cultures" from "Quebecois" or anyone else. And won't be taking any.
 
no1important
#111
 
Reverend Blair
#112
I'd like to second that if you don't mind, No1.
 
s_lone
#113
S-Ranger, say whatever you want about economy but get your facts straight on Quebec cultural issues... "Quebecoisness", as you call it, only started gaining strength in the 60's and it has grown stronger ever since. If the YES side does win a future/possible referendum, southern Ontario won't be stopping Quebecers from creating their own country. You think we would suddenly stop our economical relations and isolate ourselves?

You tell me I'm retarted but it seems to me that all you said supports my point that if we don't change the nature of our Canadian federation, Quebec's seperatist movement will survive and perhaps eventually succeed.
 
cub1c
#114
First of all, "Québec" and "Québécois" needs "é"'s, whether you speak french or not.

From a Québécois point of view, I've read the whole thread and found it very interesting. This kind of debate really gets emotionnal for us, and we really feel that the rest of the Canada doesn't get that part.

People may evoke money (and everything that comes with it) as the reason, but it is really emotionnal. When they will ask me: I'm I ready to be a nation? For sure my eyes will be burning when I'll vote yes.

I just mentionned a big factor here, age. Because I'm only 22, and I've never been asked that question, because the last referendum was in 1995 and I was only 12.
I can't get you statistics on that one, but I think a great majority of my generation are separatists. The BQ and PQ knows it. If there is a referendum around 2008-2010, a whole generation (18-31) will speak for the first time on that question. This is REALLY important.

Referendum's like these can only be stopped by a Yes, or it will go on forever.

As for the language, what feeling do you get when someone with a foreign language comes in your country and speaks english to integrate themselves? I bet you would feel like it's normality. But there is nothing that makes Québécois so happy and proud when someone who speaks another language than French, integrates himself by speaking French.
This is so gratifying. Think about the reasons why it's like this now, and you'll see very good reason why seperation is the solution.

To me, the possibility that the rest of the Canada having bad feelings after a seperation would only prove a point: they had those feelings even before the idea of seperation. Why a group of people who claims their independance should be seen as bad? I think it's a pretty legitimate request.

We really are a distinct nation in this North America, whether the feds recognizes it or not.

But you know, I barely scratch the surface with this post.
 
no1important
#115
Quote:

We really are a distinct nation in this North America, whether the feds recognizes it or not.

You could say that about all provinces. You guys would make a very foolish mistake by leaving Canada. Quebec would turn into a third world state.
 
cub1c
#116
Quote: Originally Posted by no1important

Quote:

We really are a distinct nation in this North America, whether the feds recognizes it or not.

You could say that about all provinces. You guys would make a very foolish mistake by leaving Canada. Quebec would turn into a third world state.

To argument that every province is distinct like us is irrelevent and untrue. Québec is the only province where French is dominant.
We have our own star system, our own music, our own TV and shows, even our own meals!! We are really a distinct society.
We really don't depend on the rest of the Canada on this point!

Quebec would turn into a third world state? Do you really think what you are saying? This is so weak.

But we understand people in the Canada that says things like that.
They just don't know us. We've been accepting this for a long time.
 
cub1c
#117
I really encourage everybody who wants to know more about Québec and the separatist movement to read the following link:
http://mars.pingouin.ca/nationalisme...udescanada.htm

It's in French so you can try babelfish.

You will understand more about our history, how we survived the attacks to our culture, and that English Canada has an history of being allergic to everything in French (and that this feeling is still alive).

Of course this text is made by a separatist, but is very well done, with real facts, real quotes, and the real truth. And I found it hard to find text at this quality from the other side, those who want to stay in Canada. I guess I know why.

And by the way, if you really bring a attention at the 1995 referendum, you will see that the Yes camp should have won. And the facts that the Gomery Commission is unveiling is only a part of reason.
 
s_lone
#118
I think the "third world" argument is very unrealistic. Quebec would most likely be a country comparable to northern European countries like Sweden, Norway, Danemark etc. It's not like we would close our doors to the rest of the world you know... We would keep on doing business as usual in French and in English. I don't know whether or not we would keep going with the Canadian dollar. But it seems to me that it would be to the advantage of all. Perhaps a Quebec dollar would be weak at first but it seems to me that the Canadian dollar would also suffer from it's country being fragmented...
That type of argument (third world) is only used to try and scare Quebecers away from political independance and it only reflects the fear of Quebec federalists and Canadians to see the Canadian federation shattered to pieces... (Quebec seperation would raise huge issues for the rest of the country...)
 
jackd
#119
The subject of the Québec independatisme has been debated over and over during the last century and each of the valid and frivolous arguments, for or against it, have been repeated at least 500 times.
One thing is for sure in my mind:
Most of our friends in the ROC can not grasp nor comprehend the visceral, gut-wrenching, stomach twisting sentiments more than 50% of the French Québécois feel when they talk about our aspirations toward building our own nation.
Some will say our goals are to destroy Canada. This is very far from the truth. Quebec will need a strong Canada after separation, as a trading partner, a neighbor and for possibly some form of association on certain matters. This will also be to the benefits of the ROC. Destroying Canada is not even close to being an objective. If this ever happens, it will be a very sad consequence for both parties.
Some Québécois always bring the subject of language as being the main issue. It goes much deeper than that. Language is part of a culture, which is based on values inherited from generation to generation, which are the bases for our aspirations, which define our ways of thinking and our views on our society and on the world.
Most of the ROC frequently say Québécois are never in tune with other provinces. This is frequently true. No because we like or want to disagree, simply because we see things differently. No one can support the fact that if something is good for BC, Alta or NFLD, it must also be good for Quebec.
We have been asking for the official recognition of the "distinct society" status for years, along with the legislative arrangements that must come with it. We all know it did not work. Denying the status is rejecting that Quebec is different (distinct) and will never be accepted by Quebec, even by the present Liberal government. (which is very temporary by the way)
The Independence movement is not something that will go away by itself in our lifetime. We are at the stage where no amount of political arm twisting and cosmetic concessions to Quebec will have no more real effect on the determination of the Quebec people. The movement will gain some strengths and lose some over time, but soon, sometime, eventually, at the end, Quebec will separate.
I have been following this heated subject for the last 45 years and can see the writing on the wall very clearly.
 
cub1c
#120
I really feel the same way jackd, and the vast majority of Québécois too.

By the way, is you point of view from a anglo or franco Québécois?

And yes, if people would read/learn about our history and culture, they would see things done to us that is just inacceptable nowadays.

And yes, a country named Québec would be very like Sweden, Norway etc...
And the separatist political movement, BQ and PQ, is not hiding that they are influenced by their models.

jackd, 45 years is a lot of wisdom and you must have been there when general Charles de Gaule said: Vive le Québec libre! That must have been so powerfull, and Im really sad I wasnt born yet.

We all know will be leaving the country the way you said, it will happen. Its really twisting my heart that federalism is retarding us.
 

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