Immigrant Assimilation


DasFX
#1
As the prodigy of visible minority immigrants, I've seen first hand the struggles that new immigrants face. Torn between a society in the old country and a new foreign society, many are often left with a difficult decision. Do I assimilate or do I remain true to my roots. Many things skew immigrants to chose the latter, the feeling of not belonging, perceived racism, not being knowledgeable about the language, culture and society, however I think it is the wrong choice.

As you possibly can tell, my parents chose the former, they chose to embrace Canada and all it's people. The first thing I think they did right was that they didn't move to an Indian enclave, the first lived in an area quite diverse. This was helpful as it forced my parents to improve their English, they learned about different cultures, got to try different foods, etc. After that, when all their Indian friends headed to Brampton (Bramladesh), they headed to Pickering. From there they raised us in mainstream society, not forgetting the past, but knowing that our future was here in Canada.

So many immigrants, in my opinion, try to re-create the old country here. They never learn the language (well) and therefore are forced to interact with "their own kind" only. Many people call me and my sisters "Coconuts". (Brown on the outside, white in the middle) but I don't care. I have not betrayed India, I was born here, and I grew up here. I have no loyalty to India. That being said, I still know a lot about it, I know about the culture, religion, language and traditions of my parent's homeland, but I also know the same about my homeland.

Today's immigrants have a different view. They come here with unreal expectations, and when things don't go right they usually play the racism card. The congregate and cluster in ghettos of their own people and expect society and Canada to accomodate them rather than the other way around.

This is a touchy subject and that's why I brought it up!
 
Jay
#2
Gee I can't imagine who made that a touchy subject.

Since there are so many people of the politicaly correct left around here, there is no sense in even discussing the subject.
 
DasFX
#3
Quote: Originally Posted by Jay

Gee I can't imagine who made that a touchy subject.

Since there are so many people of the politicaly correct left around here, there is no sense in even discussing the subject.

What are you insinuating? I didn't make it touchy. Left, right, it is all so stupid. I'm stay to the centre, although my path may veer left or right sometimes.
 
Jay
#4
"What are you insinuating? I didn't make it touchy."


Not you Das, I didn't mean to imply that.

Anyone who even dares raise any dissatisfaction in Canada about immigration is labeled instantly. Its part of the diversity "program" we have.
 
Nosferax
#5
I'm slightly to the left of the center and I do find problem with the immigration sytem here in Canada.

The principal problem is that the system permit the concentration of the newly arrived in the big center like Toronto and Montreal.

I think a better filtering system (eh, just make sure that they can at least speak one of the two official language and that they have a minimal education level to permit them to work) and also a relocalisation program (send them where they are needed) would go a long way to better the situation.

Those condition doesn't apply to refugee since those are in immediate need of help.
 
peapod
#6
Hey Jay, how about really talking about a real issue for a change. Is that all your ever gonna do?? are you ever gonna actually say something?? Do you fish the same way, well lucky for the fish anyway
 
Jay
#7
You need a course on how to read between the lines Pea, and BTW I've said plenty around here.

When I fish I like shinny lures, but the fish don't always like them.


I love the avatar BTW.
 
peapod
#8
Forget about the butter, I told you I don't like it. It would be nice tho if you actually replied without the leftist crap, the topic is a good one, and your attempts at being a smart ass are feeble...just my opinion of course.
 
Jay
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by peapod

Forget about the butter, I told you I don't like it. It would be nice tho if you actually replied without the leftist crap, the topic is a good one, and your attempts at being a smart ass are feeble...just my opinion of course.


Think of it as low fat margarine then.

See Pea, when I do speak my mind you tell me to stop with the leftist crap....so what do you want?

Do you tell Rev to quit the rightist crap he spins...no you don't.

If you feel it's a great topic, then comment on it.
 
peapod
#10
Dax,
I grew up in Port Alberni, they have a huge east indian population. I went to school with alot of them. I did see that the generation born here were pulled between both worlds. Their parents had immigrated from India and held on to all the customs from the old world. It was diffcult for the kids I knew, they wanted to belong and fit in with the other kids, but their parents had different ideas. One in particular I remember was someone we would walk to school with, as soon as we got around the corner, her skirt would roll up and the eyeliner would come out, the reverse would happen on the way home. I think it caused alot of anxiety, that a kid should not have to deal with. Personally I find the whole east indian culture interesting, especially the food, and I do think you can keep your culture and still fit into a canadian society. I also find that the minute you express some interest in their culture, something very nice happens.
This is not the land of milk and honey, that place does not exist, its a myth. What there is here is opportunity.
 
cub1c
#11
First of all, let me tell you what immigration means in Canada.

Most Canadian think, or get the impression, that immigration is to help people from countrys poorer than our to have a better life. Give them a chance to live in our beautiful North America since it's the best place on earth, the american dream. I'll make it short because it's a very complex issue.

People who have studied a bit of economics will tell you this: the main reason for accepting so much immigration is not sympathy or because we are so great, it's to sustain an economical expansion. In a capitalism mentality, the only way to sustain that growth is to have more consumers. Since we don't make enough babies in order to sustain, we need more immigrants! It's like that! And our government know that, and they know that accepting always more and more immigrants will make our economy grow, and it's so easy! Easy money!

Now we understand the most important reason of immigration, let's look at our inferiority complex.

One thing I hate by being in Canada, is the lack of proudness of being Canadian, and the definition of being Canadian itself. We like to compare ourself so let's look at how US works in terms of immigration. Sure they accept a lot, but once they're in US, they aren't chineese, portugese, mexicans or martian, they are Americans! That's how it works down there! Why? Because they are proud to be Americans and they don't want to loose their identity over immigration that they absolutly need.

Whether you like it or not, it has to be this way. It's not racism or intolerance to assimilite our fellow immigrants. But since the US is doing it, and we are supposed to be so different from them, we have to hate them for that. So Canadian think "if we assimilate them they are going to loose their identity, we are going to be seen as racists, and it's just not allright". But what is alright? To be so good for everybody so that we loose OUR identity? Good for bad?

And what do we do in Canada? We are to even in the center, we completely in the wrong path! We raise our kids that they must not be racists, they must be tolerant, etc etc. But we don't tell immigrant to respect our identity, to respect our culture and to adopt it! And it's Canada's way of handling this.

It's all clearly a lack of proudness. And I guess Canadian don't even know what it is to be Canadian, they forgot it. If nothing change, I tell you, there would never be a trace left of what a Canadian looked like.

And guys, wake up, you have the very similar problem right in front of your face! Look at how Quebecers are treated. We get told we are racist and (#@$* because we want the right to assimilate our immigrants. We are facists for that. It's just a normal reaction people have toward people that are proud.

Quebecers are proud to be Quebecers.

Like our great Falardeau once said: "We, Quebecers, aren't racists. We have to stop excusing ourself."
 
galianomama
#12
i just don't understand as a nation why we have to be so apologetic over everything. i can remember being extremely nationalist when i was a kid in the '60's. what happened? trudeau was around, we had expo '67 and we took a great deal of pride in having such a diverse country. i think we all have an understanding of being nationalist, but we don't exactly wear our heart on our sleeve.

what do we need to do to change?
 
Reverend Blair
#13
We could use some real leadership for a change, galiano. Look at the monkeys in Ottawa. I find them endlessly entertaining, but they sure as hell don't make me proud.

Trudeau believed in Canada. So did the rest of the people sitting in the House of Commons. Now we have a bean counter as PM who is only loyal to the almighty dollar, and the official opposition is led by a man who wants us to be a mini-me of the nation next door. Our third-largest party exists to break the country up.

Why would new immigrants have pride in our country? Our leaders don't.
 
Dervish_Khan
#14
Cub1c,

Did you or your ancestors adapt the traditions, norms, religion, and values of the native inhabitants of this land? Is that why many first-nations people were mass-slaughtered? Who who are you to expect the new-Canadians to integrate into your culture? Face it buddy, Canada has no official culture. That fact is explicitly underscored in the constitution. In fact, it is that fact that draws more than 250000 immigrants to this land every year.

For this reason, a new Canadian is conspicuously entitled to the same rights and privelages that are endowed upon you or any other natural-born Canadian citizen. Rest assured that neither you nor anyone else owns this land. Thenseforth, you have no right to exert pressure upon new residents to change their ways of living. Many immigrants, including people like my parents (both of whom have PHDs in their respective fields), will be forced to change their culture or ideologies.
Regards,
Dervish
 
I think not
#15
Ok, I have been told repeatedly I know nothing about Canada and its citizens, but I think know Canadians alot better than most Americans. And I'll say again, I am not anti-Canadian. So much for the disclaimer.

By the way DasFx, I like your new avatar. The issue with newly arrived immigrants in Canada is not so much the Canadian people
from my observations and readings. It is the manipulative immigration tactics by the Canadian Government.

The Canadian government advertises through its embassies, its websites and in certain parts of the world through media outlets, that Canada needs college graduates, engineers, doctors etc...
Upon their arrival they are then told that their degrees are not acceptable within the Canadian system and they will have to go back to school. Perhaps if they had known that prior to their arrival into Canada, they would have been better prepared, if not changed their minds of immigrating altogether.

Upon arrival however some private businesses may accept their degrees and quote a lack of "Canadian Experience" in not hiring them. This just adds oil to the fire.

In addition nobody can deny the fact that racism exists, indeed it knows no borders and transcends skin color and nationalities. The old adage, "if you dont like it go back home" is rude and against the fundamental principals of immigration.

So in the process of selling off everything they own and are required by the way to have a minimum of $10,000 upon arrival, some interpret that into an immigration scam. It's pretty easy to understand it really, the Canadian government has a quota of about 300,000 immigrants annually, do the math, we're talking billions pumped into the economy not to mention the average fees are about $2,500 to $4,000.

Many immigrants also see "racial" neighborhoods as a form of seggragation, (which I think you were pointing out DasFX) and not a proud multicultural society. Well I think thats visible in any corner of the globe and its not applicable to Canada alone.

Of all the immigrants I have encountered in Canada they will all tell me they are proud to be Russian, Greek, Italian, Indian etc.... ( I speak of first generation immigrants) I have yet to encounter one that says hes a proud Canadian. Here in lies the problem in my opinion. I understand the importance of not forgetting your roots, however if one does not say he/she is proud to be Canadian, they have never fully adapted into their new way of life. The fact that Canada promotes multiculturism so intensely only adds a little more fuel.

The fact of the matter is when you move to another country, you should make it a priority to learn about that country before you sell off everything and start a new life, this is where the Canadian government has failed and manipulated the situation.

There are always stories to be told and none of them will ever be fully accurate, perhaps not even a perfect formula can be found.
 
galianomama
#16
interesting observations.

dervish, a side note here - a fine balance by rohinton mistry is to me, one of the best books i have read in a long time. it is a compilation of the lives of four people in the class system of india. that book takes place in 1975 - indira ghandi's regime. i wonder when your parents immigrated to canada, was it around that time? have you read this book? i have read it twice now...very compelling writer.

in canada we really have no clue what it was like for individuals living in india during that time frame, and this helps to put an emotion behind it.
 
Dervish_Khan
#17
Dervish Khan is not Indian. He is half Kurdish half Persian. Thus, he does not have have extensive knowledge about the class sytem back in India. But he earnestly thanks you for your recommendation.
 
galianomama
#18
ha! that's awesome! yeah, it's an amazing book....for anyone! welcome to canada! hey - i have a lot of persian friends out here on the island, a large population of b'hai's....
 
galianomama
#19
and speaking of assimilation of immigrants into canada...the b'hai's and notably the persians - all seem well assimulated into canadian culture and such. everyone i have had the pleasure of meeting has been extremely successful here...... they have great food too!
 
peapod
#20
Don't forget our grocery he was born in persia, I call him the spice man, always dealing and trading in spices, he calls me neighbour his place smells really good to. Just ask galaniomama
 
galianomama
#21
pea - he's lebanese....and a cool dude....hey - we should head down there tonight and see what's happening. saw him the other night sitting outside with his coffee and cig

i waved - but was going too fast.
 
peapod
#22
No he is not mama, you should listen more carefully, he was born in persia, but like any good spice trader he moved around, I think they call it a spice route
 
galianomama
#23
ooops
 
DasFX
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by Dervish_Khan

Cub1c,Did you or your ancestors adapt the traditions, norms, religion, and values of the native inhabitants of this land? Is that why many first-nations people were mass-slaughtered?

Many immigrants, including people like my parents (both of whom have PHDs in their respective fields), will be forced to change their culture or ideologies.

The plain truth is, the native Canadians were engaged in battle and they lost. Had they won, their culture would still predominate. That is how disputes were settled in the early years of this continent.

Texas and California were both Spanish, but then they lost. Michigan was French, but then they lost. So until a new culture defeats the current culture, I think folks here have every right to dictate the culture. You can become a part of it and add to it, but you cannot completely change it or take things away.

As for you parent's PhDs. I could care less how many letters they have after their name. That piece of information did nothing to strengthen your argument.
 
cub1c
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by Dervish_Khan

Did you or your ancestors adapt the traditions, norms, religion, and values of the native inhabitants of this land?

What's next? You're going to blame dinosaurs extinction on me?

Quote: Originally Posted by Dervish_Khan

Face it buddy, Canada has no official culture.

Thanks for the compliment. You're a real integrated immigrant!

Quote: Originally Posted by Dervish_Khan

Thenseforth, you have no right to exert pressure upon new residents to change their ways of living.

Those who want to implement Charia into our justice system are probably thinking the same way.

Sorry for the sarcasm but you'll have to find better.
 
Dervish_Khan
#26
Quote:

The plain truth is, the native Canadians were engaged in battle and they lost. Had they won, their culture would still predominate. That is how disputes were settled in the early years of this continent

But that is not how disputed are dealt with today... There, you got it all wrong again (intentionally, I'd suppose)
In my aforementioned post, I was merely responding to cub1c's assertion that immigrants should be assimilated into the dominant Canadian "culture". In my humble response to his rather absurd proposal, I said, quite unequivocally, that in a country like Canada, there is no officially recognised "dominant culture". For this very reason, one need not worry about assimilating into any culture. As you pointed out in your above comment, forcing a nation into assimilation is an ancient and primitive technique which is not applicable in this age.

As for my parents' PHD, I utilised that example to accentuate the fact that they are, contrary to your perception of a general immigrant, quite knowledgeable and educated and are fluent in English despite living in an all-Iranian neighbourhood. (without much exposure to the "dominant culture")
 
Dervish_Khan
#27
cub1c,

Greetings to you! (I hope you are not offended that I do not speak French)
Anyhow, I attribute your misunderstanding of my response either to my bad English or to yours (no offence intended). So, please go back and re-read it. Only, then repond to my questions in a clever and persuasive manner.
 
cub1c
#28
Quote:

In my aforementioned post, I was merely responding to cub1c's assertion that immigrants should be assimilated into the dominant Canadian "culture". In my humble response to his rather absurd proposal, I said, quite unequivocally, that in a country like Canada, there is no officially recognised "dominant culture".

First, I was evoking Québec's culture, and it's not dominant in Canadian culture, but is in Québec! Second, judgement doesn't come with diploma.
 
cub1c
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by Dervish_Khan

cub1c,
Greetings to you! (I hope you are not offended that I do not speak French)

Yes I am, please assimilate yourself.

Quote: Originally Posted by Dervish_Khan

As you pointed out in your above comment, forcing a nation into assimilation is an ancient and primitive technique which is not applicable in this age.

What about assimilation of the quebecers? The same way US is assimilating ROC?

It would be interesting to have your opinion on some subject like the Charia thing. What about the right for a room in a public school so they can prey? And those who fight for their right to wash their feet in public sinks? Government financing private school for espacially for jews, or any others?
 
DasFX
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by Dervish_Khan

As for my parents' PHD, I utilised that example to accentuate the fact that they are, contrary to your perception of a general immigrant, quite knowledgeable and educated and are fluent in English despite living in an all-Iranian neighbourhood. (without much exposure to the "dominant culture")

When did I say most immigrants are not knowledgable? Being fluent in English is one thing, you can know all the words and rules, but to be truely fluent one must interact with society. Iranian English is probably far different from mainstream English.
 

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