UK Gov In Turmoil & Bexit Mess.


Ocean Breeze
Free Thinker
#511

Parliament denies Boris Johnson support for fast-tracked Brexit deal, making it unlikely that Britain will leave E.U. by Oct. 31


The vote was a major political defeat for the prime minister.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...ational&wpmk=1
 
Serryah
Free Thinker
#512
Quote: Originally Posted by Ocean Breeze View Post


Parliament denies Boris Johnson support for fast-tracked Brexit deal, making it unlikely that Britain will leave E.U. by Oct. 31


The vote was a major political defeat for the prime minister.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...ational&wpmk=1


Unlikely, unless BoJo ignores it all and goes with no deal.
 
Blackleaf
#513
Quote: Originally Posted by Ocean Breeze View Post


Parliament denies Boris Johnson support for fast-tracked Brexit deal, making it unlikely that Britain will leave E.U. by Oct. 31

The vote was a major political defeat for the prime minister.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...ational&wpmk=1

Funny how they can unconstitutionally and undemocratically fast-track anti-Brexit legislation like the Benn Act but can't find the wherewithal to fast-track the Withdrawal Agreement.

The vast majority of those 84% of MPs who were elected on mandates to deliver Brexit are just oblivious to the severe punishment that votes will dish out to them in the next election. They just can't see it.
Last edited by Blackleaf; 3 weeks ago at 04:17 PM..
 
Blackleaf
#514
So it looks like Boris is going to push for an election again, one that he'll win in a landslide and one which would give us a Leaver Parliament.
 
Curious Cdn
Conservative
#515
Quote: Originally Posted by Blackleaf View Post

So it looks like Boris is going to push for an election again, one that he'll win in a landslide and one which would give us a Leaver Parliament.

Yadda-yadda
 
Hoid
#516
it would be a lot simpler to have another referendum
 
Blackleaf
#517
Quote: Originally Posted by Hoid View Post

it would be a lot simpler to have another referendum

Why? We'll only vote to leave again.

What would be simpler is if MPs actually respected the result of the referendum instead of acting like overgrown children just because most don't like the result.

Still, the upside is that most of them will be having to take trips down to their local labour exchange very soon - an it'll be entirely deserved.

If I spent three years ****ing up a job and not doing as I was ordered to do I'd be fired. Hundreds of MPs will soon be fired for the same thing.

Remainer MPs seem to have forgotten that, sooner or later, they will have to face their constituents and that because most constituents are Leave supporting there's going to be a lot of bloodshed. They just don't seem to have realised it yet.
Last edited by Blackleaf; 3 weeks ago at 06:37 PM..
 
Ocean Breeze
Free Thinker
#518
Quote: Originally Posted by Blackleaf View Post

Why? We'll only vote to leave again.

What would be simpler is if MPs actually respected the result of the referendum instead of acting like overgrown children just because most don't like the result.

Still, the upside is that most of them will be having to take trips down to their local labour exchange very soon - an it'll be entirely deserved.

If I spent three years ****ing up a job and do doing as I was ordered to do I'd be fired. Hundreds of MPs will soon be fired for the same thing.

are you sure???? That another referendum would yield the results you think they would??
 
Blackleaf
#519
Quote: Originally Posted by Ocean Breeze View Post

are you sure???? That another referendum would yield the results you think they would??

I think Leave would win by an even greater margin.

And what makes YOU so sure that a second referendum in which we vote Remain would be the end of the matter? Brexiteers might then force a third one, just like they forced the first.

Anyway, there's not going to be a second referendum. Not only would it be undemocratic (obviously) but the Commons has already voted against such a thing earlier this year and as Speaker Bercow reminded us yesterday he doesn't like the Commons to vote on the same thing more than once.

There won't be a second referendum. There's just going to be Brexit.
 
Curious Cdn
Conservative
#520
Quote: Originally Posted by Blackleaf View Post

I think Leave would win by an even greater margin.
And what makes YOU so sure that a second referendum in which we vote Remain would be the end of the matter? Brexiteers might then force a third one, just like they forced the first.
Anyway, there's not going to be a second referendum. Not only would it be undemocratic (obviously) but the Commons has already voted against such a thing earlier this year and as Speaker Bercow reminded us yesterday he doesn't like the Commons to vote on the same thing more than once.
There won't be a second referendum. There's just going to be Brexit.

So why are you afraid of a second referendum?
 
Blackleaf
#521
Quote: Originally Posted by Curious Cdn View Post

So why are you afraid of a second referendum?

How many times do I have to tell you that a second referendum is profoundly undemocratic?

It's not that I'm scared of a second referendum. It's just that - shock, horror - in a democracy I expect the result of the referendum to be carried out by our servants in Parliament rather than a second referendum being held just because they don't like the result of the first. That's not how it's supposed to work in a democracy.

Funny that I have to explain to you how democracies are supposed to work.
 
Curious Cdn
Conservative
#522
Quote: Originally Posted by Blackleaf View Post

How many times do I have to tell you that a second referendum is profoundly undemocratic?
It's not that I'm scared of a second referendum. It's just that - shock, horror - in a democracy I expect the result of the referendum to be carried out by our servants in Parliament rather than a second referendum being held just because they don't like the result of the first. That's not how it's supposed to work in a democracy.
Funny that I have to explain to you how democracies are supposed to work.

No. YOU say that it's not democratic. That's about as believable as a Trump.
 
Blackleaf
#523
By the way, the Commons voted 329 to 299 in favour of Boris's deal tonight, but they don't want him to rush it through.

Funny how they are always willing to rush through anti-Brexit legislation, though.
 
Blackleaf
#524
Quote: Originally Posted by Curious Cdn View Post

No. YOU say that it's not democratic. That's about as believable as a Trump.

What? You think ignoring a referendum result and holding a second in the hope we will then vote the "right" way is democratic, do you?

Maybe that's how you do things in Canada but I like to to thing that Great Britain doesn't put up with undemocratic shenanigans.
 
Blackleaf
#525
STEPHEN GLOVER: The stage is now set for a general election Boris Johnson CAN win

After last night’s debacle, some will say that things have gone from bad to worse. I don’t believe they have. Even if it’s not possible to predict every step by which Boris Johnson will deliver Brexit and vanquish Labour, I’m increasingly confident that he will.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...hnson-win.html
 
Ocean Breeze
Free Thinker
#526
Quote: Originally Posted by Curious Cdn View Post

So why are you afraid of a second referendum?

It might be fear of a massive change of opinion in the population after all these YEATS of messy ineffectiveness....in getting the Brexit thing done. Folks are a lot ore aware of what it would take and what they might lose............

Don't think there is a limit on referendums........and if the people want one..........it would be undemocratic not to have one.

Some might be afraid of the "gamble" aspect of it.
 
Tecumsehsbones
#527
Messy ineffectiveness is as English as pig-innards pie!
 
Hoid
#528
Quote: Originally Posted by Curious Cdn View Post

So why are you afraid of a second referendum?

because they would lose.
 
Blackleaf
#529
Quote: Originally Posted by Hoid View Post

because they would lose.

Not according to a recent poll, the biggest since the referendum. It shows greater support of Brexit than in the referendum.
 
Hoid
#530
Quote: Originally Posted by Blackleaf View Post

Not according to a recent poll, the biggest since the referendum. It shows greater support of Brexit than in the referendum.

https://scramnews.com/latest-second-...head-of-leave/

That would be quite a change from every other poll over the last many months that consistently show remain far ahead.

I have to think you are simply lying as is your wont.
 
Blackleaf
#531
Quote: Originally Posted by Hoid View Post

https://scramnews.com/latest-second-...head-of-leave/
That would be quite a change from every other poll over the last many months that consistently show remain far ahead.
I have to think you are simply lying as is your wont.

Polls consistently showed Remain ahead for weeks in the run-up to the referendum - and they lost.
 
Hoid
#532
Quote: Originally Posted by Blackleaf View Post

Polls consistently showed Remain ahead for weeks in the run-up to the referendum - and they lost.

that is different than polls say remain loses.
 
Blackleaf
#533
Quote: Originally Posted by Hoid View Post

that is different than polls say remain loses.

Remain will lose in another referendum - the despicable actions of our childish, undemocratic, MPs have only hardened support for Brexit.
 
Hoid
#534
I feel brexit won the fist referendum because the loonies were all fired up and the normal people maybe did not appreciate that.

Now everyone understands how important it is for them to vote.

Next referendum would be a far greater turnout and a remain decision.

That's why leavers are fighting for their lives to prevent a 2nd referendum

That's why they even prefer a general election
 
Blackleaf
#535
Quote: Originally Posted by Hoid View Post

I feel brexit won the fist referendum because the loonies were all fired up and the normal people maybe did not appreciate that.
Now everyone understands how important it is for them to vote.
Next referendum would be a far greater turnout and a remain decision.
That's why leavers are fighting for their lives to prevent a 2nd referendum
That's why they even prefer a general election

What's loony about wanting freedom, independence and sovereignty for your country?

And there isn't going to be a second referendum. Not only is such a thing profoundly undemocratic but the Commons has already voted against having one.
 
Blackleaf
#536
Remain Parliament Betray British Democracy As Brexiteers Prepare To March In Westminster

As Boris Johnson got his Brexit deal passed in Parliament, at the same time he lost the vote on his timetable as Remainer MPs blocked it. Now, we wait for the EU to see what happens with Brexit extension. There is still a way for Boris to deliver Brexit on 31st October and then call a general election. Nigel Farage and the Brexit Party are also preparing for election.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oyiPaBnYKqk
 
Cannuck
No Party Affiliation
#537
Seriously, why are Brexiters so dishonest
 
Curious Cdn
Conservative
#538
Quote: Originally Posted by Cannuck View Post

Seriously, why are Brexiters so dishonest

For the same reason that Trumpites are dishonest. They ain't too bright.
 
Blackleaf
#539
What those economic forecasts really say about Brexit


Forecasting is unreliable at the best of times. But even so, people are seriously misrepresenting the numbers.

ROB LYONS
COLUMNIST
24th October 2019
Spiked



Boris Johnson’s revised EU Withdrawal Agreement (WA) is, for many people, an improvement on the version that Theresa May failed to get through parliament earlier this year. Many hardcore Leavers have said that, while imperfect, the deal is tolerable, while others think that in political and legal terms it is far too similar to May’s ‘vassal state’ deal. Remainers and ‘neutral’ observers, meanwhile, all seem to agree on one thing: that the WA will leave the UK worse off economically.

Many have used the government’s own forecasts to argue that economic gloom lies ahead. But few seem to have understood what these forecasts actually say. For instance, on Sky News last Sunday, former home secretary Amber Rudd said that ‘Our government’s own assessments are that this will hurt the economy by four to six per cent per year. So it’s serious stuff. But I still think it’s the right thing to do because we had the referendum in 2016.’

Actually, those estimates are for a period of 15 years. What’s more, the estimates do not suggest that GDP would fall by four to six per cent, but rather that GDP would be four to six per cent lower than it would otherwise be in 15 years’ time.

Let’s be generous and say Rudd misspoke. But she wasn’t alone in claiming the government’s own figures showed the WA would hurt. Chuka Umunna, spokesperson for whatever party he’s a member of this week, claimed: ‘The government’s own research says that Boris Johnson’s Brexit proposals would lead to a 6.7 per cent drop in GDP and 6.4 per cent drop in real wages – the kind of hit to the economy experienced in the financial crash.’

Let’s be clear what those forecasts are actually suggesting. If the economy grew by an average of two per cent each year (optimistic, by recent standards), then after 15 years it would be roughly 34 per cent larger. If the various estimates noted by Rudd and Umunna are correct, then the growth would be a little lower and the economy in 15 years’ time might ‘only’ be somewhere between 27 to 32 per cent larger than it is today.

As an excellent summary on FullFact points out, to compare Johnson’s deal to the fallout from the crash is utterly misleading. The financial crash led to an economic crisis in which absolute GDP fell sharply within a few months by about six per cent and real wages after inflation took years to recover. There is a world of difference between a major recession like the crash and the economy not growing quite as much as we had hoped.

Actually, even these estimates should be treated with caution. Whether it is the Treasury, academics or think tanks making them, predictions are difficult, especially about the future. All we can do is take economic models, throw in some starting data and assumptions, and hope for the best. Given that these economic models haven’t got a great track record when it comes to guessing the size of the economy in 12 months time – let alone in 15 years’ time – all we can really say is that all other things being equal, we might expect a small dent in economic performance if the UK opts for a free-trade arrangement with the EU instead of full EU membership.

That said, the devil is in the detail. One glaring assumption in the more pessimistic forecasts is that the UK will have net-zero immigration from the European Economic Area (EEA) ̶ that is, as many people leaving as entering the UK from the EU plus Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway. Of course, immigration may well be lower than if we had EU/EEA ‘free movement’. It follows that there will be less economic activity and therefore a lower GDP. But barely anyone has argued for ‘net zero’ immigration, even if lowering the rate of net migration is a policy shared by many of the big parties. What’s more, lower GDP as a result of lower net migration is not a great concern. The wealth of the economy per person is much more important than how much the economy is worth in total.

Other important aspects are productivity and trade. As the government’s long-term economic assessment noted in November 2018:

‘Trade can increase productivity, a key driver of economic growth, by exposing firms to competition, best practice, new technologies and through investment. This can contribute to higher wages, employment and households’ living standards.’

If we increase barriers to trade, then productivity should fall as domestic firms face less competition. So that report suggests, for example, that the switch to a free-trade agreement would cost 1.2 percentage points of GDP as a result of these investment and productivity effects.

But what if the government acts to increase competition in other ways? For example, if the UK leaves the EU Customs Union, we could lower tariffs on goods coming from other parts of the world. We can remove ‘non-tariff’ barriers – that is, relax regulations to allow in more goods from the rest of the world. These decisions will be in the UK government’s hands after we leave. It is by no means certain that the costs assumed by the various forecasters will actually be imposed. It may be the case that some costs increase but others fall.

More importantly, as Phil Mullan noted earlier this week on spiked, the UK’s productivity problem is longstanding and has nothing to do with our membership, or not, of the EU. Rather, it is a problem of profitability resulting from failures of UK economic policy, whether it is extremely lax monetary policy or the sustaining of debt-encumbered ‘zombie’ businesses. There is much we can do to boost the UK economy and leaving the EU could very well make such policies easier to enact.

In any event, there are higher principles at stake here when it comes to Brexit than a few decimal points of GDP. In the past, people have fought bloody and expensive wars for greater democracy and sovereignty, from the English Civil War and the American War of Independence through to the great anti-colonial struggles of the 20th century and to the Kurds and others battling in Syria today. Historians estimate, for example, that 3.6 per cent of the population of England died in the Civil War. Relatively speaking, a worst-case loss of 0.4 per cent of GDP per year for the next decade and a half looks like an absolute bargain. And the true cost of Brexit with a free-trade deal will probably be much less. Even the costs of a ‘No Deal’ Brexit have been hugely overblown.

So while economic assessments are not unimportant, the truth is the EU really isn’t crucial to the UK’s economy. Scare stories about the economy are not a proper basis for preventing Brexit. Now can we please just get on with it?

Rob Lyons is science and technology director at the Academy of Ideas and a spiked columnist.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/1...-about-brexit/
 
Ocean Breeze
Free Thinker
#540

U.K. Prime Minister Boris Johnson, frustrated in his Brexit push, says he will ask for a Dec. 12 election


Johnson said that if lawmakers want more time to scrutinize his Brexit deal, ��they can have it, but they have to agree to a general election on Dec. 12.�� He would need two-thirds support in Parliament for an election to be set. His last push for an election was rejected.

source: WAPO