Would you fly in a 737 Max 8 right now?


VIBC
#31
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslave View Post

So far only two have fallen. In third world countries. I would venture that it says more about their training than the plane itself.

Two fatal crashes so early in the life of a commercial aircraft is highly unusual, and the fatal-accident rate of the 737 Max is now second-highest of the modern era, after the ill-fated Concorde. The 737 Max has only flown about 500,000 flights, estimates aviation-safety expert Todd Curtis of AirSafe.com. With two crashes causing fatalities, the fatal-accident rate of the 737 Max would be 4 flights per million. That’s far higher than for most modern airliners. The prior version of the 737, for instance, has flown 61 million flights and averages just 0.2 fatal flights per million.
https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/th...203441321.html

EMERGENCY AIRWORTHINESS DIRECTIVE
Operating Procedures Required by AD 2018-23-51
Runaway Stabilizer
Disengage autopilot and control airplane pitch attitude with control column
and main electric trim as required. If relaxing the column causes the trim to
move, set stabilizer trim switches to CUTOUT. If runaway continues, hold
the stabilizer trim wheel against rotation and trim the airplane manually.
Note: The 737-8/-9 uses a Flight Control Computer command of pitch
trim to improve longitudinal handling characteristics. In the event of
erroneous Angle of Attack (AOA) input, the pitch trim system can trim
the stabilizer nose down in increments lasting up to 10 seconds.
In the event an uncommanded nose down stabilizer trim is experienced
on the 737-8/ -9, in conjunction with one or more of the indications or
effects listed below, do the existing AFM Runaway Stabilizer procedureZ
above, ensuring that the STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches are set to CUTOUT and sta
y in the CUTOUT position for the remainder of the flight.
An erroneous AOA input can cause some or all of the following
indications and effects:
•Continuous or intermittent stick shaker on the affected side only.
•Minimum speed bar (red and black) on the aff ected side only.
•Increasing nose down control forces.
•IAS DISAGREE alert.
•ALT DISAGREE alert.
•AOA DISAGREE alert (if the option is installed).
•FEEL DIFF PRESS light.
•Autopilot may disengage.
•Inability to engage autopilot.
Initially, higher control forces may be needed to overcome any
stabilizer nose down trim already applied. Electric stabilizer trim can be
used to neutralize control column pitch forces before moving the STAB
TRIM CUTOUT switches to CUTOUT. Manual stabilizer trim can be
used before and after the STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches are moved
to CUTOUT.
http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/...AD20182351.pdf
Not sure how much time they would have to assimilate & react?
 
DaSleeper
+2
#32
I'd have second thoughts about fliying in a helicopter right now....
The daughter of a good friend of my wife and the daughter's husband crashed last week


Missing couple's helicopter found in wooded area, partially buried in snow: search master




Crews in a Canadian Armed Forces Hercules aircraft spotted the site of a helicopter crash, circled in red, March 11, 2019. It was found 35 nautical miles from Nicole and Jody Blais' destination, a hangar in Fauquier. Supplied photo



More: https://www.timminstoday.com/local-n...master-1316676
 
VIBC
#33
Quote: Originally Posted by spaminator View Post

perhaps planes that crash should be discontinued.


I think aircraft safety deserves serious consideration at all times.
 
VIBC
+1
#34
Quote: Originally Posted by DaSleeper View Post

I'd have second thoughts about fliying in a helicopter right now....
The daughter of a good friend of my wife and the daughter's husband crashed last week

DaSleeper, Condolences of the loss of your friends. It's a mind-numbing shock when these kinds of thing happen. I lost one co-worker in a bush plane accident. the aircraft was missing for weeks and the atmosphere at work was oppressive. It was eventually spotted nose-down in the trees with everyone still strapped in.

Another friend was one of the pilots in a major airline disaster that killed all on board. As is nearly always the case there were multiple errors and failures; in design, in manuals and communications generally, any one of which might otherwise have prevented the accident.


Aircraft safety is no joking matter.
Last edited by VIBC; Mar 13th, 2019 at 02:19 PM..
 
DaSleeper
#35
Thanks, but I did not know the pilot and his wife personally, just the mother is a friend of my wife.
 
VIBC
#36
Wow, M. Garneau finally noticed similarities between the two accidents, only days after everyone else was pointing them out. And now even Trump 'gets it.' Progress I suppose.
 
Ocean Breeze
#37
Trump orders ban on all Boeing 737 MAX 8 flights in U.S.

https://globalnews.ca/news/5051291/b..._campaign=2019
 
VIBC
+1
#38
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslave View Post

So far only two have fallen. In third world countries. I would venture that it says more about their training than the plane itself.

I'm not sure they would have had enough time to process & react before the point of no return: control difficulties at low altitude while multiple alarms are going off in the cockpit. The entire flight only lasted about 6 minutes.
 
Kreskin
+1
#39
Quote: Originally Posted by VIBC View Post

Wow, M. Garneau finally noticed similarities between the two accidents, only days after everyone else was pointing them out. And now even Trump 'gets it.' Progress I suppose.

I suspect he caught wind of the US planning to ban. Would've looked strange being the only country not putting safety first.
 
Cannuck
#40
Quote: Originally Posted by Ocean Breeze View Post

Trump orders ban on all Boeing 737 MAX 8 flights in U.S.
https://globalnews.ca/news/5051291/b..._campaign=2019


Is anybody surprised that Trump over reacted?
 
Walter
+1
#41
Quote: Originally Posted by spaminator View Post

perhaps planes that crash should be discontinued.

Planes that crash are discontinued.
 
Ocean Breeze
+1
#42


Ethiopian Airlines sends flight recorders from crashed jet abroad for analysis


https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/e...d-for-analysis
 
Walter
#43
Quote: Originally Posted by Ocean Breeze View Post


Ethiopian Airlines sends flight recorders from crashed jet abroad for analysis

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/e...d-for-analysis

Good to know they know their limitations.
 
Kreskin
+3
#44  Top Rated Post
Sounds like many pilots have reported flight control problems on these models. Many temporary in-flight occurances. Most dealt with by disengaging autopilot. At minimum these planes should be flown manually until ample altitude before engaging the flight management system.
 
VIBC
#45
Quote: Originally Posted by Walter View Post

Good to know they know their limitations.

The limitations in this case are possession of the equipment for retrieval of the (possibly damaged) flight recorder data and acquired expertise in analysing it. I think Ethiopia, like many other countries, has had little reason to obtain these.

You can't do it with your ipad

" .... how about Ethiopian Airlines? Here is another impoverished country surrounded by rugged terrain. Yet the record of its national carrier — three fatal events, one of them a hijacking, in over seventy years of operation — is exceptional. Ethiopian is one of the proudest and arguably one of the safest airlines in the world."
https://www.askthepilot.com/question...irline-safety/
 
VIBC
#46
Quote: Originally Posted by Kreskin View Post

Sounds like many pilots have reported flight control problems on these models. Many temporary in-flight occurances. Most dealt with by disengaging autopilot. At minimum these planes should be flown manually until ample altitude before engaging the flight management system.

Kreskin, Not seeking to argue with you but I'm not sure this "attitude management system" or whatever they call it, depends on the autopilot being engaged. My impression (not knowledge!) is that it can activate itself regardless, unless of course it has been (somehow) deliberately and specifically disarmed.
 
Ocean Breeze
#47
Quote: Originally Posted by VIBC View Post

The limitations in this case are possession of the equipment for retrieval of the (possibly damaged) flight recorder data and acquired expertise in analysing it. I think Ethiopia, like many other countries, has had little reason to obtain these.

You can't do it with your ipad

" .... how about Ethiopian Airlines? Here is another impoverished country surrounded by rugged terrain. Yet the record of its national carrier — three fatal events, one of them a hijacking, in over seventy years of operation — is exceptional. Ethiopian is one of the proudest and arguably one of the safest airlines in the world."
https://www.askthepilot.com/question...irline-safety/

Interesting link... Thks.
 
Kreskin
+1
#48
Quote: Originally Posted by VIBC View Post

Kreskin, Not seeking to argue with you but I'm not sure this "attitude management system" or whatever they call it, depends on the autopilot being engaged. My impression (not knowledge!) is that it can activate itself regardless, unless of course it has been (somehow) deliberately and specifically disarmed.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn...max/index.html
I'm by no means an expert. I noticed on this report that some pilots noted the issue occurred when autopilot was engaged shortly after takeoff, and they resolved it by disengagement.
 
Curious Cdn
#49
Quote: Originally Posted by DaSleeper View Post

I'd have second thoughts about fliying in a helicopter right now....
The daughter of a good friend of my wife and the daughter's husband crashed last week

Missing couple's helicopter found in wooded area, partially buried in snow: search master

Crews in a Canadian Armed Forces Hercules aircraft spotted the site of a helicopter crash, circled in red, March 11, 2019. It was found 35 nautical miles from Nicole and Jody Blais' destination, a hangar in Fauquier. Supplied photo
More: https://www.timminstoday.com/local-n...master-1316676


The Navy had an incident a month ago that has been quietly forgotten with the new fly-by-wire CH-148 Cyclone helicopter. This machine is right out of the Sikorsky plant with state-of-the-art fly by wire technology. It made a "hard landing" on the deck of our new supply ship, mid-A acific, which had to put into Guam, presumably to unload it.

http://nationalpost.com/news/nationa...f-ba952ee7ac22

What is notable about the incident is that a Cyclone suddenly list power and dropped a distance while being tested a couple of years back when the fly-by-wire computer rebooted itself in mid hover!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-s...orce-1.4159754

No one was hurt in either accident, although the "hard landing" a month ago caused visible damage. These are seriously expensive aircraft ... big one too and they could be carrying two dozen soldiers and a crew of airmen the next time the computer feels the need to "re-boot".

A.I. isn't quite there, yet and computer code is never perfect.
 
Kreskin
+2
#50
I'm one of those x-plane warriors lol. I only know enough to realize some crazy stuff can happen when you don't fully understand why it occurs. I once flew a simulated 747 that wouldnt descend below about 5000 feet unless i slowed to a stall lol. Could not figure out why. Fortunately all i had to do was abandon the flight and start over.
 
Curious Cdn
+2
#51
Quote: Originally Posted by Kreskin View Post

I'm one of those x-plane warriors lol. I only know enough to realize some crazy stuff can happen when you don't fully understand why it occurs. I once flew a simulated 747 that wouldnt descend below about 5000 feet unless i slowed to a stall lol. Could not figure out why. Fortunately all i had to do was abandon the flight and start over.

You're supposed to put another Looney in the slot and it'll power up, again and the nose will come back up.
 
Kreskin
#52
Quote: Originally Posted by Curious Cdn View Post

You're supposed to put another Looney in the slot and it'll power up, again and the nose will come back up.

I wanted the nose to come down lol.
 
Curious Cdn
#53
Quote: Originally Posted by Kreskin View Post

I wanted the nose to come down lol.

kick it on the side, then!

[see: Boeing 747 Owner's Manual pgs. 40-50]

It's in the glove box under the CAA map of the North Atlantic Great Circle Routes.
 
VIBC
#54
Quote: Originally Posted by Kreskin View Post

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn...max/index.html
I'm by no means an expert. I noticed on this report that some pilots noted the issue occurred when autopilot was engaged shortly after takeoff, and they resolved it by disengagement.


Probably a question of crossed terminology. I found this on the AskThePilot site:

This nose-down command can last upwards of ten seconds, Boeing says, and can repeat at five-second intervals, whether in manual flight or with the autopilot engaged. If and when this happens, the stabilizer trim itself gives no indication that itís moving. All the crew knows is that the plane is nosing over.
 
Kreskin
+1
#55
Quote: Originally Posted by Curious Cdn View Post

kick it on the side, then!
[see: Boeing 747 Owner's Manual pgs. 40-50]
It's in the glove box under the CAA map of the North Atlantic Great Circle Routes.

It was like I was caught in some fight between ILS, glide slope and an FMS that wanted to go somewhere else. Just floated in circles. I should've reported this to the FAA . The good news is I had no paying customers. If I had I'd have told them to piss off and that it wasn't getting any easier with their nagging, and if they didn't like it they should fly their own goddam airplanes. Maybe I should work for Air Canada .
 
Kreskin
+1
#56
Quote: Originally Posted by Curious Cdn View Post

kick it on the side, then!
[see: Boeing 747 Owner's Manual pgs. 40-50]
It's in the glove box under the CAA map of the North Atlantic Great Circle Routes.

It was like I was caught in some fight between ILS, glide slope and an FMS that wanted to go somewhere else. Just floated in circles. I should've reported this to the FAA . The good news is I had no paying customers. If I had I'd have told them to piss off and that it wasn't getting any easier with their nagging, and if they didn't like it they should fly their own goddam airplanes. Maybe I should work for Air Canada .
 
Kreskin
#57
Quote: Originally Posted by VIBC View Post

Probably a question of crossed terminology. I found this on the AskThePilot site:

This nose-down command can last upwards of ten seconds, Boeing says, and can repeat at five-second intervals, whether in manual flight or with the autopilot engaged. If and when this happens, the stabilizer trim itself gives no indication that itís moving. All the crew knows is that the plane is nosing over.

Sounds like a nightmare.
 
VIBC
+1
#58
Quote: Originally Posted by Curious Cdn View Post

... the "hard landing" a month ago caused visible damage.

"Hard Landing" - the ultimate euphemism. It has caused everything from crushed vertebrae to physical loss of an engine and more, leading to destruction of the whole aircraft with everyone aboard.

The idea that a controlling computer could randomly reboot is mind boggling.
 
Mowich
+2
#59
Kudos to Marc Garneau for his clear, concise and understandable explanation of why Canada grounded the planes today. So very refreshing to listen to someone who knows what they are talking about and have the ability to explain their decisions in a straight forward manner. Wish he would come over from the Dark Side - he'd be a great addition to our party.
 
VIBC
#60
Quote: Originally Posted by Mowich View Post

Kudos to Marc Garneau for his clear, concise and understandable explanation of why Canada grounded the planes today. So very refreshing to listen to someone who knows what they are talking about and have the ability to explain their decisions in a straight forward manner. Wish he would come over from the Dark Side - he'd be a great addition to our party.

Must be the party that wouldn't put public safety ahead of corporate interests until it's embarrassed into it. Marc Garneau was declaring complete confidence in the aircraft when it was obvious that it just may have a serious problem. He was at least 2 days late in acting, second only to the country with the corporation that designs & builds the plane.
 
Curious Cdn
#61
Quote: Originally Posted by Mowich View Post

Kudos to Marc Garneau for his clear, concise and understandable explanation of why Canada grounded the planes today. So very refreshing to listen to someone who knows what they are talking about and have the ability to explain their decisions in a straight forward manner. Wish he would come over from the Dark Side - he'd be a great addition to our party.

The truth is before the grounding, Canadian carriers were running out of places to land in the World. No one wanted them in their airspace. Garneau was almost last to the party. Sunwing beat him to it, for God sake.