Muslims - Ability to integrate into Western Culture?

Muslims - Ability to integrate into Western Culture?

Islam / Multiple-Cultures living in these the West / Western Countries Constitutional Human Rights-Will Islam or the majority of Muslims integrate and accept that certain Rights are protected for one and all? - Tolerance for Western Values / Culture - That one Religious Belief will not be held higher than another or even the right to not have any Religious beliefs.

I am against any Fanatic- Religious or not -They are always a danger to all they come in contact with.

Do not try and take this as an attack on Muslims - It is and clearly states that Imams must categorically condemn attacks such as were planned by the TO 18 - By those that attacked the WTC. Interrogate their community and teach tolerance. And yes cooperate with the authorities if they suspect someone of preparing an attack.

Lastly - Start training Imams in North America and stop bringing in Fundamentalist Imams from Saudi Arabia who generally teach an extreme version of Islam.

Why is it that the Mosque in NY City now becomes a National Security issue - Because in the world we live in Islamic Fanatics and some that are not fanatics will cause retribution on Westerners, Churches etc. So do we cave in - No - I have stated all along that this was a poor place to build a Mosque - And we will always have Nutbars on the fringe that will do things that are to me rephehensible, such as burning a book, or a Religious Text.

This controversy can be laid at the feet of Right & Left Wing Politicians for inflaming an emotional situation for their own Political gain and the Imam himself for not knowing what the repercussions would be.

Just because you have the right - either to build the Mosque on that location or even to burn a Quran - It does not necessarily make it right or wise to do. Both cases demonstrate pure ignorance by those that have fed this fire and a complete lack of sensitivity and respect for others - and I do not know which one is worse in their ignorance and insensitivity - The NutBar Pastor or the Imam that did not realize what the repercussions would be - he is either stupid, lying or playing politics - PS - Playing politics goes with lying.

We saw the Islamic world reap retribution when the Danish Cartoons were published - But some of these cartoons were deliberately tampered with by radical and certain ones added - What happened - people were killed and churches burned.

We in the West have laws that protect religious Belief, the right to believe or not. We do not have laws that force a person to Not burn a Quran, Not to insult a Religious belief.

Why is it that the Muslim world expects Govts to stop this - Because they live under those Govts and 2 they have demonstrated little to no tolerance in their own countries for other Religions and others of minority Religions including their own co-religionist of Muslim Sects - some being classed as heretics. Look to Iran and their action as a clear example of this.

We in the West have many Freedoms and that is the main reason many Muslims and other emigrate to these countries - Freedom to practice your beliefs, freedom to educate and improve yourself, freedom to not be taken from your home and either murdered in the street or imprisoned for no other reason than being a minority in your own country

Yet in Canada we have had statements from Imams that condemn attacks on the West - Yet we see in the last case of arrests where the local population is told to Not To Cooperate with authorities. You are either with or against Suicide Attacks and that means taking actions to prevent it. Why do they not assist - Do they not realize what and how many Canadians will react with a mass terrorist killing in this country.

These self same Imams, the majority in Canada did not condemn the Murder of Benazir Bhutto - Why? Because she was against Fundamentalists - She was for a separation of Mosque and State in her beliefs - She was a danger to them. And she was a Women who did not know her place.

Dr Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri urges the US Government to stop 'Burn Quran Day' in a letter to President Obama - Minhaj-ul-Quran International

The proposed 'Burn the Quran Day' by a small Florida church has sparked outrage worldwide and hurt the feelings of 1.5 billion Muslims around the world. This disrespectful act will not just cause harm to the Muslim community around the world but it will create divisions, hatred and break the fragile relations between the Muslims and the west. Worldwide peacemaking efforts, culture of dialogue, process of cohesion and integration between different religion and communities will be affected badly.

A leading Muslim authority Dr Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri, who issued a historic 600-page Fatwa on Terrorism in March 2010 has strongly condemned this action and urges the US Government to intervene to stop the burning of Quran at any cost in a letter to President Barack Obama. He said that individuals or groups should never be allowed to play with the world peace.

In the letter Dr Tahir-ul-Qadri wrote that "If this event is allowed to take place it will not be less than ‘9/11’ in the sense of its consequences and after-effects."

He also wrote that "Such an action should be stopped by the Government of the United States at any cost; allowing it does not fall within the scope of freedom of expression and it is also against the concept of basic human rights."

He pointed out that “Denial of the Holocaust is regarded as a crime in many countries and there is an agreement between many nations that such a ban is not against freedom of speech and freedom of expression because it infringes the sentiments of a religious community.”

Some Points

The Iman,Dr Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri, compares the burning of the Quran to the mass murder of 911 - There is no comparison - 1 is a book the other is mass murder, more than 3000 people were murdered

He also compares the Holocaust denial to the burning of the Quran - That again does not equate - 1 is a book the other was the systematic, well planned genocide on a scale never before seen in the world by a civilized country.

He clearly is reaching and belives as many Muslim do that the Quran should be protected from any and all that would desecrate it.

For a learned man, he still cannot equate the protections under law and the Separation of Church & Sate - His logic and understanding of Basic Right in the Western World is deeply flawed.

Now does he understand the difference or is he inciting the Moslem population world wide with these invalid comparisons

Many Muslim friends of mine and some that were not had great difficulty accepting the separation of Church & State - That what protects you to practice your faith in the way you wish also protects others even though they do things that you find reprehensible. That is one price of Freedom. The right to be different without being harmed or killed.

Even Imams that condemn Suicide Bombings will not condemn Hamas or Hezbollah - So how are they credible in their statements. To me they are not - Even the Imam in the Mosque dispute in NY City will not condemn the terror Groups - Why - because that will alienate many Muslims that support these groups - even moderates.

We in Canada have seen how the Toronto 18, a local Imam stated they were only boys and no trouble. It was all blown out of proportion

Mr. Alli says Islamic leaders are constantly concerned about the threat of radicalization, and work to engage youths “in a constructive way.” But Scarborough imam Aly Hindy — who still believes too many people were rounded up the Toronto 18 case, and most meant no harm to Canadians — derides the “so-called war against terrorism,” suggesting the threat is largely exaggerated.

“We don’t have this feeling of any danger. We feel very safe,” he said.

And a counter point - This is within the Muslim Community and they must be the ones to address it as well as the Police - They also should come out and state unequivocally they are against Jihadist and cooperate with the Authorities.

The Muslim Canadian Congress expressed “shock” at the developments, but also commended RCMP for the operation.

“Thank God these men were stopped before they could carry out their alleged plot,” said vice-president Salma Siddiqui.

The organization warned, however, that until Canada’s Muslim leadership unequivocally denounces the doctrine of armed jihad, Wednesday's terrorism arrests will not be the last. Radical figures are becoming “heroes,” Ms. Siddiqui said, and leaders in the Muslim community have a duty to diminish them.

“It’s more of an anger and a frustration,” she said of her reaction to Wednesday's arrests, “because it shouldn’t happen. This has got to stop.”

If and or when an attack occurs in Canada the average Canadian will be looking hard at the leaders of the Islamic Community - Many Canadian have little to no understanding of how closely knit these communities are and how being thrown out from a Mosque by Radicals and the threats to their families are an active and common practice to silence Moderates within the community.

If you criticize Islam, it is becoming more and more apparent that you are then labelled an Islamophobic, Racist and other such terms.

The Imam building the Mosque in NY City stated he did not expect and such outrage - He is either stupid, which is not the case or he was more than well aware of what the repercussions would be.

Perhaps he thought that this could be a way to bring to differing cultures together - If that was behind the thinking then many other ways could have been utilized.

Anyone who has read and followed news reports are sickened by the internecine killing of minority sects within various Muslim Countries - From Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, India - To other countries that penalize member of minority sects ranging form denial of Govt services to trumped up charges and that is followed by long prison terms or execution - The long prison terms & executions are quite common & regular by the Iranian Govt towards minority sect and those they consider Apostates or Heretics.

The UN Human Right Commission passed a Non Binding Resolution

Point - Why are we in the West Democracies required to give up the Right to Free Speech & possibly other rights when the majority of Muslim Countries do not even reach the lowest levels of Human Rights as Declared by the UN

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Issue 187 - UN Watch

UN Watch obtained a copy of the Pakistani-authored proposal after it was distributed today among Geneva diplomats attending the current session of the UN Human Rights Council. Entitled "Combating defamation of religions," it mentions only Islam.

While non-binding, the resolution constitutes a dangerous threat to free speech everywhere. It would ban any perceived offense to Islamic sensitivities as a "serious affront to human dignity" and a violation of religious freedom, and would pressure U.N. member states -- at the "local, national, regional and international levels" -- to erode free speech guarantees in their "legal and constitutional systems."

It's an Orwellian text that distorts the meaning of human rights, free speech, and religious freedom, and marks a giant step backwards for liberty and democracy worldwide.

Defamation of religions and the United Nations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The resolution received much criticism. French ambassador Jean-Baptiste Mattei, speaking on behalf of the European Union, argued that the "concept of defamation should not fall under the remit of human rights because it conflicted with the right to freedom of expression."[2] Eileen Donahoe, the US ambassador, also rejected the resolution. She said, "We cannot agree that prohibiting speech is the way to promote tolerance, because we continue to see the 'defamation of religions' concept used to justify censorship, criminalisation, and in some cases violent assaults and deaths of political, racial, and religious minorities around the world."[2]

The UNHRC passed the resolution on 25 March 2010 with 20 members voting in favour; 17 members voting against; 8 abstaining; and 2 absent.[44] ml

Suicide bombers in heaven? Imam Rauf won't say no

By Rabbi Shmuley Boteach

When you detonate explosives attached to your torso, simultaneously decapitating people on a bus or disemboweling little children at a kindergarten, do you go to heaven or to hell? Are you a martyr or a murderer? Heroic or heinous?

While the answer might seem straightforward to some, it clearly flummoxed Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, he of the Ground Zero mosque controversy, when it was asked of him by Barbara Walters in her 2006 TV special on heaven.

In response to the question as to whether suicide bombers go to heaven, Imam Rauf said, "One of the things that we are taught is never to say somebody will go to hell or somebody will go to heaven. It is up to God to decide."

Sheikh issues fatwa against all terrorists - Home News, UK - The Independent

Sheikh issues fatwa against all terrorists

Muslim leaders urged to denounce suicide bombers as hell-bound 'unbelievers'

By Jerome Taylor, Religious Affairs Correspondent

British imams must do more to condemn terrorism without any "ifs or buts" and should pronounce suicide bombers as "unbelievers" who are destined for hell, a leading Islamic scholar declared yesterday.

The comments were made during a remarkable assault on the ideology of violent Islamist extremists by Pakistani-born Sheikh Tahir ul-Qadri, a prominent theologian who launched a seminal fatwa in London yesterday condemning terrorism in all its forms.

The 59-year-old scholar, who has written more than 400 books on Islamic jurisprudence, told fellow Muslims: "Terrorism is terrorism, violence is violence and it has no place in Islamic teaching and no justification can be provided for it, or any kind of excuses of ifs and buts. The world needs an absolute, unconditional, unqualified and total condemnation of terrorism

Table of Terrorist Groups

Khaled Abu Toameh, a Muslim journalist, has written many articles about the inequities that Arabs and Muslims face within the Muslim world. Based on Toameh's investigations, let's pose the following to Rauf as he goes on his Muslim goodwill tour:

How come groups and individuals on university campuses in the United States and Canada who claim to be pro-Palestinian remain silent when Jordan revokes the citizenship of thousands of Palestinians?

Why do Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and other Arab countries impose severe travel restrictions on Palestinians?

How come there is a debate in Lebanon about whether to grant Palestinians employment, social security, and medical care?

How come Palestinians living in Lebanon are banned by law from working in a large number of jobs? In fact, until 2003, Lebanese law prohibited Palestinians from working in 72 professions. Now the list of prohibited jobs has been reduced to 50 professions.

Notwithstanding, how come Palestinians are still not allowed to work as physicians, journalists, pharmacists, or lawyers in Lebanon?

How come a wealthy Arab prefers to spend millions of dollars on a private zoo than build a hospital or a university?

How come it is easier for Palestinians to find a job in Israel and Canada than in any Arab or Islamic country?

Moreover, perhaps the imam might inquire why Arabs have not hesitated to murder Kurds, have obstructed Berbers from preserving their language and culture, and why, in Darfur, Arabs mass-murdered black Africans. All of those victims of Arab aggression and murder have been Muslims -- but in Islamic parlance, Muslims of an inferior level. Francis Bok, author of Escape From Slavery, was introduced to his subordinate status when at a tender age, he saw his African village destroyed, whereupon he became an abeed -- the term Arabs use to refer to black people, meaning "slave." In fact, "the three texts of Islamic belief say that slavery is permitted, ethical, desirable and a virtue. In fact, "there is not a single negative word about slavery." And what is written is put into practice in the 21st century.
Anyone can assimilate to become a Canadian. However the process slows down if the ethnic enclave grows too large as this delays the process of Canadianization. A quote from the article below states,

"According to other research, in 1981 Canada had only six ethnic enclaves, which
are defined as neighbourhoods where more than 30 per cent of the population is
of one visible-minority ethnicity. Now there are more than 260 such enclaves."

From 6 to 260 enclaves. That's a jump. Immigrants can live much more easily in their own ethnic world much easier now than thirty years ago. They can tune out Canada if they wish.

Canadians must take some blame for immigrants not assimilating. Those business types who just say, let them all in, they just work and buy houses, it is no problem. May have caused a problem they would wish to ignore. Let's hear what the business councils think of home grown terrorists.

To have high immigration levels since the late 1980s has consequences-over 250,000 per year. Traditionally Canada has taken about 100,000 immigrants per year or so, and most of these were from Europe. Too much of anything may be bad as the saying goes.

Growing ethnic enclaves hurt sense of Canadian 'belonging' - The Search

Growing ethnic enclaves hurt sense of Canadian 'belonging'

By Douglas Todd 11 Sep 2010 COMMENTS(16) The Search
Filed under: multiculturalism , ethnicity , Sikhs , Richmond , Chinese

The University of Victoria's Zheng Wu is leading an important study into one of the most profound challenges facing Canada, which has the highest per-capita immigration in the world.
How can waves of newcomers to Canada feel they belong here?
That question, explored by Wu and his sociological team, is particularly crucial to cities such as Vancouver and Toronto, where about two out of five residents are foreign born.
The disruption that comes with pulling up stakes and leaving one's country -whether China, India, the Philippines, Nigeria or Norway - can be shattering, even leading to depression.

Arriving in Canada, immigrants are often jolted to find weather, language, food, buildings, holidays, ethical norms and neighbours bear little resemblance to their homeland.

Where, some newcomers ask, can we find decent Malaysian or Armenian food?

Why is Halloween such a big deal here?

Why does my next-door-neighbour seem bothered my in-laws and grandparents live with us?

How come homosexuality is not illegal in Canada, as it is where I come from? What is the mania about ice hockey?

Instead of blending into mainstream Canadian culture, many immigrants try to deal with disorientation by moving in among "their own," to neighbourhoods that are ethnic enclaves.

In Metro Vancouver, early Italian immigrants strove to join fellow Italians in East Vancouver.

Many Chinese immigrants now flock to Richmond (photo of Aberdeen Mall in Richmond). East Indian Sikhs have been buying homes in central Surrey.
The statistical study by Wu and his University of Victoria sociology colleagues, Christoph Schimmele and Feng Hou, suggests many new immigrants feel "comforted" and "protected" by settling into ethnic neighbourhoods.

However, on the down side, Wu also discovered that first-generation immigrants who relocate to ethnic enclaves are more likely to report that they don't feel "a sense of belonging to Canada."

For new adult immigrants, "where they live really matters," Wu says.
"Ethnic enclaves and in-group exposure slows the pace of their integration."
Given the stark reality, the question of ethnic enclaves, sometimes referred to as self-imposed ghettos, is no small matter. According to other research, in 1981 Canada had only six ethnic enclaves, which are defined as neighbourhoods where more than 30 per cent of the population is of one visible-minority ethnicity.
Now there are more than 260 such enclaves.

How far do Canadians want this trend to go, particularly when the vast majority of immigrants avoid small-town Canada and flood into the nation's three largest cities.
Wu's study used 2001 Census data and Statistics Canada's 2002 Ethnic Diversity Survey, and included more than 21,000 participants living in thousands of neighbourhoods.

It measured social integration based on people's answers to two related but distinct questions, one being: "How strong is your sense of belonging to Canada?"
The second: "How often do you feel uncomfortable or out of place in Canada now because of your ethnicity, culture, race, skin colour, language, accent or religion?"
The University of Victoria researchers explored many issues, but the results related to ethnic enclaves were among the most intriguing, if not disturbing.

Many immigrants and their offspring experience a double bind in Canada, the study confirms.

Many end up feeling less "out of place" by grabbing apartments and houses among neighbours of the same ethnicity.

That makes it possible to hold onto the same language, share familiar foods, uphold inherited morality and follow the religious rhythms of their old country.
But, when immigrants alleviate their worry through ethnic enclaves, they're also less likely to feel loyalty to Canada.

That suggests they're less likely to feel healthy patriotism, send their children to diverse public schools, move beyond ethnic loyalty in the voting booth or find common ground with others, to protect the environment or supporting the United Way.

Even though Wu's team found the negative effects of ethnic enclaves receded after the first generation of immigrants, his research reinforces how self-chosen ghettos are an expanding phenomenon to be taken seriously.

It is understandable that immigrants seek reassurance in neighbourhoods filled with members of their own ethnicity.

Many of us are often nervous about interacting with The Other.
But, for the sake of building a country where citizens can have shared purpose, reaching out beyond our own ethnicity and traditions is becoming a necessity.
Bar Sinister
Part of the problem with Islam is the problem faced by any fundamentalist religious sect and that is it will clash strongly with the secular values of the West. By and large this appears to be a generational problem with second and third generation immigrants abandoning many of the values of their parents.

It is worth noting that Canada has long had this problem, especially in the case of visible minorities that have often faced strong discrimination. The Chinese, Japanese, and Black minorities have long exhibited this tendency where groups able to blend in more easily such as the Germans, Ukrainians, and Italians have tended to merge with mainstream culture more quickly. Given the fact that Canadian culture is much more diverse ethnically than it has ever been I suspect the enclaves described by DTM will tend to break down much more quickly than before provided they do not perceive any outside threat.
Quote: Originally Posted by Bar Sinister View Post

Part of the problem with Islam is the problem faced by any fundamentalist religious sect and that is it will clash strongly with the secular values of the West. By and large this appears to be a generational problem with second and third generation immigrants abandoning many of the values of their parents.

It is worth noting that Canada has long had this problem, especially in the case of visible minorities that have often faced strong discrimination. The Chinese, Japanese, and Black minorities have long exhibited this tendency where groups able to blend in more easily such as the Germans, Ukrainians, and Italians have tended to merge with mainstream culture more quickly. Given the fact that Canadian culture is much more diverse ethnically than it has ever been I suspect the enclaves described by DTM will tend to break down much more quickly than before provided they do not perceive any outside threat.

We'll likely integrate the recent newcomers, but it will take longer than many think. The numbers are quite large, the well paying unskilled jobs dropouts could get pre 1980 are gone, and their language skills are generally substandard as they are earning less than pre-1980s immigrants which were more European. Too much optimism might not be in order here. The makings of an underclass are present.

And for many people nowadays, integrating immigrants is not even necessary, these enclaves are fine, now part of the multicultural fabric of the country.

What kind of "outside threat" do you mean?