A primitive religion

Walter
#1
MARGARET WENTE
From Tuesday's Globe and Mail
July 29, 2008 at 10:41 AM EDT

Should cartoonists get danger pay? Maybe it's time. Canada's own Barry Blitt has gone to ground after his infamous, satirical New Yorker cover depicting the Obamas as gun-toting Islamic militants. Obama fans hated it. Other cartoonists hated it. But Muslim groups hated it even more. The Council on American-Islamic Relations declared it "inflammatory." A commentator for the Egyptian newspaper Al-Ahram called it "racist" and Islamophobic.
Fortunately Mr. Blitt works in the United States, where the worst they can do is denounce you. Here in Canada, they can take you to a human rights commission. That's what happened in April when Halifax's Chronicle-Herald ran a political cartoon by Bruce MacKinnon. It shows a burka-clad figure identified as Cheryfa MacAulay Jamal, a woman who demanded a large amount of compensation after her husband was arrested in an anti-terrorism raid and later released. She holds a sign that says, "I want millions," and her speech bubble says, " I can put it towards my husband's next training camp." Outraged, a local Muslim group complained to the human rights commission, and, for good measure, called the police.
"Cartooning itself has become a bit of a dangerous area," says Dan Leger, the paper's news director. He invited the group in for a meeting and explained that a cartoonist's job is to make fun of everybody. The meeting ended on a friendly note, and with luck that will be the end of it. "Cartoons are meant to piss you off," says Mr. Leger. "Otherwise they're no good."
But it's Europe where cartooning and Islam really don't mix. In the Netherlands, eight police officers showed up recently to arrest an obscure cartoonist for sketching offensive drawings of Muslims that appeared mainly on his own website. He spent two nights in jail, and Dutch authorities are deciding whether to charge him with inciting racist hatred.
The young cartoonist, who goes by the pen name Gregorius Nekschot, admits that his cartoons are "tasteless." Even so, he says, quoting a Monty Python sketch, "I never expected the Spanish Inquisition." Dutch champions of free speech are up in arms, and even some Muslim groups are dismayed that the government seems to have gone overboard to placate its growing Muslim minority. Meantime, Mr. Nekschot is rightly concerned about his safety. "Ever since [filmmaker] Theo van Gogh got slaughtered there's this sense of fear," he says.
"Most of the professional humorists in Europe apply self-censorship now," says one commentator. You can hardly blame them. They have not only violent extremists to fear, but also - in the Netherlands, at least - their own government.
Three years after the Danish cartoon controversy, it's more evident than ever that satire and Islam are an explosive mix. In the West, blasphemy has a long and robust history. But in the Muslim world it's regarded as intolerable. As one Pakistani diplomat put it recently, "There are certain things that should not be said."
In fact, if the Muslim nations were to have their way, any criticism of Islam would be forbidden. The Organization of the Islamic Conference, a group of 57 Muslim nations, has declared that Islamophobia is a menace and that any such defamation of religion should be criminalized and prosecuted vigorously. The OIC, which has growing clout at the United Nations, wants the UN to enact international "anti-defamation" rules that would forbid blasphemy. Islamic members of the UN's Human Rights Council have succeeded in changing the mandate of the UN's special rapporteur on freedom of expression. In addition to investigating cases of censorship and violations of free speech, this person will now "report on instances where the abuse of the right of freedom of expression constitutes an act of racial or religious discrimination."
Cartoonists, beware. Feel free to offend anyone you want - so long as they're not Muslims.
 
karrie
#2
What's primitive about being easy to offend?

It seems to me that being primitive, you'd be LESS sensitive about stupidity like that.

Noting in the article hints toward anyone having taken any 'primitive' measures in dealing with their sensitivities. They've used the CHRC, the police, and the media.

Slapping that word into the title seems highly out of place.
 
lone wolf
#3
Seems to me that overly sensitive points to a lot of insecurity. That's not primitive ... it's just sad.
 
Colpy
#4
Unfortunately, it is sad.....and dangerous, when the fringes are willing to resort to guns, knives and bombs, while political commentators censor themselves, and the idiots among us support the suppression of free speech in a futile attempt to appease the monster........
 
Zzarchov
#5
The only sad thing is the inequality of it.

Its making fun of only one religion thats bad.
 
Praxius
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by Walter View Post

MARGARET WENTE
From Tuesday's Globe and Mail
July 29, 2008 at 10:41 AM EDT

Should cartoonists get danger pay? Maybe it's time. Canada's own Barry Blitt has gone to ground after his infamous, satirical New Yorker cover depicting the Obamas as gun-toting Islamic militants. Obama fans hated it. Other cartoonists hated it. But Muslim groups hated it even more. The Council on American-Islamic Relations declared it "inflammatory." A commentator for the Egyptian newspaper Al-Ahram called it "racist" and Islamophobic.
Fortunately Mr. Blitt works in the United States, where the worst they can do is denounce you. Here in Canada, they can take you to a human rights commission. That's what happened in April when Halifax's Chronicle-Herald ran a political cartoon by Bruce MacKinnon. It shows a burka-clad figure identified as Cheryfa MacAulay Jamal, a woman who demanded a large amount of compensation after her husband was arrested in an anti-terrorism raid and later released. She holds a sign that says, "I want millions," and her speech bubble says, " I can put it towards my husband's next training camp." Outraged, a local Muslim group complained to the human rights commission, and, for good measure, called the police.

Well common sense will tell you that if you make fun of someone or their belief through ignorance, you're going to anger someone..... esspecially when you have your ignorance spread through the public by means such as a newspaper.... which I always thought was supposed to give unbiased news and information, not hate speech.

Quote:

"Cartooning itself has become a bit of a dangerous area," says Dan Leger, the paper's news director.

Cartooning only became dangerous, because people are now trying to cross lines they never would have in the past, just for the sake of getting noticed, regardless of the outcome of their actions. They do it to themselves.

How come we don't see as many cartoons making fun of Jews or Homosexuals with sterio-typical and biggoted imagry? Because people know they'd get their asses sued, that's why.

But since it's Muslims and Islam being made fun of.... it's ok.

Quote:

He invited the group in for a meeting and explained that a cartoonist's job is to make fun of everybody.

That doesn't mean respect and taste has to be thrown out the window at the same time..... I'm a cartoonist, animator, etc.... heck.... everybody knows I'm a jerk... but I don't go and try and depict a group of people with ignorant statements with no foundation in a commonly trusted news source. When it comes to other religions and their basic beliefs, and when it comes to minority cultures, there is a way one can make fun of them, without having to completely degrade them into brainless animals.... that just shows a lack of talent and a bully mentality, which I can only assume is due to being continually picked on and bullied in their school years, and now they feel they have some justification to give some payback now that they're in a better position for their voice to be heard.

Quote:

The meeting ended on a friendly note, and with luck that will be the end of it. "Cartoons are meant to piss you off," says Mr. Leger. "Otherwise they're no good."

What kind of an idiot comment is that? Cartoons are Cartoons.... they're for entertainment purposes, and maybe to make you think.... not to "Piss people off." ~ That's what music videos are for.

Quote:

But it's Europe where cartooning and Islam really don't mix. In the Netherlands, eight police officers showed up recently to arrest an obscure cartoonist for sketching offensive drawings of Muslims that appeared mainly on his own website. He spent two nights in jail, and Dutch authorities are deciding whether to charge him with inciting racist hatred.

Which it is.

Quote:

The young cartoonist, who goes by the pen name Gregorius Nekschot, admits that his cartoons are "tasteless." Even so, he says, quoting a Monty Python sketch, "I never expected the Spanish Inquisition."

Gee, you make tasteless hate media against a paticular group of people, and you don't expect to have legal action taken against you?

Here's a quote from my grade 11 law class that any moron can understand: "Ignorance is not an excuse from the law."

Quote:

Dutch champions of free speech are up in arms, and even some Muslim groups are dismayed that the government seems to have gone overboard to placate its growing Muslim minority.

It doesn't matter if it's a minority or a majority population.... hate crimes are still hate crimes.... be that against 1 person, 20 people, or a million.

Quote:

Meantime, Mr. Nekschot is rightly concerned about his safety. "Ever since [filmmaker] Theo van Gogh got slaughtered there's this sense of fear," he says.
"Most of the professional humorists in Europe apply self-censorship now," says one commentator. You can hardly blame them. They have not only violent extremists to fear, but also - in the Netherlands, at least - their own government.

You have regulators for tv shows and movies who will determine what you can and can not put in your shows (ie: FCC) what can be said, what can't be.... and are labeled with certain age notifications for what is appropreate and also determine at what time of day they can be shown..... why should newspapers and magazines be excluded from this practice?

Quote:

Three years after the Danish cartoon controversy, it's more evident than ever that satire and Islam are an explosive mix. In the West, blasphemy has a long and robust history. But in the Muslim world it's regarded as intolerable. As one Pakistani diplomat put it recently, "There are certain things that should not be said."

Well not too long ago, if you question the Bible or the Church, you could have been burned at the stake for herracy..... just imagine what would have happened a few generations ago if you made cartoons or something else that made fun of the Bible or the Church.

Oh, but apparently Islam shouldn't react in similar fashion?

Quote:

In fact, if the Muslim nations were to have their way, any criticism of Islam would be forbidden.

Once again, see Christian history on this matter.

Quote:

The Organization of the Islamic Conference, a group of 57 Muslim nations, has declared that Islamophobia is a menace and that any such defamation of religion should be criminalized and prosecuted vigorously.

And didn't the Pope also agree to this not too long ago?

Quote:

The OIC, which has growing clout at the United Nations, wants the UN to enact international "anti-defamation" rules that would forbid blasphemy. Islamic members of the UN's Human Rights Council have succeeded in changing the mandate of the UN's special rapporteur on freedom of expression. In addition to investigating cases of censorship and violations of free speech, this person will now "report on instances where the abuse of the right of freedom of expression constitutes an act of racial or religious discrimination."
Cartoonists, beware. Feel free to offend anyone you want - so long as they're not Muslims.

Fk'n ignorant.... they were fighting for all religions being discriminated.... oh but since it was Muslims trying to make this happen, it's all about them? Let's forget the point that they were talking about religions in general, not just exclusivly their own.

And using cartoons for the propaganda machine on freedom of speech? Lame....

Once again, from someone who's been making cartoons since the age of 4, the moment the world starts to hold up cartoons to protect our freedoms and way of life over all other avenues of protecting our rights..... shove a knitting needle up my right nostril please.... and twist.

Cartoons are to make people laugh and to be entertained.... Not to "Piss people off" as this foolish and biased article likes to potray. If that was the case, then I imagine we'd have a plauge of pissed off children in the world...... and Sponge Bob Square Pants would be an Axe Murderer.
 
Avro
#7
All religions are primitive.
 
Walter
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by Praxius View Post

How come we don't see as many cartoons making fun of Jews or Homosexuals with sterio-typical and biggoted imagry?





 
Praxius
#9
And have you seen anybody complain about those? I bet there were.

Of course the Jewish one wasn't all that offensive if you ask me...

See, if I wanted to push the limits, I'd make a cartoon of an Israeli Soldier in a Nazi SS uniform, cluster bombing civilians for target practice, and I'd have G. Bush beating and torturing children in seceret compounds with attack dogs biting at them.

But I won't, because it's offensive and I have a bit of taste left.

And besides, you would say, it's not all that funny when you picture it.... well neither was having their prophet with a bomb in their head, when it's a select few of their culture twisting their religion into an extremist position? It wasn't funny either, and it was just to "Piss people off" as they say.

Anybody see a pattern?

The pattern is that they knew very damn well what would happen when they published those images and those messages.... most artists with a brain will usually think about what will come from their creations, and at the right time and the right place, you can polarize a planet with the right work.

And that's all this was.... to get publicity and get paid more, no matter what would happen.

Make a whole racist article on Blacks in the States and make it as low, ignorant and as dirty as you can possibly think which would cause someone face to face with you to shoot you in your eye if you told it to their face and it related to them...... and then distribute that message to everybody in the community, and then into the internet around the world.........

..... guess how many pissed off Africans there are going to be and guess how many are going to have you marked for death, just like these chumps?

Sure, some moderatly talented person trying to stir crap up could make something to piss a few people off.... but most will try and ignore them and tell people that they're just losers and shouldn't get attention.... But take that up a notch and go beyond the limits of right and wrong, unleash your imagination and think of the worst thing you could possibly say or do to someone to hurt them for the rest of their lives directly...... make fun of a woman who just lost her new born baby in a drunk driving accident involving her husband.... or better yet, her own father.... make it just down right disrespectful..... go ahead.... send that to everybody and see what happens.

I double dog dare you. Just make something that you know will upset and offend the majority of the public you wish to see it, and see what happens. Think about what might happen, apply, and then see the conclusion and if your predictions came true.
Last edited by Praxius; Jul 29th, 2008 at 05:43 PM..
 
Zzarchov
#10
Praxius:

This one resulted in dead people:




This resulted in some unhappy letters that people ignored.

 
Risus
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by Colpy View Post

Unfortunately, it is sad.....and dangerous, when the fringes are willing to resort to guns, knives and bombs, while political commentators censor themselves, and the idiots among us support the suppression of free speech in a futile attempt to appease the monster........

LOL, I must say I agree with Colpy. It is sad indeed. The hell with the fringes, I say.
 
Avro
#12
.....and Christians look the other way while boys get raped by priests.....whats the difference?

All religions are based on fairy tales and are obsolete.
 
Risus
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by Avro View Post

.....and Christians look the other way while boys get raped by priests.....whats the difference?

All religions are based on fairy tales and are obsolete.

Don't lump all Christians in with the catholics... thats where the perverts were....
 
Avro
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by Risus View Post

Don't lump all Christians in with the catholics... thats where the perverts were....

Were?

Are.
 
Risus
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by Avro View Post

Were?

Are.

I stand corrected....
 
Scott Free
#16
"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."
Qur’an 9:5 "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
Qur’an 9:29

"O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust." Qur’an 5:51 "O ye who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye Allah, if ye have faith (indeed)."
Qur’an 5:57
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book [CHRISTIANS], until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
Qur’an 9:29
"Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures."
Qur’an 98:6

Alright, enough is enough, and wait one goddamn minute here!

What exactly is a moderate Muslim again? Just like a moderate Christian I suppose: one that doesn't really believe what their contemptible book actually say.

The Qur'an and the Bible are both hate literatures and should be treated as such IMO.
Last edited by Scott Free; Jul 30th, 2008 at 05:33 PM..
 
Risus
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by Scott Free View Post

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."
Qur’an 9:5 "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
Qur’an 9:29

"O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust." Qur’an 5:51 "O ye who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye Allah, if ye have faith (indeed)."
Qur’an 5:57
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book [CHRISTIANS], until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
Qur’an 9:29
"Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures."
Qur’an 98:6

Alright, enough is enough, and wait one goddamn minute here!

What exactly is a moderate Muslim again? Just like a moderate Christian I suppose: one that doesn't really believe what their contemptible book actually say.

The Qur'an and the Bible are both hate literatures and should be treated as such IMO.

Well you proved the Qur'an is hate literature, but I didn't see a quote from the Bible in your post...
 
Scott Free
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by Risus View Post

Well you proved the Qur'an is hate literature, but I didn't see a quote from the Bible in your post...

I assumed people knew those quotes.

There isn't much I can do to help someone who lives in a Christian society and doesn't examine the religion themselves.

Try reading God Is Not Great by Christopher Hitchens.

This is a good source too: Is the bible hate literature?
 
Just the Facts
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by Praxius View Post

Well not too long ago, if you question the Bible or the Church, you could have been burned at the stake for herracy..... just imagine what would have happened a few generations ago if you made cartoons or something else that made fun of the Bible or the Church.

Once again, see Christian history on this matter.

So if you were diagnosed with a bad case of the flu, you'd be happy with your doctor prescribing a good blood-letting for you?

This is the 21st century. We're supposed to be progressing, not excusing ourselves by invoking centuries old ignorance.
 
karrie
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by Scott Free View Post

I assumed people knew those quotes.

There isn't much I can do to help someone who lives in a Christian society and doesn't examine the religion themselves.

Try reading God Is Not Great by Christopher Hitchens.

This is a good source too: Is the bible hate literature?

What's the book of a Christian Scott? What Christian religion do you know that follows the Old Testament?
 
lone wolf
#21
Whereas I'm not a religious person, I can see the point to it. I acknowledge a higher power. Without something to keep folks humble, people tend to think they're much bigger than they really are. They're the sort who think they're better than anyone else and end up going postal because they can't have it all their way.
 
Risus
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by Scott Free View Post

I assumed people knew those quotes.

There isn't much I can do to help someone who lives in a Christian society and doesn't examine the religion themselves.

Try reading God Is Not Great by Christopher Hitchens.

This is a good source too: Is the bible hate literature?

Well you know what happens when you assume....

Your post became biased...
 
Scott Free
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by karrie View Post

What's the book of a Christian Scott? What Christian religion do you know that follows the Old Testament?

Every Christian I have ever met quotes the old testament and rants about the ten commandments. I'm sure they pick and choose what they use but Jesus still advocated the teachings of Mosses. Jesus was a Jewish rabbi after all.
 
Scott Free
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by Risus View Post

Well you know what happens when you assume....

Your post became biased...

I have no reason to worry about such things do I? What standard am I being held accountable to without my knowledge? It seems to me there are a great many biased posters around here. Why should I be expected to be any different?
 
L Gilbert
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolf View Post

Whereas I'm not a religious person, I can see the point to it. I acknowledge a higher power. Without something to keep folks humble, people tend to think they're much bigger than they really are. They're the sort who think they're better than anyone else and end up going postal because they can't have it all their way.

I guess I must acknowledge myself as my own higher power then, because I only have to catch myself doing something dense to keep myself humble. lol
 
L Gilbert
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by Risus View Post

Well you know what happens when you assume....

Your post became biased...

Ah, you learned not to assume from your post about Lone's guns that he has hanging on his wall? Good for you.

I am biased, too........ in my favor.
 

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