More Ontario running Ottawa good for Alberta!


athabaska
#1
A bunch of us guys were sitting around drinking a few beers after Christmas supper. The election was brought up and we had nine votes for the Conservatives and two for the Green Party. One guy pulled out the Edmonton Sun newspaper and it said that Duceppe will support a minority Liberal governmnet. Then we took a vote how many would support Alberta independence if Ontario governs the country again and Quebec has the hammer. 8 out of 11 said yes, 2 no and one said no opinion.

I wasn't too thrilled with another Ontario governmnet in Ottawa but now I see it as probably better in the long run as it'll speed up Alberta independence.
 
Reverend Blair
#2
Good. F*ck off and leave then. The rest of us tired of hearing all the whining from the minority of Albertans who are ill-educated and greedy enough to think that separation is a real option for them.

Of course, don't be waiting too long for all that natural gas to be coming down from the territories to run your tarsands. We'll be using that to heat our homes in the rest of Canada.

You can forget about any aid when the next drought or flood hits too, and your going to have to spend the billions that Ottawa currently subsidises the oil companies with yourselves. You'll also need a military, a police force, a foreign service. Hell, you'll be needing a lot of things. Like a passport if you want to travel to the rest of Canada.

Once you get sucked up by the United States, and you will, then you can deal with that little reality. Think you are under-represented nationally now? Wait until you find out that Washington doesn't give a flying f*ck about you. Oh, and the US has a National Energy Program. We all know how Albertans like schemes like that. If you thought Trudeau was nasty to you, wait'll Dick Cheney tells you how completely insignificant you are.

So go ahead and separate in a childish tiff because your tiny little population doesn't get to dictate to the rest of Canada.
 
Calberty
#3
Quote: Originally Posted by athabaska

I wasn't too thrilled with another Ontario governmnet in Ottawa but now I see it as probably better in the long run as it'll speed up Alberta independence.

There's mixed minds on this upcoming election. We want the Liberals sent packing but leary of any minority CPC government taking the wind out of the sails in the movemnent towards decentralization. To be or not to be, that is the question. So far what's shaping up is a more accentuated divide in Canada. Hopefully then the Liberals will pull a boner and go after Alberta resources and create a backlash increasing momentum towards sovereignty.
 
the caracal kid
#4
Alberta independence....

well, i don't buy it and i don't think anybody that has really examined the realities of separation buys it.

I support more decentralization but find any province going it alone laughable.
 
Reverend Blair
#5
The highest, most generous estimates show support for Alberta separatism at around 30%, Caracal....much of it very soft support. Toss in BC and that drops substantially.

The province of Alberta lacks the education and knowledge base to make it as an independent state and all of their wealth is centred on oil and gas...take that away and their feeble attempts at diversification look laughable.

The tax advantage would disappear in a hurry if they had to fund all of the institutions that a country has to fund, and the corruption within the Alberta government would quickly squander the few resources they've left themselves with.

They also have no substantial defining characteristics. They complain about Canada not having a cohesive culture? Alberta doesn't even have that much going for it.

Most Albertans understand that though. Alberta separatism is not a valid political threat.
 
Calberty
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by the caracal kid


I support more decentralization but find any province going it alone laughable.

Then you will doing a lot of laughing when Quebec says 'bye bye'
 
the caracal kid
#7
quebec will only be saying bye-bye if canada does not get its act together and reform its federation and constitution.

but then again, canada has always been a nation of "settlers"/"compromisers" which is a part of the problem. Perhaps quebec separating, which brings about the breakup of the rest of the country is what is needed to give everybody a real kick so we can proceed to recreate a new canada, with a new constitution, a new federal gov (with different powers), and my personal favorite: NO MORE MONARCHY.
 
Calberty
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by the caracal kid

quebec will only be saying bye-bye if canada does not get its act together and reform its federation and constitution.

but then again, canada has always been a nation of "settlers"/"compromisers" which is a part of the problem. Perhaps quebec separating, which brings about the breakup of the rest of the country is what is needed to give everybody a real kick so we can proceed to recreate a new canada, with a new constitution, a new federal gov (with different powers), and my personal favorite: NO MORE MONARCHY.

Agreed. Nations evolve...come and go. The only impetus to change the current inertia is for Quebec to achieve independence and a decentralization of the rest of Canada. That way Manitoba and Ontario and whoever can have the social programs and vision they want and Albertans can become master of their own house.
 
Semperfi_dani
#9
The first mistake is reading the Edmonton Sun as a bench mark of Albertan's feelings. :P Seriously, that newspaper is right wing crap. They maybe poll two guys at the Zellers coffee shop who have paid 98cents for unlimited refill coffess and sit there all morning...and thats the litmus test for all Albertans?

I am fully aware that there is a movement by other 98 cent grumpy coffee drinkers...and maybe at most the uneducated high school drop out making 75 grand in the oilfield who thinks the wave will go on for ever....

But come on now...Alberta needs Ontario more than they don't...because whose going to refine all our liquid gold?

And god knows as you get into your 50 grande pickup truck heading to your 75 grande plus job, Alberta is being so hard done by....
 
Reverend Blair
#10
Quote:

The first mistake is reading the Edmonton Sun as a bench mark of Albertan's feelings. Razz Seriously, that newspaper is right wing crap. They maybe poll two guys at the Zellers coffee shop who have paid 98cents for unlimited refill coffess and sit there all morning...and thats the litmus test for all Albertans?

Exactly, Semperfi. The press in Alberta is a joke and they are pushing a specific agenda. They want to scare the rest of Canada into voting Conservative by menacing us with Alberta separatism. To do that, they have to whip up and exagerate separatist sentiment in the province, but the truth is that it's never been that strong and is constantly diluted by the influx of workers from other parts of Canada.
 
the caracal kid
#11
i think the pathetic press is not just an alberta issue. We have our little empires that through years of swapping, buyouts, etc have left us with very little breadth of spectrum in coverage.
 
Semperfi_dani
#12
Hahaha...caracal kid..i think you and I are on the same wave length when it comes to media coverage annoyance today.
I yearn for the days when the media was there to report with a fair amount of unbias.
 
Reverend Blair
#13
It's not just an Alberta issue, Caracal. It's a problem all over Canada. BC, Saskatchewan and Alberta are in about the worst shape though because there is even less choice there than elsewhere. Even BC has the Tyee now. Alberta doesn't even have that.

Saskatchewan still depends on the national media enough that some diversity filters through, though there's less and less all the time.
 
Semperfi_dani
#14
One of the ways i have being trying to expand my mind is by reading independant newspapers. You can get quite a range of diverse opionion, editorial and coverage.

But even than...you have to be careful. I find that with some papers, its just a verbatum rehashing of the same ideas you can get in the Globe and Mail or from CBC commenatators.

The other things is that increasingly, there have been a rash of what i call "faux" indie papers. For example..Dose magazine. Its good for lite reading, but in the back of my mind, i know its just a junior paper of a larger media firm.
 
Reverend Blair
#15
There's a fair bit available on the internet too, semperfi. You can even get RSS feeds for the election.
 
athabaska
#16
Caracal, a lot of all this will depend on what new arrangements are made after Quebec independence is won. That'll should be by about 2010 or so.
 
Reverend Blair
#17
So Stephen Harper is going to push Quebec out of Canada as a way of further Albertan separatism? No real surprises there.
 
bluealberta
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by Reverend Blair

Good. F*ck off and leave then. The rest of us tired of hearing all the whining from the minority of Albertans who are ill-educated and greedy enough to think that separation is a real option for them.

Of course, don't be waiting too long for all that natural gas to be coming down from the territories to run your tarsands. We'll be using that to heat our homes in the rest of Canada.

You can forget about any aid when the next drought or flood hits too, and your going to have to spend the billions that Ottawa currently subsidises the oil companies with yourselves. You'll also need a military, a police force, a foreign service. Hell, you'll be needing a lot of things. Like a passport if you want to travel to the rest of Canada.

Once you get sucked up by the United States, and you will, then you can deal with that little reality. Think you are under-represented nationally now? Wait until you find out that Washington doesn't give a flying f*ck about you. Oh, and the US has a National Energy Program. We all know how Albertans like schemes like that. If you thought Trudeau was nasty to you, wait'll Dick Cheney tells you how completely insignificant you are.

So go ahead and separate in a childish tiff because your tiny little population doesn't get to dictate to the rest of Canada.

Same old, same old. Riddle me this: What will Canada do without the $12 billion in transfer payments Alberta currently provides?
 
the caracal kid
#19
the fed will just declare that each part of the province has to vote for independence and that the oil and gas beneath the ground isn't yours if you separate!

(note how the land laws can be used against a government as well as for a government)
 
FiveParadox
Liberal
#20
Fractured Canada is Not Likely

Firstly, I don't think that Canada is anywhere close to becoming "fractured." Even if Québec were to pass a referendum to the effect of separation, the Supreme Court of Canada has been clear that a Provincial referendum cannot authorize a Province to leave Confederation; this would require a decision on a national scale and, when push comes to shove, I don't think that Canadians are going to be so willing to let go of Québec.

The same would be true of Alberta attempting to separate from Canada; a Province cannot unilaterally opt out of Confederation, and I cannot foresee a majority of Canadians authorizing the Province of Alberta to leave the nation.

Bias in the Media

I get a majority of my information from CPAC. It's my top choice as being an unbiased network, with unbiased programming. I would strongly recommend this station to anyone who wishes to see politics in Canada for what they are. (Note: If you prefer programming in French, switch to SAP while watching CPAC; with the exception of commercials, which are normally exclusively in either French or English, regular programming is offered in both languages, translated as-you-go.)

Edit Corrected an error in punctuation.
 
bluealberta
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by the caracal kid

the fed will just declare that each part of the province has to vote for independence and that the oil and gas beneath the ground isn't yours if you separate!

(note how the land laws can be used against a government as well as for a government)

\
Well, I admire your optimism if not your common sense.

The resources in a province belong to a province, every province. That is a constitutional issue, and to change it would be somewhat contentious. It's like mineral rights. Just because you sell land on which you hold mineral rights, does not mean you lose the mineral rights to that land. The resources of Alberta belong to Alberta and Albertans, just as the resources of Ontario belong to Ontario and Ontarians. Plain and simple, guaranteed by the constitution.
 
bluealberta
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by Reverend Blair

So Stephen Harper is going to push Quebec out of Canada as a way of further Albertan separatism? No real surprises there.

How anyone can make that connection is beyond comprehension. What utter trash.
 
Jersay
#23
Quote:

The resources in a province belong to a province, every province. That is a constitutional issue, and to change it would be somewhat contentious. It's like mineral rights. Just because you sell land on which you hold mineral rights, does not mean you lose the mineral rights to that land. The resources of Alberta belong to Alberta and Albertans, just as the resources of Ontario belong to Ontario and Ontarians. Plain and simple, guaranteed by the constitution.

Just like Saskatchewan and Manitoba, the resources of Alberta was given to the provincial governments by the federal government, and I am sure that if you look at the documentation of those agreements, even though they are probably vague, they will have something about seperatism and the resources revert back to Canada.
 
the caracal kid
#24
your forgetting though that if you separate the constitution no longer applies to you! remember all the issues surrounding Quebec separation? Go look at a map of the area that became Alberta. Could you imagine if the gov decided to revert the borders back to the old territorial days? It would be a messy issue to say the least. The current Alberta does not have a historical claim to its boundaries so separation talk could get very interesting.

i was being light-hearted about the "the oil isn't yours", but to be serious, if you consider how much the feds have put into alberta you can pretty much count on getting a rather large bill as a part of separation.
 

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