Education for Profit


ironsides
No Party Affiliation
#1
What is this education for profit that seems to be catching on in the U.S.. Can it even remotely be any good?



This was on the show Frontline last night 3/1/11. Very interesting.

FRONTLINE: college, inc. | PBS
 
captain morgan
Bloc Québécois
#2
For-profit isn't always such a bad thing particularly in the sense that the market forces efficiencies AND results. With this in mind, the for-profit schools will be competing directly with the public schools and unless those 'private' schools can deliver results that justify the capital outlay, they will quickly cease to exist.
 
Trotz
Bloc Québécois
#3
Pro-profit education can cover degrees and interest which are not covered in our proper real Universities. BCIT was one of those "for profit" schools; which gave degrees in technical skills, and nowadays it's one of the most important educational facilities in the province.



Unless we are supposed to be talking about a greater theme of some corporate-educational-complex which is purposely forcing people to study in bogus degrees (even my degree in the humanities doesn't mean much in the real world; other than discussing history at a pub) in order to squeeze money out of them.

Which is; I believe, a symptom and not a cause of people going to these schools in the first place. We no longer have those plentiful jobs as per the 1960s; in contrast, we are a society with massive unemployment and our governments are unwilling to do a thing about it - hence people go to the private sector for answers and often the answers come in the form of this educational complex.
Last edited by Trotz; Mar 2nd, 2011 at 09:57 AM..
 
earth_as_one
+1
#4  Top Rated Post
I like it about as much as I like toll highways...
 
darkbeaver
Republican
#5
Profit from education, of course! Profiting from educating ??????
 
captain morgan
Bloc Québécois
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaver View Post

Profit from education, of course! Profiting from educating ??????

Maybe we to look at this differently. Rather than consider the institution as profiting, perhaps it is the student and society that will profit. If more budding-students considered this perspective, you would see lees of a focus on the pretense of entitlement to an education and a greater focus on maximizing the individual value that was generated by the consumer (student) themselves.
 
EagleSmack
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_one View Post

I like it about as much as I like toll highways...

EAO... if you didn't have Highway Tolls... how would you pay the Toll Takers and their Bosses?
 
darkbeaver
Republican
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by captain morgan View Post

Maybe we to look at this differently. Rather than consider the institution as profiting, perhaps it is the student and society that will profit. If more budding-students considered this perspective, you would see lees of a focus on the pretense of entitlement to an education and a greater focus on maximizing the individual value that was generated by the consumer (student) themselves.

There's a lot of different ways to look at this and I don't think we've got vastly different perspectives. I agree fully that the student profits in the purest sense and that the teacher profits from exactly the same discovery and society profits as well, that's win win win.
Good education is an absolute necessity to truer democratic society and therefore it must be that societies priority responsibility. A student is not a consumer, he/she does not consume knowledge, he/she becomes intigrated with knowledge, a student is a student, a patient is a patient, a patient is not a client nor a consumer. I reject where ever possible the language of the monster people eating machine. If you can pass the exam proving you are interested in a subject society needs to understand, you get the seat, money shouldn't enter the picture. Society wants to invest in the human it dosn't want to gamble with slackers who bought a ticket just for the ride. Get the cash out of schools and universities or all we'll learn is how to make money. IMO
 
captain morgan
Bloc Québécois
#9
I don't disagree with you on your position. My perspective seeks to motivate the actual student into viewing their education as an investment in themselves that will yield long term, individual benefit, in that sense, the student is the ultimate consumer of an education. From that vantage, society as a whole benefits as well.
 
Trotz
Bloc Québécois
#10
People will claim that an undergraduate degree is useless but often it's a requirement for a graduate education in Law, Accounting, Medicine; et al.

Sure, you can ignore an education and instead earn a trade qualification and earn $45,000 before I am even in the workplace; but, the longterm differences amounts to you still earning $45,000 (and working in the snow) and me earning $80,000 and working in a heated and air-conditioned office... nevermind, most countries (i.e. Australia) will always take in an accountant, lawyer or doctor; but good luck moving abroad with a trade.
Other benefits like being able to expense meals on the clients' tab, corporation picking up the air fare and bringing you to other parts in the world; et al. No one expenses anything for a plumber / electrician.
Last edited by Trotz; Mar 2nd, 2011 at 02:01 PM..
 
TenPenny
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by Trotz View Post

Sure, you can ignore an education and instead earn a trade qualification and earn $45,000 before I am even in the workplace; but, the longterm differences amounts to you still earning $45,000 (and working in the snow) and me earning $80,000 and working in a heated and air-conditioned office... nevermind, most countries (i.e. Australia) will always take in an accountant, lawyer or doctor; but good luck moving abroad with a trade.

Many of the tradesmen that I know make 6 figure incomes.
And, quite honestly, people who work with their hands usually have more job satisfaction than paper shufflers.
 
Trotz
Bloc Québécois
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by TenPenny View Post

Many of the tradesmen that I know make 6 figure incomes.
And, quite honestly, people who work with their hands usually have more job satisfaction than paper shufflers.

Yes, there are extraordinary circumstances in which one can make six figures in just about any job. There was an article about some town in Massachusetts in which parking lot attendents were being paid $120,000 a year.

However, if it's money and benefits you want than you have a greater chance of accessing it in an office profession than in the trades. Though, you do mention job satisfaction as an important criteria. I like traveling and investigating and both things are common and expected and paid for in certain office professions.

I wouldn't have job statisfication as a tradesmen; but that's not true for others. I have worked in steel mills and with tradesmen and if I were a tradesmen I would quickly become annoyed with working with underclass immigrants and teenaged summer workers. Never said I wasn't an eltist; hence my attraction to elitist professions
Probably would make a good politician if Ignatieff is any example
Last edited by Trotz; Mar 2nd, 2011 at 02:58 PM..
 
ironsides
No Party Affiliation
#13
I watch the show and in most cases a for-profit education can work out to the benefit of a person who cannot for whatever reason (over crowded school, grades to low) get into a public or traditional university. The big drawback is that these schools, especially the online ones charge the same tuition as schools like Harvard $36,173 per year or Columbia $1,126 part time per credit hour or $33,828 full time. (go full time, much better deal)
 
darkbeaver
Republican
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by captain morgan View Post

I don't disagree with you on your position. My perspective seeks to motivate the actual student into viewing their education as an investment in themselves that will yield long term, individual benefit, in that sense, the student is the ultimate consumer of an education. From that vantage, society as a whole benefits as well.

I have no problem with your position except that nasty c word. I understand its utility but I'm just too old to get comfy with it. I refuse to be a consumer. I don't mind shopping though.

Quote: Originally Posted by TenPenny View Post

Many of the tradesmen that I know make 6 figure incomes.
And, quite honestly, people who work with their hands usually have more job satisfaction than paper shufflers.

I'm hopeful that we are entering the age of the trades. There is really no way out of our rotten economy without industry and production.
 
ironsides
No Party Affiliation
#15
Jobs are available out there, you may have to change professions or move. This was online today.

http://financiallyfit.yahoo.com/finance/article-112151-8660-4-best-companies-for-job-offers?ywaad=ad0035&nc
 
Bar Sinister
No Party Affiliation
#16
Education for profit is just what you would expect. A poorly funded system offering low quality education while the corporations that run the schools skim off the maximum amount of profits. A few years ago the managers of one for profit school system actually sold off the system's computers and other equipment in order to maximize profits. Ironically the system had actually promised extensive computer use as a means of replacing expensive teachers. With no computers and a high teacher-pupil ratio the entire plan fell apart.

There are good for profit schools, but they generally cannot complete with the public system on a cost per pupil basis. In fact there is no evidence whatsoever that any private system can complete with a public system on a cost per pupil basis. Cheap private schools equal poor quality eduction.
 
Trotz
Bloc Québécois
#17
We youth in the 90's were told that we should become plumbers and electricians but the ones who have since gotten those qualifications have found out now that there aren't as many jobs as they were claiming would exist.

It will be worse in a decade or two; true the boomers will be retiring and some jobs (but a good number would be closed) would be freed but if Japan is any indication; having a lot of old people who own most of the wealth in society and are not investing it into the economy is a recipe for negative economic growth
 
Cannuck
No Party Affiliation
+1
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by Trotz View Post

Sure, you can ignore an education and instead earn a trade qualification and earn $45,000 before I am even in the workplace; but, the longterm differences amounts to you still earning $45,000 (and working in the snow) and me earning $80,000 and working in a heated and air-conditioned office... nevermind, most countries (i.e. Australia) will always take in an accountant, lawyer or doctor; but good luck moving abroad with a trade.
Other benefits like being able to expense meals on the clients' tab, corporation picking up the air fare and bringing you to other parts in the world; et al. No one expenses anything for a plumber / electrician.

Holy crap!! You really have no idea about the real world. As a "trades person" I make over $80K, have my own office, have an expense account, company vehicle and have traveled extensively. I live two doors down from a lawyer and my house is newer and bigger.

You are not alone though. Your perception is part of the problem that the trades are facing now. Too many young people think like you and are walking by golden opportunities.
 
darkbeaver
Republican
#19
As a wealthy tradesman and land baron I agree entirely with Cannuck. You all outside of the trades owe your lives to us the greasy people with screwdrivers and blowtorches, none of you are qualified to fix your own refridgerators none of you have a clue about how a toilet works none of you can comprehend your lawn mowers, fan belts are completely over your head, light fixtures laugh at you. Now you begin to understand who really calls the shots in your lives. You owe me a $150.00 cash for the house call, I changed the fuse in your kitchen range, don't be late with the payment or you'll starve to death.
 
The Old Medic
Conservative
#20
Some "for profit" schools are quite good (e.g., University of Phoenix, some of the engineering schools like DeVry, etc.). Far too many are of dubious quality, prepare people for semi-skilled occupations at very high cost (such as nurses aides, etc.) and they prey on the ignorant and the poor.

Personally, I would not allow any Federally Guaranteed student loans to any such program, unless it can show that a minimum of 70% of it's graduates employed full time in the field they were trained in, at well above the minimum wage (at least 25% above). If a school can't demonstrate such success, then it is required to repay any defaulted student loans to the government.

I suspect that about 90% f them would close within a year!
 
Walter
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by ironsides View Post

What is this education for profit that seems to be catching on in the U.S.. Can it even remotely be any good?

Can't be any worse than publicly funded education happening in many parts of NA.
 
Bar Sinister
No Party Affiliation
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by Trotz View Post

We youth in the 90's were told that we should become plumbers and electricians but the ones who have since gotten those qualifications have found out now that there aren't as many jobs as they were claiming would exist.

It will be worse in a decade or two; true the boomers will be retiring and some jobs (but a good number would be closed) would be freed but if Japan is any indication; having a lot of old people who own most of the wealth in society and are not investing it into the economy is a recipe for negative economic growth

You have it partly right, T. However, when describing the United States, instead of using the phrase "a lot of old people;" try substituting "the wealthiest 10% of society" and you will have a better explanation of why the US is in decline.
 
ironsides
No Party Affiliation
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by Walter View Post

Can't be any worse than publicly funded education happening in many parts of NA.

It does add more schools, since public schools are over crowded, and looks like were not going to be building new ones anytime soon.

Quote: Originally Posted by Trotz View Post

We youth in the 90's were told that we should become plumbers and electricians but the ones who have since gotten those qualifications have found out now that there aren't as many jobs as they were claiming would exist.

It will be worse in a decade or two; true the boomers will be retiring and some jobs (but a good number would be closed) would be freed but if Japan is any indication; having a lot of old people who own most of the wealth in society and are not investing it into the economy is a recipe for negative economic growth

The old people as you call them may have a lot of money in wise investments they made over the years, but they are scared to invest in this volatile economy as it now is. What is there to invest in that will maintain their security thru retirement. Big business not any government must be able to insure confidence in themselves again. No government is going to be able to permanently pull us out of this predicament. This is not a Canadian or American thing it is a world economic problem.
 
Tonington
#24
I believe someone already mentioned something similar, but I think this type of model would work well for disciplines that currently aren't being offered. As an example, in Canada you can't get a degree specializing in real estate, or so some company has said. They contacted the University of Prince Edward Island, they wanted to partner with them to create a faculty devoted to real estate. The university declined. Then the company went to the legislature, and applied for a degree granting license. UPEI then made a big stink about the province not consulting them first.

In that case, I think the for-profit model would work well. But for things like BSc. in Biology and mainstream degrees like that, I think for-profit wouldn't work as well. It would be difficult to attract good talent, and keep costs low, especialy when public universities and colleges are partially subsidized already.
 

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