NAFTA; Did Mexico throw Canada under the bus ?


White_Unifier
#121
Quote: Originally Posted by AncientMuse View Post

Because Trump says so, that's why.
Whatever Trump (blessed be thy name) says is absolute and unquestionable gospel, engraved in stone... forever and ever, amen.
How dare you question the word of Trump.
Heretic !

I supported getting rid of the dairy cartel before Trump arose.

That said, there are better ways to care for each other than to maintain an inefficient industry. We don't care for each other by overpricing milk for the working poor.
 
Twin_Moose
Conservative
#122
Will Chapter 19 be a deal-breaker for Canada in NAFTA talks?

Quote:

It was the final night of tense trade negotiations and Canada finally got what it had long sought. Known as Chapter 19, it was an independent dispute resolution system that would determine whether punitive duties tacked onto exports were being applied unfairly.
It was the crown jewel of Canada’s original free trade negotiations with the United States, a testament to refusing to capitulate even when talks almost died.
“Politically, it has an iconic significance,” said Gordon Ritchie, deputy chief negotiator of the Free Trade Agreement in the late 1980s and one of the architects of the Chapter 19 clause.
“This was the last, absolute bottom line of the original … negotiations.”
Roughly 30 years later, Chapter 19 again finds itself at the centre of heated trade negotiations between the two countries. After NAFTA talks restarted last week, Canadian negotiators reportedly re-emphasized their desire to preserve the dispute panels for duties despite U.S. officials’ public statements that they want to kill the Chapter 19 mechanism.
Outside the negotiating room, trade lawyers and experts are divided over whether the future of Chapter 19 is worth fighting for.
The provision gives countries the ability to challenge each other’s tariff duty decisions in front of an expert panel made up of members from both countries, instead of leaving it to a U.S. or Canadian court to preside over its government’s own trade squabble.
The dispute mechanism focuses on punitive duties imposed on imports that a government believes are being unfairly subsidized by the exporting country, or dumped on the foreign market at a significantly lower price than they are sold for domestically.
Critics in the U.S. have long despised Chapter 19, and view its bilateral panels as unconstitutional infringements on national sovereignty. In a new draft trade deal between Mexico and the U.S. announced last week, the provision appears to have been dropped.
To some, it’s a valuable tool to challenge U.S. tariffs on softwood lumber or other Canadian exports, especially considering the unpredictability of the Trump administration; for others, it represents an outdated mechanism that is of dwindling use. Some say conceding it could mean securing a better deal on more pressing trade issues facing Canadians.
The original Chapter 19 was meant to be temporary, said Mark Warner, a trade lawyer who practises in both Canada and the U.S. The dispute resolution mechanism was supposed to be reviewed and potentially replaced in five years, he said, but was ultimately made permanent when it was adopted into the North American Free Trade Agreement, which came into effect in 1994.
Unlike when it was conceived in the 1980s, tariff disputes can be resolved outside Chapter 19 panels by the World Trade Organization, Warner said.
He warned that Canadian officials’ public insistence that Chapter 19 is non-negotiable could backfire if it opts, in the course of the negotiations, to compromise on the mechanism or eliminate it altogether.
“They painted themselves into a corner and I don’t know how they get out of it,” he said.
Trade lawyer Clifford Sosnow said Canada should be open to compromise on Chapter 19, but that we should get something in return. “I think that it’s a bargaining chip that can be used, and should be used for leverage,” said Sosnow, a partner at Fasken Martineau who has argued before Chapter 19 panels. “But it’s a very big ask, simply because it has deep political and emotional resonance among the Canadian public.”
Sosnow said he thinks Canadian negotiators should be willing to give up the clause if it means scoring exemptions from all U.S. “Buy American” or national security provisions, as well as opening U.S. state and municipal procurement contracts to Canadian companies.
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However, Ritchie, one of the architects of the provision, believes Chapter 19 is worth fighting to keep.
For Canada in the 1980s, having some kind of dispute resolution process meant legal challenges against U.S. government tariffs did not have to be heard in a U.S. courtroom, where some fear Canada would not get a fair shake.
At the time, Canada was being clobbered by “protectionist trade actions” by the U.S. Congress, which was using its trade laws to unfairly “slap penalties on imports from Canada,” said Ritchie.
Having a dispute resolution mechanism for these tariffs was crucial for Canada, which pulled the plug on negotiations because of the Americans’ reluctance to include it in the free trade agreement. The U.S. finally relented and, in the early years of the trade deal, Chapter 19 panels repeatedly sided with Canada that “the Americans had not applied their own laws fairly,” Ritchie said.

But the system has its limits, he admitted.
Ritchie said the dispute resolution has not had “the horsepower” to rein in heavily political softwood lumber disputes, which have been fought repeatedly before Chapter 19 panels. In the 2000s, despite repeated rulings by the panels in Canada’s favour, Ritchie said the U.S. government refused to abide by their decisions, prompting the Canadian government to cut a deal that temporarily ended the lumber dispute. The spat has since reignited.
Ritchie said the Chapter 19 resolution also doesn’t cover the current U.S. tariffs on Canada-made aluminum and steel, imposed on national security grounds.
“Even if we save Chapter 19, we’re by no means home-free. We have very serious problems in our bilateral relationship,” Ritchie said. “If I was the chief negotiator (in the current trade talks), I would be urging the government to authorize me to demand that any new agreement address these issues: the national security loophole and maintain Chapter 19.”
As talks resume this week, we may soon find out whether Chapter 19 will turn out to be a bargaining chip or a bottom line.

 
Twin_Moose
Conservative
#123
As NAFTA talks set to resume, Americans appear split on moving forward without Canada

Quote:

Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland will head back to Washington on Wednesday as work continues to try and hammer out a NAFTA deal.
But those discussions will come on the heel of renewed attacks by the American president on Canada, including a weekend tweet in which he suggested there is no "political necessity" for the U.S. to keep Canada in any renewed deal, as well as a new poll that suggests Americans are split over whether they want a revised deal to actually include Canada.
READ MORE: Donald Trump tweets there is ‘no political necessity’ for Canada to stay in NAFTA
An online poll done last week by the American news website Axios asked 2,433 American adults about Donald Trump's handling of the negotiations and found 50 per cent of respondents supported the proposed NAFTA replacement — details of which are not yet clear — while 43 per cent did not.
As well, 49 per cent oppose going ahead with a renewed deal if it does not include Canada.
Forty-six per cent said they would support ditching Canada's signature.
The margin of error is three percentage points.
Negotiations this week between Canada and the U.S. are set to tackle outstanding, thorny issues, including supply management, auto manufacturing quotas and dispute resolution measures.
The U.S. and Mexico last week announced a tentative agreement to replace the existing trade deal.
That agreement is not a new trade deal between the two countries, which Trump does not currently have the authority from Congress to negotiate, despite claims from the president to the contrary.
Congress has authorized fast-track negotiations to revise the trilateral NAFTA deal, not full negotiations for an entirely new bilateral trade deal.
“If the U.S. wanted a bilateral deal — and they don’t, they’ve repeated often they want a trilateral deal — they don’t have legal authority," said Raymond Bachan, Quebec's chief NAFTA negotiator and a former provincial finance minister, last month.
“They have the authority from Congress to negotiate a trilateral NAFTA deal in a fast-track way — meaning Congress votes yes or no on the final deal once it’s been reached. They don’t have that (fast-track) authority for a bilateral deal.”
The renewed negotiations will also take place under the cloud of comments Trump confirmed he made last week in an interview with Bloomberg News.
In the remarks, which Trump and that outlet agreed would be off-the-record, the president said the U.S. was not negotiating at all with Canada and that any revised deal would be "totally on our terms."
However, The Toronto Star later reported on the comments after receiving them from a source of its own. The Star was not bound by the original agreement between Trump and Bloomberg News.
Trump later confirmed that report on Twitter, saying, "At least Canada knows where I stand!"
Sources confirmed to Global News that Canadian negotiators confronted the Americans over the comments.
Neither Freeland nor Prime Minister Justin Trudeau have directly commented on them publicly, though.

Canada is not as beloved as we were led to believe, all that lobbying by the Gov. with taxpayer money sure isn't painting a pretty picture.
 
Hoid
#124
Majority of Americans support a NAFTA redo but not one that does not include Canada.

https://www.axios.com/nafta-poll-app...13024ac6e.html
 
Twin_Moose
Conservative
#125
Quote: Originally Posted by Hoid View Post

Majority of Americans support a NAFTA redo but not one that does not include Canada.
https://www.axios.com/nafta-poll-app...13024ac6e.html

By 1%, 46% have no problem to move on without Canada
 
Hoid
#126
Do you ever get tired of being wrong?
 
Twin_Moose
Conservative
#127
Looking in the mirror again ?

Quote:

Forty-six per cent said they would support ditching Canada's signature.

 
JamesBondo
+1
#128
Turdog invited labour union leaders to the table.
 
Hoid
#129
Forty-six per cent said they would support ditching Canada's signature.

So 54% do not support it?

Math is hard.
 
White_Unifier
#130
Quote: Originally Posted by JamesBondo View Post

Turdog invited labour union leaders to the table.

But not consumer organizations:
http://www.consumer.ca/

Whereas labour unions represent a small fraction of Canada's total population, consumer organizations can pretty well speak for any consumer.
 
CaptainTrips
+3
#131
Quote: Originally Posted by White_Unifier View Post

I supported getting rid of the dairy cartel before Trump arose.
That said, there are better ways to care for each other than to maintain an inefficient industry. We don't care for each other by overpricing milk for the working poor.

Canada's position at the negotiating table re dairy should be very simple: you stop subsidizing your dairy industry and we'll stop protecting ours.
 
justducky
#132
Quote: Originally Posted by Twin_Moose View Post

By 1%, 46% have no problem to move on without Canada

I'm sure when Canadians hear Canada is being asked to give up media to us giants and the likes of fox news Canadians will be fine with no deal too.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/amp/...mpression=true

"SNIP.....

Trudeau says no to U.S. demands in proposed NAFTA deal to buy Canadian media

ROBERT FIFE OTTAWA BUREAU CHIEF

STEVEN CHASE

IAN BAILEY

SEPTEMBER 4, 2018

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says he would not sign a renegotiated NAFTA deal that allows U.S. news giants to buy Canadian media, or accede to American demands to kill a binding mechanism for settling trade disputes.

Canadian officials tell The Globe and Mail that U.S. negotiators have been pushing to remove cultural exemptions from the North American free-trade agreement, which could allow U.S. media companies, such as FOX News, to buy majority stakes in newspapers and television and radio stations.

Canada would walk away from the table rather than allow that, Mr. Trudeau said on Tuesday.

“It is inconceivable to any Canadian that an American network might buy Canadian media affiliates, whether it is a newspaper or television stations or TV networks,” Mr. Trudeau told reporters in Surrey, B.C., where he made a transit funding announcement. “It would be a giving up of our sovereignty and our identity, and that is something that we will not accept.”



.....SNIP"
 
White_Unifier
#133
Quote: Originally Posted by CaptainTrips View Post

Canada's position at the negotiating table re dairy should be very simple: you stop subsidizing your dairy industry and we'll stop protecting ours.

The question becomes, should the economy benefit the consumer or the producer? If US taxpayer want to subsidize the food you eat, you should thank them for it.

That said, we we really have a problem with that, then a simple solution would be to say that any US farm that receives any US government subsidy can't export to Canada. This would just mean that US farmers would need to decide whether they want to take subsidies and focus on the US marker or refuse subsidies and focus on exporting to Canada because Canadian consumers don't want US taxpayers to subsidize the food they eat because we think that's not fair to US taxpayers.
 
justducky
#134
If there is no deal Canadian dollar will fall making our exports more competitive even though there will be duties on our exports to the US. We will be more competitive all around the world.

"SNIP......

Trump says there's 'no political necessity' to keep Canada in a new trade deal

Trump says there's "no political necessity to keep Canada in the new NAFTA deal," and says Congress "should not interfere" with the negotiations.Trump's comments pushes the Canadian dollar down against its U.S. counterpart.

Fred Imbert

The Canadian dollar fell against its U.S. counterpart on Tuesday after President Donald Trump said the U.S. and Mexico could move forward without Canada in a new NAFTA deal.

In a tweet Saturday, Trump said there is "no political necessity to keep Canada in the new NAFTA deal," and that Congress "should not interfere" with the negotiations.

The U.S. dollar rose to 1.3192 against the loonie on Tuesday, its highest level since July 20, when it hit 1.3289. The greenback later eased to trade at 1.3181.

Tuesday's moves and Trump's tweet come after the U.S. and Canada adjourned trade negotiations last week. The two countries are scheduled to resume talks on Wednesday.

.......SNIP"

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/04/cana...rade-deal.html
 
Christianna
No Party Affiliation
+1
#135
You know after the first NAFTA Mexico's wages went down,and the US cheated us in the soft wood agreement. The only county to profit from NAFTA was the US. Do we expect anything different this time? I wouldn't expect Trump to play fair.
 
pgs
Free Thinker
#136
Quote: Originally Posted by justducky View Post

I'm sure when Canadians hear Canada is being asked to give up media to us giants and the likes of fox news Canadians will be fine with no deal too.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/amp/...mpression=true

"SNIP.....

Trudeau says no to U.S. demands in proposed NAFTA deal to buy Canadian media

ROBERT FIFE OTTAWA BUREAU CHIEF

STEVEN CHASE

IAN BAILEY

SEPTEMBER 4, 2018

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says he would not sign a renegotiated NAFTA deal that allows U.S. news giants to buy Canadian media, or accede to American demands to kill a binding mechanism for settling trade disputes.

Canadian officials tell The Globe and Mail that U.S. negotiators have been pushing to remove cultural exemptions from the North American free-trade agreement, which could allow U.S. media companies, such as FOX News, to buy majority stakes in newspapers and television and radio stations.

Canada would walk away from the table rather than allow that, Mr. Trudeau said on Tuesday.

“It is inconceivable to any Canadian that an American network might buy Canadian media affiliates, whether it is a newspaper or television stations or TV networks,” Mr. Trudeau told reporters in Surrey, B.C., where he made a transit funding announcement. “It would be a giving up of our sovereignty and our identity, and that is something that we will not accept.”



.....SNIP"

Robert must be concerned .
 
pgs
Free Thinker
+2
#137
Quote: Originally Posted by White_Unifier View Post

The question becomes, should the economy benefit the consumer or the producer? If US taxpayer want to subsidize the food you eat, you should thank them for it.

That said, we we really have a problem with that, then a simple solution would be to say that any US farm that receives any US government subsidy can't export to Canada. This would just mean that US farmers would need to decide whether they want to take subsidies and focus on the US marker or refuse subsidies and focus on exporting to Canada because Canadian consumers don't want US taxpayers to subsidize the food they eat because we think that's not fair to US taxpayers.

Leave the government out of the equation . The producers cannot sell their produce if their are no consumers . If the producers don’t pay their workers there will be no consumers . No consumers no producers . An equilibrium will be found without government intervention .
 
Walter
#138
Quote: Originally Posted by pgs View Post

Leave the government out of the equation . The producers cannot sell their produce if their are no consumers . If the producers don’t pay their workers there will be no consumers . No consumers no producers . An equilibrium will be found without government intervention .

It’s called the market.
 
spilledthebeer
#139
Quote: Originally Posted by AncientMuse View Post

Because Trump says so, that's why.
Whatever Trump (blessed be thy name) says is absolute and unquestionable gospel, engraved in stone... forever and ever, amen.
How dare you question the word of Trump.
Heretic !

================================================== ================================================== ==================

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Numb skull says go ahead and sign a shite NAFTA deal with with United States!!!!!!!!!

Ordinary Cdns simply want an HONEST DEAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And of course LIE-berals are REFUSING TO BE HONEST- not with Yankees and not with Cdns either!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LIE-berals want a deal that gives them more Yankee gravy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LIE-berals want a deal that allows Yankees to stand on guard for Canada- at THEIR EXPENSE!!!!!!!!!!

LIE-berals want a deal that allows Russian, Chinese and Muslim spies to use Cdn documents to enter United States to harm Yankees!!!!!!

LIE-berals want to IGNORE criminal gangs that prey on both Yankees and Cdns because jailing criminals and deporting foreign thugs might cut into their supply of gravy!!!!!!!!!!!!

LIE-berals want a deal that allows them to behave like 3 year olds grabbing at cake and presents at their birthday party!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Twin_Moose
Conservative
+1
#140
Quote: Originally Posted by Hoid View Post

Forty-six per cent said they would support ditching Canada's signature.
So 54% do not support it?
Math is hard.

It doesn't mention opposed or undecided so math is hard if you don't know x or y in the equation
 
Twin_Moose
Conservative
#141
Quote: Originally Posted by justducky View Post

I'm sure when Canadians hear Canada is being asked to give up media to us giants and the likes of fox news Canadians will be fine with no deal too.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/amp/...mpression=true
"SNIP.....
Trudeau says no to U.S. demands in proposed NAFTA deal to buy Canadian media
ROBERT FIFE OTTAWA BUREAU CHIEF
STEVEN CHASE
IAN BAILEY
SEPTEMBER 4, 2018
Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says he would not sign a renegotiated NAFTA deal that allows U.S. news giants to buy Canadian media, or accede to American demands to kill a binding mechanism for settling trade disputes.
Canadian officials tell The Globe and Mail that U.S. negotiators have been pushing to remove cultural exemptions from the North American free-trade agreement, which could allow U.S. media companies, such as FOX News, to buy majority stakes in newspapers and television and radio stations.
Canada would walk away from the table rather than allow that, Mr. Trudeau said on Tuesday.
“It is inconceivable to any Canadian that an American network might buy Canadian media affiliates, whether it is a newspaper or television stations or TV networks,” Mr. Trudeau told reporters in Surrey, B.C., where he made a transit funding announcement. “It would be a giving up of our sovereignty and our identity, and that is something that we will not accept.”
.....SNIP"

Just keep the Canadian content or up the % a few notches and the problem is addressed, nobody will buy CBC and ESPN pretty much owns CTV, what else is left for Canadian culture
 
Twin_Moose
Conservative
#142
Quote: Originally Posted by Christianna View Post

You know after the first NAFTA Mexico's wages went down,and the US cheated us in the soft wood agreement. The only county to profit from NAFTA was the US. Do we expect anything different this time? I wouldn't expect Trump to play fair.

Why is that? The trade deficit was minor between both countries
 
Curious Cdn
Conservative
+2
#143
Quote: Originally Posted by Twin_Moose View Post

Just keep the Canadian content or up the % a few notches and the problem is addressed, nobody will buy CBC and ESPN pretty much owns CTV, what else is left for Canadian culture

A big chunk of what Americans think is their media culture originates with Canadian sources in the form of our comedians and news anchors. SNL has to have been one of the most influential satirical comedy shows over the last four and a half decades ... founded by and continually populated by Canadians. Think of it as a sort of Trojan Horse.
 
Twin_Moose
Conservative
+1
#144
Trudeau draws lines as NAFTA talks resume


I do agree with Chapter 19, we have won more disputes than we lost it is a good thing to keep
 
Twin_Moose
Conservative
#145
The Two Key Issues On Table To Bring Canada Back Into NAFTA


The Dairy thing IMO take it or leave it, I do agree with another poster that if the Egg and Dairy quotas are dropped for any reason U.S. subsidies have to be removed as well, but we seen how that worked out in Grain and slaughter cattle markets.
 
Curious Cdn
Conservative
#146
Quote: Originally Posted by Twin_Moose View Post

The Two Key Issues On Table To Bring Canada Back Into NAFTA
The Dairy thing IMO take it or leave it, I do agree with another poster that if the Egg and Dairy quotas are dropped for any reason U.S. subsidies have to be removed as well, but we seen how that worked out in Grain and slaughter cattle markets.

The Corn lobby in the United States is almost as powerful as the Oil lobby. The real issue here is that Trump is a bullshitter.
 
Hoid
#147
How does Canada even enter a deal with Donald Trump?

It is at least somewhat irresponsible to even try.
 
Twin_Moose
Conservative
#148
Do the Americans still have that Corn program to pay farmers not to seed to keep Corn prices inflated?
 
CaptainTrips
+1
#149
Quote: Originally Posted by White_Unifier View Post

The question becomes, should the economy benefit the consumer or the producer? If US taxpayer want to subsidize the food you eat, you should thank them for it.
That said, we we really have a problem with that, then a simple solution would be to say that any US farm that receives any US government subsidy can't export to Canada. This would just mean that US farmers would need to decide whether they want to take subsidies and focus on the US marker or refuse subsidies and focus on exporting to Canada because Canadian consumers don't want US taxpayers to subsidize the food they eat because we think that's not fair to US taxpayers.

No need to include all farm produce. The US side is making a fuss over dairy, so that's where we need to focus.
 
CaptainTrips
+1
#150
Quote: Originally Posted by Hoid View Post

How does Canada even enter a deal with Donald Trump?
It is at least somewhat irresponsible to even try.

Its not just a deal with Trump. Its a deal with the USA. People need to quit pissing their pants every time Trump says something.