Ottawa says Ontario's call to drop retaliatory tariffs would mean 'surrender'


White_Unifier
+1
#1
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...iffs-1.5004736
Let me get this straight. The US raised tariffs against Canada and so essentially shot itself in the foot in the process. Well, we can't have that, so Canada retaliated by raising retaliatory tariffs and so essentially shot itself in the foot in retaliation.
Ontario and Quebec are now asking Ottawa to stop shooting Canada in the foot and Ottawa says it refuses to do that since to do so would equal surrendering to the US.
Did I miss anything here?

To be honest, even if Canada unilaterally dropped its tariffs against the US and the US didn't reciprocate, so what? Just because Trump is dumb enough to hurt US consumers doesn't mean Canada needs to act equally dumb so as to hurt Canadian consumers too. Let Trump do his thing, but Canada should focus on wise economic policy, not economic emotionalism.
 
taxslave
#2
I don't see where these tarrifs would hurt Canadians any. WE produce steel and aluminum in Canada.It should help Canadian workers if anything because there will be more demand for our products.
 
White_Unifier
#3
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslave View Post

I don't see where these tarrifs would hurt Canadians any. WE produce steel and aluminum in Canada.It should help Canadian workers if anything because there will be more demand for our products.

No wonder you're a tax slave! You don't recognize a tax when it slaps you in the face. Tariffs are taxes on consumers, aren't they?
 
B00Mer
+1
#4
Glad when we can get rid of that thong wearing closet faggot PM we have.
 
White_Unifier
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by B00Mer View Post

Glad when we can get rid of that thong wearing closet faggot PM we have.

How do you know he wears a thong and how do you know he's secretly homoesexual. Do you know something we don't?
 
Hoid
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by White_Unifier View Post

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...iffs-1.5004736

Did I miss anything here?

you missed the part where Canadian steel (for instance) became more expensive for Americans to buy.

the countervailing tariffs make US steel the same price as Canadian steel therefore evening the playing again.

without the countervailing tariff everyone would just buy the cheaper us steel.

this is purely a cash exchange that will have no bearing on the actual market realities of steel or other metals.
 
Twin_Moose
+1
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by White_Unifier View Post

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...iffs-1.5004736
Let me get this straight. The US raised tariffs against Canada and so essentially shot itself in the foot in the process. Well, we can't have that, so Canada retaliated by raising retaliatory tariffs and so essentially shot itself in the foot in retaliation.
Ontario and Quebec are now asking Ottawa to stop shooting Canada in the foot and Ottawa says it refuses to do that since to do so would equal surrendering to the US.
Did I miss anything here?
To be honest, even if Canada unilaterally dropped its tariffs against the US and the US didn't reciprocate, so what? Just because Trump is dumb enough to hurt US consumers doesn't mean Canada needs to act equally dumb so as to hurt Canadian consumers too. Let Trump do his thing, but Canada should focus on wise economic policy, not economic emotionalism.

You missed a lot sorry to inform you see below where I have to reteach Hoid.

Quote: Originally Posted by Hoid View Post

you missed the part where Canadian steel (for instance) became more expensive for Americans to buy.
the countervailing tariffs make US steel the same price as Canadian steel therefore evening the playing again.
without the countervailing tariff everyone would just buy the cheaper us steel.
this is purely a cash exchange that will have no bearing on the actual market realities of steel or other metals.

You got it exactly backwards The tariffs are paid to the US treasury to make our steel cost as much or a little more than US steel. Hoid our steel and aluminum is cheaper to buy than US produced steel and aluminum Trump is trying to stimulate the economy by making domestic steel as attractive as foreign steel. By putting more people to work and putting money in their pockets spreads the wealth more than putting the money into the pockets of brokers that keeps the work in Canada (or whatever country is under tariffs)

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I know you still won't understand, hang in there you will get it one of these days Lol
 
Hoid
#8
The tariffs were imposed to make Canadian products more expensive than American products.

You seem to get that.
 
Twin_Moose
+2
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by Hoid View Post

you missed the part where Canadian steel (for instance) became more expensive for Americans to buy.
the countervailing tariffs make US steel the same price as Canadian steel therefore evening the playing again.
without the countervailing tariff everyone would just buy the cheaper us steel.
this is purely a cash exchange that will have no bearing on the actual market realities of steel or other metals.

Quote: Originally Posted by Hoid View Post

The tariffs were imposed to make Canadian products more expensive than American products.
You seem to get that.

I think it is you that is starting to catch on, possibly? Lol
 
taxslave
+2
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by White_Unifier View Post

No wonder you're a tax slave! You don't recognize a tax when it slaps you in the face. Tariffs are taxes on consumers, aren't they?

Yes and no. This one is a bit more complicated than that because certain Canadian suppliers were importing cheap China steel and then exporting it to the US as made in Canada. No tarrifs only works when the two countries have the same standard of living and environmental laws. SO by exporting manufacturing jobs you also destroy the market since a good portion of the workforce no longer has any purchacing power. The only winners in all this are government employees who are protected from economic realities.
 
White_Unifier
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslave View Post

Yes and no. This one is a bit more complicated than that because certain Canadian suppliers were importing cheap China steel and then exporting it to the US as made in Canada. No tarrifs only works when the two countries have the same standard of living and environmental laws. SO by exporting manufacturing jobs you also destroy the market since a good portion of the workforce no longer has any purchacing power. The only winners in all this are government employees who are protected from economic realities.

Let's just call it a special-interest tax. I don't oppose taxes per se, but I'd prefer them to be more rational. A tariff stands among the worst taxes a government can impose on an economy since it deters economies of scale and specialization among other things.
 
Twin_Moose
+2
#12
On the most part it is actually protecting the local economy, what you want is to save money at the expense of the local economy.

What do/did you do for a living so it can be explained better for you?
 
White_Unifier
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by Twin_Moose View Post

On the most part it is actually protecting the local economy, what you want is to save money at the expense of the local economy.
What do/did you do for a living so it can be explained better for you?

I've moved around for work; so I guess that doesn't make me particularly sympathetic to laws that try to freeze an economy in a time warp. If the local area doesn't have the necessary resources, then move on.
 
Twin_Moose
+1
#14
Doing what? so I can relate it to your trade, remember there are 2 reasons products are cheaper 1) cheaper labour rates 2) cheaper materials used to produce the product.
 
White_Unifier
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by Twin_Moose View Post

Doing what? so I can relate it to your trade, remember there are 2 reasons products are cheaper 1) cheaper labour rates 2) cheaper materials used to produce the product.

I've done translation, interpretation, and bilingual travel planning. At present, I'm doing the latter. I've also worked abroad and in Canada. Tariffs raise my cost of living, which in turn can affect my decision to buy or not, or even whether or not to work in Canada. Granted many factors play a role in this and so my cost of living would need to increase significantly enough before I'd consider moving abroad again, either that or I would need another compelling reason to do so. But it's still a factor I take into account. To take an example, I earned less in Montreal than in Toronto, and yet I actually got further ahead due to the cost of living. That's why cost of living is actually more imporant than wages.
 
Twin_Moose
#16
That actually explains a lot thanks, let's look at your latter what do you think of Expedia, Travelocity, etc. they are your competition right?
 
Twin_Moose
#17
They make you work twice as hard to make sales for a cut rate to be competitive correct?
 
White_Unifier
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by Twin_Moose View Post

That actually explains a lot thanks, let's look at your latter what do you think of Expedia, Travelocity, etc. they are your competition right?

Not entirely. We work on a corporate contract, they focus more on the general public. But I concede that they are our competitors to a degree. Then again, we actually sometimes collaborate with them too.
 
White_Unifier
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by Twin_Moose View Post

They make you work twice as hard to make sales for a cut rate to be competitive correct?

Yes we need to compete, but I'd never ask for the state to block Expedia or travelocity because we can't compete. If we couldn't compete, I'd apply for EI and look for new work. I don't want to punish the consumer. You see how that works?
 
Twin_Moose
#20
But what if they were mandated to open shop the same as you would their costs be as low?
 
petros
+3
#21  Top Rated Post
Quote: Originally Posted by White_Unifier View Post

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...iffs-1.5004736
Let me get this straight. The US raised tariffs against Canada and so essentially shot itself in the foot in the process. Well, we can't have that, so Canada retaliated by raising retaliatory tariffs and so essentially shot itself in the foot in retaliation.
Ontario and Quebec are now asking Ottawa to stop shooting Canada in the foot and Ottawa says it refuses to do that since to do so would equal surrendering to the US.
Did I miss anything here?
To be honest, even if Canada unilaterally dropped its tariffs against the US and the US didn't reciprocate, so what? Just because Trump is dumb enough to hurt US consumers doesn't mean Canada needs to act equally dumb so as to hurt Canadian consumers too. Let Trump do his thing, but Canada should focus on wise economic policy, not economic emotionalism.

When our dollar is deflated on behalf of ON its advantageous for a US company to buy shit grade steel and aluminum through Canada sidestepping US tarrifs on shit steel and aluminium being dumped globally.
Our tarrifs which went in before US tarrifs weren't high enough. The additional US tarrifs plug that hole.
If CBSA and CBP and all agencies that work hard to keep our people and economies safe were further enabled and blocked all dumped shit steel and aluminum there would be no anti-dumping tarrifs enacted by US or Canada.
People have been killed and serious injured by products using the shit steel and aluminium.
Last edited by petros; 2 weeks ago at 05:51 PM..
 
White_Unifier
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by petros View Post

When our dollar is deflated on behalf of ON its advantageous for a US company to buy shit grade steel and aluminum through Canada sidestepping US tarrifs on shit steel and aluminium being dump globally.
Our tarrifs which went in before US tarrifs weren't high enough. The additional US tarrifs plug that hole.
If CBSA and CBP and all agencies that work hard to keep our people and economies safe were further enabled and blocked all dumped shit steel and aluminum there would be no anti-dumping tarrifs enacted by US or Canada.
People have been killed and serious injured by products using the shit steel and aluminium.

How do tariffs keep that steel out if people are still willing to pay the tariff? If it's really a public safety issue, then why not just enforce safety standards? That would prove far more effective in deterring people from buying it because then they wouldn't even be allowed to buy it.

If the US is raising tariffs rather than imposing higher standards, that suggests that their main concern is the price and not the quality. I agree with Canada raising and enforcing standards, but that has nothing to do with tariffs. Tariffs just needlessly raise the cost of living for everyone.
 
White_Unifier
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by Twin_Moose View Post

But what if they were mandated to open shop the same as you would their costs be as low?

What do you mean by 'open shop'? You mean have a physical presence? Why force a business to work less efficiently? Their business model has advantages over ours and disadvantages. In that sense, we focus less on competing and more on specializing in what we do best. They focus on price, we focus on service and more complex travel plans. A market for everyone.
 
petros
+2
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by White_Unifier View Post

How do tariffs keep that steel out if people are still willing to pay the tariff? If it's really a public safety issue, then why not just enforce safety standards? That would prove far more effective in deterring people from buying it because then they wouldn't even be allowed to buy it.
If the US is raising tariffs rather than imposing higher standards, that suggests that their main concern is the price and not the quality. I agree with Canada raising and enforcing standards, but that has nothing to do with tariffs. Tariffs just needlessly raise the cost of living for everyone.

Oh poor you suffering so much it's killing you.

What about the poor schmuck who can't afford the gouging on Canadian auto parts so he buys on eBay and gets a Chinese auto part made with garbage Vietnamese steel and wipes out his and another family when the critical part fails?

Have you ever perused the CITT website to gain a little insight?

You might find articles like this:

Quote:

On September 9, 2015, the Canadian International Trade Tribunal (CITT) advised that they have initiated an inquiry to determine whether the alleged injurious dumping and subsidizing of hot-rolled carbon steel plate and high-strength low-alloy steel plate originating in or exported from Republic of India (India) and the Russian Federation (Russia) have caused injury or retardation or are threatening to cause injury.

The subject goods are described as hot-rolled carbon steel plate and high-strength low-alloy steel plate not further manufactured than hot-rolled, heat-treated or not, in cut lengths, in widths from 24 inches (+/‑ 610 mm) to 152 inches (+/‑ 3,860 mm) inclusive, and thicknesses from 0.187 inches (+/- 4.75 mm) up to and including 3.0 inches (76.2 mm) (with all dimensions being plus or minus allowable tolerances contained in the applicable standards), but excluding plate for use in the manufacture of pipe and tube (also known as skelp), plate in coil form, plate having a rolled, raised figure at regular intervals on the surface (also known as floor plate).

For greater certainty, hot-rolled carbon steel plate and high-strength low-alloy steel plate include steel plate which contains alloys greater than required by recognized industry standards provided that the steel does not meet recognized industry standards for an alloy-grade steel plate.

Any firm wishing to participate in the inquiry must file a notice of participation with the Tribunal no later than September 23, 2015. Written submissions, correspondence and requests for information regarding this notice should be addressed to:

Canadian International Trade Tribunal
15th Floor, 333 Laurier Avenue West
Ottawa, Ontario
K1A 0G7
Telephone: 613-993-3595
Fax: 613-990-2439
E-mail: secretary‑secretaire@citt-tcce.gc.ca

More information can be found on the Canadian International Trade Tribunalís website.

Check the date. This problem predates Trump and PM Stump.
 
White_Unifier
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by petros View Post

Oh poor you suffering so much it's killing you.
What about the poor schmuck who can't afford the gouging on Canadian auto parts so he buys on eBay and gets a Chinese auto part made with garbage Vietnamese steel and wipes out his and another family when the critical part fails?
Have you ever perused the CITT website to gain a little insight?
You might find articles like this:
Check the date. This problem predates Trump and PM Stump.

Like I said, we don't solve that with tariffs but with enforcing higher standards. Tariffs imply that we have no problem with the standard but just want to raise their prices against ours. If the concern really was the quality, then we'd ban it outright, not slap a tariff on it.
 
White_Unifier
#26
I'll take Kinder Surprise as an example. The US doesn't impose any tariff on it. Why you ask? Because it doesn't meet US safety standards as the little toy inside could choke a child. Instead, they just ban it outright, and rightly so. Is that because of protectionism? In this case, no. Even if the business moved its operations to the US, it still wouldn't be allowed to sell that product on the US market. In short, it's not a matter of protectionism but rather of equal enforcement of standards.

The same applies here. Any steel that does not meet Canadian standards should not have a tariff imposed on it. Instead, we should just ban its importation outright. But if it does meet Canadian standards, then there is no reason to impose a tariff on it. Let's not confuse things here. We don't impose a tariff on a product that does not meet our safety standards. We ban it. The purpose of a tariff is not to maintain standards, it's to raise costs.
 
Twin_Moose
+1
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by White_Unifier View Post

What do you mean by 'open shop'? You mean have a physical presence? Why force a business to work less efficiently? Their business model has advantages over ours and disadvantages. In that sense, we focus less on competing and more on specializing in what we do best. They focus on price, we focus on service and more complex travel plans. A market for everyone.

So you can kinda see where I'm going with this, you are not in an economy shaking business so it is a minor thing like you say. Now let's use Petro's example, let's use Canada and China for an example, Iron ore and aluminum cost the same in it's original state (nothing) and let's say the royalties to extract are the same OK still with me? The costs are the same at this point, let's even say they are both using the same equipment, so the costs are the same at this point let's even add a monetary value at the time let's say $10/tonne.


Now the story is going to change a little let's introduce labour let's say Canada average $30/hour and China $3/hour, both countries having 10's of thousands of workers only you have to add by law 15% more workers to the Canadian workforce for health, safety, and quality control. Canada's steel industry costs 350% more than China to produce the same steel.


Now let's look at the effects on the economies I think we can agree that the Canadian workers have a living wage with purchasing power compared to the Chinese hand to mouth to survive wage. Canadian wages allow the worker to purchase merchandise not essential to life creating more jobs in the service sector including company, group, or personal travel, (see what I did there WU?) does the Chinese wage do the same? Canadian wages contribute a lot back to the Gov. in personal, property, and gst taxes. Now this major and minor contributors to the economy maybe viewed as essential to the National economy in the eyes of the Canadian citizen.


Let's go with your 0 tariff theory shall we? Open our country to a Chinese steel dump we wipe out at minimum 3/4 of the Canadian steel economy costing 10's of thousands of jobs and a major blow to the over all economy. While Chinese workers are not only still working hand to mouth but might be looking at a wage reduction due to India steel industry is only paying $0.50/hour

Kinda get what kind of tool a tariff can be to the local economy?
 
White_Unifier
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by Twin_Moose View Post

So you can kinda see where I'm going with this, you are not in an economy shaking business so it is a minor thing like you say. Now let's use Petro's example, let's use Canada and China for an example, Iron ore and aluminum cost the same in it's original state (nothing) and let's say the royalties to extract are the same OK still with me? The costs are the same at this point, let's even say they are both using the same equipment, so the costs are the same at this point let's even add a monetary value at the time let's say $10/tonne.
Now the story is going to change a little let's introduce labour let's say Canada average $30/hour and China $3/hour, both countries having 10's of thousands of workers only you have to add by law 15% more workers to the Canadian workforce for health, safety, and quality control. Canada's steel industry costs 350% more than China to produce the same steel.
Now let's look at the effects on the economies I think we can agree that the Canadian workers have a living wage with purchasing power compared to the Chinese hand to mouth to survive wage. Canadian wages allow the worker to purchase merchandise not essential to life creating more jobs in the service sector including company, group, or personal travel, (see what I did there WU?) does the Chinese wage do the same? Canadian wages contribute a lot back to the Gov. in personal, property, and gst taxes. Now this major and minor contributors to the economy maybe viewed as essential to the National economy in the eyes of the Canadian citizen.
Let's go with your 0 tariff theory shall we? Open our country to a Chinese steel dump we wipe out at minimum 3/4 of the Canadian steel economy costing 10's of thousands of jobs and a major blow to the over all economy. While Chinese workers are not only still working hand to mouth but might be looking at a wage reduction due to India steel industry is only paying $0.50/hour
Kinda get what kind of tool a tariff can be to the local economy?

I actually lived in China. Yes, wages are low, but the cost of living is dirt cheap too. In that sense, while they might not be able to afford imports, they can live a comfortable life as long as they buy domestic.

With that in mind, eliminating tariffs would force Canadians to take a major wage cut. Meanwhile, the sudden boom in China would create labour shortages, overtime, and workers asking for more free time or higher wages. They'd quickly adapt.
 
Twin_Moose
+2
#29
So you are saying phuck the Canadian worker as long as white_unifor gets a better deal?
 
taxslave
+2
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by Twin_Moose View Post

Doing what? so I can relate it to your trade, remember there are 2 reasons products are cheaper 1) cheaper labour rates 2) cheaper materials used to produce the product.

And these days environmental laws and local taxes.
I would rather pay a bit more for a product made in Canada than one made by slave labour with no environmental laws in places like CHina. So anyone that professes to be concerned about the environment should not be buying products from third world countries while protesting economic activity in Canada.