Quebec as a Nation


View Poll Results: Do you recognized Québec as being a nation ?
Yes 14 31.82%
No 30 68.18%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll

John Muff
#1
Hi there,

This is meant to be a clear question to the international community in it's true meaning...

Do you recognize Québec as being a nation ?

Yes or No ?
Last edited by John Muff; Nov 20th, 2006 at 01:57 AM..Reason: My verb, recognized is at the past, when it should be at the present, right ?
 
Andem
Free Thinker
#2
Yes.
 
sanctus
#3
Quote: Originally Posted by John Muff View Post

Hi there,

This is meant to be a clear question to the international community in it's true meaning...

Do you recognize Québec as being a nation ?

Yes or No ?

No. As Trudeau once stated, and I'm paraphrasing, Why would Quebecers limit themselves when all of Canada is theirs too.
 
s_lone
#4
Of course...

We call the natives First NATIONS. Why not the Québecois? The Québecois now have considerable polictical power and their cultural independance is higher than the English Canadian culture.
 
Logic 7
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by s_lone View Post

Of course...

We call the natives First NATIONS. Why not the Québecois? The Québecois now have considerable polictical power and their cultural independance is higher than the English Canadian culture.



Exactly, in fact canada should unite with united states, at least they wouldnt have to deal with the stupid queen/monarchy thing.
 
tamarin
Conservative
#6
And English Canada is a nation too. The conquerors of the French nation. And its tolerant stewards.
 
ottawabill
#7
Quebec was never a nation. It will be if it ever separates but until that time it is not now nor has ever been a nation. I began as a French outpost then became an English territory..never has been any more then either.....

What then we call Canada the United Nations of America? comprised of the former Nation of Newfoundland, the Nation of Quebec, the first nations, the Meti Nation, and hell lets have the Toronto..no the GTA nation.. they can all have a president, a flag and high taxes for all..ooohh where do we sign up??
 
Hamlet
#8
One problem I see with this question is that nation was never really defined--there are lots of defintions and criteria for a "nation". However, if you want to say that a nation is defined as a group of people having similar cultural, linguistic, or historical ties, well, my answer to the question would be "no." The reason being that my definition of nation involves people, not geographic borders. Honestly, if Quebec is a nation, then so is Nunavut or Newfoundland. Now, what if the original poster's question was something like, "Do you think Quebec is the homeland of French Canadians (or Quebecer or Quebequos--whatever your preference)?" That is something I would probably say "yes" to.
 
s_lone
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by Hamlet View Post

One problem I see with this question is that nation was never really defined--there are lots of defintions and criteria for a "nation". However, if you want to say that a nation is defined as a group of people having similar cultural, linguistic, or historical ties, well, my answer to the question would be "no." The reason being that my definition of nation involves people, not geographic borders. Honestly, if Quebec is a nation, then so is Nunavut or Newfoundland. Now, what if the original poster's question was something like, "Do you think Quebec is the homeland of French Canadians (or Quebecer or Quebequos--whatever your preference)?" That is something I would probably say "yes" to.

Well there you go, I for one think Quebecers form a nation and I have no problem with Newfoundland calling themselves a nation if that is what they feel... But is that what they feel?
 
ottawabill
#10
Unlike Quebec..newfoundland Was A Nation....until 1949 Their Own Stamps, Currency, Etc...
 
Sassylassie
#11
Quebec is not a nation, it is a province in Canada and just because a Liberal Leader wannabe said it doesn't make it so.

Good catch OttawaBill,
 
Dexter Sinister
No Party Affiliation
#12
Once again, it's a case where it's perhaps unfortunate that words only rarely have precise, unambiguous meanings. Depends what you think "nation" means, or ought to mean. In the context of Quebec the word is loaded with emotional, political, and cultural freight it doesn't have in the context of discussing the so-called First Nations. If you define nation, as one of my dictionaries does, as " a community of people of mainly common descent, history, language, etc., forming a state or inhabiting a territory," then I suppose you'd have to agree that Quebec is a nation. On that basis, so are the Scots, the Irish, the Welsh, the Kurds in Turkey and Iraq, and thousands of other groups around the world. I could probably make a case that Saskatchewan is as well, and we should annex Alberta because such a large fraction of its population came originally from Saskatchewan. History shows that people have used weaker claims than that to justify annexing territory. It wasn't long ago that Iraq tried it on Kuwait.

Then consider the difference between "forming a state" and "inhabiting a territory," The latter is a much weaker condition and I'm inclined to dismiss it because it opens a door to so much potential foolishness. We could have Ukrainian nations in various parts of Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and Alberta, for instance. If you think carefully about what "forming a state" really means, the definition amounts to a tautology: a nation is a group of people who form a nation. Not very useful.

I think the key point has to be sovereignty: no community is a nation unless it has absolute independence and authority over all matters relating to its governance and its relationships with other such communities. So no, Quebec is not a nation. Some people think it should be and are working actively to make it so, but until they succeed (and I'll be very unhappily surprised if they do) the label doesn't apply.
 
Toro
#13
Yes.
 
John Muff
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter Sinister View Post

Once again, it's a case where it's perhaps unfortunate that words only rarely have precise, unambiguous meanings. Depends what you think "nation" means, or ought to mean.

[...]

Then consider the difference between "forming a state" and "inhabiting a territory," The latter is a much weaker condition and I'm inclined to dismiss it because it opens a door to so much potential foolishness.

[...]

I think the key point has to be sovereignty: no community is a nation unless it has absolute independence and authority over all matters relating to its governance and its relationships with other such communities. So no, Quebec is not a nation. Some people think it should be and are working actively to make it so, but until they succeed (and I'll be very unhappily surprised if they do) the label doesn't apply.

Hi there,
Thank you for your taught "Sinister", it's by understanding the way you do that the "game" will be played fairly when the time come. They, I think, shows how people like to say that Québec belong to Canada when the question only relate to our ways of living. We wouldn't get caught twice by the Liberal campaigns to buy votes in Québec; sorry to the Canadians I will offed, but even Mr. Pariseault comments following the lost at the PROVINCIAL referendum where true even if they were somewhat racist. I didn't vote on the last referendum on the basis that I wasn't as aware of the injustice that occured, the clear buying of votes within the minorities. (And many other things) Therefore I didn't taught that I was able to have a clear and honest judgment... When the time will come, I hope everything will be kept by the rules.

When the sovereignty question arise again, it wont be directed on the Canadian platform as many still think. This is a Québecers decision and international rights are, as following for the people who don't understand majority, a 50% +1, the independence, simple as that. Or we could maybe think about giving # in math new meanings. Exemple, we could count the next unit+1 at 0.60, instead of the boring 0.50... Hehe !

So to reemphasized on the question. Do you see us (Québec) different from the rest of Canada in a simple way as being so different that it must be specifically recognized ? I only say RECOGNIZED there for everyone...

I didn't ask if you support the independence of Québec, since this is an internal matter, therefore, out of reach of every single Canadians but the Québecers.

Thanks, Have a great one !

John Muff
 
John Muff
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by Hamlet View Post


[...]

However, if you want to say that a nation is defined as a group of people having similar cultural, linguistic, or historical ties, well, my answer to the question would be "no."

[...]

Now, what if the original poster's question was something like, "Do you think Quebec is the homeland of French Canadians (or Quebecer or Quebequos--whatever your preference)?" That is something I would probably say "yes" to.

So it's our nation if it's your too, and only then right ? Canadians must feel included in all sentence said that relate to Québec.

No-wonder why some may want to protect "whatever" they care for in Québec.

John Muff
 
Dexter Sinister
No Party Affiliation
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by John Muff View Post

Do you see us (Québec) different from the rest of Canada in a simple way as being so different that it must be specifically recognized ?

Yes of course, and it is. Canadian law has always recognized the special status of Quebec, at least as far back as 1839 when the then Governor-General, Lord Durham, wrote a lengthy report on the affairs of what was then called British North America. It's one of the foundations of the degree of local autonomy given to provinces in the British North America Act that created Canada in 1867.
 
sanctus
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by John Muff View Post

...

I didn't ask if you support the independence of Québec, since this is an internal matter, therefore, out of reach of every single Canadians but the Québecers.

Thanks, Have a great one !

John Muff

Oh poppycock, I'm so tired of that line of reasoning. The whole problem with your province is its attitude of us vs. them. It is indeed an internal matter-for all of us in this country. Your decision is something that will affect every province. How dare the seperartists in Quebec assume it is, in a nutshell, none of our business in Ontario, Manitoba, etc. Quebec belongs to us as much as Ontario belongs to you.
 
Hamlet
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by John Muff View Post

So it's our nation if it's your too, and only then right ? Canadians must feel included in all sentence said that relate to Québec.

No-wonder why some may want to protect "whatever" they care for in Québec.

John Muff

I think perhaps you misunderstand my definition of "nation". To me a nation is a group of people, not the borders that surround said people. Certainly, often the borders and people are one and the same (for example, the Danish people live in the Danish state).

However, with respect to the Quebecois, there are many Quebequois that have spilled over into Ontario or New Brunswick. In my definition of nation, those populations would still be Quebecois, despite living in another province, because they would identify with particular language, culture, history, etc. If I were to draw on a map a depiction of the Quebecois, I would color in the southern third of Quebec, and include parts of Ontario and New Brunswick that have significant populations of Quebecois.

Now, the upper 2/3 of Quebec doesn't have very many people, but from what I understand, there is a Cree and Innu population. Do they identify with Quebecois culture (language, history, etc.)?

John Muff, you asked a question to another poster, "Do you see us (Québec) different from the rest of Canada in a simple way as being so different that it must be specifically recognized ?"

This is a great question! But I have to answer it, "no". I think there are already a number of laws on the books and directives from the government that help protect French language rights. However, I'll be the first to admit that I don't know any Quebecers, so perhaps there are some significant differences. If so, I'd like someone to explain to me the differences between a Quebecer and someone from Alberta.
 
gearheaded1
#19
At the risk of sounding like a westener, my opinion is a no for nation for Quebec. In no way is this to be a slight on anyone from Quebec, but Alberta is not a nation either. The nation that we all belong to is Canada.

Certainly we all have our different cultures, styles and language which should be celebrated and promoted. I'd agree that as a country, and particularly out West, we haven't embraced or even come to understand the uniqueness that is Quebec.

I think we can make some inroads in this by promoting and rewarding bilingualism, domestic travel and interprovincial cooperation. (There's something you don't hear every day from an Albertan. Let's share... except the oil part. Just kidding)

Dexter - while others file up their posts with blather - you make your point and move on. Good references and thoughts.

Cheers!
 
the caracal kid
#20
Yes, Quebec is a nation. I say that from the context of "canada" considering itself the country founded by two nations.
 
Hotshot
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by Logic 7 View Post

Exactly, in fact canada should unite with united states, at least they wouldnt have to deal with the stupid queen/monarchy thing.

Instead you want us to deal with that stupid bush thing??? you are an idiot.
 
Hotshot
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by the caracal kid View Post

Yes, Quebec is a nation. I say that from the context of "canada" considering itself the country founded by two nations.

That mentality is the problem, the 10 provinces are part of one country. Quebec is not special and doesn't deserve any special recognition. If they want to become a 'nation' then let them go. We don't need them. Canada can survive without them, they can't survive without Canada.
 
the caracal kid
#23
Quebec wants to protect its distinctiveness, and has a basis in being one of the "founding nations".

It is not Quebec's problem that other provinces were established later.

Your attitude of "Quebec needs canada, canada doesn't need quebec" is a problem. They want to be distinct, let them be.
 
Dexter Sinister
No Party Affiliation
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by the caracal kid View Post

Quebec wants to protect its distinctiveness, and has a basis in being one of the "founding nations".

And Ontario was the other, possibly including Nova Scotia and New Brunswick? C'mon, you should know better than that. It was France, not Quebec, that was one of the founding nations.
 
John Muff
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by Hotshot View Post




Quebec is not special and doesn't deserve any special recognition.

[...]

Canada can survive without them, they can't survive without Canada.

So Hotshot, by saying so, your telling palestinans in the same time that they don't deserve a "nation", because they need International funding to "survive".

I don't think that Québec would need subsidized revenue, since, on the morning of the independence, you won't ask yourself if your at war with your neighbor, but instead you'll seek to understand us better as we really are. Not "melted" in Canadian British rules and laws, monarchy link is another question there. Do you think we are bound to it as the rest of you are ???

Think twice. Québec is a STRONG nation (recognizing Québec is not a "Country", but "nation"), therefore we would do well, and probably better mutually because we are peaceful and share some values. Don't be afraid of who you are so we can know you better is what I would suggest you Hotshot...

Til' then... Have a good one... Love Ya

John Muff
 
gopher
No Party Affiliation
#26
If the folks in Quebec want to secede from Canada, it is their right to do so. A few years ago the Cree considered seceding as well but tabled the discussion. Again, if they want their freedom, it is their right.

All who believe in democracy should also believe in the inalienable right of secession.
 
Andem
Free Thinker
#27
It seems that people here don't understand exactly what a nation is. Based on most replies, members seem to think the word nation is synonymous with state. This is simply not the case.

I would move to say that the results of this poll are inaccurate as it's obvious people don't understand the question clearly.
 
the caracal kid
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter Sinister View Post

And Ontario was the other, possibly including Nova Scotia and New Brunswick? C'mon, you should know better than that. It was France, not Quebec, that was one of the founding nations.

Well, if the anglos feel the need to explicidly call themselves a nation, so be it. Of course, we know that won't happen. Just because one group isn't vocal about itself doesn't mean other groups should be denied their distinctiveness by said group. If that is how you feel, then perhaps you would be of the camp that thinks "let quebec try to separate, and when the anglos defeat them again, this time don't give them their culture".
 
Andem
Free Thinker
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by John Muff View Post

So Hotshot, by saying so, your telling palestinans in the same time that they don't deserve a "nation", because they need International funding to "survive".

I don't think that Québec would need subsidized revenue, since, on the morning of the independence, you won't ask yourself if your at war with your neighbor, but instead you'll seek to understand us better as we really are. Not "melted" in Canadian British rules and laws, monarchy link is another question there. Do you think we are bound to it as the rest of you are ???

Think twice. Québec is a STRONG nation (recognizing Québec is not a "Country", but "nation"), therefore we would do well, and probably better mutually because we are peaceful and share some values. Don't be afraid of who you are so we can know you better is what I would suggest you Hotshot...

Til' then... Have a good one... Love Ya

John Muff

Quebec is recognised by Canada as a distinct society and they were never forced to use the British law system.. unlike every other province in Canada. I also disagree that Quebec would do just fine without subsidies. I love Quebec and miss being there (minus Montreal winters), but even with subsidies, the cities in Quebec are still ailing. There just exists little business prosperity in the province... especially compared to the past when Mtl was the heart of the Canadian economy. Take Canadian crown corporations and government subsidised companies out of the equasion and you have the recipe for disaster... Even Bombardier moved their transportation headquarters to Berlin, Germany recently.
 
Kreskin
#30
Capital does not like political instability. The BLOC referendum stuff is an economic thorn to Quebec.
 

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