A Rational Conversation about Climate Change


Dixie Cup
+4
#1
https://youtu.be/KvnUXo4b0fA
 
petros
+5
#2
You'd think it's rational but to the ecofascists it's Evil Ben.
 
spilledthebeer
+1
#3
Quote: Originally Posted by petros View Post

You'd think it's rational but to the ecofascists it's Evil Ben.




YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


IT WOULD BE NICE TO KNOW.............................


WHEN THE RATIONAL PART OF THE CLIMATE CHANGE DISCUSSION MIGHT START!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Late in their mandate- Wynne-bag LIE-berals seriously considered BANNING ALL natural gas fueled appliances in Ontari-owe- meaning gas furnaces, gas stoves and gas bar-becues and etc............................................... ....


and then FORCING people to by all new ELECTRIC POWERED appliances!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The idea of forcing people to throw away brand new appliances was bad enough!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


But the forced change over to electricity was EVEN WORSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The KEY PROBLEM is EFFICIENCY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Your natural gas furnace uses and recovers over 90 percent of the energy fed into it as it creates heat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


As your furnace burns- the dangerous fumes go up the chimney....................................


but the heat the furnace generates is TRAPPED in your house!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


THIS IS NOT CASE with natural gas fueled electric generators!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!


The natural gas fueled electric generators are HUGE STEAM ENGINES........................................


and they operate at about 70 percent efficiency........................................ .............


a natural gas powered steam engine LEAKS A LOT MORE HEAT from pipes and vents and steam lines etc.................................... than the furnace in your basement!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


THE STEAM from the natural gas generator contains heat ENERGY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And yet quantities of steam are VENTED and heat is lost from a steam engine as if it was useless exhaust!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


This is why your home furnace runs at NINETY PERCENT efficiency........................................ .....


while natural ga fueled steam generators run at SEVENTY PERCENT efficiency!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!



Making Ontari-owe home owners switch from natural gas appliances over to electrically powered units would BE VERY GOOD for LIE-beral electricity sales!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!


Which is why LIE-berals LIKED THE IDEA.............................................. ...


think of all that Hydro One GRAVY - for HOGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!


And then think of all the sales tax on new electrical appliances - FOR HOGS............................................


not to mention all the business generated as people got their homes rewired for that "better living through electricity" SCAM that LIE-berals wanted!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And then understand that switching to all electric appliances would ACTUALLY FORCE MAJOR INCREASES in the use of natural gas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



To generate the extra electricity we needed using those 70 percent steam engines versus 90 percent efficiency home gas furnaces!!!!!!



And of course LIE-berals are DEADLY SERIOUS about making us STOP using ANY fossil fuel ........................................


FOR ANY REASON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!


LIE-berals talk themselves in MORE CIRCLES when they speak of creating an electricity grid powered by renewable energy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


LIE-berals IGNORE the reality of our Circadian Rhythms and PRETEND that we are not geared to DAYLIGHT operations!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


LIE-berals KNOW VERY WELL that whenever possible we want to operate in the daylight........................................


LIE-berals PRETEND we can operate in daylight and use electric TOY cars that recharge at night using renewable energy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



But it is during daylight that renewable energy is most efficient......................................... ....


At night- the sun is of course - GONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



And at night the wind DIES DOWN............................................


Renewable energy production in Ontari-owe falls to NEARLY ZERO at night!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


LIE-berals know their idea of an electric car future fueled by renewable energy IS BULLSH+T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And LIE-berals know that the alleged green advantage of electric TOY cars is NOT NEARLY as green as they want to PRETEND!!!!!!!


Electric TOY car sales are SLOW mainly because of range and refueling issues!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And LIE-berals know that electric TOY green efficiency is affected by HOW electricity is generated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!


LIE-berals DO NOT want to discuss the reality that if we did adopt electric TOY cars in a big way.......................................


we would need a corresponding MAJOR INCREASE in either nuclear power generation OR more natural gas steam generators!!!!!!!!!


LIE-berals are talking themselves in CIRCLES YET AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



But LIE-berals DO NOT want to discuss the massive conflict between electric car customer desires and LIE-beral green propaganda meisters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Electric TOY car buyers DEMAND LONGER TOY RANGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


But the amount of energy consumed in producing batteries for the electric TOYS IS HUGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Producing the batteries is the MAJOR energy consuming component of the electric TOY car!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



The longer the TOY range.....................the less green the machine is................................................


because of all the energy needed to produce the bigger battery!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



And considering a Lithium toy car battery is expected last TEN YEARS before its range become so limited it is CRIPPLED beyond reasonable use.....................



LIE-berals are STUCK in an electric TOY car contradiction!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The electric TOYS that customers want to buy are MUCH LESS GREEN than the electric TOYS that LIE-berals want us to BUY!!!!!!!!!!!


Voters are ALREADY DISGUSTED with LIE-beral manipulation of our electrical system!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Voters are ALREADY DISGUSTED with LIE-beral financial games related to electric TOY car subsidies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Voters are ALREADY DISGUSTED with LIE-beral screw ups and SCANDALS related to LIE-beral contracts for "fast electric chargers in public places!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Voters are ALREADY DISGUSTED with LIE-berals who blithely assume they can DESTROY our lives.............................


while using OUR GRAVY to maintain THEIR carbon rich life style!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Ron in Regina
+2
#4
Quote: Originally Posted by Dixie Cup View Post

https://youtu.be/KvnUXo4b0fA

Interesting. Here's more detail: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R31SXuFeX0A
Itís an interview with Randall Carlson. Very very knowledgeable on many many subjects. Even if somebody just watches the first hour itís an eye-opener. This is somebody who doesnít have a dog in the fight, but a very very smart person.
 
Ron in Regina
+2
#5
...and if this is going to be a Rational Conversation about Climate Change....lets get this 97% sidetrack out of the way early:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewJ6TI8ccAw

 
spaminator
+2
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by Ron in Regina View Post

...and if this is going to be a Rational Conversation about Climate Change....lets get this 97% sidetrack out of the way early:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ewJ6TI8ccAw

link clickable here
 
B00Mer
+4
#7
The climate has been changing for a billion years and will continue to change for another billion.

Can you get any more rational??
 
spilledthebeer
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by B00Mer View Post

The climate has been changing for a billion years and will continue to change for another billion.

Can you get any more rational??




Gosh Boomer - THERE IS PLENTY OF ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT of LIE-beral FAKE NEWS!
 
gerryh
+3
#9
https://edmontonjournal.com/opinion/...d-inefficient/
 
Ron in Regina
+3
#10
Good LINK gerryh. Nice to see some balance in the debate from the media.
 
Ron in Regina
+5
#11
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ewJ6TI8ccAw
Quote: Originally Posted by spaminator View Post

link clickable here

From the short video in the LINK above, my favourite quote goes something like this. "I'd rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned."

ScreenShot from the above video link. This has always disturbed me on the whole Climate Changing/Warming Debate.
 
Jinentonix
+7
#12  Top Rated Post
Climate change happens. Humans ARE a "recent" contributor to it. We affect every other aspect of our environment so its not a stretch that we'd have some impact on the climate. But being the primary driver has been the bone of contention for myself and no shortage of scientists. And even assuming we are, switching to sunshine and unicorn farts isn't really going to change anything. Mining is already the most environmentally destructive activity we engage in and we're at 87% of our sustainability rate already. To meet the targets of the Green Devolution would require a massive increase in mining activity. In fact, based on projections just for silver alone, I have grave doubts there are enough viable deposits left to meet that demand.
It takes 500,000 gallons of water to make 1 ton of lithium. That water is so toxic it is useless to us for thousands of years. To meet the Green Devolution targets, it's estimated lithium production would have to increase 2700% and it's already causing an environmental crisis as it is. Farmers in South America downstream of the lithium mines are seeing their farms turn into desert.


For some odd reason, I just don't see the Green Devolution doing one damn thing to reduce whatever affect we have on the climate. All I see it doing is shifting the burden from fossil fuels and adding to the already huge burden of mining.
 
Serryah
+4
#13
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk11vI-7czE


I know, I know. It's a Michael Moore film and he's a fat libtard and yada yada.


But this film actually was interesting as hell and showing the not so Green of 'Green' energy.
 
gerryh
+2
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by Jinentonix View Post

Climate change happens. Humans ARE a "recent" contributor to it. We affect every other aspect of our environment so its not a stretch that we'd have some impact on the climate. But being the primary driver has been the bone of contention for myself and no shortage of scientists. And even assuming we are, switching to sunshine and unicorn farts isn't really going to change anything. Mining is already the most environmentally destructive activity we engage in and we're at 87% of our sustainability rate already. To meet the targets of the Green Devolution would require a massive increase in mining activity. In fact, based on projections just for silver alone, I have grave doubts there are enough viable deposits left to meet that demand.
It takes 500,000 gallons of water to make 1 ton of lithium. That water is so toxic it is useless to us for thousands of years. To meet the Green Devolution targets, it's estimated lithium production would have to increase 2700% and it's already causing an environmental crisis as it is. Farmers in South America downstream of the lithium mines are seeing their farms turn into desert.
For some odd reason, I just don't see the Green Devolution doing one damn thing to reduce whatever affect we have on the climate. All I see it doing is shifting the burden from fossil fuels and adding to the already huge burden of mining.


Here's the thing, oil sands and fracking are in these eco nuts back yard. They dont give a shit about some lithium mine in some third world country that isnt there's. They care about their backyard only.
 
Tecumsehsbones
+1
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh View Post

Here's the thing, oil sands and fracking are in these eco nuts back yard. They dont give a shit about some lithium mine in some third world country that isnt there's. They care about their backyard only.

To be fair, it seems like anti-warmers (is that a thing? I'm trying to avoid using "deniers" because that's become a buzzword) don't give a shit about the lithium mines either, except as a stick to beat the anti-fracking people with.
 
gerryh
+1
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by Tecumsehsbones View Post

To be fair, it seems like anti-warmers (is that a thing? I'm trying to avoid using "deniers" because that's become a buzzword) don't give a shit about the lithium mines either, except as a stick to beat the anti-fracking people with.


Have they said that the lithium mines need to be shut down? Have they demanded more oversight and environmental restriction than are on the f EA backing and oil sands operations? If not, then you are comparing apples to oranges.
 
Tecumsehsbones
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh View Post

Have they said that the lithium mines need to be shut down? Have they demanded more oversight and environmental restriction than are on the f EA backing and oil sands operations? If not, then you are comparing apples to oranges.

You tell me. Have they?

I've got no problem with oil sands operations, nor with lithium mines. Both need to be operated, and both need to be operated in the most environmentally-friendly way feasible.

But this "oil sands protesters don't give a shit about lithium mines!" somewhat smacks of whataboutery. Kinda like "why doesn't the NAACP care about injustice toward Latinx people?"

The implication is that unless one spends equal time and effort on every problem in the world, one is being unreasonable or hypocritical about the problems they are addressing.
 
gerryh
+1
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by Tecumsehsbones View Post

You tell me. Have they?
I've got no problem with oil sands operations, nor with lithium mines. Both need to be operated, and both need to be operated in the most environmentally-friendly way feasible.
But this "oil sands protesters don't give a shit about lithium mines!" somewhat smacks of whataboutery. Kinda like "why doesn't the NAACP care about injustice toward Latinx people?"
The implication is that unless one spends equal time and effort on every problem in the world, one is being unreasonable or hypocritical about the problems they are addressing.


The lithium mines are needed to to make the batteries to power their precious electric cars and trucks. The lithium mines will need to be expanded considerably to meet the demand they envision. The lithium mines, because of where they are situated, have very little if any environmental oversight. The complete opposite of canadian oil sands projects.

Yet, they have done everything they can to shut down Canadian oil and oil sands production, but nada at the other end.
 
Tecumsehsbones
+2
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh View Post

The lithium mines are needed to to make the batteries to power their precious electric cars and trucks. The lithium mines will need to be expanded considerably to meet the demand they envision. The lithium mines, because of where they are situated, have very little if any environmental oversight. The complete opposite of canadian oil sands projects.
Yet, they have done everything they can to shut down Canadian oil and oil sands production, but nada at the other end.

Just as the NAACP has done many wonderful things for black people, but pretty much nothing for non-black people.

It's fair to point out that the alternatives to oil and IC engines also have environmental impacts. That's a perfectly valid argument in favor of continuing exploitation of the oil sands. It's not fair to imply (or flatly state) that it's wrong to care less about lithium mines.

You can't expect someone to fight every battle.
 
gerryh
+4
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by Tecumsehsbones View Post

Just as the NAACP has done many wonderful things for black people, but pretty much nothing for non-black people.
It's fair to point out that the alternatives to oil and IC engines also have environmental impacts. That's a perfectly valid argument in favor of continuing exploitation of the oil sands. It's not fair to imply (or flatly state) that it's wrong to care less about lithium mines.
You can't expect someone to fight every battle.


You're right. Fully understandable and should be fully acceptable to protest against a form of extraction that has less of an impact environmentally than another. How dare we question the motives of those individuals or groups.
 
Mowich
+3
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by Tecumsehsbones View Post

To be fair, it seems like anti-warmers (is that a thing? I'm trying to avoid using "deniers" because that's become a buzzword) don't give a shit about the lithium mines either, except as a stick to beat the anti-fracking people with.


To be fair, one doesn't have to be a denier or a anti-warmer to point out the fallacies apparent in the Green lobbies continuing support for projects in countries with no environmental standards and where in some cases, children are being employed to extract whatever mineral is needed for the Green push. Honesty on both sides of the issue is always welcome but not always available.
 
Tecumsehsbones
+2
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh View Post

You're right. Fully understandable and should be fully acceptable to protest against a form of extraction that has less of an impact environmentally than another. How dare we question the motives of those individuals or groups.

Their motives are clear and pure.

Their brains? Not so much. But if you expect "movements" to be rational, prepare for a life of disappointments.
 
gerryh
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by Tecumsehsbones View Post

Their motives are clear and pure.
Their brains? Not so much. But if you expect "movements" to be rational, prepare for a life of disappointments.

Where did I say that I expected them to be rational? Just because they are irrational does not mean I can't point out that irrationality.
 
Jinentonix
+3
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by Tecumsehsbones View Post

To be fair, it seems like anti-warmers (is that a thing? I'm trying to avoid using "deniers" because that's become a buzzword) don't give a shit about the lithium mines either, except as a stick to beat the anti-fracking people with.

While some of us have a much better grasp of reality.
It's not just lithium. Mining for silver, copper, gold, iron ore, coal, and all the rare earth metals that will be needed to achieve the impossible goal of carbon neutral by 2050 and beyond will need to be vastly increased. Unless we figure out how to mine asteroids by then, we ain't gonna make it.


It has nothing to do with being a "denier" and everything to do with cold, hard reality. The numbers simply don't work out and they never will, unless...


There's two choices. You can make the decision to permanently reduce our consumption of ALL resources and teach our kids conservation as well, or you can just kill yourself now to save the planet. Because I'm telling you right now, someone is going to come up with a solution that NOBODY is going to like, assuming we even find out about it before it's too late. Think "Children of Men" or "Logan's Run" kind of near future.
 
NZDoug
+2
#25
Cannibalism is the only solution.
Stay within your own island.
 
DaSleeper
#26
Do like codex keeps trying to do in the Macgyver series ....kill half the population of earth so that the other half may live better....


Simple , non?
 
taxslave
+2
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by Tecumsehsbones View Post

Just as the NAACP has done many wonderful things for black people, but pretty much nothing for non-black people.
It's fair to point out that the alternatives to oil and IC engines also have environmental impacts. That's a perfectly valid argument in favor of continuing exploitation of the oil sands. It's not fair to imply (or flatly state) that it's wrong to care less about lithium mines.
You can't expect someone to fight every battle.

I'll go along with that but one cannot protest oil and shill for solar at the same time. There are places where solar power has been a great lift for the population but it will not replace, or even put a dent in the need for oil and gas in my lifetime. There are also a lot of fossil fuel protesters tha end up pushing for nuclear instead. IMHO nuclear is the worst power source imaginable.
 
Tecumsehsbones
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by Jinentonix View Post

While some of us have a much better grasp of reality.
It's not just lithium. Mining for silver, copper, gold, iron ore, coal, and all the rare earth metals that will be needed to achieve the impossible goal of carbon neutral by 2050 and beyond will need to be vastly increased. Unless we figure out how to mine asteroids by then, we ain't gonna make it.
It has nothing to do with being a "denier" and everything to do with cold, hard reality. The numbers simply don't work out and they never will, unless...
There's two choices. You can make the decision to permanently reduce our consumption of ALL resources and teach our kids conservation as well, or you can just kill yourself now to save the planet. Because I'm telling you right now, someone is going to come up with a solution that NOBODY is going to like, assuming we even find out about it before it's too late. Think "Children of Men" or "Logan's Run" kind of near future.

There's two choices. You can make the decision to never have more'n what we have now, or we can breed for bigger, stronger horses.

-- Mr. Jin N. Tonics, 1885.
 
Tecumsehsbones
+1
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslave View Post

I'll go along with that but one cannot protest oil and shill for solar at the same time. There are places where solar power has been a great lift for the population but it will not replace, or even put a dent in the need for oil and gas in my lifetime. There are also a lot of fossil fuel protesters tha end up pushing for nuclear instead. IMHO nuclear is the worst power source imaginable.

Yes, one can.

They'll never have a worldwide, interconnected computer system that lets you make your categorical proclamations to people in other countries in your lifetime. That's pure science fiction.
 
Tecumsehsbones
+2
#30
There are 2 1/2 people on this board who recognize the obvious fact that energy always will be, as it always has been, provided by a mix of sources and techniques. Mowich, Cap'n Morgan when he's sober, and me.

Keep saying it, tax, and you may push the number up to 3.

And there's nothing wrong with nuclear. No. . . check that. There's plenty wrong with nuclear, but there's nothing wrong with nuclear as an energy source. Research, engineering, and planning are the solution to nuclear's problems (and all our other problems).