Alberta moves to export water!


captain morgan
No Party Affiliation
#31
Quote: Originally Posted by cyberclark View Post

I know a great deal about the subject. The conservatives have stripped the heritage trust fund of 70 billion dollars to augment still lower royalties!

.. Just to subsidize royalties, eh? Really?

Can you provide any details or proof, or is this partisan rhetoric that has no basis in reality?

Quote: Originally Posted by cyberclark View Post

When you consider the advanced charges we pay for everything because of this lowball return industry, Albertans are paying the resource companies for taking the product out of province.

Advanced charges like what and more importantly compared to what other province?.. AB is one of 2 or 3 jurisdictions in North America that has NO DEBT, and for the first time in nearly 2 decades, has an operating deficit. As far as transporting SOME of the product out of the province, blame that on NIMBYism and not the Conservatives.

Clearly you're upset because you aren't getting some kind of personal, individual benefits and therefore it's the system's fault... Here's a wee hint for you: maybe it's you.


Quote: Originally Posted by cyberclark View Post

Jobs; Jobs. The biggest is the snow job they have managed to promote and it is only part time these days. If you are unsure what political filth and grafting is; look to Alberta.


Look at little harder (and I mean just a little) and you'll find reams of full time work - like I suggested earlier, maybe it's you.
 
cyberclark
#32
they have not been exporting Bulk water! Only packaged. Alberta has been able to spin the Jobs; Jobs and more Jobs to the public in a feel good program where in fact we have been the only thing that kept Canada alive in this recession.

Having said that, I will say Albertans have every right to expect more than jobs out of an industry. Resource is provincial and a good portion of the money should be taken off the top for the province.

This has not happened! They took drained the heritage trust fund into General Revenues and used it for day to day expenditures. General Revenues captures all the money from taxes and incomes of all kinds. If there is money left over it is attributed to resource revenue and, this is used as an excuse to further reduce the royalty.

The Education system has been changed. They dummed down the high school to point kids at the trade schools; NAIT Sait etc. They increased spending to the Trade Schools and froze spending to the universities since 1986. Universities are dying.

There is no reason for this at all! It is possible to fund both the trades and the universities. Now, if a kid has ideas they will do the eduction for a professional life they will find themselves ill prepared for university and more probably than not, fail at the attempt. Not because they are not suited but because their Government failed to prepare them for the path.

This Government make make work programs cementing old oil wells. Old well cement was found to be deteriorating and this put the water aquifers at risk. Multi millions was pumped into the oil industry. This makes jobs specific to an industry but there is no word back about what they did with the money. So; another subsidy.

The latest double talk by Liepert was designed in two parts. Firstly to distance themselves from the document called "new royalty regime" that they produced at the last election for election purpose. No truth to the document and no money was ever collected on it.

As the companion part to his BS he introduced still another subsidy to the oil companies. Drill a deep hole and we pay you by the meter drilled regardless of whether you produce anything or not. Oil companies are making a million profit on a well; paid out of tax dollars.

While I would like to support the industry I cannot help but think of the many thousands of people out there whose EI has run out; cannot get any more help are loosing their homes because there is no help from a Government who will support no one other than resource.

There is lots to talk about; I would rather do it on another blog and not detract from the Cross Canada press on exporting Bulk water which will cost every home in Canada any where from twice as much to 150 times as much for their water service.

Why Albertans are stuck on Conservative is beyond me. They are the worst possible thing that could have happened to this province. No other Political Party would shut down or hurt the oil business by unreasonable taxation except perhaps the NDP.

At best they would bring our royalty in line with that of BC and Saskatchewan while cleaning up the Government accounting system and possibly bringing in a Federal Security officer to keep oversight in honest which is sadly lacking.

Our present 12 to 16 billion dollar heritage trust was limited to 4% profits after stripping the original gains from it. Figure given by Iris Evans to stated 3 years ago our Heritage trust is showing a strong 4% growth.

$97.9 billion- If the government had allowed the Heritage Fund to reinvest its profits
, rather than using them to cut the deficit, pay off its debt and otherwise help with general government expenses

$57.2 billion- If the government had diverted a mere 1% of revenue to the fund starting in 1987, and had allowed profits to be reinvested

$164.5 billion - If the government had never taken a penny from the fund, and had continued to seed it with 30% of resource revenues from 1982 onward

$55.6 billion - If the government had kept adding 15% of resource revenues per year after 1987

$65.8 billion - If the government had treated the Heritage Fund like an endowment, letting the fund reinvest its profits and drawing out a fixed amount every year-say 4.5% of assets-and topping up the fund to account for inflation (as it eventually started to do in 2005), with no further royalty contributions after 1987 (figures as of march 2008 - Globe and Mail)
 
captain morgan
No Party Affiliation
#33
Quote: Originally Posted by cyberclark View Post

they have not been exporting Bulk water! Only packaged. Alberta has been able to spin the Jobs; Jobs and more Jobs to the public in a feel good program where in fact we have been the only thing that kept Canada alive in this recession.

What's your point? You named this thread in a manner that insinuated that AB was getting into the business of bulk exports, now you make a big flap about it being packaged water. How is this any different from the grain or beef exports that the province does?


Quote: Originally Posted by cyberclark View Post

They took drained the heritage trust fund into General Revenues and used it for day to day expenditures.

You are so full of it... Instead of spewing this baseless propaganda, take a look at these links and perhaps you'll generate an understanding based on fact ratehr than this BS your pushing.

Alberta Heritage Savings Trust Fund 2009-10 Annual Report

Detailed List of Investments at March 31, 2010




Quote: Originally Posted by cyberclark View Post

They increased spending to the Trade Schools and froze spending to the universities since 1986. Universities are dying.

A new University was opened in Calgary last year.


Quote: Originally Posted by cyberclark View Post

There is no reason for this at all! It is possible to fund both the trades and the universities. Now, if a kid has ideas they will do the eduction for a professional life they will find themselves ill prepared for university and more probably than not, fail at the attempt. Not because they are not suited but because their Government failed to prepare them for the path.


... I now understand where you're coming from.... You're one of those people that believe it's the job of government to wake you up in the morning, tuck you in at night and everything else in between... This way, there's no need for any personal responsibility or individual interest in determining your own path in life.

Sounds like Utopia



Quote: Originally Posted by cyberclark View Post

This Government make make work programs cementing old oil wells. Multi millions was pumped into the oil industry.

Those monies were charged to the industry in advance (directly and indirectly). All the gvt is doing is spending that cash in the area that they said they would.


Quote: Originally Posted by cyberclark View Post

This makes jobs specific to an industry but there is no word back about what they did with the money. So; another subsidy.

You answered the question yourself - the cash was spent on dealing with orphan wells and environmental issues... Again, the money was collected from the industry itself for that specific purpose and was spent accordingly... The only "subsidy" that exists in this case is exclusively in your mind.


Quote: Originally Posted by cyberclark View Post

The latest double talk by Liepert was designed in two parts. Firstly to distance themselves from the document called "new royalty regime" that they produced at the last election for election purpose. No truth to the document and no money was ever collected on it.

The gvt observed the decline in the industry that was directly related to those retarded increases in royalties... They did exactly what the needed to do and scrap the program before it did more damage.

One of the reasons that they reversed their course was to preserve jobs - you know, the jobsthat you're bitching about not being up to your high standards?


Quote: Originally Posted by cyberclark View Post

As the companion part to his BS he introduced still another subsidy to the oil companies. Drill a deep hole and we pay you by the meter drilled regardless of whether you produce anything or not. Oil companies are making a million profit on a well; paid out of tax dollars.


Learn a little about the actual program and finance before you paint yourself into a corner... That program exists as a tax deduction and NOT a direct cash infusion. That said, in order for the corp entity to get that benefit, they have to have revenues (profits) against which that tax benefit is balanced.

Just because an incentive is offered by gvt doesn't automatically qualify it as a subsidy.



Quote: Originally Posted by cyberclark View Post

While I would like to support the industry I cannot help but think of the many thousands of people out there whose EI has run out; cannot get any more help are loosing their homes because there is no help from a Government who will support no one other than resource.


And who is to blame for this? Hell, you're the guy that wants to drive out more oil/gas investment by upping royalty rates - exactly what do you think that will do to AB employment?

Really man, give your head a shake


Quote: Originally Posted by cyberclark View Post

There is lots to talk about; I would rather do it on another blog and not detract from the Cross Canada press on exporting Bulk water which will cost every home in Canada any where from twice as much to 150 times as much for their water service.

But, but, but... I thought you said is was not bulk water earlier?

Which is it to be?


Quote: Originally Posted by cyberclark View Post

Why Albertans are stuck on Conservative is beyond me. They are the worst possible thing that could have happened to this province. No other Political Party would shut down or hurt the oil business by unreasonable taxation except perhaps the NDP.


Include yourself with the NDP - are you not making an argument for higher royalties?

Quote: Originally Posted by cyberclark View Post

At best they would bring our royalty in line with that of BC and Saskatchewan

Time to connect the dots cyberclark... One of the big reasons that oil/gas investment/activity moved to Sask and BC was because of teh higher royaties being (proposed) by Stelmach.
 
cyberclark
#34
Quote captainmorgan What's your point? You named this thread in a manner that insinuated that AB was getting into the business of bulk exports, now you make a big flap about it being packaged water. How is this any different from the grain or beef exports that the province does?

Any amount of water in a container above 1 cu meter is said to be bulk and it is prohibited from moving under NAFTA or for export by any other means; until Harper and the Conservatives get their hands on it.

We are talking of rivers being tapped and lakes being drained. Hardly bottled water.

Quote captmorgan on heritage links. You are so full of it... Instead of spewing this baseless propaganda, take a look at these links and perhaps you'll generate an understanding based on fact ratehr than this BS your pushing.

Your link shows that in 1009 2010 there were 2 billion dollars transferred out of the Heritage Trust fund into General Revenues. If the original plan had been followed rather than the fund drained of everything the people of this province would be 63 billion dollars richer by way of the heritage trust.

Quote Capt Morgan; A new University was opened in Calgary last year.

Alberta has been moving towards the US private school system for the past dozen years. Calling a trade school a university does not make it worth anything more than a trade school. How employable is the degree from this new "U"? Our public system is dam near out the door!

Quote Captain Morgan You answered the question yourself - the cash was spent on dealing with orphan wells and environmental issues... Again, the money was collected from the industry itself for that specific purpose and was spent accordingly... The only "subsidy" that exists in this case is exclusively in your mind.

I have seen no record of where oil companies were charged in advance by the Government for cleaning up their mess in cementing. I did however see the Government create the make work program using money from Government.

Such a fund does not show up in the Government accounts and there is no mention of it in General revenues.

Quote captain Morgan ... I now understand where you're coming from.... You're one of those people that believe it's the job of government to wake you up in the morning, tuck you in at night and everything else in between... This way, there's no need for any personal responsibility or individual interest in determining your own path in life.


Tit for tat; I now understand where you are coming from a Conservative trying desperately to defend what is nothing more or less than a pack of robber barons called the Alberta Conservatives. Obviously one of the minority who has his hand in the pot happily coasting thinking that industry keeps everything and all the people of this province is entitled to is wages.

qUOTING captainmorgan
The gvt observed the decline in the industry that was directly related to those retarded increases in royalties... They did exactly what the needed to do and scrap the program before it did more damage.

One of the reasons that they reversed their course was to preserve jobs - you know, the jobsthat you're bitching about not being up to your high standards?

The price of oil had tanked the Conservatives were under the gun on the lowest royalty take in the world. Facing a scary election they produced a piece of paper that was to represent their big move to increase royalty. Because it was produced for the electorate, not the industry who were idle anyway, impossibly high numbers were put in place.

Our original deal was 25% producing and only 1% in start up until all bills were paid. The oil people pocketed the other 24% until they said their bills (entire start up costs which were never audited) were cleared. Fred Dunn AG bounced them for not having sufficient staff to do the work.

The new regime you speak of opened up at 25% at 50.00 per barrel which, was the original deal we had until these crooks reduced it to below 16% while talking a 19% target figure.
This same regime changed the royalty take from US$ to Can$ a loss at that time of 18%. By what stretch of your imagination do you see this as being reasonable?

As I said before Jobs Jobs Jobs. The biggest job being the snow job they have fed Albertans.

Now, oil is back drilling wells that don't produce and get a million bucks of taxpayer money to do it.

Quote Capt morgan Learn a little about the actual program and finance before you paint yourself into a corner... That program exists as a tax deduction and NOT a direct cash infusion. That said, in order for the corp entity to get that benefit, they have to have revenues (profits) against which that tax benefit is balanced.

Just because an incentive is offered by gvt doesn't automatically qualify it as a subsidy.

I can sense your frustration. When deductions are given to the oil industry and the revenues lost by those deduction are made up by the other taxes in Alberta it is a subsidy; no matter how you try to spin it.

This is beyond incentives. It is following a Conservative program that the corporate taxes must be kept as low as possible and any money left in Government and not in industry is a waste. This is the same all Conservatives. But, Alberta makes no distinction between profits from investment on trust accounts and investments made by Government for the benefit of that Governments finance.

Robbing the heritage trust like they have done can only be a betrayal.

I support oil and argue vehemently for them when the press runs wild with accuations that are unfounded. I am a friend of the oil industry but I say to you, either Alberta gets a reasonable deal or we shut down the dam industry and leave it until there is more money.

Saskatchewan was at 30% royalty. BC was a 30% royalty both in US dollars and the exchange was at 18%. Alberta was at 16% royalty and it was taken in Canadian dollars which means, we were going into the hole; paying oil to take the resource from the province!
 
Kakato
#35
Wonder who robbed the heritage trust fund,dude,you should go back 30 years and see where all the low interst loans from it went.
Then you can talk about it but you dont have a clue about it as far as I can see.Alberta should have just kept it for herself.

Too funny,trying to blame the cons on robbing the heritage trust fund.
Do your research before you post about it again.
 
cyberclark
#36
Quote: Originally Posted by Kakato View Post

Wonder who robbed the heritage trust fund,dude,you should go back 30 years and see where all the low interst loans from it went.
Then you can talk about it but you dont have a clue about it as far as I can see.Alberta should have just kept it for herself.

Too funny,trying to blame the cons on robbing the heritage trust fund.
Do your research before you post about it again.

The heritage trust fund was set up by Peter Lauheed's Government. Yes it was used to try to kick start business. It was growing great until this crew got a hold if it. and it was initially drawn down into general revenues, then profits pegged at 4% by this same Government. Anything above 4% was scooted into General Revenues and as a final result, used to bring down the royalty to the lowest in the world while goods and services were cut in Alberta.

Recently Mr Laugheed went to the media saying he disapproved of the way the Heritage trust was being treated.

This has been in the press for the last 15 years! My research is very solid, thank you.

Quote: Originally Posted by Kakato View Post

Wonder who robbed the heritage trust fund,dude,you should go back 30 years and see where all the low interst loans from it went.
Then you can talk about it but you dont have a clue about it as far as I can see.Alberta should have just kept it for herself.

Too funny,trying to blame the cons on robbing the heritage trust fund.
Do your research before you post about it again.


And, one more point:
The electrical deregulation; turning the utility over to cities to charge what ever they want for it and giving them license to gouge for still more drove away much of Alberta's start up industry and killed any chance for new starts.

They did this on purpose. They want to industry other than resource in this province.

And a segway from Heritage trust to CPP which Alberta is against. Ted Morton our American finance minister is on record of saying he wants an Alberta Pension Fund to take the place of any CPP additions.

I say he wants an Alberta version of CPP in Alberta so he has still another trough to draw from. He would treat an Alberta Pension just like he treated the Heritage trust fund. Milk it dry!
 
cyberclark
#37
Alaska moves to export bulk water! Two things; They are exporting to Africa where they do not have to deal in NAFTA and, they are not sending it to California. Why should we?
 
Cliffy
Free Thinker
#38
Quote: Originally Posted by cyberclark View Post

Alaska moves to export bulk water! Two things; They are exporting to Africa where they do not have to deal in NAFTA and, they are not sending it to California. Why should we?

A friend said yesterday that we should export the Athabasca water. Why not? We can't use it.
 
captain morgan
No Party Affiliation
#39
Quote: Originally Posted by cyberclark View Post

Quote captainmorgan What's your point? You named this thread in a manner that insinuated that AB was getting into the business of bulk exports, now you make a big flap about it being packaged water. How is this any different from the grain or beef exports that the province does?

Any amount of water in a container above 1 cu meter is said to be bulk and it is prohibited from moving under NAFTA or for export by any other means; until Harper and the Conservatives get their hands on it.

We are talking of rivers being tapped and lakes being drained. Hardly bottled water.


Lakes being drained, eh?.. No doubt that your argument incorporates elements of fear-based logic in order to get some attention. So, you'd be OK if one were to package .99999 cubic metres of water into flimsy packaging and mass transport it across the border? How about train-loads of 500ml bottles that cross daily?





Quote: Originally Posted by cyberclark View Post


Your link shows that in 1009 2010 there were 2 billion dollars transferred out of the Heritage Trust fund into General Revenues. If the original plan had been followed rather than the fund drained of everything the people of this province would be 63 billion dollars richer by way of the heritage trust.


Where did the 2 billion go?

On the point of the wealth that "could have been"... Had AB not transferred billions annually to Quebec through the feds, that fund would be many times bigger, however, that's an aside. Have you noticed the infrastructure development throughout the entire province in the last 10 years?

Those roads and hospitals don't build themselves.




Quote: Originally Posted by cyberclark View Post

Quote Capt Morgan; A new University was opened in Calgary last year.

Alberta has been moving towards the US private school system for the past dozen years. Calling a trade school a university does not make it worth anything more than a trade school. How employable is the degree from this new "U"? Our public system is dam near out the door!


The private system?.. Really.. can you prove this?

As for the schools, the Calgary institution is Mount Royal University... Clearly you are not familiar with these advances as you rely on off-handed comments that are without a basis in fact.



Quote: Originally Posted by cyberclark View Post

Quote Captain Morgan You answered the question yourself - the cash was spent on dealing with orphan wells and environmental issues... Again, the money was collected from the industry itself for that specific purpose and was spent accordingly... The only "subsidy" that exists in this case is exclusively in your mind.

I have seen no record of where oil companies were charged in advance by the Government for cleaning up their mess in cementing. I did however see the Government create the make work program using money from Government.

Such a fund does not show up in the Government accounts and there is no mention of it in General revenues.



Look harder and while you're at it, look at the industry developed funds that deal with these associated issues.





Quote: Originally Posted by cyberclark View Post

Quote captain Morgan ... I now understand where you're coming from.... You're one of those people that believe it's the job of government to wake you up in the morning, tuck you in at night and everything else in between... This way, there's no need for any personal responsibility or individual interest in determining your own path in life.


Tit for tat; I now understand where you are coming from a Conservative trying desperately to defend what is nothing more or less than a pack of robber barons called the Alberta Conservatives. Obviously one of the minority who has his hand in the pot happily coasting thinking that industry keeps everything and all the people of this province is entitled to is wages.



Again, you rely on partisan rhetoric and spin to exaggerate a point... Anyone that moves forward and advances must be on the take with the gvt.. That's nothing but rubbish and conspiracy theory.

Fact is, AB is the most business friendly jurisdiction in the country and it shows.... No provincial (long-term) debt, a GDP that is floating the rest of the nation and a provincial tax structure that attracts the H.O.'s of national entities... There is a reason why other provinces have been emulating the AB model cyberclark, it's because it is effective, it works and it is the antithesis of teh Taft mentality.



Quote: Originally Posted by cyberclark View Post


Now, oil is back drilling wells that don't produce and get a million bucks of taxpayer money to do it.


Where can I get my million bucks cyberclark?... I'm working with a group that is posied to drill over 100 shallow and mid wells.. $100 million will from the gvt will liminate the need to raise money or go public, hell, maybe we ought to drill 500 wells and make a 100 million in profit, eh?

I'm guessing that you won't be able to tell me where to get the million per well right?... No link either, eh?





Quote: Originally Posted by cyberclark View Post

When deductions are given to the oil industry and the revenues lost by those deduction are made up by the other taxes in Alberta it is a subsidy; no matter how you try to spin it.



Wrong. A tax incentive is not a subsidy, tax-based breaks apply:
  1. only after the money is spent
  2. are assessed against revenues/profits
  3. are in no way an actual cash infusion

Revenues are made up through increased spending, employment and activity - all of which are taxable components... The gvt makes more money in the long and short run by having more transactions occurring throughout the equation.

Taft's pathetic little plan would hammer the people/companies spending/investing which would result in fewer expenditures that would reduce the number of transactions in the system which would minimize the potential taxes collected... Ofcourse, liberal logic will respond by raising the taxes on the remaining players in order to maintain the tax base. Of course, that will restrict transactions further and perpetuate the downward spiral.


Quote: Originally Posted by cyberclark View Post

Saskatchewan was at 30% royalty. BC was a 30% royalty both in US dollars and the exchange was at 18%. Alberta was at 16% royalty and it was taken in Canadian dollars which means, we were going into the hole; paying oil to take the resource from the province!


BC and Sask are no where near those original royalty rates for a reason cyberclark and the reason is that they pussy-footed around for decades holding-out for a deal.. That deal never came and now they are decades behind in their provincial infrastructure that supports the industry.

they've seen the light and are getting smart.
 
lonenewfwolf
No Party Affiliation
#40
Quote: Originally Posted by wulfie68 View Post

A couple things to note:

- water used by the oil companies is used to replace the fluid (oil) pumped out of the reservoirs to keep the pressure in the reservoirs higher, allowing them to get more oil out of the reservoirs. They won't be exporting it.
- water used by the oil companies can be but isn't limited to surface/potable ground water aquifers. The regulatory bodies in Alberta, especially in the last decade or two have leaned more and more on the oil companies to use deeper aquifers that are non-potable.
- there are bottled water companies already in Canada that are allowed to export water, not just in Alberta. They usually operate as subsidiarys of Pepsi and Coca Cola bottlers but there are some other independent companies.


bottled water is not bulk water, and therefore not a commodity. it is a good. read nafta. no go on the water sale boys, get over it.

Quote: Originally Posted by Bar Sinister View Post

Canada? It would make more sense to move them from Alaska.

not if you're talking about newfoundland and labrador. we got lots of 'em, and we plan on keepin' em.

Quote: Originally Posted by cyberclark View Post

One last word on the subject of water export under NAFTA,

Because we cannot charge the Americans more than we pay ourselves under the agreement, it is the Conservative plan to drastically increase the price of water to the Canadian consumers thereby opening the door to greater profits on the export side of things.

This is why EPCOR is the highest priced water in the world! This is why municipalities are quickly upping their fees. The town of Devon as an example recently increased their water fees by 25% without so much as a nod to the citizens.

They plan on more increases.

How this moved so fast and far in Alberta:
The province invented a whole new level of indirect taxation in shelling off the power lines to Calgary and Edmonton and now, the water.

Much of the water allotments were given free to the cities and towns. In the Case of Calgary, both Coke and Calgary Brewing received their aquifer allotments free of charge and are now in the position of selling them to the city.

Much of the provincial expenditures were downloaded to the communities also.

It was an easy sale. Take the utilities and you have and endless amount of cash coming in. You will not have to go to the citizens for approval; just charge what you want! There will be no more going to the citizens for a mill rate increase fight.

This is coming to the rest of Canada. Your cost of living is going to increase dramatically if the Conservatives are allowed to maintain power.

brrr. dude. that gives me chills. too bad for them the jig is almost up. people are awakening to the mess we're in.

Quote: Originally Posted by Kakato View Post

Nantons been exporting water for years and years,why no outcry about that?

Albertas also leading the country in jobs,cut them and all the east will be relying on govt. money again,if a royalty cut provides jobs then im all for it,maybe you just have a hate on for Alberta?????
Sure looks like it.

Anyone wants to see the jobs created by the energy industry for eastern Canadians only has to spend 1 hour in fort mc murray.

They should have sent all the Newfs over to Iraq as they took over fort Mac without firing a shot.

easy there hot shot. newfoundland has given more to this country than workers in fort mac. we let em take our fish for ontario factory workers, iror ore for quebec to process and our hydro for quebec to subsidize its aerospace industry etc.

its give and take. and we've given alot.
 
CDNBear
#41
Quote: Originally Posted by lonenewfwolf View Post

we've given alot.

And taken a whole lot more...
 
lonenewfwolf
No Party Affiliation
#42
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBear View Post

And taken a whole lot more...

that wouldn't be our collective opinion. lots of intangibles in the mix, but if you start adding up the exports per capita of our province compared to the rest of ya, and then add in historic contributions over the past 500 years, i'd say this place has done its share of the work that has gone into making this country a great place to live and be free.
 
B00Mer
No Party Affiliation
#43
I thought Alberta was in a water shortage???

The wanted to build the largest mall in North America in Balzac, Alberta but couldn't find a large enough water source.. Calgary or Ardrie didn't want to supply ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CrossIron_Mills

 
cyberclark
#44
Quote: Originally Posted by captain morgan View Post

Lakes being drained, eh?.. No doubt that your argument incorporates elements of fear-based logic in order to get some attention. So, you'd be OK if one were to package .99999 cubic metres of water into flimsy packaging and mass transport it across the border? How about train-loads of 500ml bottles that cross daily?








Where did the 2 billion go?

On the point of the wealth that "could have been"... Had AB not transferred billions annually to Quebec through the feds, that fund would be many times bigger, however, that's an aside. Have you noticed the infrastructure development throughout the entire province in the last 10 years?

Those roads and hospitals don't build themselves.







The private system?.. Really.. can you prove this?

As for the schools, the Calgary institution is Mount Royal University... Clearly you are not familiar with these advances as you rely on off-handed comments that are without a basis in fact.







Look harder and while you're at it, look at the industry developed funds that deal with these associated issues.









Again, you rely on partisan rhetoric and spin to exaggerate a point... Anyone that moves forward and advances must be on the take with the gvt.. That's nothing but rubbish and conspiracy theory.

Fact is, AB is the most business friendly jurisdiction in the country and it shows.... No provincial (long-term) debt, a GDP that is floating the rest of the nation and a provincial tax structure that attracts the H.O.'s of national entities... There is a reason why other provinces have been emulating the AB model cyberclark, it's because it is effective, it works and it is the antithesis of teh Taft mentality.






Where can I get my million bucks cyberclark?... I'm working with a group that is posied to drill over 100 shallow and mid wells.. $100 million will from the gvt will liminate the need to raise money or go public, hell, maybe we ought to drill 500 wells and make a 100 million in profit, eh?

I'm guessing that you won't be able to tell me where to get the million per well right?... No link either, eh?









Wrong. A tax incentive is not a subsidy, tax-based breaks apply:

  1. only after the money is spent
  2. are assessed against revenues/profits
  3. are in no way an actual cash infusion

Revenues are made up through increased spending, employment and activity - all of which are taxable components... The gvt makes more money in the long and short run by having more transactions occurring throughout the equation.

Taft's pathetic little plan would hammer the people/companies spending/investing which would result in fewer expenditures that would reduce the number of transactions in the system which would minimize the potential taxes collected... Ofcourse, liberal logic will respond by raising the taxes on the remaining players in order to maintain the tax base. Of course, that will restrict transactions further and perpetuate the downward spiral.





BC and Sask are no where near those original royalty rates for a reason cyberclark and the reason is that they pussy-footed around for decades holding-out for a deal.. That deal never came and now they are decades behind in their provincial infrastructure that supports the industry.

they've seen the light and are getting smart.

Nice to visit with a guy from the industry. Conventional drilling royalty is down to 5% Canadian In Alberta. That is not even a break even number, it means we are paying the producers for taking the oil out of the province! This is locked in for 5 years! Where in your wildest imagination do you consider this to be adequate?

Your are spouting the same BS as the Government does. All Albertan's are entitled to is land sales and income tax. This is patently wrong!

Quote: Originally Posted by lonenewfwolf View Post

bottled water is not bulk water, and therefore not a commodity. it is a good. read nafta. no go on the water sale boys, get over it.



not if you're talking about newfoundland and labrador. we got lots of 'em, and we plan on keepin' em.


brrr. dude. that gives me chills. too bad for them the jig is almost up. people are awakening to the mess we're in.


easy there hot shot. newfoundland has given more to this country than workers in fort mac. we let em take our fish for ontario factory workers, iror ore for quebec to process and our hydro for quebec to subsidize its aerospace industry etc.

its give and take. and we've given alot.

Well lonewolf it is you who are confused or at least trying to screw up the thoughts on the blogs. Any liquid container which is greater than 1 cubic meter is said to be in bulk and bulk rules and regulations apply. Bottled water is not part of the conversations as far as protecting our supplies goes. And, for 2 cents worth Nanton Water does a great job!

Lakes are not generally used to draw water from (except in Alberta's oil industry where out of sight is out of mind) This is because most lakes do not have a feed supply that is measurable. Water drafts in most jurisdictions comes from Rivers. And while I am on this subject the draft trucks that take the water from the lakes also haul other stuff for disposal and/or use.

They usually flush their tanks out into the lakes before they load their precious water.

Out of sight; out of mind.
 
captain morgan
No Party Affiliation
#45
Quote: Originally Posted by cyberclark View Post

Nice to visit with a guy from the industry. Conventional drilling royalty is down to 5% Canadian In Alberta.


5% of what?


Quote: Originally Posted by cyberclark View Post

That is not even a break even number, it means we are paying the producers for taking the oil out of the province! This is locked in for 5 years! Where in your wildest imagination do you consider this to be adequate?

.. So, 0% would be better?

Would you expect that by increasing royalty rates that more groups would race to the game?


Quote: Originally Posted by cyberclark View Post

Your are spouting the same BS as the Government does. All Albertan's are entitled to is land sales and income tax. This is patently wrong!

And, you're spewing the identical nonsense that got Taft booted from public life.
 
B00Mer
No Party Affiliation
#46
soon, in the news we will here Alberta seperates fron Canada and becomes the 51st state... lol

I am sure the USA and the Tea Party would love this... lol
 
captain morgan
No Party Affiliation
#47
Quote: Originally Posted by cyberclark View Post


Lakes are not generally used to draw water from (except in Alberta's oil industry where out of sight is out of mind)

Must be those "invisible lakes" that I heard about on Discovery Channel.


Quote: Originally Posted by cyberclark View Post

They usually flush their tanks out into the lakes before they load their precious water.

Out of sight; out of mind.

How do they actual find the invisible lake in which to reload?
 
petros
#48
I just looked out the window and I say SELL SELL SELL.
 
damngrumpy
No Party Affiliation
#49
This is much more important than Alberta's interest, it is in fact Canada's interest.
We should under no circumstance allow bulk water sales to any country it should
be the domain of Canadians. We on this planet will soon be facing enormous costs
for three main commodities, at present bulk water is not part of the free trade
agreements and we must keep it that way. Water, Food and Oil are going to be
the real money value of the planet and we must ensure that we have plenty, it is not
for sale, trade, or gifts. Canada is sitting on top of the world when it comes to these
products.
We should ensure we have an eternal supply of water, as long as we own the rights
to our own nation. Second We must maintain control over all farmland in fact we
should and need to pass laws that ensures all farmland is owned and controlled by
Canadian farmers for feeding Canadians first. Third we should make sure that we have
an adequate supply of oil from known reserves that will last for the next two centuries.
These products are ours and we should keep them for future generations.
I am not saying we should not export either oil, if we have enough, or food it is a renewable
resource, but we should control all farmland for our national interests. As for water it is
the source of life, it is ours and I see no reason to turn it over to private interests to sell
our rightful ownerships of water as a society.
Is that nationalistic damn right, is it somewhat selfish, damn right and I think we should
speak up for Canadian interests first
 
cyberclark
#50
Quote: Originally Posted by damngrumpy View Post

This is much more important than Alberta's interest, it is in fact Canada's interest.
We should under no circumstance allow bulk water sales to any country it should
be the domain of Canadians. We on this planet will soon be facing enormous costs
for three main commodities, at present bulk water is not part of the free trade
agreements and we must keep it that way. Water, Food and Oil are going to be
the real money value of the planet and we must ensure that we have plenty, it is not
for sale, trade, or gifts. Canada is sitting on top of the world when it comes to these
products.
We should ensure we have an eternal supply of water, as long as we own the rights
to our own nation. Second We must maintain control over all farmland in fact we
should and need to pass laws that ensures all farmland is owned and controlled by
Canadian farmers for feeding Canadians first. Third we should make sure that we have
an adequate supply of oil from known reserves that will last for the next two centuries.
These products are ours and we should keep them for future generations.
I am not saying we should not export either oil, if we have enough, or food it is a renewable
resource, but we should control all farmland for our national interests. As for water it is
the source of life, it is ours and I see no reason to turn it over to private interests to sell
our rightful ownerships of water as a society.
Is that nationalistic damn right, is it somewhat selfish, damn right and I think we should
speak up for Canadian interests first

Alberta has now privatized all the water in the Province. What they are doing is obscene!
They give oil companies water allotments far greater than what they require. Then, they tell the communities who find they are short of water to buy the allotment from the oil companies. Millions of dollars at play here the most recent being Okotoks, AB.

Meanwhile, communities are in the mix big time. Edmonton has the highest price water in the world (National Geographic April 2010).
Communities like Devon and Red Deer have upped their water prices. The former, by 25% because they could. They explain they are middle of the pack in pricing. A similar increase just took place in Red Deer, AB and they put forward the same reasoning.

When they place the price of their water against Edmonton they certainly look like they are middle of the pack but, the Conservatives are trying to push the water higher to support higher export prices under NAFTA.

More important, if that is possible, Alberta is setting up Bulk Water Exports from our ground water. This, while elsewhere in the world people are fighting to protect their ground water from export.

In my blog, I have put up several allotments and will put more up when I get to it.

Here are some links for a start. In the top left corner you can enter a search and turn up water electricity what ever else they have ripped off by subject posts.


Alberta--The Details: Water for Sale: Southern Alberta.

Alberta--The Details: Alberta commercialized water; hold outs for more bucks!

Alberta--The Details: Canada Bulk Water Export: NDP strongly opposed.

Alberta--The Details: Canada Bulk Water Exports to US and abroad is imminent!

Alberta--The Details: Alberta Conservativs Pushing US style system.

And, the one which is most important is this: Alberta--The Details: Canada is under seige from within!

The latter shows an organization of Western and Northern Governments who are in a position now to separate from Canada. If not that they will certainly do away with CPP (Morton is the hold out in resiting enlarging it) OAS and Canadian Health Care is on the line.

As no time in history, Canadians have to pull together and get the Conservatives, Federal and Provincial out of office. That, is the only cure for what ails us now!
 
damngrumpy
No Party Affiliation
#51
In many cases like here in BC Okanagan Lake is a Federal Waterway and comes under the
Federal Governments Jurisdiction. It is the Department of Fisheries and Oceans that controls
water on a national level. In the area of trade internationally the federal government still has the
control over the export of water. Privatization is one thing exporting it is something else.
We must ensure that water remains a Canadian Domain in Canada period.
Government must control water as it becomes the life force for us all and we do not want to be
in the position of sharing it through some trade deal when our own children and grandchildren
could end up without an adequate supply of water, or and secure supply of homegrown food.
or for that matter an reliable energy supply. In many cases I am an economic nationalist in that
I want access to Canadian resources in the hands of Canadians. It can be government or
private owned but it must come under the legislative protection of a strong federal government
when it come to Canadian access.
 
Avro
No Party Affiliation
#52
Glad to see Alberta acting like...well....Alberta.
 
cyberclark
#53
Quote: Originally Posted by damngrumpy View Post

In many cases like here in BC Okanagan Lake is a Federal Waterway and comes under the
Federal Governments Jurisdiction. It is the Department of Fisheries and Oceans that controls
water on a national level. In the area of trade internationally the federal government still has the
control over the export of water. Privatization is one thing exporting it is something else.
We must ensure that water remains a Canadian Domain in Canada period.
Government must control water as it becomes the life force for us all and we do not want to be
in the position of sharing it through some trade deal when our own children and grandchildren
could end up without an adequate supply of water, or and secure supply of homegrown food.
or for that matter an reliable energy supply. In many cases I am an economic nationalist in that
I want access to Canadian resources in the hands of Canadians. It can be government or
private owned but it must come under the legislative protection of a strong federal government
when it come to Canadian access.

I wouldn't be too sure the Feds still control export of water.
The recent changes in legislation that the Conservatives touted as distancing the Fed from Exporting water is true enough; what they did is turn the powers of bulk water export over to the provinces. Noticeably exempt and still under Federal Control is the Navigatabile Waters which takes a strike of the Federal Pen to change in less time than it takes to write this comment.
From June 16-2010:British Columbia Premier Gordon Campbell joined his counterparts from Saskatchewan, Manitoba,Northwest Territories, Yukon and Nunavut for the two-day conference at the Pan Pacific Hotel.

Followed by:

Lawrence Cannon – Min of Foreign Affairs – Transboundary Waters Protection Act – May 13, 2010
“The new act strengthens existing protections by bringing waters within federal jurisdiction under a more comprehensive prohibition against bulk water removals. Rivers and streams that cross international borders will now receive the same protection already in place for waters, such as the Great Lakes, that straddle them.


The Act gives the federal government new powers of inspection and enforcement and introduces tough new penalties for violations, including fines of up to $6 million for corporate violations. The bill offers unprecedented federal protection against bulk water exports while respecting provincial constitutional jurisdiction.”

What the above does is put Canada's water in one pail so to speak; any of which is available for export when the rules of NAFTA are changed!


Minister Cannon Tables the Transboundary Waters Protection Act to Protect Canadian Waters

Bill C-26 – Summary of the bill can be found here.

The Transboundary Waters Protection Act


On a preview I just caught of Harper's interview on CBC tonight, he is saying he is about to change this country to that the Liberals will never recognize it.

If people elect these SOBs again, that is exactly what will happen.
 
dumpthemonarchy
Free Thinker
#54
Selling bottled water is okay, but bulk water is a big no no. In the future, water, energy and food are key and we have to keep as many rights as possible regarding these three essential elements for our economic future.
 
petros
#55
Either water goes south or people come north...or they could start by ban swimming pools or move the **** out of the desert.
 
GreenFish66
#56
It would seem Our Leaders would sell us all up the river for little more than a money filled hand shake...

Our " So Called" Leaders seem to be little more than Accounting Puppets for the U.S...

They Will have us Dig Rivers , Build Pipe lines from North to the South America , Rape, Pillage, Strip our resources clean ..Until this Beautiful Country is no more than a Slimmey Sink Hole/A Barren Waste land ..Sell It All Under the banner of Job Creation...It is Sad ...And Unsustainable.. Canadian Political Leaders need to grow some "BALLS N' BRAINS N' Better Business Sense..!
Last edited by GreenFish66; Jan 17th, 2011 at 09:27 PM..
 
cyberclark
#57
Quote: Originally Posted by GreenFish66 View Post

It would seem Our Leaders would sell us all up the river for little more than a money filled hand shake...

Our " So Called" Leaders seem to be little more than Accounting Puppets for the U.S...

They Will have us Dig Rivers , Build Pipe lines from North to the South America , Rape, Pillage, Strip our resources clean ..Until this Beautiful Country is no more than a Slimmey Sink Hole/A Barren Waste land ..Sell It All Under the banner of Job Creation...It is Sad ...And Unsustainable.. Canadian Political Leaders need to grow some "BALLS N' BRAINS N' Better Business Sense..!

The Alberta Government and the BC Government are working hand in hand on water exports. The major project is moving 2/3s of the Peace River South to the US border. This project is immense and was fully engineered in the 80s. It is good to go! Here is how BC and Alberta team on this:
Alberta builds the pipeline and BC builds a new dam on the Peace. BC tells the population it is for electricity but the amount of electricity they will take from this dam is very small.

The operation: A sump is formed between the existing dam and the new dam. This sum will be the head of the new pipeline. It will have to delivery water year around so, a man made lake (sump) is needed to supply the line.

I am working on a new post, the cause and effect of the Conservatives moves on Canada It will be an interesting read with major detail for those who will take the time. It should be ready to go up within 2 days. When I post I will put a link here.
 
GreenFish66
#58
Yes ..Very interesting CyberClark
Last edited by GreenFish66; Jan 18th, 2011 at 11:18 PM..
 
cyberclark
#59
Here is my critique of our politics as promised; we are in some very major trouble
 

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