Quebec is a nation? What does that mean?


DasFX
#1
Mr. Duceppe stated that Quebec is a nation and such that it should be sovereign. What exactly does he mean? Who is part of this Quebec nation? I understand that Quebec is distinct in its language, culture and heritage, but how does this lead to separation?

Is there anyone that can explain this rhetoric?
 
Jersay
#2
Being French Canadian, I agree that Quebec is a nation, just like the other nations in Canada, First Nations, Metis Nation, Acadian Nation.

But from what I guess Duceppe was saying, we are a nation and we want to discuss things on a nation to nation basis, like the First Nations treaties, not to a provincial-state level.

A Nation to Nation, where everyone would be totally respected.
 
Jay
#3
It only makes sense that if Quebec is a nation with its own piece of land, its own language and culture etc...It should be in control of its own destiny as a collective. For Martin to declare Quebec is a nation carries a lot of weight, and promotes this idea. That is why Martin is so hesitant to say it out load for all to hear.

It isn't just some sort of mumbo jumbo, politically correct pandering, like calling the Acadians a nation....this carries far more weight.
 
Jersay
#4
I guess that is why Martin said Nation in French first.
 
DasFX
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by Jay

It only makes sense that if Quebec is a nation with its own piece of land, its own language and culture etc...It should be in control of its own destiny as a collective. For Martin to declare Quebec is a nation carries a lot of weight, and promotes this idea. That is why Martin is so hesitant to say it out load for all to hear.

It isn't just some sort of mumbo jumbo, politically correct pandering, like calling the Acadians a nation....this carries far more weight.

But what defines a nation? How is this Quebec "nation" different from Acadians, The Cree, Scots, Catalans, etc.?

As for Quebecers being in control of their own destiny, how really are they not in control now?
 
Jersay
#6
Because on the International stage they are a province, not a state. They are apart of Canada!
 
Said1
Free Thinker
#7
I agree too, that Quebec is clearly a nation, although they are not recognized as such, hence Martin's hesitence in using the term in english when refering to Quebec.
 
DasFX
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by Jersay

Being French Canadian, I agree that Quebec is a nation, just like the other nations in Canada, First Nations, Metis Nation, Acadian Nation.

But from what I guess Duceppe was saying, we are a nation and we want to discuss things on a nation to nation basis, like the First Nations treaties, not to a provincial-state level.

A Nation to Nation, where everyone would be totally respected.

Who is a part of this Quebec nation? Is it only the French of Quebec? What defines the nation of Quebec? What makes Quebec a nation, whereas Newfoundland is not or Ontario?
 
DasFX
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by Said1

I agree too, that Quebec is clearly a nation,

I am not disagreeing with you, but how is it clearly a nation?
 
Said1
Free Thinker
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by Jersay

Because on the International stage they are a province, not a state. They are apart of Canada!

A nation is a group of people, not necessarily pocessing state boundries. If they did infact win a yes vote, they'd be a nation state. For now, their just a nation-province.
 
Jersay
#11
That's the problem. Who is apart of this nation. That is why, the seperatists did not win last time because they basically excluded allophones.

This time they are trying to be inclusive but they are the same as last time.
 
Said1
Free Thinker
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by DasFX

Quote: Originally Posted by Said1

I agree too, that Quebec is clearly a nation,

I am not disagreeing with you, but how is it clearly a nation?

They are a group of people, united through common language, history and interests. More or less.
 
DasFX
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by Said1

Quote: Originally Posted by DasFX

Quote: Originally Posted by Said1

I agree too, that Quebec is clearly a nation,

I am not disagreeing with you, but how is it clearly a nation?

They are a group of people, united through common language, history and interests. More or less.

Okay, in this sense I agree, but there are a whole lot of people residing in Quebec who, by your definition, are not part of this Quebec nation. Anglophones, immigrants and so on. Why does the separatisit continue to mislead people and tell them that they are indeed part of the Quebec nation?
 
Jersay
#14
However to become a nation they need to be recognized by a number of nations? Isn't that how it works?

Look at Taiwan. With Quebec they would probably at the most find support in France and that is it.

And with a nation, there are other nations within Canada, the idea of a nation within a nation. I don't know if something could work out to make Quebec work as a nation within a nation.
 
DasFX
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by Jersay

That's the problem. Who is apart of this nation. That is why, the seperatists did not win last time because they basically excluded allophones.

This time they are trying to be inclusive but they are the same as last time.

If Anglos and Allos can become part of the Quebec nation, why is it that Quebecers cannot be part of the Canadian nation?

If I moved to Quebec, lived there, worked there, paid taxes there, am I part of the Quebec nation? Am I Quebecois? I would say no.
 
Jersay
#16
Quote:

If Anglos and Allos can become part of the Quebec nation, why is it that Quebecers cannot be part of the Canadian nation?

If I moved to Quebec, lived there, worked there, paid taxes there, am I part of the Quebec nation? Am I Quebecois? I would say no.

And with the seperatists you are not. They just try to display that to get votes.

Also, with any other nation you can live with them pay taxes, Nisga'a but you are not part of the First Nations, or Acadian Nation or Metis Nation either.
 
DasFX
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by Jersay

However to become a nation they need to be recognized by a number of nations? Isn't that how it works?

Look at Taiwan. With Quebec they would probably at the most find support in France and that is it.

And with a nation, there are other nations within Canada, the idea of a nation within a nation. I don't know if something could work out to make Quebec work as a nation within a nation.

See, you are mixing the english legal definition of nation and the french socialogical meaning of nation.

Whether or not recognized by other countries, would not the Quebecois people still constitute a nation?
 
Said1
Free Thinker
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by Jersay

However to become a nation they need to be recognized by a number of nations? Isn't that how it works?

Look at Taiwan. With Quebec they would probably at the most find support in France and that is it.

And with a nation, there are other nations within Canada, the idea of a nation within a nation. I don't know if something could work out to make Quebec work as a nation within a nation.

Some international community needs to affirm their status, or at least the Canadian government does, which they don't - only distinct society status - was that Meech lake or Charolotte Town?

Canada on it's own isn't a nation, and I think the independence issue is much bigger than what they'd prefer to be called, but that's just me.
 
Jersay
#19
Not exactly? I don't think under International law. Maybe to the Quebec people but I don't think in International law.
 
Jay
#20
Nation seems to be a pretty loose term used to describe some sort of collective conscience. It may not be fair for me to say the Acadians aren't a nation; it is just my personal view. I sure do think that the Scotts are though.

Quebecers aren't in control of their own destiny if they are living under a power that they aren't in control of. They can't enter into international agreements of their own choice without the power and influence of the ROC.

I think we can work this out though. I think Quebec could be more empowered if we were following along the lines of the constitution instead of the Liberals and old PC version of federalism. I don’t think Martin or Layton understand this fact in the least.
 
DasFX
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by Jersay

Quote:

If Anglos and Allos can become part of the Quebec nation, why is it that Quebecers cannot be part of the Canadian nation?

If I moved to Quebec, lived there, worked there, paid taxes there, am I part of the Quebec nation? Am I Quebecois? I would say no.

And with the seperatists you are not. They just try to display that to get votes.

So what does this say about the separatist? What does this say about what kind of country Quebec will be?

There are far more "nation" in the world than countries. Why cannot a group of nations live in one country?

Also, with any other nation you can live with them pay taxes, Nisga'a but you are not part of the First Nations, or Acadian Nation or Metis Nation either.

 
Jersay
#22
So what does this say about the separatist? What does this say about what kind of country Quebec will be?

It will be a crap country.

There are far more "nation" in the world than countries. Why cannot a group of nations live in one country?

That is the ideology of a nation within a nation state.
 
Said1
Free Thinker
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by DasFX

[

Okay, in this sense I agree, but there are a whole lot of people residing in Quebec who, by your definition, are not part of this Quebec nation. Anglophones, immigrants and so on. Why does the separatisit continue to mislead people and tell them that they are indeed part of the Quebec nation?

I totally agree. That is, in light of that fact, that's probably why the Canadian government won't acknowledge their "nationess", and will only offer them their "distinct society" classification. I do think there is enough support in Quebec for this though, there are lots of other groups living within nation states, only the majority identify with whatever it is that makes them a nation.
 
Jersay
#24
Has anyone thought, maybe, Canada should do something like Russia.

Russia with its distinct group sign different consititutions with each republic that makes up its country and gives wide-ranging powers to that republic within the state.
 
poligeek
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by DasFX

Quote: Originally Posted by Said1

Quote: Originally Posted by DasFX

Quote: Originally Posted by Said1

I agree too, that Quebec is clearly a nation,

I am not disagreeing with you, but how is it clearly a nation?

They are a group of people, united through common language, history and interests. More or less.

Okay, in this sense I agree, but there are a whole lot of people residing in Quebec who, by your definition, are not part of this Quebec nation. Anglophones, immigrants and so on. Why does the separatisit continue to mislead people and tell them that they are indeed part of the Quebec nation?

A nation is a living political entity that is not a static thing. Generally a poltiical will by a collective majority of people to be recognized as a nation, a common culture, common history, language are particular aspects that lend validity to a people's claim to "nationhood".

It took the global community a long time to recognize that "nations" could be separated from "nation-states" meaning that the older definitions of "nations" include geographical boundaries. However, it is now commonly recognized that there are many "nations" that are displaced or landless, these include most first-nations, and in Canada the metis nation and the acadian nation.

On a political scale the desire to be a nation is a desire to be recognized in the world political forums as an equal and unique voice. At the current time Quebec cannot speak to other nations as a nation and be recognized as a nation by other nations.

This issue of immigrants, anglophones etc... is really a moot point when it comes to transversing Quebec the people-nation to Quebec the nation-state. A nation-state would have geographical boundaries, and self government that would include the characteristics of all countries such as immigrants and people who speak languages other than the official languge, just as Canada has immigrants and chinese-speaking Canadians.

The issue at hand here is that Quebec soverigntists feels that Quebec is significanlty different, and has a significantly distinct voice that Quebecquers should be able to represent themselves on the world stage instead of being represented as a sub-set of Canada.
 
Said1
Free Thinker
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by Jersay

Not exactly? I don't think under International law. Maybe to the Quebec people but I don't think in International law.

I really can't remember, to be honest. Worthy google topic though. Anyone?
 
DasFX
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by Jay

Quebecers aren't in control of their own destiny if they are living under a power that they aren't in control of. They can't enter into international agreements of their own choice without the power and influence of the ROC.

Quebec lives under the same rules as the other provinces. Why is this so unacceptable to Quebec, why does Quebec need these extra powers on the international stage? What will it accomplish on its own that is hasn't now? Quebec wields vast power in Canada and has played a huge role in the evolution of country. How can Quebecers be so repulsed at a country they created?
 
Jersay
#28
Quote:

Quebec lives under the same rules as the other provinces. Why is this so unacceptable to Quebec, why does Quebec need these extra powers on the international stage? What will it accomplish on its own that is hasn't now? Quebec wields vast power in Canada and has played a huge role in the evolution of country. How can Quebecers be so repulsed at a country they created?

I don't like seperatism but like Duceppe said in the debate,

"Quebec is different, no better and no worst but different to Canada".

Which is correct.
 
DasFX
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by poligeek

On a political scale the desire to be a nation is a desire to be recognized in the world political forums as an equal and unique voice. At the current time Quebec cannot speak to other nations as a nation and be recognized as a nation by other nations.

I just don't understand how Quebec expects to be heard on a world stage of 6 billion people when it "feels" it is not being heard on a stage of 32 million people.

I have no problem with recognizing the will of the people, but I just don't like how certain aspects are sugar coated or contradicted just to win a referendum.
 
Jay
#30
Maybe you’re not aware of the great animosity between English Canada and French Canada. Quebec doesn't want to be governed out of Ottawa by a bunch of people who can't stand them. They certainly don't want to be governed by a bunch of people who apparently can't read the constitution. Quebec has always maintained that issues like healthcare and education are provincial matters, and that sending money to Ottawa so it can be returned to them is a waste of time effort and money. The day care plan is the best example of this. Quebec already has a provincial system....so why would they send their money to Ottawa to have it returned to them to do what they are already doing? Ontario isn't as socialist as Quebec, and (more than likely) wouldn't opt for a provincial wide program, but would use a different system. Same with health care. IMO.

Are they repulsed with the country they created? Well, I don't think they consider it their country, considering the Queen of England runs it.
 

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