Faith and Religion

I think not
#1
Quote: Originally Posted by the caracal kid

level of optimism/pesimism easily stems from evaluation of a situation emplying previous experiences.

Not necessarily, although it can be. It is also a matter of personality, when a situation is grim, one can easily be optimistic.

Quote: Originally Posted by the caracal kid

hope is merely a coping mechanism where one focuses on the most desirable outcome.

Nice wording, faith is a coping mechanism that ensures something beyond the grave.

Quote: Originally Posted by the caracal kid

Do you accept grand claims without evidence?

We're back to the evidence bit, provide evidence to me that love exists.

Quote: Originally Posted by the caracal kid

Especially when said claims can be discredited with a study of history and the application of logic.

History as is science, in many cases are "best guess". What's your point?

Quote: Originally Posted by the caracal kid

Or do you accept flying pink invisible elephants because you were told they exist?

No, do you believe that coffee causes cancer simply because you were told so?
 
the caracal kid
#2
"faith is a coping mechanism that ensures something beyond the grave"

yes, back to the origins of the religions. A need to be able to explain things, and a need to explain existance beyond one's existance (something impossible given any explanation is coming from one's own perspective).

Yet, face death then it will not be a fear. Fear stems from the unknown. (don't go off on an NDE tangent on me or you will need yet another thread).

Best guesses. Much of these best guesses regarding the modern revealed religions are not guesses at all. The modern revealed religions are a crock at the descriptive level.

The point is that revealed religions require faith, but faith does not require a religion.

Enlightenment does not come from following. Look into exoteric vs esoteric if you are interested in this.
 
I think not
#3
Quote: Originally Posted by the caracal kid

"faith is a coping mechanism that ensures something beyond the grave"

yes, back to the origins of the religions. A need to be able to explain things, and a need to explain existance beyond one's existance (something impossible given any explanation is coming from one's own perspective).

Don't try and spin it, hope and faith both stem from belief with no evidence, yet you embrace one and decry the other. Why can't you answer a simple question?

Quote: Originally Posted by the caracal kid

Yet, face death then it will not be a fear. Fear stems from the unknown. (don't go off on an NDE tangent on me or you will need yet another thread).

I changed the thread because we were way off topic, faith does alot more than help you face fear of death.

Quote: Originally Posted by the caracal kid

Best guesses. Much of these best guesses regarding the modern revealed religions are not guesses at all. The modern western revealed religions are a crock at the descriptive level.

Science and history are in many cases best guess, if you don't adhere to this guideline, then you will constantly go around in circles.
 
the caracal kid
#4
what simple question?

i do not embrace or decry. I said anything trying to sell you a bill of goods on faith alone should be discarded.

How much simpler do you want it?

Science and history are probablistic. In the case of jesus, there far too much to suggest that the mythical jesus did not exist. (read, the jesus as described in the bible. the bible itself being a rats-nest of errors given it was written well after the fact).

fath and death: you tied the two together, i replied.
 
I think not
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by the caracal kid

what simple question?

i do not embrace or decry. I said anything trying to sell you a bill of goods on faith alone should be discarded.

How much simpler do you want it?

Ok then, so since their is no evidence that hope, optimism and even love exist, it would be pointless to believe they do. Agreed?

Quote: Originally Posted by the caracal kid

Science and history are probablistic. In the case of jesus, there far too much to suggest that the mythical jesus did not exist. (read, the jesus as described in the bible. the bible itself being a rats-nest of errors given it was written well after the fact).

Who said anything about the bible? We're talking about faith here, what makes you think I even have faith, and it is derived from the bible? I can easily have faith in rocks controlling the universe, everything is up for grabs with faith, like people having hope.

Quote: Originally Posted by the caracal kid

fath and death: you tied the two together, i replied.

Yeah, I tried to point out to you one of the principles of ones faith, a continuation of their existance. That's just one aspect.
 
Jay
#6
Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy - Benjamin Franklin
 
the caracal kid
#7
"Ok then, so since their is no evidence that hope, optimism and even love exist, it would be pointless to believe they do. Agreed? "

they are constructs used to allow one to explain aspects of one's world.
 
poligeek
#8
Faith asks you to accept that something is an absolute truth, without evidence.

Now strictly speaking I think that definition of "faith" is best applied to indoctrinated religions and religious insititutions rather than general spritualism of any particular religion.

In this sense the difference between believing in faith, is believing in something as an absolute with out any evidence...

and believing in "hope" is that hope does not ask for acceptance, nor an absolute. In fact in the case of hope often one does have to have some sort of evidence to maintain hope.

So Faith and Hope are the difference between an absolute and an abstract.
 
I think not
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by the caracal kid

"Ok then, so since their is no evidence that hope, optimism and even love exist, it would be pointless to believe they do. Agreed? "

they are constructs used to allow one to explain aspects of one's world.

And how does it differ from faith, since faith is an equal construct? There are no differences.
 
the caracal kid
#10
and back to where you jumped in on this:

i said anything being sold on faith alone should be discarded.
 
poligeek
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by I think not

Quote: Originally Posted by the caracal kid

"Ok then, so since their is no evidence that hope, optimism and even love exist, it would be pointless to believe they do. Agreed? "

they are constructs used to allow one to explain aspects of one's world.

And how does it differ from faith, since faith is an equal construct? There are no differences.

We could probably all agree that "faith" in an innocous connotation is as abstract as "hope" and "otimism" which are abstract and constructs used to let us explain how we intrepret and react to the world around us.

However, in context "faith" is rarely used in an innocous context and is usually used in a much more literalist or absolute connotation: i.e. Faith in The Lord Jeasus Christ as our Saviour... requies an absolute belief not only in the figure of Jesus Christ, but that "he" is a supernatual being who has dominion over our mortal lives, acceptance and absolute acceptance of human soul, acceptance that that sould continues after death into an accepted after life where this accepted figure of Jesus Christ hold domion over our fate together with the figures of The Father and the Holy Spirit.....

This is much less abstract or innocous than hope that my visa bill will be $0 next month no matter how improbable that hope may be.
 
the caracal kid
#12
indeed poli,

faith, as in the religious context is peddled as an absolute, where these other constructs are relative. In the comparison to science above as well, science is probablistic and not absolutist unlike its religious counterpart.
 
pastafarian
#13
I see a distinction between faith and hope.

Hope is one of two things: the only hedge against despair when things are desperate,or optimism based on likelyhood of a positive outcome.

Faith is different, IMO. Faith always is based on the likelyhood that the object of faith is real and dependable. Not knowledge, but belief that it is likely, based on one's experience.

I think the "born-again" experience is an expression of hope rather than faith, which is why so many desperate, unhappy people are drawn to ministries which stress the "instant conversion" high.

Faith is built up slowly, by embracing and confronting doubt, rather than by running from it. Faith requires an engaged mind, hope is often helped by a disengaged mind.

That's my view.
 
Alberta'sfinest
#14
I'd like to butt in here. I'd like to say that this argument is futile, since the english language is a barrier to the expression of any idea that isn't concrete or factual. You can imagine these things, but you can not explain them.

Love, is a poor attempt at trying to put words or meaning to part of our psychy. The feeling of love was created through evolution, and the interaction between humans that we "love", is actually quite necessary to our chemical balance within our brains. We'll actually kill ourselves without this mechanism. In other words were pack animals. Love is just a word to describe the feeling we get from the release of happy chemicals.
Faith and hope however, are part of comprehensive brainwashing to suppress people. Faith and hope are merely a way of making it okay to be apathetic.
What is faith? A belief of a higher power or system that will correct imbalances in the universe. The only thing that they don't tell you is that you are the tool of this higher power and it is us that is supposed to be fixing things. By teaching people faith, it frees their mind from being responsible for eachother and our planet, opening the door for all those who wish to commit crimes against society by enslaving peoples, and damaging our planet.

Hope, not to be confused with optimism, is merely a substitute for faith as people have started to move away from religious teachings. Hope is also a cop out for doing something yourself. The whole point of faith and hope is that no matter how much you have, nothing will ever materialize from it, which means that evil men have removed their obsticles. You were suckered. Religion is about removing your power, both mental and resource.

Don't believe me? Last year the Catholic Church collected more money than the Government of Canada, and that's a fact you can look up. To make a change in society, it requires two things. 1. A positive mental attitude that you can institute change, and 2. Money and resources to finance this change. If people actually followed Jesus' teachings about charity and good will, they'd realize that by going out into their communities and giving that money to the poor, and using their positive attitudes to spread positive attitudes, we'd actually have no problems in our country whatsoever. However, this would also destroy oppression and wrong doing towards us and get in the way of greed and power, which are the tools of Satan.
I guess it never occurred to anyone that humanity was given the tools to help and guide humanity. Quit waiting for god to do something, and realize that god has given us the power to do it ourselves, we can be gods will.

Here's a thought for anyone who can't see how we can institute the positive changes that we have faith or hope that they will happen. The average family donates about $100-200 a week to the church. Multiply that by 52 weeks, and that's roughly 5200-10400 per year. This is a lot of money to someone on welfare or living below the poverty line. Now lets say that 4 families adopt a less fortunate family and help to assist them in life. Between the four families, they'd be able to donate 20800-41200 dollars. Then, the families could each take turns spending time with the families on the weekend, give them support, and help them learn how to manage finances and overcome vices. In the end, you'd be able to give them a home, make sure they eat, are clothed, and their kids grow up and overcome the situation so that they can later team up with 3 families to do the same for someone else.

Now this is a plan that i'm sure Jesus would be proud of, and it would gaurentee you heaven moreso than church. How do I know this? I read the new testiment. On judgement day, Jesus explains that our souls will be judged on the basis of our works. Whether we clothed the naked, fed the starving, sheltered the homeless, and councilled the disillusioned. This shouldn't suprise most people, but the thing charities lack most is volunteers, and I see millions of them sitting on their asses donating their power for positive change every sunday. You can still go to church, and because their would be four families involved or more, you could alternate on who misses church each sunday to help the family. You can still donate to the church, but the church shouldn't be getting more than it needs to operate. Be a Christian, don't just claim you are. When you start to see Christ in yourself and your actions, you are a true Christian.
 

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