Lying Us Into War, Again


JBeee
#1
June 16, 2007
by Charley Reese
T he drumbeat for war against Iran has begun again, led by Sen. Joe Lieberman, the independent Democrat from Connecticut, and the usual pro-Israel crowd. Lieberman seems to be under the impression that the U.S. can bomb Iran and not get into a full-fledged war.
Well, we know all about cakewalks and how they turn into long, bloody and dreary marches. We learned nothing from Vietnam, and apparently some of the people have learned nothing from Iraq, now a cakewalk war that has lasted longer than World War II, though not with the same intensity and mass.
If the senator, who seems to be one of those who loves war as long as he doesn't have to fight it, really believes that we can attack Iran without Iranian retaliation, then he's naive. If he knows better, he's a liar, and to lie the American people into a second war before the other lied-into war in Iraq is even over is despicable. He should be shunned by all decent people.
I don't see how any honest man can believe that Iran is a threat to the United States or its neighbors. Iran has not invaded anyone in the past 100 years. Iran has from the beginning insisted that its nuclear program is for peaceful energy purposes, and there has been no evidence – I repeat, no evidence – to the contrary. The Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty explicitly authorizes countries to enrich uranium. In other words, Iran has not done anything illegal.
Iran has no intercontinental missiles, and the only country in the Middle East with nuclear weapons is Israel. Please note that the United States flatly refuses to endorse the idea of a nuclear-free Middle East. Iran has signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. Israel has refused to sign it. Iran admits international inspectors. Israel flatly refuses to allow international inspectors. The only country in today's Middle East with weapons of mass destruction and a history of invading and occupying other people's countries is Israel.
As for Iran's alleged threat to "wipe Israel off the map," that is propaganda based on a mistranslation. Nobody in Iran has ever threatened to attack Israel militarily. The accurate quotes from Iranians have been simply that Israel as a Zionist state will eventually collapse, just as the Soviet Union as a communist state did. Iranian officials have even explicitly said they have no desire or intention of attacking Israel.
You should ask yourself, What is the real motive of people who deal in lies? What is the real agenda of people who wish to paint Iran as a threat to the world? (Remember what a threat they said Iraq was?) Why, if the United States is really concerned about preventing the spread of nuclear weapons, has it steadfastly refused to endorse the idea of a nuclear-free Middle East – something Iran and the Arab countries have proposed time and again?
Finally, of course, there is the matter of deterrence. Deterrence worked against the Soviet Union's 30,000 nuclear weapons and the means of delivering them. Anybody who says Iran would not be deterred from using a handful of nuclear weapons – assuming it even developed them – is a fool or a liar. Furthermore, Iran would gain nothing by attacking Israel, the U.S. or Europe. Americans might disagree with how Iranians choose to run their country, but that doesn't mean that Iran's leaders are insane. They are, in fact, intelligent and well-educated. As for the United States' latest claim that Iran is supplying weapons to the Taliban, I simply don't believe it. The U.S. government has lied and lied to the American people. It has zero credibility. Iran is a Shi'ite country; the Taliban are a fanatical Sunni sect. Iran volunteered its assistance during the initial American attack on Afghanistan. Why would Iran suddenly change its mind?
 
Zzarchov
#2
Actually, bombing the crap out of a country is America's strong point and has no problems with it.


Its when America tries to stay and rebuild the mess its made that it gets into problems. As long as it doesn't do that again, it can win war after war with impunity.

War is easy (Iraq took days), reconstruction is hard (taking years).
 
Fingertrouble
#3
Quote:

I don't see how any honest man can believe that Iran is a threat to the United States or its neighbors. Iran has not invaded anyone in the past 100 years.

They might not have "invaded" anyone, but how many terrorist organizations have they backed with money weapons and training? And how many people have these organisations killed, maimed or terroized over the years? You may not have been the one who pulls the trigger....but you still have blood on you hands if you provide the means to carry out such attrocities.

Quote:

Iran has signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

Means nothing.....how can you trust a state that supports terrorism and spouts anti Isreal and holocaust denying retoric?

Quote:

Nobody in Iran has ever threatened to attack Israel militarily.

That is because they know that the odds that they could win such a conflict would be very slim. Israel may have a difficult fight if it involved war with Iran, but using their full military might and airpower it is a fight that they would probably win. Let us also not forget that their would be numerous countries that more than likely would be willing to come to Israel's aid. Not that they would necessarily want it....or need it....

Quote:

Anybody who says Iran would not be deterred from using a handful of nuclear weapons – assuming it even developed them – is a fool or a liar.

How so? It only takes one nuke to be "given" to a terrorist organisation to cause thousands of innocent lives to be lost.......

Quote:

Furthermore, Iran would gain nothing by attacking Israel, the U.S. or Europe.

Probably correct...but they don't lose if they let a Terrorist organization do it.....

Quote:

Americans might disagree with how Iranians choose to run their country, but that doesn't mean that Iran's leaders are insane. They are, in fact, intelligent and well-educated.

The US probably would be better to try not to interfere with how countries run their countries...but the "intelligent and well-educated" leaders you are referring to in Iran aren't really in control....it is the Religous leaders in that theological State that really pulls the strings......


Quote:

As for the United States' latest claim that Iran is supplying weapons to the Taliban, I simply don't believe it. The U.S. government has lied and lied to the American people. It has zero credibility. Iran is a Shi'ite country; the Taliban are a fanatical Sunni sect. Iran volunteered its assistance during the initial American attack on Afghanistan. Why would Iran suddenly change its mind?

Oh, lets see....probably to kill or injury americans, other coalition forces and innocent Afgan people, just as they have endorsed with supporting the likes of Hezbollah.............
 
Dreadful Nonsense
#4
I agree with everything fingertrouble said.
Iran's govt. is laughing at the west.
They want a huge war to unite Islamic extremists for some inane cause.
It's sad, for i like persian people.
 
Toro
#5
The Iranian economy is in trouble and President A is using foreign affairs to divert trouble at home.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_...y&auid=2721067
 
JBeee
#6
"The U.S. government has lied and lied to the American people. It has zero credibility.".....
`nuf said.
 
Minority Observer84
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by Fingertrouble View Post

They might not have "invaded" anyone, but how many terrorist organizations have they backed with money weapons and training? And how many people have these organisations killed, maimed or terroized over the years? You may not have been the one who pulls the trigger....but you still have blood on you hands if you provide the means to carry out such attrocities.



Means nothing.....how can you trust a state that supports terrorism and spouts anti Isreal and holocaust denying retoric?


That is because they know that the odds that they could win such a conflict would be very slim. Israel may have a difficult fight if it involved war with Iran, but using their full military might and airpower it is a fight that they would probably win. Let us also not forget that their would be numerous countries that more than likely would be willing to come to Israel's aid. Not that they would necessarily want it....or need it....



How so? It only takes one nuke to be "given" to a terrorist organisation to cause thousands of innocent lives to be lost.......



Probably correct...but they don't lose if they let a Terrorist organization do it.....



The US probably would be better to try not to interfere with how countries run their countries...but the "intelligent and well-educated" leaders you are referring to in Iran aren't really in control....it is the Religous leaders in that theological State that really pulls the strings......




Oh, lets see....probably to kill or injury americans, other coalition forces and innocent Afgan people, just as they have endorsed with supporting the likes of Hezbollah.............

Define terrorist ? Let me guess anyone who attacks or resists the us or it's allies fact of the matter is hezbollah drove IDF out of it's illegal occupation of lebanese territory but yet somehow they are the terrorists .
 
Johnnny
No Party Affiliation
#8
Anyone who doesnt have the same vision as George Bush is a terrorist.

The people who walk past you without looking at you are terrorists, people that look at you arent terrorists, lol jk
 
JBeee
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by Johnnny View Post

Anyone who doesnt have the same vision as George Bush is a terrorist.

The people who walk past you without looking at you are terrorists, people that look at you arent terrorists, lol jk

With the level of paranoia Americans are suffering, makes you wonder exactly who are the real terrorist and whom is winning the `war on terror`
 
talloola
No Party Affiliation
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by Zzarchov View Post

Actually, bombing the crap out of a country is America's strong point and has no problems with it.


Its when America tries to stay and rebuild the mess its made that it gets into problems. As long as it doesn't do that again, it can win war after war with impunity.

War is easy (Iraq took days), reconstruction is hard (taking years).

The bombing of Iraq was only the introduction to the war, and the easy part, if it was only as simple
as reconstruction, as that to me, only represents buildings etc., bush forgot about the people.
 
Fingertrouble
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by Minority Observer84 View Post

hezbollah drove IDF out of it's illegal occupation of lebanese territory but yet somehow they are the terrorists .

In the past I would agree that the IDF had an illegal occupation of Lebanese territory, but the Israelis had pulled out of Lebanon and only went in to try and stop the Hezbollah "terrorists" from rocketting Israel...NOT military targets, but launching UNGUIDED rockets at civilian populations.

Oh....and why would you just mention Israel? Aren't Hezbollah occupying Lebanese territory too?? it might not be territory you can identify on a map, but when they go from one place to the next launcing rockets from soil that is not theirs is that not the same as Israel coming into Lebanon and launching attacks on Hezbollah?

Also.....although last year was in no way a successful Israeli operation, Hezbollah DIDN't drive out Israel. There was a brokered ceasefire. I think it was the other side that was in trouble, they had to constant move under fear of Israeli military strikes and their leader was in hiding...some outfit they are.

Lets see them (Hezbollah) stand face to face with the Israeli army and fight....like other Terrorist Organizations (Al Qaida, IRA for example) they are not true combatants, as they hide and strike at easy targets and actively target civilians.
 
MikeyDB
#12
Let's reduce these issues to their basic components.

Iran; A nation that is susceptible to the influences of a dramatically different ethos stemming from religious belief. One could suggest that the (U.S.) Republican "right" and for that matter the Democrats (among whom a few good reverends sit as politicians..) has expressed a similar enthusiasm for using "beliefs" as justification for terrorism and invasion.... The overarching influence throughout the United States is however, the political structure is built on making money, securing power and wealth for the elite and both religion and commerce afford extremely powerful vehicles for achieving that end.

Whether you declare "war" because you "think" some other nation is a "threat" to your way of life isn't the exclusive purview of those nations rallied to a cause fueled by religious doctrine...

Iraq: A nation that was split between the Sunni and Shia religious factions, maintained in relative docility by an iron-fisted leader prepared to quell internecine conflict with his personal methodology that included chemical weapons and a preparedness to send in his military to strong-arm compliance...

Israel: A nation of near-fanatically self-absorbed people who've used the atrocities of the second world war to manipulate and through strong ties to the wealthiest thug on the block...dictate foreign policies of many of the world's nations.

Palestininans; One can't really say "Palestine" since the palestinian situation of millions living under occupation isn't really a "nation-state" but rather a response albeit a very often aggressive and in many instances a self-defeating response to a situation regarded as intolerable.

The ME (as a blanket or overarching concept): Anthropologically a tribal social structure that has involved itself in bloody warfare and conflict with each other for thousands of years.

United States: A nation of proudly self-absorbed consumers unwilling to acknowledge that their prosperity (romance with the automobile), the pursuit of happiness..(defined as the objects one can accumulate and exhibit to prove your "worth" to your society and the world)...never having resolved a similar dichotomy of racism and ethnic divisiveness that erupted into their only ever civil war (and although often acclaimed as a triumph of liberal ethics (freedom from slavery and the relegation of the human being as chattel) deciding the social dynamic make-up of a "republic" abhoring racism and slavery, was actually rather a contest of wealth under a thin veneer motivated by greed. In the United States, freedom of the individual is the highest "value", particularly when as the individual you have the opportunity to manipulate corrupt government and industry and realize vast fortunes on the backs of slaves semi-slaves (sweatshops financed in other nations by the appetites of American consumers)...

America has never cared who paid what price for anything...including turning a blind eye to the successively corrupt and juvenile governments that have cost both the domestic population their freedom and protection under the Constitution...and millions of others around the world suffering the imposition of oppressive regimes to keep American "interests" at the forefront of these puppet governments as significantly greater priority than the best interests of the people living in those nations and states....

Russia and China: I lump these two together simply because they have the populations and the financial potential to oppose the machinations of the United States...with of course their personal interests in petroleum supply, balance of international "power".."influence" geared to serve the interests of those ideological factions as well as the rampant corruption flourishing in those nations that regard the "West"...(the United States) as both the promise and the curse that comes with "prosperity".

Canada: A "hanger-on" reduced to impotence as a nation due to a fawning wannabe sychophantic relationship to the United States... In all fairness however, the richest nation on the planet (resource wealth) is occupied by a mere smattering of living human beings... There are many nations in the world that could take the population of their major cities (two or three of them) and demonstrate that while Canadians living this potentially fabulous life amid gargantuan potential is by and large underpopulated. This means that the tax system of Canada alone could never build a national defense comparable to other nations. So we've become (necessarily) reliant on the boobs next door to stand up for us in a fight....

Before anyone blows a gasket..I'm fully aware of the tremendous sacrifices made by Canadians in two world wars and mean no slight or insult to our brave citizens in uniform.

Canada is in Afghanistan...because we are a poorly led nation led by a gaggle of goons without any personal integrity of any kind...interested more in assuageing the wealthy and powerful of those goons next door.... Some might argue that we have committments under various international agreements and it's the "Canadian-way" to honor those agreements...even when the goons next door upon whom we rely significantly for the well being of our own nation...throw those agreements away when they no longer serve some particular "purpose".... see the Geneva Conventions the North American Free Trade Agreement...etc. etc. etc......

We see the United States driven by the Carlyle group and "defense-industry" interests dictating policy around the world. From which state can or can't have nuclear power to which nations "need" regime change to maintain the American fist of greed on natural resources these folk waste in ways and quantities that boggle the mind....

It's a mess for sure.

Iran isn't a threat to world security any more than was Iraq. If you want to imagine that the threat of funding "terrorism" is the motivation behind the political "will" of the United States...you'd be wrong.

The United States armed the muhujadeen to fight the Soviets...It supplied weapons and made nice with Iraq when Iraq was its "ally"...despite the fact that a few decades later she turned around and painted Saddam Hussein and the Iraqi nation as a "threat" to world peace...

The United States through the CIA was critically involved in taking faction of disenchanted students in Pakistan and building them into the modern day Taliban...all the while supporting the government in Islamabad that has been playing both sides of the line for years...

The United States has funded different factions and supplied weapons and intelligence to whomever the fat cats at the boardroom table of the military idustrial complex decided...including oppressive regimes and a willingness to ignore their own law when it comes to missiles and arms involving Iran and Nicaragua....attmpting to assassinate world leaders..Fidel Castro...Chavez..etc. and setting up Pinochet and Suharto to do the bidding of American industry knee deep in blood and conflict...

The answer to the majority of the situations that percolate across this rapidly browning little planet aren't particularly satisfactory to the United States..and as the most powerful (most heavily armed and wealthiest) boob on the block, until their is leadership in the Whitehouse that can find its own ass with both hands and a roadmap...which the current leadership is unable to do...we will continue to see these situations spiral out of control.

Then of course there's global warming...

Have a nice day...
 
earth_as_one
#13
F: "the Israelis had pulled out of Lebanon and only went in to try and stop the Hezbollah "terrorists" from rocketting Israel...NOT military targets, but launching UNGUIDED rockets at civilian populations."

Well that's wrong.



Early on July 12 Hezbollah launched a raid against an army border post, in what was probably a foolish violation of Israeli sovereignty. In the fighting, Hezbollah killed three soldiers and captured two others, while Hezbollah fired a few mortars at border areas in what the Israeli army described at the time as “diversionary tactics" not "attacks on Israeli civilians." But as a result, five Israelis were “lightly injured," with the most serious injury described as shock, according to Haaretz.

Israel’s immediate response was to send a tank into Lebanon in pursuit of the Hezbollah fighters (its own foolish violation of Lebanese sovereignty). The tank ran over a landmine, which exploded, killing four soldiers inside. Another soldier died in further clashes inside Lebanon as his unit tried to retrieve the bodies.

Rather than open diplomatic channels to calm the violence down and start the process of getting its soldiers back, Israel launched bombing raids deep into Lebanese territory the same day.

The next day Israel continued its rampage across the south and into Beirut, where the airport, roads, bridges, and power stations were pummelled. According to reports in the US media, the Israeli army had been planning such a strike against Lebanon for at least a year and its likely Hezbollah's raid just caused Israel to attempt what it was already planning to do: Invade southern Lebanon and neutralize Hezbollah.


You appear to believe is that Israeli civilians were the target of Hezbollah's July 12, 2006 raid rather than Israeli soldiers. If that was true, then I would have expected more civilian injuries. I would have also expected the injuries to be more severe than psychological shock. Over the next month after the raid Hezbollah proved it was capable of inflicting far more serious injuries than just shock. It also seems implausible that Hezbollah could have accidentally or unintentionally captured and killed Israeli soldiers while carrying out their intended attack on Israeli civilians. A more likely scenario is one that Hezbollah stated at the time. Hezbollah said that they intended to capture Israel soldiers in order to exchange them for some of the thousands of militants Israel captured previously and holds as bargaining chips for prisoner exchanges.

You appear to believe that Israel pounded Lebanon with its military hardware because Hezbollah began attacking Israeli civilians. I can find links which show that on July 12-13, 2006, the Israeli military threatened they would "t urn Lebanon's clock back 20 years" unless Hezbollah to released the Israeli soldiers they captured. They also said "Once it is inside Lebanon, everything is legitimate -- not just southern Lebanon, not just the line of Hizbullah posts". At the time the Israeli generals made these statement, no Israeli civilians had been seriously harmed, nor did the generals link their threats to Hezbollah attacks on civilians.

I'm not sure if you are aware, but while Hezbollah kept telling the world they wanted to return the captured Israeli soldiers in a prisoner swap, Israel kept refusing to talk directly or indirectly with Hezbollah. Seems to me if Israel really wanted to get their soldiers back, they would have accepted Hezbollah's offer for a prisoner swap by now.

Instead of releasing prisoners in a peaceful swap as offered by Hezbollah, Israel instead chose to kill more than a thousand civilians, severely injure many thousands more and create more than a million refugees. That seems unreasonable and irresponsible to me.

In contrast to the image you seem to have of Hezbollah frothing at the mouth to destroy Israel and drive Jews into the sea, Hezbollah held off from serious retaliation in response to Israel's bombardment of Lebanon for a day and a half. You would think blood thirsty terrorists intent on murdering as many Israeli civilians as possible would have shown less restraint. While Hezbollah limited their strikes to the northern borders areas related to battling Israeli invasion forces, Israel bombed water and sewage treatment facilities, power stations, factories, pharmaceutical companies, grocery stores and many other purely civilian targets.

In fact Hezbollah waited until late on June 13 before firing their first rockets on Haifa, even though they could have targeted Israel’s third largest city from the outset. The small volley of rockets Hezbollah directed at Haifa on July 13 caused no injuries and looked more like a warning than an escalation.

It was another three days of constant Israeli bombardmeent of Lebanon, destroying the country and injuring countless civilians -- before Hezbollah hit Haifa again, including a shell that killed eight workers in a railway depot.

Hezbollah did exactly what they had threatened to do if Israel refused to negotiate and chose the path of total war instead. Although the international media frequently quoted Hezbollah leader Nasrallah stating that day that “Haifa is just the beginning," they usually omitted the fact his threat was conditional on Israel’s continuing strikes against Lebanon. In the same speech he warned: “As long as the enemy pursues its aggression without limits and red lines, we will pursue the confrontation without limits and red lines.”

Seems to me, the Israel government had many opportunities to avoid dragging civilians into this conflict or reducing the harm to civilians but instead chose to recklessly endanger the lives of Lebanese and Israeli civilians.

Another implausible story you apparently believe is that, while Israel tried to fight a clean war by targeting only terrorists, Hezbollah preferred to bring death and destruction on innocents by firing rockets at Israeli civilians.

It is amazing that anyone could believe this. One need only look at the casualty figures from this conflict to see that if Israel targeted only Hezbollah fighters and military targets as you believe, then it made some disastrous miscalculations. About a third of casualties from Israel's bombardment were children. From the images which came out of Lebanon’s hospitals, many more children survived but with terrible burns or disabling injuries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict#Casualties

During this conflict, Hezbollah killed far more Israeli soldiers than Israeli civilians, while Israel killed far more Lebanese civilians than Hezbollah millitants.

How is it possible that Hezbollah, while targeting Israeli civilians could have accidentally killed mostly Israeli soldiers?

How is it possible that Israel while targeting Hezbollah militants could have accidentally killed mostly Lebanese civilians?

The above figures imply that most of Hezbollah’s attacks were directed at strategic targets and resulted in mostly military casulaties, while most of Israel's attacks were directed civilian targets and resulted in mostly civilian casualties.

Another story you seem to believe is that Hezbollah used Lebanese civilians as human shields. You seem unaware that Hezbollah’s fighters are not aliens recently arrived from training camps in Iran, but mostly Lebanese citizens. Most are Shiites who are strongly supported by Lebanon's Shiite community. Hezbollah fighters have families, friends, and neighbors living alongside them in the country’s south and the neighborhoods of Beirut. Most Shiites believe Hezbollah is the best hope of defending their country from Israel’s regular onslaughts.

Given the indigenous nature of Hezbollah’s resistance, it makes sense that these Lebanese citizens would try to reduce the risk of harm to their loved ones, and the Lebanese people more generally.

If only the same could be said of the Israeli army and airforce. One need only look at the images of the victims of its strikes against residential neighborhoods, cars, ambulances, and factories to see why most of the dead being extracted from the rubble are civilians.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/h...ion/html/1.stm

This dispute should have been settled in a fair and just way a long time ago. But Israel's many adversaries have been waiting 60 years for freedom and justice and they still don't have it. Millions still live as nationless refugees as a result of Israel's creation and ongoing ethnic cleansing. These people have legitimate disputes with Israel.

On the battlefield last summer, Israel's adversaries proved a small number of them can hold their own against the best Israel has. Expensive tanks and helicopters are vulnerable to cheap RPGs and MANPADs.

Sure Israel dominates the skies and can still level cities at will. But Israel's collective punishment of civilians and poor showing in the battlefield made many of Israel's adversaries realize that staying home may not be much safer than fighting on the front line.

Imagine what that realization did for recruitment...
 
MikeyDB
#14
Earth as one...

Seems that you've decided who's right and who's wrong in all this turmoil... Would it be unfair of me to suggest that you've deciced that the Israelis are the "bad guys" and Hezbollah Fatah and the Palestinians are the "good guys"..?

I'd suggest to you that the unpreparedness of all the factions in the Middle East to facilitate compromise and establish peaceful co-existence is the responsibility of all. That all are equally responsible and that the simplest solution would be to simply let the chips fall where they may...

Now I understand and appreciate that with the American goonship providing money and weapons to Israel that on that basis alone, one couldn't really regard the entire conflict as taking place on a level playing field. I don't know any way of influencing that dynamic however. Common sense has never been a strong point with either America or any of the folk directly involved. How could anyone factor out "common sense" in a conflict that's been brewing for half a hundred years???

It pains me to even imagine the death and devastation of either Palestine or Israel...Syria Lebanon or anyone else...but I don't see any solution available on a horizon so fraught with power greed and religious hostility...It's been that way in the ME for ever.... and now of course with the huge mistake of the U.N. in pandering to the British and the United States and lending legitimacy to the Israeli "state" back in 47....we're stuck with the mess created by short-sightedness and a world bully out of control....

The reduction of the appreciation for the value of human life...as exemplified by a preparedness to strap explosives on a person and detonate that package in a crowded plaza or movie theater or somewhere where there will be large numbers of casualties...doesn't speak to me of reasonableness or availability to rational discussion. To argue that the air strikes and armored assaults of the Israelis is simply product of having made and maintaining close ties to the worlds bully nation...doesn't suggest that common sense or rationality are strong points when it comes to Israel or the United States for that matter....

Everyone go home and let these folk destroy themselves so the planet can get on with what the rest of the planet is doing...
 
Minority Observer84
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by Fingertrouble View Post

In the past I would agree that the IDF had an illegal occupation of Lebanese territory, but the Israelis had pulled out of Lebanon and only went in to try and stop the Hezbollah "terrorists" from rocketting Israel...NOT military targets, but launching UNGUIDED rockets at civilian populations.

Oh....and why would you just mention Israel? Aren't Hezbollah occupying Lebanese territory too?? it might not be territory you can identify on a map, but when they go from one place to the next launcing rockets from soil that is not theirs is that not the same as Israel coming into Lebanon and launching attacks on Hezbollah?

Also.....although last year was in no way a successful Israeli operation, Hezbollah DIDN't drive out Israel. There was a brokered ceasefire. I think it was the other side that was in trouble, they had to constant move under fear of Israeli military strikes and their leader was in hiding...some outfit they are.

Lets see them (Hezbollah) stand face to face with the Israeli army and fight....like other Terrorist Organizations (Al Qaida, IRA for example) they are not true combatants, as they hide and strike at easy targets and actively target civilians.

First of all when i said drive out i did not mean last summer's fiasco but i was in fact talking about the the first occupation of lebanon . I will not go into all the human rights atrocities that the IDF is accused of perpetrating in lebanon at that time i will however remind you that even as hezbollah were launching unguided missiles into "settelments" ( A criminal practice that is perptrated all across lands that the IDF currently occupies ) the IDF was occupying lebanese territory namely the shiba farms .
 
earth_as_one
#16
Back on topic.

I doubt the US has the will or the resources to start an open war with Iran. Also Iran and Syria have a mutual defense pact

Iran and Syria confront US with defence pact
http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story...416319,00.html

But the covert war started soon after the US defeated Iraq.

January 18th, 2005
Seymour Hersh: U.S. Conducting Covert Operations in Iran For Possible Military Strike
http://www.democracynow.org/article..../01/18/1447252

Quote:

Tehran charges 3 detained U.S. citizens as spies

Colleagues and others decry the move against the Iranian Americans.
From the Associated Press
May 30, 2007


TEHRAN — Three Iranian Americans, including U.S. academic Haleh Esfandiari, have been charged with espionage and endangering national security, Iran's judiciary spokesman said Tuesday.

The charges, denied by relatives and colleagues of the three, were another example of Iran's stepped-up accusations that the U.S. is trying to use internal critics to destabilize the government.

"Esfandiari has been formally charged with endangering national security through propaganda against the system and espionage for foreigners…. The complainant is the Intelligence Ministry," judiciary spokesman Ali Reza Jamshidi told reporters.

Esfandiari, director of the Middle East Program at the Washington-based Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars, has been held at Tehran's Evin prison since early May, and allegations against her had been reported previously.

Esfandiari's husband, Shaul Bakhash, said the charges were "totally without foundation."

In Washington, the State Department said it had no information about formal charges being lodged but urged the detainees' release.

U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice called the treatment of Esfandiari and the others "a perversion of the rule of law."

"These are people who are there trying to make life better in Iran," Rice told reporters en route to Berlin. "These are not people engaged in espionage."

She also said the detentions were "wholly unconnected" to the U.S. military detention of five men Washington claims are Iranian intelligence agents in Iraq....

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...ck=1&cset=true

The next real battle will not involve Iran directly. It will be a proxy war, involving the US with its proxy Israel on one side and all of the US/Israel's adversaries on the other using Hezbollah and Hamas as proxies.

China and Russia who would like to see the US taken down a notch will supply the technology to even the fight out.
 
Fingertrouble
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by Minority Observer84 View Post

First of all when i said drive out i did not mean last summer's fiasco but i was in fact talking about the the first occupation of lebanon . I will not go into all the human rights atrocities that the IDF is accused of perpetrating in lebanon at that time i will however remind you that even as hezbollah were launching unguided missiles into "settelments" ( A criminal practice that is perptrated all across lands that the IDF currently occupies ) the IDF was occupying lebanese territory namely the shiba farms .

Well...Someone (maybe not Hezbollah...but someone) are at it again...and how did Israel provoke them this time????..See this news link from today....

Israel Hit By Rockets From Lebanon

Updated: 18:38, Sunday June 17, 2007
<H2>Two Katyusha rockets fired from Lebanon have fallen on northern Israel.

Police and the military said no-one was hurt but there was some damage.

</H2>

They were the first rockets fired from Lebanon since last summer's war between Israel and Hizbollah guerrillas.
Almost 4,000 were launched at Israel during the course of the fighting.
Channel 2 TV said one of the rockets fired on Sunday hit a factory and the other a car.
A splinter Palestinian group in Lebanon is thought to be behind the attack.
The rockets exploded near the northern town of Kiryat Shemona, hard hit during last summer's war.
The mayor of the town, Haim Barbivai, called for a tough response from both the Israeli and Lebanese governments.
"Heaven help us if we have another summer like the last one. That would be a tragedy," he said.
There was no immediate response from Israel.
The 2006 war started with a cross-border raid by Hezbollah in which three Israeli soldiers were killed and two captured.
Israel replied with a full-scale air offensive against Hizbollah targets and Lebanese infrastructure.
 
talloola
No Party Affiliation
#18
[quote=MikeyDB;844522]Let's reduce these issues to their basic components.

...

Israel: A nation of near-fanatically self-absorbed people who've used the atrocities of the second world war to manipulate and through strong ties to the wealthiest thug on the block...dictate foreign policies of many of the world's nations.

United States: A nation of proudly self-absorbed consumers unwilling to acknowledge that their prosperity (romance with the automobile), the pursuit of happiness..(defined as the objects one can accumulate and exhibit to prove your "worth" to your society and the world)...never having resolved a similar dichotomy of racism and ethnic divisiveness that erupted into their only ever civil war (and although often acclaimed as a triumph of liberal ethics (freedom from slavery and the relegation of the human being as chattel) deciding the social dynamic make-up of a "republic" abhoring racism and slavery, was actually rather a contest of wealth under a thin veneer motivated by greed. In the United States, freedom of the individual is the highest "value", particularly when as the individual you have the opportunity to manipulate corrupt government and industry and realize vast fortunes on the backs of slaves semi-slaves (sweatshops financed in other nations by the appetites of American consumers)...
".
The United States armed the muhujadeen to fight the Soviets...It supplied weapons and made nice with Iraq when Iraq was its "ally"...despite the fact that a few decades later she turned around and painted Saddam Hussein and the Iraqi nation as a "threat" to world peace...

You made many good points, but what you didn't say is, how Israel has been treated by the arabs in recent times and by the Nazis in the past, they have good reason to defend themselves. They have also done their share, but the criticism has to be balanced. If Israel wasn't supported by the u.s.
they would have been disposed of many years ago, by all the arabs who don't want them there to
begin with, and really hate them because of their great ability to 'progress as a people', and because of their religion.

I agree with you about the u.s., but there are many countries in the world just as corrupt in their own ways, and the u.s. is full of immigrants from all of the world, so I guess it is really how all of the countries in the world behave when they come together, I know that is making things too simple, but
it is basically the way it is, as the only 'real' americans are 'first nation', same in Canada, two countries full of immigrants.

I am quite aware of how the u.s. funded the muhujadeen in the past, but we do have to keep up with how the situations change. In those days there was the 'cold war', so the soviet union was not to be helped in any situation, hence, the u.s. helping 'anyone' ,who was trying to defend themselves against them. After the fall of the iron curtain, and communism, everything began to change, so, in my opinion we should start from there.

Of course Canada will be heavily influenced by the u.s., that can't be helped when you are right next door to a large country by such a long border. I think we keep our individuality quite nicely, we
treasure our natural resources and the u.s. is not going to take anything from us, or invade us.
We like the good life just as they do, why not!!!
If the u.s. is so bad, why do all the people immigrate there, and not to Canada.
 
Fingertrouble
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by Minority Observer84 View Post

i will however remind you that even as hezbollah were launching unguided missiles into "settelments" ( A criminal practice that is perptrated all across lands that the IDF currently occupies ) the IDF was occupying lebanese territory namely the shiba farms .

So in other words you are justifying launching rockets at innocent civilians.
 
earth_as_one
#20
M, I'm not making such simplistic judgements. All I'm trying to do is post information selectively omitted by our media. You can draw your own conclusions.

I believe anytime a military conflict targets civilians, someone is committing war crimes. In last summer's battles, both sides targetted civilians.

But its clear Israel upped the stakes to include civilians first and I'm not going to let misinformed posts which portray Hezbollah as targetting civilians first go unchallenged.

Also you have a misperception that Palestine has always been a battleground. Sure it has been periodically. But for most of the time it was controlled by the Ottomans, Palestine was a peaceful corner of the world consisting mostly of Muslims, Christians, Jews who lived together without conflict. The root cause of today's problems in Israel/Palestine relate to Zionism and the related ethnic cleansing Zionsism requires to create a pure Jewish state in an area that before Zionism was about as Jewish as Manhattan.

By the way, I'm not even criticizing the goals of Zionism. But I don't agree with using violence to achieve objectives. That's how we got to where we are today and I can't see any non-violent way out.

My view is we should put all the world leaders who advocate violence in a room and let them settle things. George Bush is in pretty good shape. I'm pretty sure he could take Osama Bin Laden. If not he can always tag California's governator.
 
catman
#21
If the US unilaterally atacks Iran I wonder what Stephen Harper's reaction will be?
 
Unforgiven
#22
Quote:

My view is we should put all the world leaders who advocate violence in a room and let them settle things. George Bush is in pretty good shape. I'm pretty sure he could take Osama Bin Laden. If not he can always tag California's governator

Problem is they just keep pushing you down and telling you to go sit in the room and settle nothing. Then usually take your lunch money.
 
earth_as_one
#23
Bush is in pretty good shape. Here he is doing aerobics:

Bush Aerobics

http://politicalhumor.about.com/libr...shaerobics.htm

Ahmadinejad challenged Bush, but Bush's handlers refused
Quote:

No 'steel-cage, grudge match' between Bush, Ahmadinejad

CNN) -- President Bush and his Iranian counterpart, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, may find themselves in the same place later this month, but a White House official shot down the prospect that the two men would engage one another, face-to-face.

The Iranian president may visit New York as part of the United Nations' annual gathering of world leaders. President Bush himself attended and -- like Ahmadinejad -- spoke at the U.N. last year.

Ahmadinejad himself has taken steps to engage the president, sending him a letter earlier this year and, late last month, calling for a "direct television debate" between the leaders. Iran and the United States have been at odds over the former's nuclear program -- which Tehran calls peaceful and legal, and which Washington deems illegal and a dangerous threat -- among other matters. ( Full story )

But White House spokesman Tony Snow, addressing reporters aboard Air Force One on Thursday, said that such a meeting would not happen during Ahmadinejad's U.S. visit.

"There's not going to be a steel-case, grudge match between the [U.S.] president and Ahmadinejad," Snow said, noting that Ahmadinejad's invite would be standard U.N. practice. "The president will deliver his speech, and at some other juncture President Ahmadinejad, if the [U.N.] General Assembly so decides, will speak."

http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/situ...h-between.html

Too bad. Such matches could lead to world peace.
 
MikeyDB
#24
Yes a no-holds-barred head to head in the Octagon....

No wait...that wouldn't work.

Giving George Bush those many "corners" to return to....tooo confusing...
 
Just the Facts
Free Thinker
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_one View Post

But its clear Israel upped the stakes to include civilians first and I'm not going to let misinformed posts which portray Hezbollah as targetting civilians first go unchallenged.

That's very noble of you. Too bad it's wrong though. Hizbollah attacked civilian targets last summer in it's opening salvo. I'm pretty familiar with the facts because I just had a long drawn out discussion on this topic with someone from another board.

Oh wait...that was you, and it was this board!

http://forums.canadiancontent.net/in...ook-world.html
 
normbc9
Conservative
#26
Have any of you been to Iran? I'll bet there isn't 1,000 square mikles of their hundreds of thousand that is tillable agricultural land. The rest ids arid, almost waterless and a hellhole. Otrhre than theoil what else of any value is there in that place? They do have a huge Lapis Lazuli deposit in the north but other than that gemstone there isn't anything there. Compared to the Saudi area when this place runs out of oil they won't even have a camel to produce camel dung for making a campfire. Nor palms tree either. But the gunboat diplomacy of the US has made plenty of trouble for the US military recently and they are stretched banjo string tight right now. If they launch a strike of any kind at Iran it will be sheer stupidity that will show again.
 
Just the Facts
Free Thinker
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by normbc9 View Post

But the gunboat diplomacy of the US has made plenty of trouble for the US military recently and they are stretched banjo string tight right now. If they launch a strike of any kind at Iran it will be sheer stupidity that will show again.

Unfortunately, I think war is inevitable unless something big happens, like a popular revolution in Iran or the second coming of Christ or The Mahdi or something like that. It's just a matter of time. I don't believe it will neccessarily be the U.S. that starts it. It's funny how quick people are in labelling the U.S. policies as "gunboat" etc. but somehow these blood thirsty regimes like the mullahs in Iran are always victims. Take a look around.

Anyway, I think Earth as One is bang on in his comment about proxy war. Hezboallah is very much a product of Iran. I wouldn't exactly call Israel a proxy army of the U.S. but it wouldn't take much to make them one. If you accept that then the fact of the matter is that Iran has ALREADY invaded the U.S.
 
Zzarchov
#28
Israel has never been shown to be targetting civilians directly, and definately not as a policy.

The simplest proof is that there are still lebanese civilians and that in a massive bombing campaign almost none died.

Seriously, maybe you wish Israel was targetting civilians so you say "Haha! Israel has shown its true colours!" , but it hasn't.

A first world nation that wanted to target civilians could whipe out a city in a few hours, hell, a well funded third world country like North Korea could whipe out millions in a few hours.

Even a bunch of unarmed lunatics can cause hundreds of thousands of casualties in a short span of time if they are fighting a similar level of people (see Rwanda)


Quite frankly, you have never proven Israel targetted civilians as a war crime, because they haven't. Because they aren't stupid, if you want to be a rational government who needs international trade, you just can't do that.

That is why even Iran doesn't commit warcrimes, it pays other groups too. Now if you made some solid Proof Israel was paying a proxy group to commit war crimes that might be feasible, but it hasn't, at least not in the last 20 years.
 
Blackleaf
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by JBeee View Post

With the level of paranoia Americans are suffering, makes you wonder exactly who are the real terrorist and whom is winning the `war on terror`

What's there to be "paranoid" about?

In the last few months alone the Iranians have, amongst other things, kidnapped British sailors and marines when they were legally (under a UN resolution) in Iraqi waters.

If that wasn't an act of war against the West by the Iranians then I don't know what is.

One of the main reasons that Canadians don't want to go to war with Iran is that they are a mostly peaceneik, liberal country that is populated mostly by vegetarian, green hippies who, amongst other things, want to make nuclear bombs "for peaceful purposes" and who want their soldiers to sit around all day eating marshmallows rather than fighting important wars against people who wish their destruction (for both of these issues, see the other Canadian politics discussion forum where Canadian have actually put these proposals forward).

Remember that Canada is the nation that gave the world Greenpeace.

In Britain, it's rare that Left-Wing governments get into power. In Canada, it's rare that Right-Wing governments get into power.
 
Just the Facts
Free Thinker
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by Blackleaf View Post

One of the main reasons that Canadians don't want to go to war with Iran is that they are a mostly peaceneik, liberal country that is populated mostly by vegetarian, green hippies who, amongst other things, want to make nuclear bombs "for peaceful purposes" and who want their soldiers to sit around all day eating marshmallows rather than fighting important wars against people who wish their destruction (for both of these issues, see the other Canadian politics discussion forum where Canadian have actually put these proposals forward).

Wow! Where'd that come from? Eat too much spicy Canadian Bacon last night? Pepped up your bangers and mash too much?

Better check your facts...we're not a warmongering people but once we're pushed over the edge Canada has a history (and a present) of being among the fiercest, most formidable fighting forces in the world. Don't make the mistake of judging us by our helicopters, or better yet, our BRITISH submarines that float like an iron sieve.

Quote:

Remember that Canada is the nation that gave the world Greenpeace.

Yeah, those vegetarian green marshmallow eating hippies who would never do anything gutsy like, oh, I don't know, get in front of a harpoon in a dinghy in the middle of the Pacific! lol at your post.

Edit: Even our Hippies have more guts than most people.
 

Similar Threads

143
Our news is lying to us about the Gaza conflict
by earth_as_one | Mar 20th, 2009
37
Is Bush lying about his lies?
by moghrabi | Dec 14th, 2005
132