Should the government guarantee full-time minimum wage?


Goober
Free Thinker
#31
Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo View Post

I have no proof but it is just common sense. If you raise minimum wage 20.00 an hour or 50.00 or 100.00 an hour, what is the effect?

Your number are unrealistic. Look at the numbers - many people on min wage work more than 1 job.

List of minimum wages in Canada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

List of minimum wages by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
taxslave
Free Thinker
+5
#32  Top Rated Post
The problem with a high minimum wage is that you can price an employer right out of business. Fast foods is a prime example. Ignoring the fact that most of it isn't healthy these places do provide a lot of employment and not just the minimum wage clerks. Now if a hamburger was to be priced at $10.00 to provide all the workers with a decent wage how many people could afford to buy a hamburger? This could very well force a closure or severe curtailing of the business.
We start our construction laborers at $12/hr with no experience. About 1 in five is worth that much. Probably 1 in five is worth more than that. That leaves 3 out of five that are a dead cost. Those good ones we try to keep but by having too many high priced helpers we become uncompetitive in the market and they all loose their jobs. Me too for that matter.
 
Bar Sinister
No Party Affiliation
+1
#33
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslave View Post

The problem with a high minimum wage is that you can price an employer right out of business. Fast foods is a prime example. Ignoring the fact that most of it isn't healthy these places do provide a lot of employment and not just the minimum wage clerks. Now if a hamburger was to be priced at $10.00 to provide all the workers with a decent wage how many people could afford to buy a hamburger? This could very well force a closure or severe curtailing of the business.
We start our construction laborers at $12/hr with no experience. About 1 in five is worth that much. Probably 1 in five is worth more than that. That leaves 3 out of five that are a dead cost. Those good ones we try to keep but by having too many high priced helpers we become uncompetitive in the market and they all loose their jobs. Me too for that matter.

What you describe is essentially the situation in much of Europe. Wages for the average worker are higher, therefore, the amount charged in various businesses has to be higher to cover costs. Europeans, however, do not seem to have much problem with paying the higher prices judging from the number of small businesses that flourish in every town. Mom and Pop businesses seem to exist on every street corner and in between.

I suspect that higher wages may have a dual effect. One is that they make goods and services more expensive. But the other is that they give the average wage earner a bit more to spend so one may cancel out the other.

I'm not sure how the situation relates to Canada. For one thing minimum wage is a provincial responsibility, so the federal government has no control over it. However, I will say that if a job exists then the person doing it is entitled to a decent living wage. No one should be forced to work in conditions of dire poverty with little or no chance of advancement.
 
JLM
No Party Affiliation
+1
#34
Quote: Originally Posted by Bar Sinister View Post

What you describe is essentially the situation in much of Europe. Wages for the average worker are higher, therefore, the amount charged in various businesses has to be higher to cover costs. Europeans, however, do not seem to have much problem with paying the higher prices judging from the number of small businesses that flourish in every town. Mom and Pop businesses seem to exist on every street corner and in between.

I suspect that higher wages may have a dual effect. One is that they make goods and services more expensive. But the other is that they give the average wage earner a bit more to spend so one may cancel out the other.

I'm not sure how the situation relates to Canada. For one thing minimum wage is a provincial responsibility, so the federal government has no control over it. However, I will say that if a job exists then the person doing it is entitled to a decent living wage. No one should be forced to work in conditions of dire poverty with little or no chance of advancement.

"Poverty" quite often has more to do with how much you spend more than how much you earn!
 
damngrumpy
No Party Affiliation
+1
#35
It is like legislating a moral issue, unfortunately these things come into being and end up
not being updated for years. When the poor or entry level workers are in that position
they often fall behind. BC just got a raise, the problem is the wage was nearly ten years
old and the hike is not in keeping with the reality of the times.
I hire people for periods of time during the year, I would never think of hiring minimum wage
employees. You get what you pay for. I have the same people come back year after year
because they receive a wage at least four to five dollars above minimum wage.
In addition everyone has lunch on the veranda and we provide it.
It is an old fashioned farming operation in that those who work for us are more like family.
People are treated fairly and with respect. I also know some real scoundrels in the farm
industry and I would say you need to legislate something because they do take advantage
of people.
 
JLM
No Party Affiliation
#36
Quote: Originally Posted by damngrumpy View Post

It is like legislating a moral issue, unfortunately these things come into being and end up
not being updated for years. When the poor or entry level workers are in that position
they often fall behind. BC just got a raise, the problem is the wage was nearly ten years
old and the hike is not in keeping with the reality of the times.
I hire people for periods of time during the year, I would never think of hiring minimum wage
employees. You get what you pay for. I have the same people come back year after year
because they receive a wage at least four to five dollars above minimum wage.
In addition everyone has lunch on the veranda and we provide it.
It is an old fashioned farming operation in that those who work for us are more like family.
People are treated fairly and with respect. I also know some real scoundrels in the farm
industry and I would say you need to legislate something because they do take advantage
of people.

You wouldn't be thinking of those employers who provide travel back and forth in vans with bald tires that can carry up to 15 passengers but only have seat belts for three?
 
skookumchuck
Free Thinker
+4
#37
Quote: Originally Posted by JLM View Post

It's actually pretty simple to figure out using logic..................Son 'o Mac gets a raise, so what do you think happens to Big Mac? Big Mac becomes "more valuable" to cover increased wages and what do you think happens to us old codgers on fixed income when sloppy old Mac goes from $11 to $12? We don't go there anymore. We buy a lb. of hamburger for $5 and a dozen buns for $3 and build our own at home for 70 cents a piece.

Some of us on fixed income add oatmeal to the burger. Sometimes i have to cook burger an extra 5 minutes to get rid of a 1/4 inch of water in the frying pan. Don't go to that store anymore.
I seldom go to a fast food place because i can buy two days worth of meals for the 14 bucks or so a decent burger and fries for each of us cost, besides, mine are way better.
 
JLM
No Party Affiliation
#38
Quote: Originally Posted by skookumchuck View Post

Some of us on fixed income add oatmeal to the burger. Sometimes i have to cook burger an extra 5 minutes to get rid of a 1/4 inch of water in the frying pan. Don't go to that store anymore.
I seldom go to a fast food place because i can buy two days worth of meals for the 14 bucks or so a decent burger and fries for each of us cost, besides, mine are way better.

When purchasing hamburger at the grocery store I only purchase the "lean" variety and if you watch the fliers you can occasionally find it for $2 a lb. Oatmeal is a healthy additive.
 
Machjo
+1
#39
Quote: Originally Posted by Goober View Post

Your number are unrealistic. Look at the numbers - many people on min wage work more than 1 job.

List of minimum wages in Canada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

List of minimum wages by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Realistic or not, the effect is the same, just not as extreme.

If the minimum wage is below or equal to the actual wage, it's redundant,; and if higher, it increases the risk of layoffs.

So rather than raise the minimum wage, how about raising employability so as to raise salaries natrually.

Also, should we introduce some kind of peace corps or some other organization that guarantees employment for the unemployed, then that would serve as a kind of minimum wage in that the moment this peace corps becomes more attractive than what's being offered on the market, people would join this peace corps, thus causing labour shortages in the private sector, thus forcing the private sector to outbid this peace corps. This would in effect serve to create a kind of unofficial minimum wage anyway.

What you seem to be suggesting is that without minimum wage all wages would drop to zero. If true, then how do you explain that many jobs pay above minimum wage as is?

Quote: Originally Posted by taxslave View Post

The problem with a high minimum wage is that you can price an employer right out of business. Fast foods is a prime example. Ignoring the fact that most of it isn't healthy these places do provide a lot of employment and not just the minimum wage clerks. Now if a hamburger was to be priced at $10.00 to provide all the workers with a decent wage how many people could afford to buy a hamburger? This could very well force a closure or severe curtailing of the business.
We start our construction laborers at $12/hr with no experience. About 1 in five is worth that much. Probably 1 in five is worth more than that. That leaves 3 out of five that are a dead cost. Those good ones we try to keep but by having too many high priced helpers we become uncompetitive in the market and they all loose their jobs. Me too for that matter.

So you ageree then that the minimum wage also hurts unskilled labour I assume?

If so, that's exactly my point. The minimum wage hurts those it aims to help the most, ironically enough. Anyone who actually cared about unskilled workers and the unemployed would support eliminating the minimum wage and instead find ways to actually help them rather than hinder them.

Quote: Originally Posted by Bar Sinister View Post

What you describe is essentially the situation in much of Europe. Wages for the average worker are higher, therefore, the amount charged in various businesses has to be higher to cover costs. Europeans, however, do not seem to have much problem with paying the higher prices judging from the number of small businesses that flourish in every town. Mom and Pop businesses seem to exist on every street corner and in between.

I suspect that higher wages may have a dual effect. One is that they make goods and services more expensive. But the other is that they give the average wage earner a bit more to spend so one may cancel out the other.

So if they just cancel each other out, then what's the point?

Quote:

I'm not sure how the situation relates to Canada. For one thing minimum wage is a provincial responsibility, so the federal government has no control over it. However, I will say that if a job exists then the person doing it is entitled to a decent living wage. No one should be forced to work in conditions of dire poverty with little or no chance of advancement.

I agree. I could see a situation whereby anyone would have the right to quit his job and go on social assistance at any time without being penalized. In this way social security would serve as a natural minimum wage of sorts, but I'm sure most people would rather work at a low wage than get the measely amount the government gives. Minimum wage takes that choice away whereby a person who would rather work at slightly below the current minimum wage is forced out of the market and forced to accept social assistance at half that. Is that not a form of cruelty and abuse? Certainly if social assistance is generous enough, then there ought to be no need for minimum wage, or likewise if some kind of guaranteed government employment programme like some kind of peace corps paid a decent wage that would serve as a form of wage control too.

When we have to introduce minimum wage, is that not a tacit admission that social security sucks so badly that we need a minimum wage to prevent people to willingly work for less? If social security or other guaranteed employment programme were decent, it would be redundant, don't you think?
 
DurkaDurka
No Party Affiliation
+3
#40
Full time guaranteed minimum wage does nothing, instead of legislating something like that the government should offer them some sort of training and or a plane ticket to Alberta to work as a labourer in the oil industry.
 
JLM
No Party Affiliation
#41
Quote: Originally Posted by DurkaDurka View Post

Full time guaranteed minimum wage does nothing, instead of legislating something like that the government should offer them some sort of training and or a plane ticket to Alberta to work as a labourer in the oil industry.

Would it be in order to check with "Alberta" first to see if he/she is wanted/needed there? Or maybe we just load up planes with our problem cases and dump them in Alberta!
 
DurkaDurka
No Party Affiliation
+3
#42
Quote: Originally Posted by JLM View Post

Would it be in order to check with "Alberta" first to see if he/she is wanted/needed there? Or maybe we just load up planes with our problem cases and dump them in Alberta!

How is someone willing to work as a labourer a "problem case"?

Yup, looks like Alberta has lot of labour jobs available.

Job Bank - Results
 
Machjo
#43
Quote: Originally Posted by DurkaDurka View Post

Full time guaranteed minimum wage does nothing, instead of legislating something like that the government should offer them some sort of training and or a plane ticket to Alberta to work as a labourer in the oil industry.

I'm all for government-paid job training for the unemployed. That's one of the things I don't mind paying taxes for.

Quote: Originally Posted by JLM View Post

Would it be in order to check with "Alberta" first to see if he/she is wanted/needed there? Or maybe we just load up planes with our problem cases and dump them in Alberta!

Now if Alberta does not want them, then we can't blame the unemployed anymore right.

Quote: Originally Posted by Goober View Post

Your number are unrealistic. Look at the numbers - many people on min wage work more than 1 job.

List of minimum wages in Canada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

List of minimum wages by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sweden none; set by annual collective bargaining contracts
 
taxslave
Free Thinker
+1
#44
Machjo: Not sure if a minimum wage hurts low income workers unless it is placed too high. It also depends on what government programs are available to help them up the ladder to better jobs.
I don't have a lot of experience dealing with these kind of jobs but if you relate it to higher paying ones then it would seem to me that it is in the employer's best interest to pay more for good help. EG. I would not hire anyone that would willingly operate a machine for minimum wage since I doubt they could look after it properly. Nor would I be likely to let someone without at least grade 12 run a machine worth $200G+ since they probably couldn't read the operators manual. WE pay a competitive rate which I think is too low but then we cannot charge what I consider the machines are worth and still get the work. Same goes for our labourers. We are very safety conscious which puts us at a competitive disadvantage at times as well.
Upshot is that sometimes doing what is right and proper can price you right out of the market, then no one wins except perhaps the scammers.
 
Nuggler
#45
Quote: Originally Posted by DurkaDurka View Post

How is someone willing to work as a labourer a "problem case"?

Yup, looks like Alberta has lot of labour jobs available.

Job Bank - Results


Sounds good. Except rental infrastructure hasn't kept up with the population influx. Or it's sky high.

Glad I'm not in that demographic

Sometimes it's good to be an ol'fart.
 
JLM
No Party Affiliation
#46
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslave View Post

Machjo: Not sure if a minimum wage hurts low income workers unless it is placed too high. It also depends on what government programs are available to help them up the ladder to better jobs.
I don't have a lot of experience dealing with these kind of jobs but if you relate it to higher paying ones then it would seem to me that it is in the employer's best interest to pay more for good help. EG. I would not hire anyone that would willingly operate a machine for minimum wage since I doubt they could look after it properly. Nor would I be likely to let someone without at least grade 12 run a machine worth $200G+ since they probably couldn't read the operators manual. WE pay a competitive rate which I think is too low but then we cannot charge what I consider the machines are worth and still get the work. Same goes for our labourers. We are very safety conscious which puts us at a competitive disadvantage at times as well.
Upshot is that sometimes doing what is right and proper can price you right out of the market, then no one wins except perhaps the scammers.

I believe safety is of utmost importance but I've learned through experience that some people are just naturally safe (and they are generally the most efficient ones) while others will never be safe at anything more complicated than building with plastercene.
 
Machjo
+1
#47
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslave View Post

Machjo: Not sure if a minimum wage hurts low income workers unless it is placed too high. It also depends on what government programs are available to help them up the ladder to better jobs.
I don't have a lot of experience dealing with these kind of jobs but if you relate it to higher paying ones then it would seem to me that it is in the employer's best interest to pay more for good help. EG. I would not hire anyone that would willingly operate a machine for minimum wage since I doubt they could look after it properly. Nor would I be likely to let someone without at least grade 12 run a machine worth $200G+ since they probably couldn't read the operators manual. WE pay a competitive rate which I think is too low but then we cannot charge what I consider the machines are worth and still get the work. Same goes for our labourers. We are very safety conscious which puts us at a competitive disadvantage at times as well.
Upshot is that sometimes doing what is right and proper can price you right out of the market, then no one wins except perhaps the scammers.

If quality training programmes are available, then minimum wage becomes redundant anyway.

And if not, then minimum wage is a hindrance unless it's too low in which case again it's redundant.
 
JLM
No Party Affiliation
+1
#48
I find "minimum wage" to be a totally ridiculous concept. The wage is exactly the same whether the employee is washing dishes for Big Mac or hauling auger bits on his shoulder up a mountain.
 
skookumchuck
Free Thinker
#49
Quote: Originally Posted by JLM View Post

When purchasing hamburger at the grocery store I only purchase the "lean" variety and if you watch the fliers you can occasionally find it for $2 a lb. Oatmeal is a healthy additive.

It was lean burger, some weasels add water when grinding.
 
JLM
No Party Affiliation
#50
Quote: Originally Posted by skookumchuck View Post

It was lean burger, some weasels add water when grinding.

That's been happening for 40 years that I know of. At one time I had a book written by a butcher advising of smart meat purchasing tips and listing some of the scams. The water probably doesn't hurt the meat so much as just getting the weight up so you pay more. Best probably to buy your meat from one of the big food outfits.
 
Machjo
#51
Quote: Originally Posted by JLM View Post

I find "minimum wage" to be a totally ridiculous concept. The wage is exactly the same whether the employee is washing dishes for Big Mac or hauling auger bits on his shoulder up a mountain.

Yup. And if he's washing dishes, it might price him out of a job, so harmful. And if he's hauling augur, it's likely redundant 'cause he's already above it. Redundant or harmful, take your pick.
 
The Old Medic
Conservative
#52
[QUOTE=Niflmir;1589807] Once upon a time this was simply provided by trades guilds and, where there were not enough tradesman of a particular trade, the Oddfellows. Then the monarchs got scared of the power of the guilds and forbade their existence. /QUOTE]

The above is pure unadulterated bunkum! It is "made up history" that has absolutely NO basis in fact at all.

Prior to the 1930's, it was a families obligation to care for their own in the vast majority of cases. And generally speaking, the extended family did a pretty good job of it.

It was the great depression of the 1930's that caused the demise of that system. Unemployment insurance, government "make work" programs, welfare, Social Security (Old Age pensions by whatever name for the general population) and a host of other programs were tried out.

They did almost nothing to end the depression, in fact, it got worse as countries blocked the imports of goods to "protect" their own industries, and ran huge deficits, raising taxes left and right and doing just about everything possible to stifle business (they didn't intend to stifle business, that was a side effect of their attempts to "prevent another depression").

Of course, families today are so fragmented that it would be impossible for them to take care of their own. It used to be that grandparents, adult children and their families all lived very close to each other (if not in the same house), and they actually felt a sense of obligation to take care of each other. Strange as it seems today, families actually used to work together, to help the entire family unit to advance.

Just as so many immigrant families do today. Which causes great envy among the general population, who accuse them of unfair competition, of getting breaks from the government (they they don't actually get), etc. Instead, they help one family unit get a store/business, they all wrok together and save profits, then they buy another business, and so on and so on.

They do what OUR society used to do, they pull themselves up by their own bootstraps, instead of sitting on their fat behinds and demanding that the government take care of them.
 
Cabbagesandking
No Party Affiliation
#53
Should all those elderly who would b receiving OAS but are to be forced back into the work force by this Budget (down the road), be shipped to Alberta?
 
Machjo
+2
#54
Quote: Originally Posted by Cabbagesandking View Post

Should all those elderly who would b receiving OAS but are to be forced back into the work force by this Budget (down the road), be shipped to Alberta?

Only if they're phisically fit enough to do so, obviously. We should never expect more from a person than what is reasonable.

Oh yes, and we won't expect the deaf to accept phone operator or radio operator jobs any more than we'd expect the blind to accept traffic cop jobs. I figured I'd point that out in case it was not obvious to you.
 
petros
+1
#55
Quote:


Quote: Originally Posted by
Cabbagesandking

Should all those elderly who would b receiving OAS but are to be forced back
into the work force by this Budget (down the road), be shipped to A lberta?

Untitled Document
 
Bar Sinister
No Party Affiliation
+1
#56
Quote: Originally Posted by JLM View Post

"Poverty" quite often has more to do with how much you spend more than how much you earn!


Really? And when you're forced to spend everything just to stay alive is that considered a decent living wage?
 
JLM
No Party Affiliation
#57
Quote: Originally Posted by Bar Sinister View Post

Really? And when you're forced to spend everything just to stay alive is that considered a decent living wage?

Yep, really! How many people who are close to the poverty line are paying horrendous interest charges on credit cards? How many people who are near the poverty line go grocery shopping without a list and don't spend any time checking for specials and sales?
 

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