Israel

Walter
+2
#151
Quote: Originally Posted by NZDoug View Post


The day the US moved the embassy, Israel killed 59 demonstrators in Gaza and wounded 2200.
Thousands and thousands of Gazans went out to the fence on the Israeli boundary every Friday in 2018-2019, and in all, Israeli forces shot and killed 214 protesters, more than 41 of them children. The U.N. office for the coordination of humanitarian affairs in occupied Palestine said that Israel injured more than 36,000 Palestinians during the protests– 8,000 by sniper fire, and another 17,000 by rubber bullets and tear gas.
Many of those injured are still suffering.
Over 7,000 of the live ammunition injuries (some 88 per cent) were limb injuries, followed by injuries to the abdomen and pelvis. Hundred-fifty-six (156) of the limb injuries have resulted in amputations (126 lower limb and 30 upper limb). Out of these, at least 94 cases involved secondary amputations, due to subsequent bone infections.

Why were children brought to a dangerous area?
 
Girth
+1
#152
Quote: Originally Posted by Walter View Post

Why were children brought to a dangerous area?


Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups were notorious for strategically placing their base operations as to, or inside Hospitals, Day Cares, Nursing Homes, and Elementary Schools. They do this, so when the Mossad gets wind of the location of their terrorist operatives, and bombs the location, children, the elderly, or other innocent civilians are indirectly hurt or killed.

Then Palestinian groups exploit the situation by filming the dead and injured, in an attempt to sway World opinion. This has been happening for at least 30 years.
 
Walter
+1
#153
Quote: Originally Posted by Girth View Post

Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups were notorious for strategically placing their base operations as to, or inside Hospitals, Day Cares, Nursing Homes, and Elementary Schools. They do this, so when the Mossad gets wind of the location of their terrorist operatives, and bombs the location, children, the elderly, or other innocent civilians are indirectly hurt or killed.
Then Palestinian groups exploit the situation by filming the dead and injured, in an attempt to sway World opinion. This has been happening for at least 30 years.

I never knew. You mean the Muzzies fight dirty. What about the Geneva convention.
 
Girth
+1
#154
Quote: Originally Posted by petros View Post

Things were going okay until the crash of the Soviet Union. Israel was flooded with E. European immigrants that American Jews didnt want in their cities so they started sticking them in illegal West Bank settlements.
Apparently Religion wasn't enough to bind them as one.

Germany, of all places, took over 100,000 Jews from the former Soviet Union. Then, in 1997, the Israeli Ambassador to Germany instructed the Germans to not take any more Jews into the country.
 
Serryah
Free Thinker
+1
#155
So question: just how far back is anyone allowed to go to the original 'ownership' of the land that Israel now sits on?

Do we only go so far back as when the Jewish people originally took it over?

What about when they lost it? Where does that factor in? Did they still 'own' the land then?

Why are so many people FOR an establishment of a Jewish state? Is it religious reasons, or because you just think it's owed to them because of WWII? Or is it because after WWII, they got the land so just let them have it? Or is it those things and then a way to 'stick it' to the Arab nations around them?

Genuinely curious here.
 
Walter
+3
#156
How many thousands of years should we go back to see who the rightful owners are of any land in the world?
 
Serryah
Free Thinker
+1
#157
Quote: Originally Posted by Walter View Post

How many thousands of years should we go back to see who the rightful owners are of any land in the world?


Exactly my point.


I hear the claim from those that support Israel's founding that "They owned the land". But they didn't. They lost it. So that's why the question.

Why did Israel get the land they did?
 
pgs
Free Thinker
+3
#158
Quote: Originally Posted by Serryah View Post

Exactly my point.


I hear the claim from those that support Israel's founding that "They owned the land". But they didn't. They lost it. So that's why the question.

Why did Israel get the land they did?

Good point , try it with native Americans . How far back do there claims go ?
 
gerryh
+4
#159
Quote: Originally Posted by Serryah View Post

Exactly my point.
I hear the claim from those that support Israel's founding that "They owned the land". But they didn't. They lost it. So that's why the question.
Why did Israel get the land they did?


Because of the surrounding Arab countries, the palis are lucky they have what they have considering they "lost" it all in '67.
 
NZDoug
Free Thinker
+1
#160
Quote: Originally Posted by Serryah View Post

So question: just how far back is anyone allowed to go to the original 'ownership' of the land that Israel now sits on?
Do we only go so far back as when the Jewish people originally took it over?
What about when they lost it? Where does that factor in? Did they still 'own' the land then?
Why are so many people FOR an establishment of a Jewish state? Is it religious reasons, or because you just think it's owed to them because of WWII? Or is it because after WWII, they got the land so just let them have it? Or is it those things and then a way to 'stick it' to the Arab nations around them?
Genuinely curious here.

A good question.
Israel has evidence of the earliest migration of hominids out of Africa.
Would it have fair to give Tanganyika to the Jewish people as suggested in 1948?
If it goes back to biblical times, does that mean Norway has a legitmate owner ship of Great Britain as the Celts were conquorors?
In modern times which have countries and laws, , is it the French Revolution?
Is it the Franco Prussian War of 1870?
Look at the mess of Alsace Lorraine, as it tugged of was in ownership in every European battle since 1870.
The Balfour Declaration promised a Jewish state sharing in Palestine in 1917 to allow American interests to enter WW1.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration
I think the creation of modern Israel was legitimate when it was formed by Decaration of Independance in May 14, 1948 and admitted to on May 11, 1949 the United Nations.
 
Girth
+4
#161
Q: Why do Jewish men get circumcised?
A: Because Jewish women won't touch anything unless it's 20% off.
 
NZDoug
Free Thinker
#162
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh View Post

Because of the surrounding Arab countries, the palis are lucky they have what they have considering they "lost" it all in '67.

Israel has always done first strike which was the greatest sin according to the Nuremburg War Trails, and any attempt to enforce that crime has been vetoed by USA in the United Nations.
The Nuremburg Principals.
":Principle VI
The crimes hereinafter set out are punishable as crimes under international law:
(a) Crimes against peace:
(i) Planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances;
(ii) Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the acts mentioned under (i).
(b) War crimes:
Violations of the laws or customs of war which include, but are not limited to, murder, ill-treatment or deportation to slave labor or for any other purpose of civilian population of or in occupied territory; murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war or persons on the Seas, killing of hostages, plunder of public or private property, wanton destruction of cities, towns, or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity.
(c) Crimes against humanity:
Murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation and other inhumane acts done against any civilian population, or persecutions on political, racial, or religious grounds, when such acts are done or such persecutions are carried on in execution of or in connection with any crime against peace or any war crime.
Principle VII
Complicity in the commission of a crime against peace, a war crime, or a crime against humanity as set forth in Principle VI is a crime under international law."
more
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_principles
......................................
Israel was armed and guided by the U.S. for destabilizing the Middle east for oil.
"The Truman Administration promulgated the Tripartite Declaration of 1950 for these reasons, as well as to guarantee the territorial status quo determined by 1949 Armistice Agreements. Israel's main military patron at the time was France, which supported Israel by providing it with advanced military equipment and technology, such as the Dassault Mystère fighter-bomber aircraft. Initially, the U.S. government resisted pressure by Israel and Arab countries in the region to sell them advanced weapons. In response to the supply of advanced fighter aircraft by the USSR to Iraq and the United Arab Republic, the U.S. government agreed to sell MIM-23 Hawk anti-aircraft missiles to Israel in 1962, as a "specific action designed to meet a specific situation" which "by no means constitutes change in U.S. policy in area.". The Hawk system was approved on the grounds that it was a "purely defensive" weapon.[8] Later, when Jordan threatened to turn to the USSR for weapons, the U.S. agreed to sell tanks and jet aircraft to Jordan in order to prevent the spread of Soviet influence, and in return, agreed to sell similar systems to Israel.
During the early 1960s, the U.S. government sought to establish a regional arms limitation agreement in the Middle East. The initiative lost steam in early 1965 after it was disclosed that the U.S. had been indirectly supplying weapons to Israel via West Germany since 1962, under the terms of a 1960 secret agreement to supply Israel with $80 million worth of armaments. The remainder of the agreement was fulfilled publicly, following its disclosure by the U.S., with Israel receiving shipments of M48 Patton tanks in 1965 and A-4E Skyhawk attack aircraft in 1968."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel...tary_relations
 
gerryh
+4
#163
Quote: Originally Posted by NZDoug View Post

Israel has always done first strike which was the greatest sin according to the Nuremburg War Trails, and any attempt to enforce that crime has been vetoed by USA in the United Nations.
The Nuremburg Principals.
":Principle VI
The crimes hereinafter set out are punishable as crimes under international law:
(a) Crimes against peace:
(i) Planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances;
(ii) Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the acts mentioned under (i).
(b) War crimes:
Violations of the laws or customs of war which include, but are not limited to, murder, ill-treatment or deportation to slave labor or for any other purpose of civilian population of or in occupied territory; murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war or persons on the Seas, killing of hostages, plunder of public or private property, wanton destruction of cities, towns, or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity.
(c) Crimes against humanity:
Murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation and other inhumane acts done against any civilian population, or persecutions on political, racial, or religious grounds, when such acts are done or such persecutions are carried on in execution of or in connection with any crime against peace or any war crime.
Principle VII
Complicity in the commission of a crime against peace, a war crime, or a crime against humanity as set forth in Principle VI is a crime under international law."
more
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_principles
......................................
Israel was armed and guided by the U.S. for destabilizing the Middle east for oil.
"The Truman Administration promulgated the Tripartite Declaration of 1950 for these reasons, as well as to guarantee the territorial status quo determined by 1949 Armistice Agreements. Israel's main military patron at the time was France, which supported Israel by providing it with advanced military equipment and technology, such as the Dassault Mystère fighter-bomber aircraft. Initially, the U.S. government resisted pressure by Israel and Arab countries in the region to sell them advanced weapons. In response to the supply of advanced fighter aircraft by the USSR to Iraq and the United Arab Republic, the U.S. government agreed to sell MIM-23 Hawk anti-aircraft missiles to Israel in 1962, as a "specific action designed to meet a specific situation" which "by no means constitutes change in U.S. policy in area.". The Hawk system was approved on the grounds that it was a "purely defensive" weapon.[8] Later, when Jordan threatened to turn to the USSR for weapons, the U.S. agreed to sell tanks and jet aircraft to Jordan in order to prevent the spread of Soviet influence, and in return, agreed to sell similar systems to Israel.
During the early 1960s, the U.S. government sought to establish a regional arms limitation agreement in the Middle East. The initiative lost steam in early 1965 after it was disclosed that the U.S. had been indirectly supplying weapons to Israel via West Germany since 1962, under the terms of a 1960 secret agreement to supply Israel with $80 million worth of armaments. The remainder of the agreement was fulfilled publicly, following its disclosure by the U.S., with Israel receiving shipments of M48 Patton tanks in 1965 and A-4E Skyhawk attack aircraft in 1968."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel...tary_relations

What's your point, numbnuts. Doesnt change the fact that isreal defended itself against three muslim countries to expand its territory significantly. Then returned the majority of that expanded territory instead of saying screw you and keeping it as spoils of war.
 
Girth
+1
#164
I think once the pandemic is over, Israel should annex 100% of the West Bank, and give the Arabs a choice:

1. leave the West Bank
2. be killed

This would be great for the region, and it would permanently shut up all those Palestinians, since they will have no country to return to. Maybe they can just be written out of history.
 
NZDoug
Free Thinker
#165
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh View Post

What's your point, numbnuts. Doesnt change the fact that isreal defended itself against three muslim countries to expand its territory significantly. Then returned the majority of that expanded territory instead of saying screw you and keeping it as spoils of war.

My point.
Annexation is an illegal act.
.............................................
Annexation (Latin ad, to, and nexus, joining) is the administrative action[1] and concept in international law relating to the forcible acquisition of one state's territory by another state and is generally held to be an illegal act.[2] It is distinct from conquest, which refers to the acquisition of control over a territory involving a change of sovereignty,[3][4] and differs from cession, in which territory is given or sold through treaty, since annexation is a unilateral act where territory is seized and held by one state.[5] It usually follows military occupation of a territory.
Annexation can be legitimized via general recognition by international bodies (i.e. other countries and intergovernmental organisations).
.........................................
Protection of civilians
During World War II, the use of annexation deprived whole populations of the safeguards provided by international laws governing military occupations.
The Fourth Geneva Convention (GCIV) of 1949 amplified the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907 with respect to the question of the protection of civilians.[11]
The authors of the Fourth Geneva Convention made a point of giving the rules regarding inviolability of rights "an absolute character",[12] thus making it much more difficult for a state to bypass international law through the use of annexation.[12] GCIV Article 47, in the first paragraph in Section III: Occupied territories, restricted the effects of annexation on the rights of persons within those territories:
Protected persons who are in occupied territory shall not be deprived, in any case or in any manner whatsoever, of the benefits of the present Convention by any change introduced, as the result of the occupation of a territory, into the institutions or government of the said territory, nor by any agreement concluded between the authorities of the occupied territories and the Occupying Power, nor by any annexation by the latter of the whole or part of the occupied territory.
...........................................
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation
 
gerryh
+4
#166
Quote: Originally Posted by NZDoug View Post

My point.
Annexation is an illegal act.
.............................................
Annexation (Latin ad, to, and nexus, joining) is the administrative action[1] and concept in international law relating to the forcible acquisition of one state's territory by another state and is generally held to be an illegal act.[2] It is distinct from conquest, which refers to the acquisition of control over a territory involving a change of sovereignty,[3][4] and differs from cession, in which territory is given or sold through treaty, since annexation is a unilateral act where territory is seized and held by one state.[5] It usually follows military occupation of a territory.
Annexation can be legitimized via general recognition by international bodies (i.e. other countries and intergovernmental organisations).
.........................................
Protection of civilians
During World War II, the use of annexation deprived whole populations of the safeguards provided by international laws governing military occupations.
The Fourth Geneva Convention (GCIV) of 1949 amplified the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907 with respect to the question of the protection of civilians.[11]
The authors of the Fourth Geneva Convention made a point of giving the rules regarding inviolability of rights "an absolute character",[12] thus making it much more difficult for a state to bypass international law through the use of annexation.[12] GCIV Article 47, in the first paragraph in Section III: Occupied territories, restricted the effects of annexation on the rights of persons within those territories:
Protected persons who are in occupied territory shall not be deprived, in any case or in any manner whatsoever, of the benefits of the present Convention by any change introduced, as the result of the occupation of a territory, into the institutions or government of the said territory, nor by any agreement concluded between the authorities of the occupied territories and the Occupying Power, nor by any annexation by the latter of the whole or part of the occupied territory.
...........................................
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation


And who exactly would be enforcing these "international" laws?
 
B00Mer
No Party Affiliation
+3
#167
Quote: Originally Posted by Serryah View Post

Exactly my point.
I hear the claim from those that support Israel's founding that "They owned the land". But they didn't. They lost it. So that's why the question.
Why did Israel get the land they did?

They needed a homeland after the way the world turned a blind eye and allowed millions to be killed.


Quote: Originally Posted by pgs View Post

Good point , try it with native Americans . How far back do there claims go ?

First off all, they lost a war and under treaty were given land to live on..

Let talk about stolen lands..

California, Arizona, Nevada, Utah, Colorado, Wyoming, Texas stolen from Mexico by the USA.

https://academic.udayton.edu/race/02rights/guadalu3.htm

While we are giving back lands.. lets give those states back to Mexico
 
NZDoug
Free Thinker
#168
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh View Post

And who exactly would be enforcing these "international" laws?

Sheldon Adelson via Trump.
................................
The billionaire casino owner Sheldon Adelson, an ardent pro-Israel conservative, is expected to donate at least $100m to boost Donald Trump’s 2020 re-election efforts and Republican congressional candidates this fall, say three Republican fundraisers familiar with Adelson’s initial plans.
Adelson’s hefty checks are expected to be written to several Super Pacs – political groups that have to disclose their donors – as well as “dark money” not-for-profit organizations that can keep their donors secret, say the fundraisers.
………..
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...icans-congress
United States policy at the UN
See also:
United States and the United Nations and Negroponte doctrine
The U.S. has vetoed over forty condemnatory Security Council resolutions against Israel;
Almost all U.S. vetos cast since 1988 blocked resolutions against Israel, on the basis of their lack of condemnation of Palestinian terrorist groups, actions, and incitement. This policy, known as the Negroponte doctrine, has drawn both praise and criticism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel...United_Nations
The Negroponte Doctrine.
On July 26, 2002, John Negroponte, the United States Ambassador to the United Nations, stated (during a closed meeting of the UN Security Council) that the United States will oppose Security Council resolutions concerning the Israeli–Palestinian conflict that condemn Israel without also condemning terrorist groups. This became known as the Negroponte Doctrine, and has been viewed by officials in the United States as a counterweight to the frequent resolutions denouncing Israel that are passed by the UN General Assembly.
Widely reported summaries of Negroponte's statement (an official transcript of these closed-session remarks does not appear to have been released) have stated that for any resolution to go forward, the United States, which has a veto in the 15-nation council, would expect it to have the following four elements:
* A strong and explicit condemnation of all terrorism and incitement to terrorism;
* A condemnation by name of the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade, Islamic Jihad and Hamas, groups that have claimed responsibility for suicide attacks on Israel;
* An appeal to all parties for a political settlement of the crisis;
* A demand for improvement of the security situation as a condition for any call for a withdrawal of Israeli armed forces to positions they held before the September 2000 start of the Second intifada
More
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negroponte_doctrine
This is what Hamas is guilty of.
Who created Hamas?
Israel did to divide Yassir Arafat and the P.L.O.
 
B00Mer
No Party Affiliation
+3
#169
What happen no more goats in New Zealand .. you spend so much time on CC.
 
B00Mer
No Party Affiliation
+1
#170
Quote: Originally Posted by NZDoug View Post


The day the US moved the embassy, Israel killed 59 demonstrators in Gaza and wounded 2200.
Thousands and thousands of Gazans went out to the fence on the Israeli boundary every Friday in 2018-2019, and in all, Israeli forces shot and killed 214 protesters, more than 41 of them children. The U.N. office for the coordination of humanitarian affairs in occupied Palestine said that Israel injured more than 36,000 Palestinians during the protests– 8,000 by sniper fire, and another 17,000 by rubber bullets and tear gas.
Many of those injured are still suffering.
Over 7,000 of the live ammunition injuries (some 88 per cent) were limb injuries, followed by injuries to the abdomen and pelvis. Hundred-fifty-six (156) of the limb injuries have resulted in amputations (126 lower limb and 30 upper limb). Out of these, at least 94 cases involved secondary amputations, due to subsequent bone infections.

Good for Israel. But I think they may be slacking.. If you're stupid enough to attack an embassy and put yourself in that situation you deserve to be dead.

BLM is trying to do the same within the USA with their Maxisit leaders.

What needs to be done is the Black Plague and COVID-19 mix and take out 2/3 's of the world population..
 
taxslave
Free Thinker
+1
#171
Quote: Originally Posted by Serryah View Post

So question: just how far back is anyone allowed to go to the original 'ownership' of the land that Israel now sits on?
Do we only go so far back as when the Jewish people originally took it over?
What about when they lost it? Where does that factor in? Did they still 'own' the land then?
Why are so many people FOR an establishment of a Jewish state? Is it religious reasons, or because you just think it's owed to them because of WWII? Or is it because after WWII, they got the land so just let them have it? Or is it those things and then a way to 'stick it' to the Arab nations around them?
Genuinely curious here.

The same questions apply to native land claims in Canada.
 
taxslave
Free Thinker
+2
#172
Quote: Originally Posted by Girth View Post

I think once the pandemic is over, Israel should annex 100% of the West Bank, and give the Arabs a choice:
1. leave the West Bank
2. be killed
This would be great for the region, and it would permanently shut up all those Palestinians, since they will have no country to return to. Maybe they can just be written out of history.

Give them the option of converting. Or they could just peacefully coexist. But they would have to become civilized first.
 
taxslave
Free Thinker
+1
#173
Quote: Originally Posted by B00Mer View Post

They needed a homeland after the way the world turned a blind eye and allowed millions to be killed.
First off all, they lost a war and under treaty were given land to live on..
Let talk about stolen lands..
California, Arizona, Nevada, Utah, Colorado, Wyoming, Texas stolen from Mexico by the USA.
https://academic.udayton.edu/race/02rights/guadalu3.htm
While we are giving back lands.. lets give those states back to Mexico

doubt Mexico would accept unless all the riff raff were cleared out of California first.
 
Rue
+3
#174
LLP[QUOTE=Serryah;2813808]No I'm not.
the world gave the original state of Israel to the Jewish population out of collective guilt of the holocaust, and not wanting to have that pinned on them anymore. It was a bribe. At the time representatives of the Palestinians tried to say that this was Palestinian land, no one gave a shyte because no one gave a shyte and the world just said "here".

/QUOTE]

No. In fact Britain was given a mandate from the League of Nations to administer the Middle East and theirmandate was to create a Jewish and a Muslim state based on the indigenous rights of the Jews and Muslims in that area long before the holocaust. This was not based on guilt or any concept of giving. It was based on recognizing already existing societies and helping them form governments to administer their respective societies. You do not give something you do not own. Britain never owned anything to give anyone.

In fact Faisal the head of the most powerful Arab tribes in Damascus and Chaim Weitzman on behalf of the Jews agreed to two nations side by side in the late 1920's.The British and French did not want this because it interfered with their oil agenda. So the French lied to Faisal thd day before the agreement was to be decided and said the Jews would not honour their agreement. Faisal believed them and ripped up the agreement. The very day after that the French arrested Faisal and imprisoned him.

Then the French and British under the Picot agreement divided up the Middle East. France created Lebanon and Syria as French colonial states from Assyria and took 5% of northern Palestinian territory for both nations. Britain then created Transjordan from 85% of Palestine and where Jordan is today. These three countries were created in direct violation of Britain's mandate.Jews were ignored. One son of Faisal was made King of Jordan to placate Faisal. His other son was made king of a second state called Iraq forcefully by taking a Kurdish area, a Shiite area and a Sunni area and jamming them into Iraq. Then the rest of Faisal's family was given another state called Saudi Arabia and the West propped a Shah in Iran.

All these states were created not Israel.

Jordan was created as the Palestinian state with a consitution prohibiting any Jew from being a citizen or owning land. In fact in all Muslim Middle East states to this day, Jews can not own land nor are they considered as equal in legal status as Muslims.

In fact the League of Nations called a meeting to remove Britain and undo the creation of these states but on the day of the meeting WW2 broke out and the League ceased to exist. In fact Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq sided with Hitler and Arabs took to wearing the Hitler mustache and these nations created armies and mukhbarat police based on the Gestapo.The Mufti of Jerusalem was placed in a home stolen from Jews in Berlin as a guest of Hitler during WW2 and broadcast daily back to Jerusalem telling the people to wipe out its Jews. He actively lobbied Himmler to use gas to more quickly kill Jews.

After WW2 Jews were abandon by the UN and world. Only the US and France allowed reunification of their existing Jewish citizens with survivors.Jews fled the camps and Europe to Palestine joining Jews who had lived their continuously since Biblical days precisely because this was their indigenous land. They did not invade as colonialists. They came as survivors of Western colonialism. No one gave them a damn thing.They were joined by Jews fleeing Muslim Sharia Law nations that openly segregated them and would not allow them to own land or any property and enforce dhimmitude or apartheid on them.

No one gave these Jews anything. In Jews agreed to a modified Balfour declaration assigning less than 6% of Palestine for a nation. The Arab League said no forcing Israel to make a unilateral declaration of independence. The Arab League of Nations armies, all armies of French or British colonies declared war. In fact the British led and trained the Royal Jordanian Army into battle as it did the other armies. French officers also assisted as well as German Nazis who moved to Egypt, Syria and Iraq after Ww2 and ran their police and armies.They lost this war.

Fair? Explain why when a Jew moves to Palestine he is an invader but when a Muslim does he is defined auto ethically as a Palestinian?

Bottom line, this matter can and will be decided by Palestinians and Israelis, not you, me or people who presume to know and speak of or for them.

To date the collective Arab world still can not accept the concept of a Jewish state but in thd next breath sees no problem recognizing Muslim Sharia Law states.

Israel was created as an existential survival response to a direct threat of extinction by both Muslim and Christian nations.
 
Girth
+2
#175
Quote: Originally Posted by Rue View Post

Fair? Explain why when a Jew moves to Palestine he is an invader but when a Muslim does he is defined auto ethically as a Palestinian?
Bottom line, this matter can and will be decided by Palestinians and Israelis, not you, me or people who presume to know and speak of or for them.
To date the collective Arab world still can not accept the concept of a Jewish state but in thd next breath sees no problem recognizing Muslim Sharia Law states.
Israel was created as an existential survival response to a direct threat of extinction by both Muslim and Christian nations.

Exactly. Israel needs to exist, so people like Nut Zone Doug cannot wipe them off the map.

Countries have been annexing land from other countries since the beginning of time, but it is only the anti-Semites that take issue when Israel doing so, usually after the surrounding Arab countries try to destroy the Jewish state by war.
 
Girth
+3
#176
Quote: Originally Posted by NZDoug View Post

Who created Hamas? Israel did to divide Yassir Arafat and the P.L.O.

What a bunch of BS. How can you believe this garbage?
 
Rue
+4
#177
Quote: Originally Posted by NZDoug View Post

In 1947, the United Nations (UN) adopted a Partition Plan for Palestine recommending the creation of independent Arab and Jewish states and an internationalized Jerusalem.

Your history is selective. There were many proposals all rejected by the Arab League of Nations. You alsoignore who created Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Saudia Arabia and why. Further your contention Israel was created for American oil interests is stupid. The US created alliances with Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, for its oil not Israel. Israel became a strategic old war ally to the US after Egypt, Syria and Iraq turned to the Soviets for assistance in the 60's. Europe and
the US always had oil alliances with oil producers in the ME and still do.
 
NZDoug
Free Thinker
#178
Quote: Originally Posted by Girth View Post

What a bunch of BS. How can you believe this garbage?

Ya!
Its so weird!
.............................
At the time, Israel's main enemy was the late Yasser Arafat's Fatah party, which formed the heart of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO). Fatah was secular and cast in the mold of other revolutionary, leftist guerrilla movements waging insurgencies elsewhere in the world during the Cold War. The PLO carried out assassinations and kidnappings and, although recognized by neighboring Arab states, was considered a terrorist organization by Israel; PLO operatives in the occupied territories faced brutal repression at the hands of the Israeli security state.
Meanwhile, the activities of Islamists affiliated with Egypt's banned Muslim Brotherhood were allowed in the open in Gaza — a radical departure from when the Strip was administered by the secular-nationalist Egyptian government of Gamal Abdel Nasser. Egypt lost control of Gaza to Israel after the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, which saw Israel also seize the West Bank. In 1966, Nasser had executed Sayyid Qutb, one of the Brotherhood's leading intellectuals. The Israelis saw Qutb's adherents in the Palestinian territories, including the wheelchair-bound Sheik Ahmed Yassin, as a useful counterweight to Arafat's PLO.
"When I look back at the chain of events I think we made a mistake," one Israeli official who had worked in Gaza in the 1980s said in a 2009 interview with the Wall Street Journal's Andrew Higgins. "But at the time nobody thought about the possible results."
Higgins's article is worth reading in full. He goes on to outline the type of assistance the Israelis initially gave Yassin, whom the PLO at one time deemed a "collaborator," and Gaza's other Islamists:
Israel's military-led administration in Gaza looked favorably on the paraplegic cleric, who set up a wide network of schools, clinics, a library and kindergartens. Sheikh Yassin formed the Islamist group Mujama al-Islamiya, which was officially recognized by Israel as a charity and then, in 1979, as an association. Israel also endorsed the establishment of the Islamic University of Gaza, which it now regards as a hotbed of militancy. The university was one of the first targets hit by Israeli warplanes in the [2008-9 Operation Cast Lead].
Yassin's Mujama would become Hamas, which, it can be argued, was Israel's Taliban: an Islamist group whose antecedents had been laid down by the West in a battle against a leftist enemy. Israel jailed Yassin in 1984 on a 12-year sentence after the discovery of hidden arms caches, but he was released a year later. The Israelis must have been more worried about other enemies.
more
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-create-hamas/
"Bend down low, let me tell what I know,
You reap what you sow"
Bob Marley
 
Girth
#179
Quote: Originally Posted by NZDoug View Post

Ya!
Its so weird!
.............................
At the time, Israel's main enemy was the late Yasser Arafat's Fatah party, which formed the heart of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO). Fatah was secular and cast in the mold of other revolutionary, leftist guerrilla movements waging insurgencies elsewhere in the world during the Cold War. The PLO carried out assassinations and kidnappings and, although recognized by neighboring Arab states, was considered a terrorist organization by Israel; PLO operatives in the occupied territories faced brutal repression at the hands of the Israeli security state.
Meanwhile, the activities of Islamists affiliated with Egypt's banned Muslim Brotherhood were allowed in the open in Gaza — a radical departure from when the Strip was administered by the secular-nationalist Egyptian government of Gamal Abdel Nasser. Egypt lost control of Gaza to Israel after the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, which saw Israel also seize the West Bank. In 1966, Nasser had executed Sayyid Qutb, one of the Brotherhood's leading intellectuals. The Israelis saw Qutb's adherents in the Palestinian territories, including the wheelchair-bound Sheik Ahmed Yassin, as a useful counterweight to Arafat's PLO.
"When I look back at the chain of events I think we made a mistake," one Israeli official who had worked in Gaza in the 1980s said in a 2009 interview with the Wall Street Journal's Andrew Higgins. "But at the time nobody thought about the possible results."
Higgins's article is worth reading in full. He goes on to outline the type of assistance the Israelis initially gave Yassin, whom the PLO at one time deemed a "collaborator," and Gaza's other Islamists:
Israel's military-led administration in Gaza looked favorably on the paraplegic cleric, who set up a wide network of schools, clinics, a library and kindergartens. Sheikh Yassin formed the Islamist group Mujama al-Islamiya, which was officially recognized by Israel as a charity and then, in 1979, as an association. Israel also endorsed the establishment of the Islamic University of Gaza, which it now regards as a hotbed of militancy. The university was one of the first targets hit by Israeli warplanes in the [2008-9 Operation Cast Lead].
Yassin's Mujama would become Hamas, which, it can be argued, was Israel's Taliban: an Islamist group whose antecedents had been laid down by the West in a battle against a leftist enemy. Israel jailed Yassin in 1984 on a 12-year sentence after the discovery of hidden arms caches, but he was released a year later. The Israelis must have been more worried about other enemies.
more
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-create-hamas/
"Bend down low, let me tell what I know,
You reap what you sow"
Bob Marley

 
NZDoug
Free Thinker
#180
Thank you Banksie!
https://www.theguardian.com/global-d...y-in-bethlehem
https://youtu.be/B2_0HAYzba4
 

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