Easter Uprising: In the end it beat the British


Jersay
#1
The Easter Rising (Irish: Éirí Amach na Cásca) was a militarily unsuccessful rebellion staged in Ireland against British rule on Easter Monday in April 1916. Nevertheless, despite its military failure, it can be judged as being a significant stepping-stone in the eventual creation of the Irish Republic.

The rebellion was the most significant since the rising of 1798 (lead by the father of Irish Republicanism, Theobald Wolfe Tone and the United Irishmen). It was an attempt by militant republicans to violently force independence from the United Kingdom. The Irish Republican revolutionary attempt occurred from April 24 to April 30, 1916, in which a part of the Irish Volunteers led by school teacher and barrister Pádraig Pearse and the smaller Irish Citizen Army of James Connolly seized key locations in Dublin and proclaimed an Irish Republic independent of Britain. The Rising was suppressed and its leaders executed.

The event is seen as a key turning point on the road to Irish independence, as it marked a split between physical-force republicanism and mainstream non-violent nationalism represented by the Irish Parliamentary Party under John Redmond. Redmond, through democratic parliamentary politics had won an initial stage of Irish self-government within the United Kingdom, granted through the Third Home Rule Act 1914. This Act, limited by the fact that it partitioned Ireland into Northern Ireland and "Southern Ireland", was placed on the statute books in September 1914, but suspended for the duration of World War I. It ultimately became enacted under the Government of Ireland Act, 1920.

However, by then Irish nationalism was dominated by militant Republican politics that had been espoused by the Easter 1916 rebels. Surviving officers of the uprising (including Eamon de Valera, Cathal Brugha, and Michael Collins) went on to organise the Irish War of Independence from 1919-1921 which resulted in the Anglo-Irish Treaty of 1921 and independence for 26 of Ireland's 32 counties. The executed leaders of the Easter Rising are venerated in the Irish Republican tradition as martyrs and as founders of the Irish Republic.

Planning the Rising
While the Easter Rising was for the most part carried out by the Irish Volunteers, it was planned by the Irish Republican Brotherhood (IRB). Shortly after the outbreak of World War I on August 4, 1914, the Supreme Council of the IRB met and, under the old dictum that "England's difficulty is Ireland's opportunity", decided to take action sometime before the conclusion of the war. To this end, the IRB's treasurer, Tom Clarke formed a Military Committee to plan the rising, initially consisting of Pearse, Eamonn Ceannt, and Joseph Plunkett, with himself and Sean MacDermott added shortly thereafter. All of these were members of both the IRB, and (with the exception of Clarke) the Irish Volunteers. Since its inception in 1913, they had surreptitiously hijacked the Volunteers, and had fellow IRB members elevated to officer rank whenever possible, hence by 1916 a large portion of Volunteer leadership were devoted republicans in favor of physical force. A notable exception was the founder and Chief-of-Staff Eoin MacNeill, who was determined to use the Volunteers as a bargaining tool with Britain following World War I, and who was certainly opposed to any rebellion that stood little chance of success. Nevertheless, the IRB hoped to either win him over to their side (through deceit if necessary) or bypass his command altogether. They had little success with either plan.

The plan encountered its first major hurdle when James Connolly, head of the Irish Citizen Army, a group of armed socialist labor union men, completely unaware of the IRB's plans, threatened to initiate a rebellion on their own if other parties refused to act. As the ICA was barely 200 strong, any action they might take would result in a fiasco, and spoil the chance of a potentially successful rising by the Volunteers. Thus the IRB leaders met with Connolly and convinced him to join forces with them. They agreed to act together the following Easter.

In an effort to thwart informers, and, indeed, the Volunteers' own leader, early in April Pearse issued orders for 3 days of "parades and manoeuvres" by the Volunteers for Easter Sunday (which he had the authority to do, as Director of Organization). The idea was that the true republicans with the organization (particularly IRB members) would know exactly what this meant, while men such as MacNeill and the British authorities in Dublin Castle would take it at face value. Of course this was too much to hope for, and MacNeill soon got wind of what was afoot and threatened to "do everything possible short of phoning Dublin Castle" to prevent the rising. Although he was briefly convinced to go along with some sort of action when MacDermott revealed to him that a shipment of German arms was about to land in County Kerry, planned by the IRB in conjunction with Sir Roger Casement (who ironically had just landed in Ireland in an effort to stop the rising), the following day MacNeill reverted to his original position when he found out the shipment was scuttled. With the aid of his cohorts of like mind, notably Bulmer Hobson and The O'Rahilly, he issued a countermand to all Volunteers, canceling all actions for Sunday. This only succeeded in putting the rising off for a day, although it greatly reduced the number of men who turned out.

[edit]
The Rising
The plan, largely devised by Plunkett (and apparently very similar to a plan worked out independently by Connolly), was to seize strategic buildings throughout Dublin in order to cordon off the city, and resist the inevitable attack by the British army. If successful, the plan would have left the rebels holding a compact area of central Dublin, roughly bounded by the canals and the circular roads. However, this would have required more men than the 1250 or so who were actually mobilized. As a result, the rebels left several key points within the city, notably Dublin Castle and Trinity College, in British hands, meaning that their own forces were separated from each other. This in effect doomed the rebel positions to be isolated and taken one after the other.

The Volunteer's Dublin division had been organized into 4 battalions, each under a commandant who the IRB made sure were loyal to them. A makeshift 5th battalion was put together from parts of the others, and with the aid of the ICA. This was the battalion of the headquarters at the General Post Office, and included the President and Commander-in-Chief, Pearse, the commander of the Dublin division, Connolly, as well as Clarke, MacDermott, Plunkett, and a young captain named Michael Collins. Meanwhile the 1st battalion under Commandant Ned Daly seized the Four Courts and areas to the northwest, the 2nd battalion under Thomas MacDonagh established itself at Jacob's Biscuit Factory, south of city center, in the east Commandant Eamon de Valera commanded the 3rd battalion at Boland's Bakery, and Ceannt's 4th battalion took the workhouse known as the South Dublin Union to the southwest. Members of the ICA also commandeered St. Stephen's Green and Dublin's City Hall. The breakdown of law and order that accompanied the rebellion was marked by widespread looting, as Dublin's slum population ransacked the city's shops. Ideological tensions came to the fore when a Volunteer officer gave an order to shoot looters, only to be angrily countermanded by James Connolly.

As MacNeill's countermand basically prevented all areas outside of Dublin from rising, the command of all active rebels fell under Connolly, who some say had the best tactical mind of the group. After being badly wounded, Connolly was still able to command by having himself moved around on a bed. (Although he had the dubious achievement of insisting that a capitalist government would never use artillery against their own property. It took the British less than 48 hours to prove him wrong.) The British commander, General Lowe, worked slowly, unsure of how many he was up against, and with only 1200 troops in the city. Lowe declared martial law and the British forces put their efforts into securing the approaches to Dublin Castle and isolating the headquarters at the GPO. Their main firepower was provided by the gunboat Helga and field artillery summoned from their garrison at Athlone, positioned on the northside of the city at Prussia street, Phibsborough and Cabra road. These guns shelled large parts of the city throughout the week and burned much of it down. (The first building shelled was Liberty Hall, which ironically had been abandoned since the beginning of the Rising.) Interestingly the Helga's guns had to stop firing as the elevation necessary to fire over the railway bridge meant that her shells were endangering the Vice-regal Lodge in Phoenix Park, (Helga was later Given to the Government of the Irish Free State and was the first ship in its Navy)

Reinforcements were rushed to Dublin from England, along with a new commander, General Maxwell. Outnumbering the rebels with approximately 16,000 British troops and 1000 RIC (the Volunteers are estimated at about 1000 and the ICA at under 250), they bypassed many of the defences, and isolated others to the extent that by the end of the week the only order they were able to receive was the order to surrender. The headquarters itself saw little real action. The heaviest fighting occurred at the rebel held positions around the Grand Canal, which the British seemed to think they had to take to bring up troops who had landed in Dún Laoghaire port. The rebels held only a few of the bridges across the canal and the British might have availed themselves of any of the others and isolated the positions. In particular, the Sherwood Foresters regiment were repeatedly caught in a cross-fire trying to cross the canal at Mount Street. Here a mere twelve volunteers were able to severely disrupt the British advance, killing or wounding 240 men. The rebel position at the South Dublin Union, further west along the canal, also inflicted heavy losses on British troops trying to advance towards Dublin Castle. Cathal Brugha, a rebel officer distinguished himself in this action and was badly wounded. Shell fire and shortage of ammunition eventually forced the rebels to abandon these positions before the end of the week. The rebel position at St Stephen's Green, held by the Citizen Army under Michael Mallin, was made untenable after the British placed snipers and machine guns in the surrounding buildings. As a result, Mallin's men retreated to the Royal College of Surgeons building, where they held out until they received orders to surrender.

The volunteers' headquarters' most noteworthy moment was when Pearse read the Proclamation of the Republic to a largely indifferent crowd outside the GPO. After that the rebels barricaded themselves within the post office and were soon shelled from afar, unable to return effective fire, until they were forced to abandon their headquarters when their position became untenable. On Saturday, April 29, from the new headquarters on Moore Street, after realizing that all that could be achieved was further death, Pearse issued an order for all companies to surrender.

The rebels had little public support at the time, and were largely blamed for hundreds of people being killed and wounded, (mostly civilians caught in the crossfire). The total casualties for the weeks fighting came to over 1200. Sixty four rebel volunteers were killed and 16 more were executed after the Rising. The British Army suffered 140 killed and 318 wounded. The police (RIC and DMP, suffered 17 deaths. At least 220 civilians were killed and 600 wounded. There may have been further civilian casualties which were never reported to the authorities. The only leader of the rising to die in the course of the hostilities themselves was The O'Rahilly.

Some 3430 suspects were arrested and 15 leaders (including all seven signatories of the independence proclamation) were executed (May 3–12). Among them was the already mortally wounded Connolly, shot while tied to a chair because he was unable to stand. At the time the executions were demanded in motions passed in Irish local authorities and by many newspapers, including the Irish Independent in an editorial. A total of 1480 people were interned after the Rising. Prisoners being transported to internment camps in Wales were jeered and spat upon by angry Dubliners.

[edit]
The Rising outside Dublin
Irish Volunteer units turned out for the Rising in several places outside of Dublin, but due to Eoin MacNeill's countermanding order, most of them returned home without fighting. Several companies were mobilised in Tyrone and 132 men on the Falls Road in Belfast. Liam Mellows led an abortive attack on Police station in Galway which was soon abandoned. Sean MacEntee and Louth Volunteers killed a policeman and a prison guard. In county Wexford, the Volunteers took over Enniscorthy from Tuesday until Friday, before symbolically surrendering to the British Army at Vinegar Hill - site of a famous battle during the Irish Rebellion of 1798. Around 1000 Volunteers mustered in Cork on Easter Sunday, but they dispersed after receiving contradictory orders from Dublin. Only at Ashbourne in Meath was there real fighting, when Volunteers ambushed a police patrol, killing 8 and wounding 15.

[edit]
Infiltrating Sinn Féin
The executions marked the beginning in a change in Irish opinion, much of which had until now seen the rebels as irresponsible adventurists whose actions were likely to harm the nationalist cause. As freed detainees reorganised the Republican forces, nationalist sentiment slowly began to swing behind the hitherto small monarchist Sinn Féin party, ironically not itself involved in the uprising, but which the British government and Irish media wrongly blamed for being behind the Rising. The surviving Rising leaders, under Eamon de Valera, infiltrated Sinn Féin and deposed its previous monarchist leadership under Arthur Griffith, who had founded the party in 1905 to campaign for an Anglo-Irish dual monarchy. Sinn Féin and the Irish Parliamentary Party under John Redmond fought a series of inconclusive battles, with each winning by-elections, until the Conscription Crisis of 1918 (when Britain tried to force conscription on Ireland) swung public opinion behind Sinn Féin.

"What if the British had been lenient to the Irish rebel leaders?" is a question that still lends itself to lively debate 1.

[edit]
1918 General Election
The general elections to the British Parliament in December 1918 resulted in a Sinn Féin landslide in Ireland (many seats were uncontested), most of whose MPs gathered in Dublin to proclaim the Irish Republic (January 21, 1919) under the President of Dáil Éireann, Eamon de Valera, who had escaped execution in 1916 through luck. (His physical location away from the other prisoners prevented his immediate execution, while his American citizenship led to a delay while the legal situation was clarified. By the time a decision was taken to execute him, and his name had risen to the top of the executions list, all executions had been halted.)

[edit]
Legacy of the Rising
Critics of the Rising have pointed to the fact that the Rising is generally seen as having been doomed to military defeat from the outset, and to have been understood as such by at least some of its leaders. Such critics have therefore seen in it elements of a "blood sacrifice" in line with some of the romantically-inclined Pearse's writings. Though the violent precursor to Irish statehood, it did nothing to reassure Irish unionists nor alleviate the demand to partition Ulster.

Nationalist views of the Rising have stressed the role of the Rising in stimulating latent sentiment towards Irish independence. On this view the momentous events of 1918-22 are directly attributable to the revitalisation of the nationalist consciousness as a result of the Rising and its immediate aftermath.

The theory has also been mooted that the Rising would have given the Irish Republic a role in a peace conference following an anticipated German victory in the First World War.

Historians generally date Irish independence (for the 26 counties) from 1 April 1922 (transfer of executive power under the 1921 Anglo-Irish Treaty, signed between Irish delegates and the British government after the Anglo-Irish War, forming the Irish Free State) and 6 December 1922 (transfer of legislative power) rather than from the 1916 Rising. The Irish Free State existed until 1937 when Bunreacht na hÉireann (the Irish constitution) was introduced, renaming the country "Ireland". At this stage Ireland was a Republic in everything but name. In 1949 the Oireachtas declared Ireland to be a Republic.

[edit]
Socialism and the Easter Rising
The Easter Rising has sometimes been described as the first socialist revolution in Europe. Whether or not such a statement is true is debatable. Of the leaders, only James Connolly was devoted to the socialist cause. Although the others nominally accepted the notion of a socialist state in order to convince Connolly to join them, their dedication to this concept is highly questionable at best. Political and cultural revolutions were much more important in their minds than economic revolution. Certainly men like Pearse were resigned to the notion that the rising would be a military failure, and thus any promises pertaining to its aftermath were inconsequential. Connolly clearly was skeptical of his colleagues' sincerity on the subject, and was prepared for an ensuing class struggle following the establishment of a republic. Furthermore, Eamonn De Valera , the most prominent surviving leader of the rising and a dominant figure in Irish politics for nearly half a century, could hardly be described as Socialist. Many years later, the Soviet Union would be the first and only country to recognise the Irish Republic, later abolished under the Anglo-Irish Treaty. Lenin, who was an admirer of Connolly, rounded on communists who had derided the Easter Rising for involving bourgeois elements. He contended that communists would have to unite with other disaffected elements of society to overthrow the existing order, a point he went on to prove the following year during the Russian Revolution.

[edit]
Men executed for their role in the Easter Rising
Patrick Pearse
Thomas J. Clarke
Thomas MacDonagh
Joseph Mary Plunkett
Edward (Ned) Daly
William Pearse
Michael O'Hanrahan
John MacBride
Eamonn Ceannt
Michael Mallin
Cornelius Colbert
Sean Heuston
Sean MacDermott
James Connolly
Thomas Kent
Roger Casement

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_Uprising
 
Jersay
#2
Come on. They beat the british in the end.
 
cortez
#3
yep they beat their slimey oppressors
i love the irish-- such spirit

and wasnt de valera-- an american of irish --spanish descent-- ouch!!!
 
cortez
#4
yep they beat their slimey oppressors
i love the irish-- such spirit

and wasnt de valera-- an american of spanish-irish descent-- ouch!!!
 
Jersay
#5
Exactly.

The good old Irish.
 
Blackleaf
#6
Not all of them did.

We still have, rightly, Northern Ireland.

And they ain't having it back.
 
Blackleaf
#7
Quote:

Men executed for their role in the Easter Rising
Patrick Pearse
Thomas J. Clarke
Thomas MacDonagh
Joseph Mary Plunkett
Edward (Ned) Daly
William Pearse
Michael O'Hanrahan
John MacBride
Eamonn Ceannt
Michael Mallin
Cornelius Colbert
Sean Heuston
Sean MacDermott
James Connolly
Thomas Kent
Roger Casement

Tut tut. Naughty boys.

Some people will never learn that if they anger the British, then they'll suffer the consequences.

And these guys obviously didn't appreciate the fact that the English, as the world's first and, at one point ONLY, civilised nation, CIVILISED the Irish. It was the English who took CHRISTIANITY to Ireland and if it wasn't for us they'll still be worshipping their fake, make believe Celtic gods and probably still offering human sacrifices to them.
 
cortez
#8
come on
it was the french
that is the normands who civilized YOU
and that is really the source of you antifrench sentiment
you owe them more than you could ever repay
 
Jay
#9
The Normans are Europe's and North America's rightful owners.
 
Blackleaf
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by cortez

come on
it was the french
that is the normands who civilized YOU
and that is really the source of you antifrench sentiment
you owe them more than you could ever repay

The French owe us for not surrendering easily during WWII and liberating them from the Nazis.

The Normans didn't civilise the English. Look at the legal system. Before the Normans arrived, we had a good legal system, the best in the world.

But what happened when the Normans arrived? They replaced it with a legal system of their own which, being French, was inefficient and caused the crime rate to soar. Why was it inefficient? Because if a person witnessed a murder and they went to the authorities and reported the murder, then the accused, when brought to trial could either challenge the accuser to a battle and if the accused won then he was innocent or he could do trial by water, where he was ducked in water and if he drowned then he was guilty. BUT if the murderer was ten times bigger than the person who witnessed the murder then the witness would NOT report the murder as they knew that if they did then they might have to do battle with the accused so that the accused could prove his innocence. So why would he want to do battle with a guy who weighs 20 stone and is built like a brick shithouse? So this reluctance to accuse someone of committing a crime made the crime rate in Norman England soar.

It was only after the Normans left that the more civilised (and cleverer) English could get back their own superior legal system.
 
Blackleaf
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by Jay

The Normans are Europe's and North America's rightful owners.

How'd you work that one out?

I think the British are North America's rightful owners considering we owned most of it.
 
Jersay
#12
The British were a bunch of bumbling savages until the Romans and then the Normans or Viking people came and civilized you.

Good for the Irish to kick some snooby British ass.
 
Sassylassie
#13
Sassy Note to Self: Email the Queen and ask her to talk to the staff at the Tower of London, her bas***d secret brother is off his meds again.


P.S. Remind staff Blackseat is not to use the internet for more than two hours a day.
 
Blackleaf
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by Jersay


Good for the Irish to kick some snooby British ass.

The Irish LOST the Easter Uprisings.

The British executed -

Men executed for their role in the Easter Rising
Patrick Pearse
Thomas J. Clarke
Thomas MacDonagh
Joseph Mary Plunkett
Edward (Ned) Daly
William Pearse
Michael O'Hanrahan
John MacBride
Eamonn Ceannt
Michael Mallin
Cornelius Colbert
Sean Heuston
Sean MacDermott
James Connolly
Thomas Kent
Roger Casement

They didn't kick our butts - we kicked theirs.

And you need to be reminded on who the good guys were. The Easter Risings took place in 1916, at a time when Britain (which the whole island of Ireland was then a part of) was at war with Germany.

But whilst the rest of the country was fighting German tyranny, the Irish, the Republicans, SUPPORTED the Germans and were hoping that they would invade Ireland in the hope that that would get their independence.

When Hitler committed suicide, the Republic of Ireland, along with Japan, was the only country in the world in which it opened a book of condolences for Hitler for its politicians to sign. The "good old" Irish as you call them REFUSED to allow British and American ships to be based anywhere in the Republic of Ireland which would have made it easier for us to fight the Germans.

Yeah, those "good old" Irish supported the Germans in both World Wars.
 
Blackleaf
#15
The IRA is a good example of Irishmen who supported the Nazis.

One of the survivors of the Easter Uprisings, Eamonn de Valera, who later became Ireland's first President when it broke away from Britain, was hugely anti-Semitic and was a known Nazi supporter.

How the Irish Free State Supported the Nazis and Hated Jews
(from FAIR - Families Acting for Innocent Relatives - the ionnocents killed by the IRA)

The Nazi side of the Irish Republican Movement

Mary McAleese (Irish President)

The recent inflammatory comments made by Presidential hate-monger Mary McAleese has brought to public attention the issue of Nazism and anti-Semitism. As the world stopped to remember the Nazi genocide 60 years on from the Allied liberation of Auschwitz, it is fitting if we remember the allegiances between the citizens and government of what what was the Irish Free State, including their most radical front - Sinn Fein/IRA; and anti-Semitism/National Socialism.



de Valera's beloved Fuhrer

The sectarian and inflammatory comments made by Mary McAleese were as follows: (stated with reference to Nazis)

"They gave to their children an irrational hatred of Jews in the same way that people in Northern Ireland transmitted to their children an irrational hatred of Catholics, in the same way that people give to their children an outrageous and irrational hatred of those who are of different colour and all of those things,"

The implication of which is the Ulster Protestants are as abhorrent as Nazis, while Roman Catholics as victimised as Jewry, and thus Irish Republicanism's bloody struggle murdering thousands of innocent Protestants is perfectly justifiable. To oppose this would therefore be tantamount to supporting Nazism.

These comments were hardly surprising coming from someone whose republican terrorist sympathies have been no great secret. The reality of Irish treatment of Jews and their conduct during World War Two should cause Mrs McAleese to hang her head in shame rather than pontificate to others.

We only have to look back to the first Irish holocaust memorial day on 26th January 2003 when Justice Minister Michael McDowell openly apologized for Irish wartime policy that was inspired by "a culture of muted antisemitism in Ireland," which discouraged immigration by Europe's shattered Jews. He said that "at an official level the Irish state was at best coldly polite and behind closed doors antipathetic, hostile and unfeeling toward the Jews."

Eamon de Valera

Sixty Years ago on the 2nd May 1945 just at the close of World War Two the political leader of the Irish Free State and embodiment of the Irish Republican movement failed even to be discreet in his support for Nazism. Eamon de Valera, the survivor of the 1916 Easter rising (a track record for helping German war efforts), saw fit to sign a petition of condolence at the German legation in Dublin to express his grief on the death of Hitler. Furthermore, he went to personally commiserate with the Nazi representative in Eire, Dr Eduard Hempel on the death of their beloved Fuhrer. Later on the Dublin mob vandalised the British High Commission and the US embassy on news of the Allied victory, both countries being outraged at Ireland's attitude and actions.

Please note this event took place a full three months after the liberation of the Auschwitz-Birkenau concentration camp and the revelation of the full horror of the Nazi genocide, and was only two weeks after British troops had liberated Bergen-Belsen, accompanied as it happened by an Irish doctor. There could be no possibility that de Valera and the Dail were unaware of the Nazi treatment of Jews, and yet the leader of supposedly neutral Ireland still wished to pay his respects to one of the most evil men in the history of the world. It was a display of support that no other national leader on earth made. At the time it was defended as a diplomatic gesture but was one that not even General Franco was insensitive enough to make.

It is clear that de Valera was sympathetic to the Nazi slaughter of Jews, and still willing to be open about it when it was clear that there would be no comeback for Nazi Germany and no united Ireland on the back of an axis victory and the bayonets of the SS. It is interesting to note that de Valera's visit was publicly applauded in the Irish press by Irish republican supporting literary gem, George Bernard Shaw.



Irish Anti-Semitism

This of course was not the only manifestation of Irish sympathy for Nazism which led to them being rebuffed scornfully by the USA, that prevented their qualification for Marshal Aid, and delayed their entrance into the United Nations until 1957. During the War officials of the Irish Free State were outrageous in their racist anti-Semitism which was openly tolerated by the Roman Catholic hierarchy and common currency in Irish society. Indeed Hitler's racial criteria for keeping out the Jew were still being used in Eire 8 years after Hitler's death. A 1953 memo from the Dublin department of Justice argues that vetting refugees into the Republic should be on a similar basis to that 'adopted for the admission of non-Ayran refugees' in 1938 and 1939. The Department of Justice went on to depicte the eastern European Jews applying for asylum as a danger to the Irish State. "There is strong anti-Jewish feeling in this State which is particularly evident to the Alien Section of the Department of Justice." They went on to write 'Sympathy for the Jews has not been particularly excited at the recent news that some thousands are fleeing westwards because of the recent round-up of communist Jews who had been prominent in Government and in government service in eastern European countries.'

When in the Dail in 1943, Oliver J. Flanagan praised Hitler for ridding Germany of Jews claiming, "I doubt very much if they are human!", he was not challenged by any other member. Later in a speech to the Dail he said "There is one thing that Germany did and that was to rout the Jews out of their country. Until we rout the Jews out of this country it does not matter a hair's breadth what orders you make. Where the bees are there is honey, and where the Jews are there is money." Flanagan was soon to join Fine Gael and remained a T.D. for them until 1987 briefly becoming Minister for Defence in the late 1970's. In 2004 Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny T.D. eulogised the memory of the nazi monster on the resignation of his son from politics "Charlie Flanagan continued the long tradition of service given by his late father Oliver J. to the people of Laois/Offaly in exemplary fashion." An exemplary Jew hater indeed! J.J. Walsh T.D. who had been a minister in the Cosgrave government was another high ranking anti-Semite who described Irish Jews as a "gang of parasites".

Anti-Semitism and praise for fascism was also rife within the Roman Catholic hierarchy. The main body organising support for Franco was the Irish Christian Front (I.C.F.) a broad based pressure group which , in the early months of the Spanish civil war organised massive demonstrations and had, initially at least, more widespread support than the Blueshirts. The Front's founders were Patrick Belton, who was formerly a T.D. for both Fianna Fail and Fine Gael as well as being an ex-Blueshirt, and Alexander McCabe, formerly elected for both Sinn Fein (pre-1922) and Cumann Na nGaedheal and later to be a member of Eoin O'Duffy's pro-nazi People's National Party. At one I.C.F. rally in Cork in September 1936 40,000 people assembled to hear Monsignor Patrick Sexton, Roman Catholic Dean of Cork, blame the Spanish civil war on "a gang of murderous Jews in Moscow". Beside him stood Alfred O'Rahilly, the future president of the University College of Cork, and Douglas Hyde, the future president of the Irish state who up until introduction of the Euro has his head on the Irish £50 note.

www.victims.org
 
cortez
#16
the atrocites of the british empire exceeded those of the nazis
 
Blackleaf
#17
Yeah. Worse than sending thousands of Jews to their deaths.

Being an al-Qaeda supporting Canadian, it probably wouldn't surprise me if you wanted the Nazis to win WWII.
 
cortez
#18
yeah worse
and i dont support any terrorist organisation whether its alqueda or the british military
 
Blackleaf
#19
The British Military isn't a terror organisation - although it can cause terror in people who get on its bad side.

The IRA and Al Qaeda are terrorist organisations. What sort of terrorist organisation gets rid of a dictator and brings democracy to a country?
 
Finder
#20
Blackleaf, I'm a little sensitive about this topic as my back ground is Irish and I do support the republican cause. But calling Mr Eamonn de Valera a facsist or a supporter of such is crazy. The Irish were horribly repressed by the British who were acting more like Facsist then him. Yes the IRA would help the nazi's keep there lights on so the British would be easyier targets, but the Irish had no interest in helping the British and did not know the evils of the nazi's either.

I myself am not one whom would have supported Mr Eamonn de Valera because I think he had set up Mr Michael Collins and was unable to see the Free Irish State turn into the the Republic. History in the most part has proven Michael Collins the father of the current Irish Republic mostly right. Even though today The Republic may not rule all of Ireland, I do not think if Ireland had accepted MR Eamonn de Valera rejection of the Irish Free State and had fought against it as a united people or with plebisite as which was used, there would not be a Republic today.

The love my nation, well my homeland at least, as anybody else, as any Brit would love Britian, as any German would love Germany. But Ireland, like the USA had to fight tooth and nail for freedom from the Brits. It was that much harder fighting when your next door to the imperalists.

So when you fault the Irish for not tickling the Brits for their freedom, I think the Irish fought well and hard and won there freedom in the end, and went to the table as Michael Collins did at the right time and did what any civilized nation would do. Though the stuggle for the Irish reoublic may not be over because the North of Ireland is still under repression from the British I think as the seculerization of the Republic most caused by the economic bomb of the 90's, I think it may be possible in the near future for the North of Ireland to be included into the Republic.


Edit: just to make myself clear I am not a supporter of the IRA, as I am for lack of better terms a "pro-treaty" supporter.
 
cortez
#21
well said finder
 
Blackleaf
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by Finder

Blackleaf, I'm a little sensitive about this topic as my back ground is Irish and I do support the republican cause. But calling Mr Eamonn de Valera a facsist or a supporter of such is crazy. The Irish were horribly repressed by the British who were acting more like Facsist then him. Yes the IRA would help the nazi's keep there lights on so the British would be easyier targets, but the Irish had no interest in helping the British and did not know the evils of the nazi's either.

What a load of rubbish you speak. All you are doing is making excuses for a man, de Valera, and a country, the Irish Free State, for SUPPORTING the NAZIS. How could the Irish NOT know what the NAZIS were like? The British and EVERYONE ELSE in Europe knew what the NAZIS were like, so why not the Paddies? I know the British always say that the Irish are a bit "thick", a bit "stoopid", but surely they couldn't be that stupid.

De Valera pledged his support and admiration for the NAZIS just two weeks or so AFTER the British liberated the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp. Could he not read newspapers?

De Valera and the IRA and the Irish Government at the time were NAZI-loving anti-Semites. What more could be said about it? They even had a book of condolences for Hitler after his death at the German Embassy in Dublin.

Quote:

So when you fault the Irish for not tickling the Brits for their freedom, I think the Irish fought well and hard

It's just a pity that they decided to fight Britain for independence in 1916 DURING WORLD WAR I. They might have fought "hard and well" for their independence but it's just a pity that they couldn't let the rest of Britain fight hard and well against the Germans, whereas we had to concentrate on the Easter Rising instead, therefore not helping Britain's war effort against the Germans.
 
Blackleaf
#23
Quote:

Men executed for their role in the Easter Rising
Patrick Pearse
Thomas J. Clarke
Thomas MacDonagh
Joseph Mary Plunkett
Edward (Ned) Daly
William Pearse
Michael O'Hanrahan
John MacBride
Eamonn Ceannt
Michael Mallin
Cornelius Colbert
Sean Heuston
Sean MacDermott
James Connolly
Thomas Kent
Roger Casement

I mean, just look at the men executed in 1916 and their role with the Germans.

Despite the fact that in 1916 Britain was at war with Germany, Roger Casement (like Irish Republicans in BOTH World Wars) was a strong supporter of Germany. During WWI, he travelled to Germany and printed lots of Irish Republican material in German newspapers. The Germans then provided him with weapons to use against the British. He then tried to smuggle these weapons into Britain in 1916 - which is why he was hanged for treason.
 
cortez
#24
the germans
the british
your as bad as each other
 
Finder
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by Blackleaf

Quote: Originally Posted by Finder

Blackleaf, I'm a little sensitive about this topic as my back ground is Irish and I do support the republican cause. But calling Mr Eamonn de Valera a facsist or a supporter of such is crazy. The Irish were horribly repressed by the British who were acting more like Facsist then him. Yes the IRA would help the nazi's keep there lights on so the British would be easyier targets, but the Irish had no interest in helping the British and did not know the evils of the nazi's either.

What a load of rubbish you speak. All you are doing is making excuses for a man, de Valera, and a country, the Irish Free State, for SUPPORTING the NAZIS. How could the Irish NOT know what the NAZIS were like? The British and EVERYONE ELSE in Europe knew what the NAZIS were like, so why not the Paddies? I know the British always say that the Irish are a bit "thick", a bit "stoopid", but surely they couldn't be that stupid.

De Valera pledged his support and admiration for the NAZIS just two weeks or so AFTER the British liberated the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp. Could he not read newspapers?

De Valera and the IRA and the Irish Government at the time were NAZI-loving anti-Semites. What more could be said about it? They even had a book of condolences for Hitler after his death at the German Embassy in Dublin.

Quote:

So when you fault the Irish for not tickling the Brits for their freedom, I think the Irish fought well and hard

It's just a pity that they decided to fight Britain for independence in 1916 DURING WORLD WAR I. They might have fought "hard and well" for their independence but it's just a pity that they couldn't let the rest of Britain fight hard and well against the Germans, whereas we had to concentrate on the Easter Rising instead, therefore not helping Britain's war effort against the Germans.


My friend you do not know your history though you try to cut and paste it very well.

De Valera was the leader of the IRA once Mr Collins had acceted the Treaty and plebicite did as well. De Valera went underground and the Irish Civil war then went on for a good long while. The Irish Free State which you have somehow said was tied to the Nazi's and in which I support, was actually funded and armed by the British government and Mr Collins and the Free state was actually still apart of the UK but with Free State status so please get your facts right. Also Mr Collins and the Irish Free State faught against the De Valera faction of the IRA which Mr Collins had just recently commanded.

Though I can see you are a British national and I respect that I can not forgive the 300 some odd years of repression that the UK has brought to Ireland, even to this day the UK will not let the North of Ireland go.

Do I think De Valera was wrong in going against the Treaty, yes. Do I think he was a nazi, or a nazi supporter. No. He took the old adage, "the enemy of, of my enemy is my friend". This can come back to bite you but when your people are repressed you become desperate.

Also that small list of exicuted are not including the hundreds who died during the fighting and the hundreds of thousands who had died during the 300 years of repression and war by the British.

So get on your high horse and try to twist history to make it appear as if somehow Ireland had slipt out of the United Kingdom by the hands of the devil, but I will sleep tonight knowing very well that the Great British empire could not hold onto that small little Island right next door to them because my people were brave enough, faught like demons, and were able to bring a super power to its knees when the UK was something.

here's a little gaulic for ya. "Sinn Féin", ourselves... alone!
 
Daz_Hockey
#26
I find it insulting that anyone who has the nerve to crassly misrepresent the english (which obviously is who they mean when they use the term "British") as snobby when they know f@ all about us!!!

secondly..when exactly was that date?...1921?...yeah very calculating by the irish, hit the english between ww1 and ww2...when they are at their weakest eb and call it a victory....well it's no victory....it's cowardess, hit a man when he's down, which we were on our knees in those years.

But the fact is...it's BS.....the Irish ALLOWED themselves to be used as pawns by the nazis, leaving their lights on to destroy english cities......AND ACTUALLY THE NORMANS ARE GERMANIC....NOT AT ALL FRENCH...for example, William the 1st's surname....like mine, was Hocke(y), which is HIGHLY Germanic...nope, thats one victory the french can never claim...it was germanic infighting, nothing more.
 
Finder
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by Daz_Hockey

I find it insulting that anyone who has the nerve to crassly misrepresent the english (which obviously is who they mean when they use the term "British") as snobby when they know f@ all about us!!!

secondly..when exactly was that date?...1921?...yeah very calculating by the irish, hit the english between ww1 and ww2...when they are at their weakest eb and call it a victory....well it's no victory....it's cowardess, hit a man when he's down, which we were on our knees in those years.

But the fact is...it's BS.....the Irish ALLOWED themselves to be used as pawns by the nazis, leaving their lights on to destroy english cities......AND ACTUALLY THE NORMANS ARE GERMANIC....NOT AT ALL FRENCH...for example, William the 1st's surname....like mine, was Hocke(y), which is HIGHLY Germanic...nope, thats one victory the french can never claim...it was germanic infighting, nothing more.

So you are saying my people don't have the right to self determination? Thats no better then the nazi's.......

"Hey Laak, the british just got back to me, that they are not ready to give us our freedom yet... Well O'brian, lets go home and forget about and ask them in another 20 years, maybe they will change their minds then.."

Whatever!!! Let's see which nations in Europe were pretty much untouched after ww1 making it the only real power. THE UK so don't give me that post ww1 bull sh*t. The bombing of the UK happend during ww2!!!!!!
 
Daz_Hockey
#28
and comparing the british army to the nazi's?....youve gone too far this time....thats hurtful and insulting, so you may be of irish stock finder, I commend you, I have irish relatives and ancestors myself (doesnt mean I agree with you)...and cortez...well,well,well...here you go again.

The atrocities done by the british army happened over the course of 300 years, and were imeasurably different to those of the nazi's, it is completly wrong to compare the the two.

and if that's what you wanna do...what about your dearly beloved america eh?....how many natives have they managed to wipe off the face of the earth?....no dont start bringing ur stereotypical american BS here, cus it's not wanted britian and Ireland have been fighting for a VERY VERY long time, you could say it's a micro example of the larger Germanic/Celtic wars happening all over europe for time itself.

IF THE BRITISH ARE THAT BAD WHY DOES THE COMMONWEALTH STILL EXSIST?...WHY DONT ANY OTHER COLONIAL POWERS HAVE THIS?...nope, it's because THEIR old colonies wanted shot of em as quickly as possible, we like to keep things civilised and keep friendships from round the world
 
Daz_Hockey
#29
Come on finder.....look at the dates...they are evidence enough themselves....fact is a lot of americans cand foreign national claim to be irish...so why dont you go back if you love the place so much?....why dont you?...why is there still25 thousand irish "illegals" still in the US today?....because it's a cold wet place with not much going on....sit there and claim superiority of self, go ahead, but the fact is ireland were not taken by the british alone, enough Irish profited out of our joining, it's JUST NOT THAT Clear cut
 
Finder
#30
Daz_Hockey, you take what I say slightly out of contest, but yes the British army did act like nazi's by closing a soccer arena and then using a machine gun placement to mow down the innocent spectators. I can not also forget Bloody sunday and even more innocents killed. These are just two events on the tip of my tongue which reminds me of Nazi like activies of the British in Ireland.

Please spare me, the poor UK, who jesus, the British just had to keep Ireland by force it was there god given right to.... right... Wake up call buddy, the Irish are not British we are gaulic and the occupation of Ireland was and infact in the north still wrong. Now I'm from the stock who think we can come along with a peaceful settlement like that of the peace treaty of 1921 which formed the free state which turned into the republic. But I won't stand around and allow Irish freedom fighters who fought the opressive goliath of the British government and army in Ireland.

I've already stated that I support the side in the conflic the British ultimately made a deal with and sided with in the civil war, and that I am not an IRA supporter after 1921 but the UK has no right nor claim on Irish soil.

As soon as you wake up from your dream world and relieze that the British as a colonial imperalist power was not all roses and peaches you may actual see the harm the UK did to these nations, like India and Ireland.