Is the Quran or the Bible understandable?


Torch light
#1
MHz said: the Quran is difficult for him to understand and he sees the Bible plainer and more understandable.

MHz, you are familiar with the English version of the Bible which you have studied for a considerable time so you find it plain and somewhat easy to understand .. but to other people: most of it is certainly obscure and mysterious.

The original Bible was in Hebrew and Aramaic languages .. then the original texts were lost to a serious extent, then the translations came to distort more and more about the Bible .. so as to make it acceptable by common people.

About the Quran: The Quran is in Arabic, the text is preserved and known by hearts... and in spite of this a large part of the Quran is ambiguous and mysterious and unknown to people (until God inspired the interpreter Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly to explain it to people .. and then people may not see obscurity and ambiguity in the ayat of the Quran.

God revealed the Quran as such to be a continuous miracle that will be explained later on after many centuries to know that the Quran is the word of God Most Gracious.
http://quran-ayat.com/pret/intro.php...the_similitude

Therefore, while a great part of the Quran is ambiguous and unknown to people, how can the commentators know its true implications then to translate its meaning to other languages?

But following its interpretation and the explanation of its meaning and expounding the true meaning of its ambiguous ayat, then the translation of the Quran meaning will be easier to other languages.

So what I try, is to tell the English reading people about the explanation of the Quran by the late interpreter of the Quran, and I should explain the Quran meaning as much as I can .. although I am not an English man.

Now I try to improve my English language and if God gives me life time, I may start to update the translation of the interpretation 6 months later, if God pleases, and if He wills.
 
Torch light
#2
Now if you tell some ignorant Muslims that there are many ambiguous ayat in the Quran, they will object to you and say: no, the Quran is very plain and clear!
True, the large part and the essential part of the Quran is plain, and yet there are many mysterious ayat which include puzzles.
Therefore, anyone denies this fact, let him see the interpretation of the aya 3: 7 to know about the wisdom behind revealing such ambiguous ayat of the Quran.

Quran 3: 7 ([God] is He Who has revealed to you [Mohammed] the Book [: the Quran] some of which being 'precise' ayat; they are the essence of the Book, [whereas] others being 'analogous'.

So those, in whose hearts is a deviation [from the truth]; these follow the 'analogous' [ayat] therein: seeking to seduce [people and turn them away], and seeking to interpret it.


[Therefore, God answered them:]

While none but God [only] knows its interpretation;

those – having sure knowledge – say: "We have believed in it: each [of the 'precise' and the 'analogous'] being from our Lord."

Surely, none may accept admonition save men having discerning hearts.
)

More explanation of this aya is in this link:
http://quran-ayat.com/pret/3.htm#a3_7
quran-ayat.com/pret/3.htm#a3_7
 
MHz
#3
Quote: Originally Posted by Torch light View Post

MHz said: the Quran is difficult for him to understand and he sees the Bible plainer and more understandable.

Actually I said it was easier, the reason I fond it easier is the new earth verses give a preview of 'the end of this earth and the beginning of the next one.. There isn't a lot but there are enough to show hen that begins. I'm also saying the 'rules' set down in Roman's:13 apply to all Gentiles since Peter taught a few in Acts:10. At this point I would post 6-18 verses that show all that to happen. If you have something similar please post it.
As it is I will promote what I did earlier, the original text was given by Jesus when John was still the High Priest in the same line that Moses was. Jesus was a manifestation of Christ, the one and only High Priest in the OT from Adam to Moses, again there are examples that show that was the case so on the day of the Return that High Priest is the one that will be in charge as well wearing a crown that a King would and carrying a sword that 'the Angel of Death' would carry.

Quote: Originally Posted by Torch light View Post

MHz, you are familiar with the English version of the Bible which you have studied for a considerable time so you find it plain and somewhat easy to understand .. but to other people: most of it is certainly obscure and mysterious.

That isn't what I was I was getting at. Strip away Ge:1-3 and Re:20-22 and the book is pretty much all about Ge:3:15 and the setting up and completion on those two bruises. From Adam-Moses was 'x' amount of years. From Abraham's son to the cross was 'y' amount of years. From Acts:10 (3 1/2 after the cross) until the two witnesses start is 'z' of years. The Quran should cover 'God fearing' Gentiles. Paul's letters cover that period while some of the other material covers the time the two witnesses are alive as you have people like Moses being alive as well as prayer bringing you actual protection from harm rather than it being a way to confess sins.


Quote: Originally Posted by Torch light View Post

The original Bible was in Hebrew and Aramaic languages .. then the original texts were lost to a serious extent, then the translations came to distort more and more about the Bible .. so as to make it acceptable by common people.

Have you read the preface to the 1611KJV Bible. The steps the took make it as authentic as anything based on the original Greek for the NT and the original Hebrew for the OT. If the Jews in Jerusalem could find no fault with it then state the flaws you have found. My POV is the whole Bible is meant for a certain group, the ones that will be alive to see the transition that comes with the two witnesses being called to do their 3 1/2 year Ministry.

Quote: Originally Posted by Torch light View Post

About the Quran: The Quran is in Arabic, the text is preserved and known by hearts... and in spite of this a large part of the Quran is ambiguous and mysterious and unknown to people (until God inspired the interpreter Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly to explain it to people .. and then people may not see obscurity and ambiguity in the ayat of the Quran.

If 'known by hearts' is something like 'an oral Torah' then you have introduced a flaws all by yourself. The OT was written when Daniel and 3 friends were being visited by Angels. That is what they were doing all that time.


Quote: Originally Posted by Torch light View Post

God revealed the Quran as such to be a continuous miracle that will be explained later on after many centuries to know that the Quran is the word of God Most Gracious.

What makes you think we are in that 'time'?
Quote: Originally Posted by Torch light View Post

Therefore, while a great part of the Quran is ambiguous and unknown to people, how can the commentators know its true implications then to translate its meaning to other languages?

The prophecies are quite clear, that is another point the Bible has, it has a very detailed picture and a solid timeline for the sequences.


Quote: Originally Posted by Torch light View Post

But following its interpretation and the explanation of its meaning and expounding the true meaning of its ambiguous ayat, then the translation of the Quran meaning will be easier to other languages.

It cannot be difficult and easy at the same time, if the appointed time has arrived. The 'people' that Jude covers is like it was from Adam to Noah's flood on a very short time-frame.



Quote: Originally Posted by Torch light View Post

So what I try, is to tell the English reading people about the explanation of the Quran by the late interpreter of the Quran, and I should explain the Quran meaning as much as I can .. although I am not an English man.

Perhaps you bit off more than you can chew.

If the book is to become clear to people is it not by the hand of God rather than efforts of men such as you and me? If 2/3 of all Gentiles alive will die even after having the two witnesses around does it seem at all possible that 'Priests' can change that so 1/3 dies and 2/3 are saved?? I'm thinking not.



Quote: Originally Posted by Torch light View Post

Now I try to improve my English language and if God gives me life time, I may start to update the translation of the interpretation 6 months later, if God pleases, and if He wills.

You can do that anytime, no appointment needed.
 
Cliffy
#4
Neither. They are both works of fiction based on much older texts.
 
Torch light
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by MHz View Post

Actually I said it was easier ..

Such wrangling started since long time ago, and it has not ended.

So the important thing is the basis of the heavenly religion.

The serious difference is that I invite to God, while you invite to Jesus.. and you hold Jesus with enthusiasm to the extent that you consider him as God Himself or part of God or son of God which is the idolatry against God and His religion and His commandments..

while I glorify God alone and all the rest including Moses, Jesus, Mohammed and others are only the tools of God...

Therefore, this is the fundamental and serious difference, which is explained in the Quran 3: 64, which means:
(Say [Mohammed], "People of the Bible [: Jews and Christians], come to a word a of agreement b between us and you:

that we shall worship none but God [alone
c ],

that we shall not associate anything
d with Him e,

and that none of us shall take others for lords other than God f ."

But should they turn away [from you and do not submit to God] then say
[g to them:] "Bear witness that we have submitted h [ourselves to God alone.]")
.................................................. .................................


64 a That I say to you.

64 b To make a mutual covenant.

64 c As had He commanded us by the tongue of His prophets and apostles, and as had been mentioned in the Tablets and the heavenly books.

64 d and anyone of creatures.

64 e In the worship.

64 f So that we should not worship the Christ, neither should we sanctify priests, nor monks, nor clergies; and that we should not glorify the graves of prophets, sheikhs or imams; because all of that is some kind of association with God, which God does not accept.

And When His saying – be glorified – in the Quran 9: 31 was revealed, which means:
(They have taken their rabbis and their monks as lords apart from God);
Uday son of Hatim said: "God's messenger, we do not worship them!"
So he – salam to him - said: "Don't they make [the unlawful] lawful to you and forbid you [the lawful], and you took their words?"
He said: "Yes."
[God's messenger said]: "Don't you glorify them and kiss their hands?"

He said: "Yes."

The prophet said: "That's it."

64 g i.e. Then, O Muslims, say to them in reply to their turning away:

64 h i.e. complying to that which the Prophet brings from God.

http://quran-ayat.com/pret/3.htm#a3_64
quran-ayat.com/pret/3.htm#a3_64
 
Torch light
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by Torch light View Post
Now I try to improve my English language and if God gives me life time, I may start to update the translation of the interpretation 6 months later, if God pleases, and if He wills.

Quote: Originally Posted by MHz View Post

You can do that anytime, no appointment needed.

Perhaps, more months of English reading and learning may promote my English language, and I may master the language more and more .. in order to address the common people of moderate education .. so that they may have a better understanding. Success is only granted by God Most Gracious.
 
MHz
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by Torch light View Post

Such wrangling started since long time ago, and it has not ended.

So the important thing is the basis of the heavenly religion.

The Bible is not a book that sows confusion, that would be what men do.


Quote: Originally Posted by Torch light View Post

The serious difference is that I invite to God, while you invite to Jesus..

Really? You throw out a shallow compliment and then mock my knowledge as being nothing while you knowledge is better than God's. Your ego and that of the Scribe you call Mohamed is more that God allowed Moses to promote. It kept him out of the promised land.



Quote: Originally Posted by Torch light View Post

and you hold Jesus with enthusiasm to the extent that you consider him as God Himself or part of God or son of God which is the idolatry against God and His religion and His commandments..

Not my problem, the text is pretty clear on my end.


1Co:15:27:

For he hath put all things under his feet.

But when he saith all things are put under him,

it is manifest that he is excepted,

which did put all things under him.



[QUOTE=Torch light;2776670]
while I glorify God alone and all the rest including Moses, Jesus, Mohammed and others are only the tools of God...

This is where you start sounding like a plant rather than a true believer.


M't:11:11:

Verily I say unto you,

Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist:

notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.



Quote: Originally Posted by Torch light View Post

Therefore, this is the fundamental and serious difference,

The flaw is on your end. (and I do take being called an unbeliever a bit more serious than you will like)
 
MHz
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by Torch light View Post

Quote: Originally Posted by Torch light View Post
Now I try to improve my English language and if God gives me life time, I may start to update the translation of the interpretation 6 months later, if God pleases, and if He wills.



Perhaps, more months of English reading and learning may promote my English language, and I may master the language more and more .. in order to address the common people of moderate education .. so that they may have a better understanding. Success is only granted by God Most Gracious.

Maybe God is telling you to stop. There are lots of topics you can use to help with your language issues. You just happen to choose a topic that is already in confusion to help show the Quran is gibberish. (it is the way you present it)
 
Torch light
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by MHz View Post

The flaw is on your end.

So bear witness then that I only submit myself to God alone without associate whether such associate be Jesus Christ or any other creature.
 
MHz
#10
You could have replied to the question rather than to the part that meant the least. The new earth era, what does the Quran say. Asking a Rabbi that gets you a lot of things, none of it fits anything found in the OT.
Are there some other topics that might be better suited to you practicing English rather than 'God's role in the world as we know it?' As it stands I'm waiting for you to post something that is logical and found in the Quran. If you cannot do that it means the book is strange to you or it doesn't suit your purpose.

The 'radicals' just happen to be the ones the US (and her boss) have had the most connection with. The War in Afghanistan started with Jimmy Carter sending in the CIA goons that also remade Iran during the years between 1953-1979 in an image worse than the KSA has ever been. At that time (1976) the 'moderates had almost exterminated the 'hard-liners' and they made a comeback with the help of the USA. The 'remnant' of them was known as 'the Northern Alliance' when 9/11 went down. The first act made by the 'West' was to kill the leader in a bomb packet into a news camera. That helped the 'Taliban' a lot more than it hurt them.
You seem to be lacking that part of history as well as Iran just before the 1953 coup.

Anyway, the 7 letters have 14 relationships a person can have with God. 7 good ones will see those people survive the 7 vials, the 7 bad ones are why they die in those few hours. There is not a Gentile on the planet that is not covered by that verse.
You say 'Jesus was just a Prophet', that means the reference material does not cover anything after John the Baptist was the High Priest of God. By your own lip you have condemned yourself to punishment rather than any reward.

The previous verses are important as they are Christ's witness of creation as well as the wisdom He has that makes Him alone the perfect Judge because it is based on Him being the star witness.
Heb:7:1:
For this Melchisedec,
king of Salem,
priest of the most high God,
who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings,
and blessed him;
Heb:7:3:
Without father,
without mother,
without descent,
having neither beginning of days,
nor end of life;
but made like unto the Son of God;
abideth a priest continually.
Proverb:8:31-36:
Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth;
and my delights were with the sons of men.
Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children:
for blessed are they that keep my ways.
Hear instruction,
and be wise,
and refuse it not.
Blessed is the man that heareth me,
watching daily at my gates,
waiting at the posts of my doors.
For whoso findeth me findeth life,
and shall obtain favour of the LORD.
But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul:
all they that hate me love death.
 
Cliffy
#11
 
Torch light
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by MHz View Post

You could have replied to the question rather than to the part that meant the least. The new earth era, what does the Quran say.

The new earth and new heaven will exist, after Doomsday.

In the coming Doomsday, our earth together with the rest of the planets and their moons in addition to the sun .. i.e. the entire present solar system will explode and tear up.

Then God will create another earth and other heavens.

This is explained in the book The Universe and the Quran, by the interpreter of the Quran and the Bible: Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly: the apostle of the Christ.

See here about the creation of a new earth and new heavens:
http://www.quran-ayat.com/universe/n...he_New_Planets
quran-ayat.com/universe/new_page_4.htm#Formation_of_the_New_Planets
Last edited by Torch light; 4 weeks ago at 03:43 PM..
 
Torch light
#13
There is a promise from God Most Gracious that He will in the future let the righteous inherit the earth (to rule with justice and equity among people and to worship God alone without associate or son or parents)

These righteous people who will inherit the earth (following the destruction of its people!) will be the companions of the Mahdi (Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly) who invited people to worship God alone without associate or son or peer..

i.e. the Mahdi (and his companions the worshipers of God alone without associate) will rule the earth and deal with its people with justice and equity.

There is a promise from God Most Gracious that He will in the future let the righteous inherit the earth (to rule with justice and equity among people and to worship God alone without associate or son or parents)

Among these righteous people who will inherit the earth (following the destruction of its people!) will be the companions of the Mahdi (Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly) who invited people to worship God alone without associate or son or peer.

This is in the Quran 21: 105-106, which mean:
(105. We have written in the Psalms after [writing] the admonition: "My righteous servants a shall inherit the earth."

106. Surely, in this [writing in the Psalms] is an 'announcement' to a people who worship [God, and are righteous.])

http://quran-ayat.com/pret/21.htm#a21_105
quran-ayat.com/pret/21.htm#a21_105
 
Torch light
#14
Comment:
All heavenly books invite people to worship God alone and that all creatures are His servants .. but Christians have innovated a serious thing when they claimed Jesus Christ was the son of God!

Here, I recall that in the Pre-Islam era, the pagan Arab said: No god together with God .. because they inherited that from their fathers Ishmael and Abraham who built the House of God at Mecca.

So the pagan Arab said:
"God is only One God without associate with the exception of an associate who is owned by God"
.. they meant a god with its statue whom they called Hobal ..

so this is something similar to the claim of Christians which is only a Satan's suggestion.
Last edited by Torch light; 4 weeks ago at 03:40 PM..
 
MHz
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by Torch light View Post

The new earth and new heaven will exist, after Doomsday.

That would make it after the end of the Great White Throne event then as Jesus sends a few fallen angels to the fiery lake just before the 1,000 year reign begins. God sends many, many, many times more than that. The 1,000 years is a time of education so the people alive for that era do not get sent to the lake with the fallen angels. The 24 Elders in Re:4 will sit on thrones during that time.
Mal:4:5-6:
Behold,
I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children,
and the heart of the children to their fathers,
lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
When that task is completed all the people leave this earth and go to the location of the Great White Throne event. A place outside of the earth and the universe.
2Co:12:2:
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago,
(whether in the body,
I cannot tell;
or whether out of the body,
I cannot tell:
God knoweth
such an one caught up to the third heaven.
Heb:12:22-23:
But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Angels never leave that place and they can be given in marriage and they will have a single child. God and the Holy Spirit are the model for Adam and Eve in Ge:1, they were created as a married couple. Adam born as the first event of the 6th day and Eve was the last event of that day. That leaves the universe as 'a land without a people' as mankind will fill it up with live during the new earth era.

Quote: Originally Posted by Torch light View Post

In the coming Doomsday, our earth together with the rest of the planets and their moons in addition to the sun .. i.e. the entire present solar system will explode and tear up.

The rocks on the earth melt, it is that same way when New Jerusalem lands at the end of Re:22. The earth is a polished ball and outside the walls of New Jerusalem will be the 'courtyard' and that is what the rest of the earth will be like. Each persom saved at the Great White Throme event will start off with a galaxy to create a nation from.

Quote: Originally Posted by Torch light View Post

Then God will create another earth and other heavens.

What was created is renamed and made bigger rather than anything new can be created after Ge:1 ended.

Quote: Originally Posted by Torch light View Post

This is explained in the book The Universe and the Quran, by the interpreter of the Quran and the Bible: Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly: the apostle of the Christ.

No thanks.

Quote: Originally Posted by Torch light View Post

See here about the creation of a new earth and new heavens:
http://www.quran-ayat.com/universe/n...he_New_Planets
quran-ayat.com/universe/new_page_4.htm#Formation_of_the_New_Planets

No thanks.
 
MHz
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by Torch light View Post

There is a promise from God Most Gracious that He will in the future let the righteous inherit the earth (to rule with justice and equity among people and to worship God alone without associate or son or parents)

These righteous people who will inherit the earth (following the destruction of its people!) will be the companions of the Mahdi (Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly) who invited people to worship God alone without associate or son or peer..

Christ and the 24 Elders train all the people alive at the end of the same day the two witnesses are resurrected on how life works in a sinless earth. If they fail they would be sent to the fiery lake with Satan. Jesus makes sure none are found to be sinners. If God showed up at the start of the 1,000 years there would be no people left alive.
 
MHz
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by Torch light View Post

Comment:
All heavenly books invite people to worship God alone and that all creatures are His servants .. but Christians have innovated a serious thing when they claimed Jesus Christ was the son of God!

Here, I recall that in the Pre-Islam era, the pagan Arab said: No god together with God .. because they inherited that from their fathers Ishmael and Abraham who built the House of God at Mecca.

So the pagan Arab said:
"God is only One God without associate with the exception of an associate who is owned by God"
.. they meant a god with its statue whom they called Hobal ..

so this is something similar to the claim of Christians which is only a Satan's suggestion.

Christ's witness of creation to go along with that of God in Ge:1 and the Holy Spirit as seen through the eyes of Adam on the 6thy day.

Proverb:8:23-31:
I was set up from everlasting,
from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
When there were no depths,
I was brought forth;
when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Before the mountains were settled,
before the hills was I brought forth:
While as yet he had not made the earth,
nor the fields,
nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
When he prepared the heavens,
I was there:
when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
When he established the clouds above:
when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
When he gave to the sea his decree,
that the waters should not pass his commandment:
when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Then I was by him,
as one brought up with him:
and I was daily his delight,
rejoicing always before him;
Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth;
and my delights were with the sons of men.
 
Torch light
#18
These are distorted texts [and then translated which increased their distortion].. not the original, particularly the Book of Genesis, which is full of flaws and faults and lies.

Therefore, the prudent and wise man should not rely on such distorted books to make his own belief contrary to the First Commandment..

when even Jesus Christ and the rest of prophets and apostles will disown him.

This will be so difficult for one used and accustomed to such doctrines, ... unless God guides him to the correct 'submission to God alone without associate, peer or son' or else he will lose completely.
Last edited by Torch light; 4 weeks ago at 03:59 AM..
 
Torch light
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by MHz View Post

No thanks.
No thanks.

(Therefore they disbelieved [in the messengers], and turned away [from accepting the invitation to God alone.]

But God was in no need of their worship; for God is All-Sufficient, All-Laudable.
)
 
MHz
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by Torch light View Post

These are distorted texts [and then translated which increased their distortion].. not the original, particularly the Book of Genesis, which is full of flaws and faults and lies.

That is all bullshit fromk your side in a vain attempt to find a flaw in the Bible as it 'might' make your version more authentic. It doesn't show that at all, what it shows is you are standing on wobbly ground. I'm not on wobbly ground on any subject, especially the Bible.

Quote: Originally Posted by Torch light View Post

Therefore, the prudent and wise man should not rely on such distorted books to make his own belief contrary to the First Commandment..

Fear God is the first commandment. Calling Him a liar is hardly keeping that Law.

Quote: Originally Posted by Torch light View Post

when even Jesus Christ and the rest of prophets and apostles will disown him.

You have no idea who God is and your replies do nothing at all to show you are an actual Muslim rather than being a plant to make Muslims look stupid. Christians took that path in support of the Jewish Money-changers. Jesus get that part wrong too??

Quote: Originally Posted by Torch light View Post

This will be so difficult for one used and accustomed to such doctrines, ... unless God guides him to the correct 'submission to God alone without associate, peer or son' or else he will lose completely.

You don't think God could keep His message intact?? Pretty weak God in your version.

Isa:42:9:
Behold,
the former things are come to pass,
and new things do I declare:
before they spring forth I tell you of them.
Last edited by MHz; 4 weeks ago at 10:07 AM..
 
MHz
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by Torch light View Post

(Therefore they disbelieved [in the messengers], and turned away [from accepting the invitation to God alone.]

But God was in no need of their worship; for God is All-Sufficient, All-Laudable.
)

What part of being my being a Christian are you missing? I don't reject God, I reject your version and I reject the Jewsish version and I reject the false Christian version.

I can explain God a lot better than you can on your own or with your convoluted quotes from an ancient that was without God, like the Jews who caused the exile into Babylon.
 
AnnaEmber
+1
#22  Top Rated Post
Popular chant since humans developed cognition: "I don't understand what happened, therefore a [pick a god] did it". lol
It's rather striking that people would adopt the idea of those unsophisticated, superstitious, relatively ignorant primitives from thousands of years ago in religious philosophies without objectively questioning the nonsense.
 
Cliffy
+1
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by AnnaEmber View Post

Popular chant since humans developed cognition: "I don't understand what happened, therefore a [pick a god] did it". lol
It's rather striking that people would adopt the idea of those unsophisticated, superstitious, relatively ignorant primitives from thousands of years ago in religious philosophies without objectively questioning the nonsense.

Or from Jungle Book: The Monkey Tribe - “We are great. We are free. We are wonderful. We are the most wonderful people in all the jungle! We all say so, and so it must be true,” they shouted.
 
Torch light
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by MHz View Post

What part of being my being a Christian are you missing? I don't reject God, I reject your version and I reject the Jewsish version and I reject the false Christian version.

So tell us clearly about God and Jesus Christ: according to your belief because till now your idea is obscure to me:

Is Jesus a partner or an associate with God in the universe?
Is Jesus Christ the son of God? by birth or by adoption?
Or is God the same Jesus Christ? Is Jesus Christ the same God Himself?
Or is God a part of three in Trinity, with Jesus as another part in such Trinity?
Was Jesus Christ a god from the start, or did he become god following the crucifying?

Was Jesus Christ a mortal who came down from heaven to earth, then he ascended as god?
Or was Jesus Christ a god who came down from heaven and then ascended as god?
Last edited by Torch light; 3 weeks ago at 05:16 AM..
 
Cliffy
#25
 
MHz
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by Torch light View Post

So tell us clearly about God and Jesus Christ: according to your belief because till now your idea is obscure to me:

Why try and put the blame for that on me when I have posted a few threads where the topic is something from the Bible. If you chose not to ask any questions about what I was promoting (and not) then that is your problem rather than mine. This post is a troll post that is meant to show the Bible is a book of confusion. This will show how little you know about the Bible and that shed light on how much you claim to know about the Quran

Quote: Originally Posted by Torch light View Post

Is Jesus a partner or an associate with God in the universe?

God and His wife, the Holy Spirit spoke the universe into existence in Ge:1 as an inheritance for their only child, Christ.

Quote: Originally Posted by Torch light View Post

Is Jesus Christ the son of God? by birth or by adoption?

What does 'begat' mean??

Quote: Originally Posted by Torch light View Post

Or is God the same Jesus Christ?

Are you the same person as your father? Is your father the same person as your Grandfather. Who are the 4 Beasts around the Throne in Re:4 other than the parents of God and the Holy Spirit. That makes them Christ's grandparents.

Quote: Originally Posted by Torch light View Post

Is Jesus Christ the same God Himself?

Don't ask stupid questions as it shows you have a low IQ when there is a simple answer to your idiotic question.
1Co:15:27:
For he hath put all things under his feet.
But when he saith all things are put under him,
it is manifest that he is excepted,
which did put all things under him.

Quote: Originally Posted by Torch light View Post

Or is God a part of three in Trinity, with Jesus as another part in such Trinity?

There are only 3 beings that currently call the 3rd heaven home (Angel's promised new heaven will change that and the perfected angels will be given in marriage and have a single perfected child and a new universe will be spoken into existence as an inheritance for that child. Christ found Mary of Bethany, she will be His wife at the start of the New earth. She will be perfected at the end of that era and when she calls the 3rd heaven home they will have a child that is born perfected like Christ was.)
2Co:12:2:
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago,
(whether in the body,
I cannot tell;
or whether out of the body,
I cannot tell:
God knoweth
such an one caught up to the third heaven.
Heb:12:22:
But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
1Jo:5:7:
For there are three that bear record in heaven,
the Father,
the Word,
and the Holy Ghost:
and these three are one.

Quote: Originally Posted by Torch light View Post

Was Jesus Christ a god from the start,

He was a perfected child who was a witness to all of Ge:1. He was the only High Priest on earth between Adam and Moses. When you fail to take bits like this into your reply you become a troll, you understand that Right??
Proverb:8:22-31:
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way,
before his works of old.
I was set up from everlasting,
from the beginning,
or ever the earth was.
When there were no depths,
I was brought forth;
when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Before the mountains were settled,
before the hills was I brought forth:
While as yet he had not made the earth,
nor the fields,
nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
When he prepared the heavens,
I was there:
when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
When he established the clouds above:
when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
When he gave to the sea his decree,
that the waters should not pass his commandment:
when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Then I was by him,
as one brought up with him:
and I was daily his delight,
rejoicing always before him;
Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth;
and my delights were with the sons of men.

Quote: Originally Posted by Torch light View Post

or did he become god following the crucifying?

Christ completed the bruise to the heel from Ge:3:15. That is what He was referencing when He said, 'It is finished.' moments before He died. When He says, 'It is done.' as He pours out the 7th vial He is referencing all things to do with the bruise to Satan's head.

Quote: Originally Posted by Torch light View Post

Was Jesus Christ a mortal who came down from heaven to earth,

Heb:7:1:
For this Melchisedec,
king of Salem,
priest of the most high God,
who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings,
and blessed him;
Heb:7:3:
Without father,
without mother,
without descent,
having neither beginning of days,
nor end of life;
but made like unto the Son of God;
abideth a priest continually.

Quote: Originally Posted by Torch light View Post

then he ascended as god?

He ascended as an immortal man. All people will go through that same process. A glorified body is an immortal one, you will go to the fiery lake when you sin when you are an immortal. (rather than the grave)

Quote: Originally Posted by Torch light View Post

Or was Jesus Christ a god who came down from heaven and then ascended as god?

All beings in the 3rd heaven are perfected beings, just like God from Ge:1:1.
 
Torch light
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by MHz View Post

God and His wife, the Holy Spirit spoke the universe into existence in Ge:1 as an inheritance for their only child, Christ.

What can I say to you, and you bear such thinking and ideology .. how can I reply to you .. what words can I utter ..

Therefore, for this reason, have Europe and the West rejected the religion as a whole.. it is because of your extreme error .. and all this depending only on texts without reason or mind.

There will be nothing more than the Quran to falsify all such enthusiasm and error (which is worse than the idolatry of idolaters)

So for those who seek after the truth, read the explanation of God's words in the Quran, soora 112, which means:

Soora 112

[Christians said that God is three: a father, a son and a Holy Ghost; therefore, this soora was revealed in reply to them:]

(In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful)

1. Say [O Mohammed to those Christians who believe in the Trinity]:
"He is God, One [but not three whom you claim to be one.]"
a

2. "God is Eternal [and Invariable.]" b

3. "Who never begot [anyone], nor was He ever begotten."

[Then He confirmed that by His saying – be glorified:]
4. "And none [of creatures] is like to Him [in managing the universe.]" c )
.................................................. ............................

1 a It means those three whom you consider as one: the first is God – be glorified; while the second is the Christ who is God’s messenger, and not his son as do you claim. And the Holy Ghost is Gabriel who is one of the angels and a messenger to the prophets.

2 b Concerning His attributes, and He never changes.

That is because they claim that God is a spirit, and this spirit came down from heaven and entered the body of the Christ after the crucifixion, so he arose from the grave and went up to heaven. Therefore, He consists of the body of the Christ and the spirit of God. And so they call him: the Holy Ghost.

So that by their saying ‘father’ they mean the first One [of the three] that is the Eternal, and by the ‘son’ they mean the Christ before his death, and by the ‘Holy Ghost’ they mean the final who became consisted of a body and a spirit according to their claim; and they said: The three are one.

Therefore, God objected to them by His saying that: (God is Eternal [and Invariable]), i.e. He is Unchangeable concerning His attributes; He does not change, and does not enter into a human body as do they claim, neither does He give birth so that He may have any son as do they imagine.

4 c It means: none of creatures may stand instead of Him in managing the universe: neither any angel, nor the Christ nor anyone else; because they only are created beings, and any created being is unable to manage the affairs of creatures.

http://quran-ayat.com/pret/112.htm#a112_1
quran-ayat.com/pret/112.htm#a112_1
 
Torch light
#28
I recall this tale of a Muslim who traveled abroad and met a German and wrangled with him about God.. then the German laughed and asked the Muslim: Are you a Mohammedan?
He said: Yes.
The German said: You have mistaken my idea.. in fact I believe in your same God the Creator, but I disbelieve in the god whom they claim coming down from heaven, then crucified then ascended once again as god to heaven.

Therefore, it is such non-logical and non-reasonable thinking that made people disown the religion as a whole ..
while their only argument is derived from books that have been distorted and altered by time and by devils among mankind like kings and priests and by translation from a language to another.
 
Cliffy
#29
This is hilarious: two grown men arguing over whose work of fiction is more real. You guys crack me up. Neither of you know the history of your books.
 
Torch light
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy View Post

This is hilarious: two grown men arguing over whose work of fiction is more real. You guys crack me up. Neither of you know the history of your books.

No need to reply to your words .. enough that people only look to your picture to know what devil you are.
 

Similar Threads

17
Amazing story in the Bible and the Quran
by Torch light | Jun 7th, 2018
15
The Quran surpasses the Bible
by Torch light | Feb 3rd, 2018
5
The admonition in the Quran
by selfsame | Feb 5th, 2017
162
Astronomy and the quran
by eanassir | Oct 3rd, 2007