Spiritual Anarchy

Cliffy
#1
This is something I wrote a few years ago in a regular column in a Nelson philosophical rag. Thought it might stimulate some discussion from the religious and non-religious. Allywayzalwayz was asking for a new topic that isn't being murdered in the News.

Like many baby boomers I saw the folly of the great American dream; the hard sell jingles of the post war consumer machine. I decided to leave it all to Beaver and strike out in search of my own vision. Down the road from childhood Catholicism to present day Spiritual Anarchist, it has been an interesting, frightening, joyous, painful and, sometimes, insane journey.
I realize now that all the years I spent reading, talking, participating in all the various schools of thought, spiritual paths, teachings and rituals had little to do with where I am within myself today. I tried everything from tofu and grass clippings to tying myself in yogic knots; from sweat lodges to Psychic healing; from Christianity to Native Spirituality. Some have kindled the divine spark, which dwells in each of us, enough to cause me to ponder their significance.
The only thing any of it taught me was to listen to my own guidance - the little voice within. Looking back, I cannot chart the course of my journey by my studies but more by the inspiration and guidance I received from life itself. It may be divine clown or demonic madman to some but to me it is an accepted part of my reality - even though there are still times I chose not to listen to the message. The path I follow may seem strange and dangerous to the timid but as Allen Watts said, “Belief is holding to a rock and faith is learning how to swim.” Life is a act of faith. All of our beliefs about life are just rocks. Life is not static or constant. It has its own agenda and will never fit into any mold which we may try to stuff it in.
A common belief is that the truth is universal. The truth is the truth, right? Well is it? The truth to a middle class suburban house wife is not likely to mean much to an aborigine living on grubs in the desert of Australia. Have you ever tried to get five people to agree on something - anything?
What I have discovered is that the truth is relative to the beholder. I have come to the conclusion that if a truth needs defending, then it is probably not true and the defender is usually on shaky ground. A person who knows their truth will not need to convince anybody of its validity. They will just quietly become their truth.
Nobody can show you the way. Each of our lives is unique and the truth of it is unique to each of us. Nobody else can know your truth, your reality or your purpose for being here. All the spiritual teachers have only been able to tell us how they got to their understanding of their own truth.
You can use some of their methods, if you desire, but in the end you will have to set out on your own hero’s journey, fight your own demons, risk your own life to discover your own truth.
I once read a book about astral projection in which the author discussed the silver cord some say connects the astral body to the physical one. He said, “If you see the cord, cut it”. Freedom comes from letting go of rocks, teachers, leaders and beliefs. Jesus is reported to have said, “The Kingdom of God is within”. You will never find it looking outside yourself.
I don’t claim to know or believe in anything. I do, however, have faith that life - my life, all life - is unfolding as it should; that each and every one of us on this journey is doing our part in the great cosmic drama which is unfolding every minute - with or without our co-operation. We may complain about our part, or try to manipulate circumstances to suit ouselves but in the end, Life will unfold as it will. So it makes more sense to learn how to flow with it than to be bowled over by it.
As has been said before, “Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans”. Or as Ram Das put it, “Life is a school. Take the curriculum”.
 
In Between Man
#2
Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy View Post

. Allywayzalwayz was asking for a new topic that isn't being murdered in the News.

Thank you.

Quote:

What I have discovered is that the truth is relative to the beholder.

I really wish there was an smiley character with his hand over his eyes, sighing.

Cliffy ol' pal, please read this thread, and if you still want to have this discussion, then return to this thread for some friendly debate(reference: question#1).

...

Q1) Is your above statement a relative truth?
Last edited by In Between Man; Jan 22nd, 2009 at 01:18 AM..Reason: d
 
In Between Man
#3
Sorry, I failed to mention: We may have to continue this debate tomorrow, I got work tomorrow, and I'm kinda sleepy.
 
Cliffy
#4
alleywayzalwayz,

To me truth is subjective, not objective - it is subject to personal interpretation. I read that thread and you like to use a big stick in your "debates". Like many religious types that I have had discussions with, you assume that another's beliefs that you don't agree with are attacks on your personal beliefs. You think there are universal truths that are indisputable and when someone does not accept them as truth, you seem to feel a need to browbeat them into seeing your way. I don't call that debate, I call it a slug fest.

I take things as dynamic rather than static. I don't mind discussions because I can always learn something from another's perspective. I find religious debates never go anywhere and usually end in dead lock.
 
L Gilbert
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy View Post

This is something I wrote a few years ago in a regular column in a Nelson philosophical rag. Thought it might stimulate some discussion from the religious and non-religious. Allywayzalwayz was asking for a new topic that isn't being murdered in the News.

Like many baby boomers I saw the folly of the great American dream; the hard sell jingles of the post war consumer machine. I decided to leave it all to Beaver and strike out in search of my own vision. Down the road from childhood Catholicism to present day Spiritual Anarchist, it has been an interesting, frightening, joyous, painful and, sometimes, insane journey.
I realize now that all the years I spent reading, talking, participating in all the various schools of thought, spiritual paths, teachings and rituals had little to do with where I am within myself today. I tried everything from tofu and grass clippings to tying myself in yogic knots; from sweat lodges to Psychic healing; from Christianity to Native Spirituality. Some have kindled the divine spark, which dwells in each of us, enough to cause me to ponder their significance.
The only thing any of it taught me was to listen to my own guidance - the little voice within. Looking back, I cannot chart the course of my journey by my studies but more by the inspiration and guidance I received from life itself. It may be divine clown or demonic madman to some but to me it is an accepted part of my reality - even though there are still times I chose not to listen to the message. The path I follow may seem strange and dangerous to the timid but as Allen Watts said, “Belief is holding to a rock and faith is learning how to swim.” Life is a act of faith. All of our beliefs about life are just rocks. Life is not static or constant. It has its own agenda and will never fit into any mold which we may try to stuff it in.
A common belief is that the truth is universal. The truth is the truth, right? Well is it? The truth to a middle class suburban house wife is not likely to mean much to an aborigine living on grubs in the desert of Australia. Have you ever tried to get five people to agree on something - anything?
What I have discovered is that the truth is relative to the beholder. I have come to the conclusion that if a truth needs defending, then it is probably not true and the defender is usually on shaky ground. A person who knows their truth will not need to convince anybody of its validity. They will just quietly become their truth.
Nobody can show you the way. Each of our lives is unique and the truth of it is unique to each of us. Nobody else can know your truth, your reality or your purpose for being here. All the spiritual teachers have only been able to tell us how they got to their understanding of their own truth.
You can use some of their methods, if you desire, but in the end you will have to set out on your own hero’s journey, fight your own demons, risk your own life to discover your own truth.
I once read a book about astral projection in which the author discussed the silver cord some say connects the astral body to the physical one. He said, “If you see the cord, cut it”. Freedom comes from letting go of rocks, teachers, leaders and beliefs. Jesus is reported to have said, “The Kingdom of God is within”. You will never find it looking outside yourself.
I don’t claim to know or believe in anything. I do, however, have faith that life - my life, all life - is unfolding as it should; that each and every one of us on this journey is doing our part in the great cosmic drama which is unfolding every minute - with or without our co-operation. We may complain about our part, or try to manipulate circumstances to suit ouselves but in the end, Life will unfold as it will. So it makes more sense to learn how to flow with it than to be bowled over by it.
As has been said before, “Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans”. Or as Ram Das put it, “Life is a school. Take the curriculum”.

But, that's only your truth, right?
 
Cliffy
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by L Gilbert View Post

But, that's only your truth, right?

But of course. Isn't that what the blurb is about? If the truth is only relevant to the beholder, then I am free to agree with anybody because what they say is true to them. Why should I try to convince anybody that they are wrong and I am right if everybody is right (in their own mind)? If you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, who am I to say you are a wacko. Hell, I don't expect anybody to agree with my view. I just put it out there in the hopes that perhaps there is some common ground with someone who I can talk to in a civil manner.
 
Cannuck
#7
"A common belief is that the truth is universal. The truth is the truth, right? Well is it? The truth to a middle class suburban house wife is not likely to mean much to an aborigine living on grubs in the desert of Australia. Have you ever tried to get five people to agree on something - anything?
What I have discovered is that the truth is relative to the beholder. I have come to the conclusion that if a truth needs defending, then it is probably not true and the defender is usually on shaky ground. A person who knows their truth will not need to convince anybody of its validity. They will just quietly become their truth."

The truth is the truth. The reason it's difficult to get five people to agree on anything is because their perspectives and their understandings are different. That is why neither you nor I have ever been "wrong" in our particular approach to something. We have only lacked a full understanding.
 
Cliffy
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by Cannuck View Post

The truth is the truth. The reason it's difficult to get five people to agree on anything is because their perspectives and their understandings are different. That is why neither you nor I have ever been "wrong" in our particular approach to something. We have only lacked a full understanding.


We can never see the truth through the eyes of another, through their perspective. Their understanding is based on their life experiences, are coloured by them. I suppose that instead of the truth only being relative to the beholder, I could say their take on the truth is only relative to them, but it seems a little like splitting hairs.

Just take the belief in god. To some it is true and to others it is fantasy. You could no more convince me that your belief in god is based on truth or fact than I could convince you otherwise. Does this make either of us wrong? And who has full understanding of anything. I could not know what you understand any more than you could know what I understand or how we got that understanding.

But we could accept that the other came to their conclusions based on their life experiences. It would make for a lot less conflict - but then, if everybody got along it might be a rather dull existence, eh!
 
Zan
#9
I once heard a wonderfully liberating saying:

"My belief does not require me to convince you of its' truth".

Think about that. What onus is upon any one of us to convince any one else that what is true for one must be true for another?

Everything in life is relative, and in the context of this discussion, that includes truth. imo.
 
darkbeaver
#10
Cliffy that's as nice a defence of the individual as I'v seen, but for the sake of discussion I'll disagree entirely. Individuality is a powerfull illusion. At no time are we the individual except in false objectivity. Our lives are products of experiance of great duration and diversity, we will always be connected to our ancestors, there is no escape from them. Maybe the original sin was adopting the conciet to imagine ourselves apart from the whole even when we know deep down without doubt that we cannot exist as islands we struggle with that truth to no avail except perhaps some tiny personal agrandizment. The truth is that many of us are looking for comfort and not truth some corner where we can hide from the on rush of time and circumstance. In my humble opinion there is truth, solid and undivisable, it may be that the value of truth is in the journey toward truth for in all truth it does not require the human for it's actualization. For me there is no comfort great enough to abandone the journey, I can run but I cannot hide.
 
Cliffy
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaver View Post

Cliffy that's as nice a defence of the individual as I'v seen, but for the sake of discussion I'll disagree entirely. Individuality is a powerfull illusion. At no time are we the individual except in false objectivity. Our lives are products of experiance of great duration and diversity, we will always be connected to our ancestors, there is no escape from them. Maybe the original sin was adopting the conciet to imagine ourselves apart from the whole even when we know deep down without doubt that we cannot exist as islands we struggle with that truth to no avail except perhaps some tiny personal agrandizment. The truth is that many of us are looking for comfort and not truth some corner where we can hide from the on rush of time and circumstance. In my humble opinion there is truth, solid and undivisable, it may be that the value of truth is in the journey toward truth for in all truth it does not require the human for it's actualization. For me there is no comfort great enough to abandone the journey, I can run but I cannot hide.

I see our consciousness as multi layered: 1) the individual bag of skin, 2) The immediate group, 3) your community, 4) Your country, 5) Your species. I suppose you could ad a few in between. What you are referring to is species or even mammalian consciousness. What I was talking about is you bag of skin. I agree with you but what you said is about the multiple layers.
 
Cliffy
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by Zan View Post

I once heard a wonderfully liberating saying:

"My belief does not require me to convince you of its' truth".

Think about that. What onus is upon any one of us to convince any one else that what is true for one must be true for another?

Everything in life is relative, and in the context of this discussion, that includes truth. imo.

To which I agree completely.
 
In Between Man
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy View Post

I read that thread and you like to use a big stick in your "debates".

You think there are universal truths that are indisputable and when someone does not accept them as truth, you seem to feel a need to browbeat them into seeing your way. I don't call that debate, I call it a slug fest.

That particular debate is actually a funny, long story. SJP was really new here, we had a full discussion beforehand, and after he held his position for a really long time, I tried to pin him in the ring. It was all in good fun, don't worry, we're pals.

Quote:

Like many religious types that I have had discussions with, you assume that another's beliefs that you don't agree with are attacks on your personal beliefs.

I'm not religious, and don't consider differing opinions an attack. I'm wrong often and willfully admit that in my posts.

Quote:

I take things as dynamic rather than static. I don't mind discussions because I can always learn something from another's perspective. I find religious debates never go anywhere and usually end in dead lock.

I'm not looking for a debate on religion, what I want is a friendly debate on the topic: truth.

Quote:

it is subject to personal interpretation.

No its not. Its interpreted, but that doesn't change the correct answer. If you interpret 2 + 2 to equal 5, does that make it the correct answer? Of course not! 2 + 2 equals 4!

Answer this please - Question 1 again:

Quote:

truth is subjective, not objective

Is that a relative truth?
Last edited by In Between Man; Jan 22nd, 2009 at 10:33 PM..Reason: d
 
Cliffy
#14
Is that a relative truth?

It is the truth as I see it, or at least it was when I wrote it. To me it is dynamic, morphing as my experiences in life ad more to my understanding of reality.

BTW, I was watching a documentary on the ancient Polynesian navigators (I believe) and they could prove 2+2=5 mathematically. Now there is a relative truth.
 
china
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy View Post

alleywayzalwayz,

To me truth is subjective, not objective - it is subject to personal interpretation. I read that thread and you like to use a big stick in your "debates". Like many religious types that I have had discussions with, you assume that another's beliefs that you don't agree with are attacks on your personal beliefs. You think there are universal truths that are indisputable and when someone does not accept them as truth, you seem to feel a need to browbeat them into seeing your way. I don't call that debate, I call it a slug fest.

I take things as dynamic rather than static. I don't mind discussions because I can always learn something from another's perspective. I find religious debates never go anywhere and usually end in dead lock.

Cliffy
Quote:

To me truth is subjective, not objective - it is subject to personal interpretation.

Truth is what is ,truth is the actual ,truth is absolute my friend and the Truth is choice less .
 
Cliffy
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by china View Post

Cliffy


Truth is what is ,truth is the actual ,truth is absolute my friend and the Truth is choice less .

What is is truth! There are no absolutes. Just look at science. There have been many scientific laws that have been replaced because they no longer hold true or are no longer relevant.

Our material reality is actually a computer construct based on a belief system that only takes a limited amount of data into consideration. I hold that to be true. I can scientifically prove it but few would accept that because they are afraid that if I am right, they might disappear, vaporize or otherwise cease to exist. But I am still here banging on this keyboard.
 
In Between Man
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy View Post

What is is truth! There are no absolutes.

Here's the problem with your logic my friend: Statements are affirmations, and statements like 'truth is relative' tries to affirm that the ONLY ABSOLUTE TRUTH WE CAN TRUST *IS* -- THERE ARE NO ABSOLUTE TRUTHS!!!

It's wrong, its flawed, and it is SELF DEFEATING.

Its like saying to someone: "I don't speak a word of English."

See what I mean?

Don't tell me I' crazy! ... Cuz I know I'm not!......
 
In Between Man
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by china View Post

Cliffy


Truth is what is ,truth is the actual ,truth is absolute my friend and the Truth is choice less .


Bang on China! I'm proud of you!!!
 
Cliffy
#19
Posted this on another thread but it should have been here. basically, quantum physics and mechanics comes to the conclusion that our individuality and reality are myths. All we thought we know is a lie based on faulty data - our personal WMDs. Maybe when we get unstuck from this material construct we call reality, them possibly we come to know a truth that is absolute, but until then we know Jack!
The flick is worth watching. It's short.

Quoting Cannuck Dailymotion - The Reality As You Know It Does Not Exist, a video from DiscloseTV. Alan, Conciousness, DiscloseTV, Do, Russell

That is what I have said all along - reality/truth/life is subjective, that it is basically a computer construct based on a belief system - a Matrix. This is a dream, as the Buddhists say, but what a dream! We are nothing more than conscious energy communicating with what appears to be mechanical devices called computers when in reality, if we changed our belief system, we would not need these contraptions to communicate.

Life as we know it, only seems three dimensional, materialistic and solid. But like the man said, if you could squeeze the universe until all that was left was the actual matter, you would have a lump the size of a pea. 99 point 9(to the power of several trillion) percent of what we call reality is empty space. So what else can this thing we call reality be but a hologram based on the programming of our minds.

As a form of consciousness, humanity embarked on an experiment millions of years ago (in our illusion of time) to play with third dimensional reality but we forgot it was just a game we were playing and became stuck in this reality we created. We are now coming close to realizing it is just a game and will soon move on to a different experiment, one hopefully a little more sensible.
 
Cliffy
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by alleywayzalwayz View Post


Don't tell me I' crazy! ... Cuz I know I'm not!......

Actually, everybody is crazy. You are no exception.
 
SirJosephPorter
#21
The truth is the truth.

Cannuck, well, yes and no. What many people do is they confuse scientific truth with philosophical, religious truth. In the case of science, truth is truth, it is objective, it does not depend upon the observer (until you get into the deep, obscure scientific phenomena, such as relativity or quantum mechanics).

Thus when we say that sun rises in the East, or if you drop something from a window it will fall to the ground, it is objective truth, and anybody who denies it will do so at his own peril (e.g. if by denying the truth he walks off a window ledge, he will get hurt, nobody else). If somebody denies the scientific, objective truths, he will pay for it.

Philosophical truths on the other hand, are purely subjective; depend upon the observer, upon the person, upon the circumstances etc. Thus, is there a God? And if there is, which is the true God? Is there an afterlife? We don’t know, there cannot be an objective truth in these matters.

The problem with a religious fundamentalist (of both Muslim and Christian variety) is that he regards religious truth the same way he regards scientific truth. Thus his interpretation of Bible, or Koran is the only true one, anybody who disagrees with him is an infidel, a disciple of Devil and deserves to die.

But we have to be careful to differentiate between the scientific, objective truths and religious, philosophical truths.
 
darkbeaver
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy View Post

What is is truth! There are no absolutes. Just look at science. There have been many scientific laws that have been replaced because they no longer hold true or are no longer relevant.

Our material reality is actually a computer construct based on a belief system that only takes a limited amount of data into consideration. I hold that to be true. I can scientifically prove it but few would accept that because they are afraid that if I am right, they might disappear, vaporize or otherwise cease to exist. But I am still here banging on this keyboard.

Once our counciousness is partially detatched temporarily from the whole into the construct of individuality we are charged with only one directive and that is to selfrealize through awareness that same initiating whole (the one. In Castenedas books somewhere I saw written the purpose of life which was described as worship of that oneness through awareness. The purpose of sentient beings is described as the method of the whole for selfappreciation and that is our ultimate purpose to worship the whole through continual rediscovery. In other words the whole cannot experiance itself except through the false objectivity temporarily manifested in it's sentient creations, we are it's mirrors.
 
Cliffy
#23
The only thing I would ad to that, SirJoseph, is that the objective truth of science is relative to our concept of third dimensional reality. Beyond that it has no relevance. More and more we are finding that the rules of quantum mechanics and relativity are relevant to all of the universe and I see a day in the not too distant future when we will understand life/truth/reality completely different than we do now.

For many years I was involved in shamanism with our aboriginal people. I experienced phenomenon that were outside our "normal" perception. I was curious as to why a culture that is different from ours could experience reality in such a dramatically different way than we normally do. The deeper I investigated the more it became clear to me that it had more to do with their belief system - they believed it was possible, it was part of there reality, we don't believe it is part of our reality because we are so objective.

In quantum theory, the energy comprising what we call matter is influenced by the belief and will of the observing consciousness. Thus a scientific experiment that once was held to be law because it always produced the same results, now could be changed by the belief and will of the new experimenter. The shaman uses the same principles to alter reality, influence events and heal the sick. Although they may not understand quantum theory, they have been using it for thousands of years to do the work they do.

It is what the mythical stories of Jesus walking on water, raising the dead and healing the blind was trying to tell us - that we can do those things and more. He supposedly said that if we thought what he was doing was miraculous, a day would come when we would accomplish far more than what he was able to do. I believe we are on the doorstep of that realization.
 
Cliffy
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaver View Post

Once our counciousness is partially detatched temporarily from the whole into the construct of individuality we are charged with only one directive and that is to selfrealize through awareness that same initiating whole (the one. In Castenedas books somewhere I saw written the purpose of life which was described as worship of that oneness through awareness. The purpose of sentient beings is described as the method of the whole for selfappreciation and that is our ultimate purpose to worship the whole through continual rediscovery. In other words the whole cannot experiance itself except through the false objectivity temporarily manifested in it's sentient creations, we are it's mirrors.

Yes, as it were, the Universe experiences life through the sensory data of its creation. The Universe, as a whole, is a conscious entity and all that is within it is various aspects of itself experiencing what it is. Everything down to the smallest experiences what it is and the Universe is the sum total of all those experiences, just as our consciousness is the sum total of all our various parts. But, the consciousness of the Universe is much more than the sum total, and so are we.
 
darkbeaver
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy View Post

The only thing I would ad to that, SirJoseph, is that the objective truth of science is relative to our concept of third dimensional reality. Beyond that it has no relevance. More and more we are finding that the rules of quantum mechanics and relativity are relevant to all of the universe and I see a day in the not too distant future when we will understand life/truth/reality completely different than we do now.

For many years I was involved in shamanism with our aboriginal people. I experienced phenomenon that were outside our "normal" perception. I was curious as to why a culture that is different from ours could experience reality in such a dramatically different way than we normally do. The deeper I investigated the more it became clear to me that it had more to do with their belief system - they believed it was possible, it was part of there reality, we don't believe it is part of our reality because we are so objective.

In quantum theory, the energy comprising what we call matter is influenced by the belief and will of the observing consciousness. Thus a scientific experiment that once was held to be law because it always produced the same results, now could be changed by the belief and will of the new experimenter. The shaman uses the same principles to alter reality, influence events and heal the sick. Although they may not understand quantum theory, they have been using it for thousands of years to do the work they do.

It is what the mythical stories of Jesus walking on water, raising the dead and healing the blind was trying to tell us - that we can do those things and more. He supposedly said that if we thought what he was doing was miraculous, a day would come when we would accomplish far more than what he was able to do. I believe we are on the doorstep of that realization.

The anthropological studies require suspension of preconcieved ideas about what is real and not. While reading about the Mayans one time the author whomever it was stressed that many practices and beliefs must be appreciated as if they were alien because in fact they are totally alien to classic western thinking.
 
Spade
#26
In Defence of Cliff

Several posters have gratuitously slagged Cliff's assertion that there is no objective truth, even, I must say, one whose title would under some circumstances indicate higher social status. I will comment on social constructs later.

Let's begin...

Someone (unnamed out of politeness) asserted 2 + 2 = 4 is truth. Well, it's rather a model. You see the mathematical symbol 2 does not represent a truth external to the individual, but rather it is a representation (quite arbitrary, as some older posters here probably learnt ii) of an equivalence class. Twoness is a generalization of mental images of two apples, two cliffs, two robins, two petites pointes, and so on! But, because 2 is a symbolic representation of an equivalence class itself dependent on the "human" mind (I used quotation marks because I cannot comment on a bee's construction of "number") we cannot say 2 is independent of the "observer." I will, out of deference to those whose eyes are beginning to glaze, not continue further to argue on the subjectivity of 2 + 2 = 4. It is subjective at best, a mathematical "fact" of an constructed "internal" reality.

Another poster, nobly trumpeted that the sun rises in the east. Well! It only rises "in the east" at my latitudes but twice - on the equinoxes (except that isn't even "true" because of refraction). Every other day it rises north of east or south of east. But these generalizations (Please see twoness in the previous paragraph) are mental constructs. I dare say if you said "East" to a Russian who spoke no English he'd look at you in bewilderment! I will not get into a linguistic discussion of whether "East" and "Vostok" are exactly the same. Humpff!

The same poster maintains that in "truth" an object "falls" when one "drops" it. Here, I used quotation marks to confirm to those whose "minds" see the comedy of this "fact," that their amusement is well grounded. Let me illustrate for the "Sirs" who did not grasp this immediately by means of a "mental" experiment.

I am outside. It is snowing. My neighbour Henry's car is stuck in a drift. I go over to the rear of his vehicle. I yell at Henry that I will push. We begin and the neighbourhood fills with the sounds of curses and spinning tires. Henry's wife opens the screen door and shouts, "What the **** is Spade doing?" Henry shouts back, "He's pushing!" Is that truth, or is Henry simply repeating the word "push" from my earlier spoken offer to help? So you see that similarly the word "drops" is a mental image similar to "falls." Constructs not independent of the gentle reader. To beat this to death, "drops" suggests "falls." To say "a dropped object falls" is like saying "a red ball is red." Simply verbal nonsense!

I could go on, but my wife says lunch is ready. Hmmm, I wonder if that is true?
 
Spade
#27
PS to Cliff!
Thanks for telling the rumball of Candotcalm to go suck himself.
 
Cannuck
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by SirJosephPorter View Post

The truth is the truth.

In the case of science, truth is truth, it is objective, it does not depend upon the observer (until you get into the deep, obscure scientific phenomena, such as relativity or quantum mechanics).

And that is the point. Once you get into the deep, obscure scientific phenomena, such as relativity or quantum mechanics, what science believed was "truth" may not be. That is one of the reasons I get a laugh out of those (on both sides of the debate) that wish to or need to separate religion and science.

Jesus was reported to have walked on water. Scientifically speaking (quantum physics), it may have been possible. Not being able to walk on water is only objective truth because our current understanding suggest it is objective truth.

I think you believe that what you are observing is the truth. I don't necessarily agree.
 
Spade
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by Cannuck View Post

Jesus was reported to have walked on water.

I think you believe that what you are observing is the truth. I don't necessarily agree.

You're right, Cannuck. There is an underlying truth - metaphor - in myths such as walking on water. Of course, it must have been hard water.
 
Cannuck
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by Spade View Post

...it must have been hard water.

Or, the experience projected by Jesus and those around him was that of him walking on water. That is what quantum mechanics is now suggesting may be a possibility.
 

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