Should non-citizens be eligible for Canadian Forces recruitment?


View Poll Results: Should non-citizens be allowed to join the Canadian forces?
Yes. Whoever is most qualified for the job. 7 36.84%
Only thoe in whose countries we are operating. 1 5.26%
No. 11 57.89%
Other answer. 0 0%
Voters: 19. You may not vote on this poll

Machjo
#1
What do you think? To take an example, wouldn't Afghans be far more qualified to join the Canadian forces than any Canadian soldier? And seeing that we are fighting on their soil, not only qualified, but entitled to be given an equal chance at recruitment?
 
Tyr
Free Thinker
#2
Our Defence Forces are small enough to definitely need them, but.... No.

In "todays" world, I would be a 'tad leery of their loyalties and intentions.

If an Afghani "non-citizen" in our armed forces was asked to fire upon Afghani's in Afghanistan, I just don't know if that would be a 100% probability.
If I was a "citizen" in the armed forces in Afghanistan and the person who "had my six" was a "non-citizen" Afghani, I just would be that comfortable or confident

It would cause more problems than it would be worth
 
Machjo
#3
Quote: Originally Posted by Tyr View Post

Our Defence Forces are small enough to definitely need them, but.... No.

In "todays" world, I would be a 'tad leery of their loyalties and intentions.

So they're worthy of our protection, but not of our trust. Have you evr thought that maybe they're just returning our trust, that they are prepared to trust us as much as we trust them? If our soldiers are so standoffish against them, whereby we act as a wise Messiah coming to rescue them, but that they are unworthy of participating in their own rescue, is that not outright racist?

Quote: Originally Posted by Tyr View Post

If an Afghani "non-citizen" in our armed forces was asked to fire upon Afghani's in Afghanistan, I just don't know if that would be a 100% probability.
If I was a "citizen" in the armed forces in Afghanistan and the person who "had my six" was a "non-citizen" Afghani, I just would be that comfortable or confident

It would cause more problems than it would be worth

So if the Afghans are not prepared to fire upon other Afghans, then what right have we to do so? And if a soldier coldn't trust the person next to him because that person is an Afghan, then he won't trust the average man on the street either because he's an Afghan too. Does sending such zenophobic soliers to the battlefield really help things? If they really have that much distrust, don't you think th elocals pick up on it, how our soldiers look at them, stay clear of them, etc.?
 
Machjo
#4
If our army has a right to be in their country, then their people have a right to be in our army. If their people is unworthy of being treated as human beings equal to us, then why are we there?
 
Dexter Sinister
No Party Affiliation
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo View Post

If our army has a right to be in their country, then their people have a right to be in our army.

Yeah, I think that pretty much nails it. Good thought.
 
Francis2004
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo View Post

What do you think? To take an example, wouldn't Afghans be far more qualified to join the Canadian forces than any Canadian soldier? And seeing that we are fighting on their soil, not only qualified, but entitled to be given an equal chance at recruitment?

Machjo, why not ? As long as they meet the same conditions as Canadian soldiers.

After all if our Prime Minister does not need to be born in Canada, why should our military need to be as well.

Now I realize our Prime Minister must be Canadian to become PM but he need not be born Canadian. Hence an Afghanistan born Canadian Citizen Conservative/Liberal/NDP leader could become Canada's next PM..
 
Unforgiven
#7
Nope. If you want to fight for my country you better be apart of it, not just a guest.
 
Scott Free
Free Thinker
#8
The nation state is a slave colony, that is, a management system for chattel and a means of controlling those slaves thereby. Make people dependent on a nation and they will be patriotic. If someone wants to fight for that then be my guest. Canada is a big lump of sh!t in my estimation, conquered and stolen land, that claims me by no authority and inflicts laws on me through violence. I cannot own land here without it being subject to taxation and therefore I have to depend on the state, I cannot be independent - so it is not my country. I am being held against my will by hostile forces.

If some silly kid feels compelled to fight for that then my advice is don't, it isn't worth it, your masters mean you only harm.

If some kid in a foreign land wants to help our political elite conquer their lands then I must wonder what worth an army built from such treacherous stock could really have?

Yet since I am not an elite they do not fight for me - so I could care less. Join this army or that - conquer this land or that - I can't care who claims me since all masters are villains no matter how nice they might pretend to be or how much respect for me they might claim to have.
Last edited by Scott Free; Mar 5th, 2009 at 08:04 AM..
 
Johnnny
No Party Affiliation
#9
Recruiting afgans in afganistan to only be used in afganistan is a plausable idea to consider,yes
 
petros
#10
No. This is why we have allies.
 
normbc9
Conservative
#11
If they qualify for government aid why not? If they can take the money then they can be eligible to serve after they pass a backgound check. If they can live off the taxpayer why not render service to the country of some kind?
 
Cannuck
No Party Affiliation
#12
Why not have an Afghan unit/brigarde/division within the Canadian military. It's pretty much what happened with Canada/England in WWI. If and when the Afghan government wants to take control of it they can.
 
Tyr
Free Thinker
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo View Post

So if the Afghans are not prepared to fire upon other Afghans, then what right have we to do so? And if a soldier coldn't trust the person next to him because that person is an Afghan, then he won't trust the average man on the street either because he's an Afghan too. Does sending such zenophobic soliers to the battlefield really help things? If they really have that much distrust, don't you think th elocals pick up on it, how our soldiers look at them, stay clear of them, etc.?

So they're worthy of our protection, but not of our trust. Have you evr thought that maybe they're just returning our trust, that they are prepared to trust us as much as we trust them? If our soldiers are so standoffish against them, whereby we act as a wise Messiah coming to rescue them, but that they are unworthy of participating in their own rescue, is that not outright racist?

I'm not in favour of the war in Afghanistan. I don't think we have any reason to be there.

They are "worthy" of "participating in their own rescue(? - they need to be rescued? From what? Us?)", they just don't need us to do that

So if the Afghans are not prepared to fire upon other Afghans, then what right have we to do so? And if a soldier coldn't trust the person next to him because that person is an Afghan, then he won't trust the average man on the street either because he's an Afghan too.

big difference. the guy on the street doesn't have a rifle and is not providing fire support for him.

Does sending such zenophobic soliers to the battlefield really help things?

Who said the troops are zenophobic? That's your opinion and conclusion. How did you arrive at that?

If they really have that much distrust, don't you think th elocals pick up on it, how our soldiers look at them, stay clear of them, etc.?

They trust us as far as they can throw us. That changes by the hour and by the day
 
Spade
Free Thinker
#14
The game of modern warfare.
Let's see; I have a 195-sided coin with a different country on each side. I am about to flip the coin to see which two countries are, hypothetically, about to go to war.
Flip.....
The United States of America
Flip.....
The United Kingdom (Yes, I looked it up. There is such a country!)
Rule #1
Each country must have a standing army comprised only of its own nationals. Hmmmm...close enough!
Rule #2
Each country in turn picks, from a randomly shuffled deck, cards indicating how many of their own army are :"killed" in action by the "foe."
Example: The UK draws first, and discovers a "shock and awe" attack (as popularly broadcast on CNN and Fox) has killed 15 000 British soldiers. Immediately, the UK kills 15 000 of its own soldiers.
The USA draws second. The card reads: "17 500 American ground forces have been killed in a tactical nuclear attack." Immediately, the USA kills 17 500 of its own soldiers.
Rule #3
The country that has all its men killed loses.

You may think this is crazy. But, modern warfare is no less stupid! And, at least there would be no civilian or infrastructure damage,


PS
Canada should not fill its forces deficit with foreign nationals. Politicians would be more likely to play the war card if their own nationals are not in jeopardy.
Last edited by Spade; Mar 5th, 2009 at 02:55 PM..Reason: punctuation
 
bobnoorduyn
Free Thinker
#15
Interesting question indeed, especially when you consider a few things, eg. we have Americans serving in our forces, although not many. Far more Canadians have served, and continue to serve in the US military, many of whom are MicMaq' or other indiginous peoples. Many Canadians also serve in Her Majesty's forces. A lot of these folks join foreign services, especially the Air Forces because Canada gives preference to fancophones when it comes to promotions, (our dirty little secret which is well known but not well advertised) and anglophones feel slighted, rightly so.

But you can also think of people like Mohandas Karamchand (Mahatma) Gandhi who proudly served with the British forces in many parts of Africa. So why not have Afghans serve in the Canadian, American, British, etc. forces, especially in their own country?
 
Machjo
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post

Nope. If you want to fight for my country you better be apart of it, not just a guest.

But what happens when my country is a guest in your country? Or when my country is not fighting for itself, but for your country? Gets confusing, doesn't it?
 
Machjo
#17
If we're fighting for Canada and not Afghanistan in Afghanistan, then why are we still in Afghanistsn? Get Bin Laden as the UN mandate suggests, and get the hell out.
 
Machjo
#18
They are "worthy" of "participating in their own rescue(? - they need to be rescued? From what? Us?)", they just don't need us to do that

Well, if people insist on being there, then clearly they believe the Afghans need rescue from... themselves? Their inferior culture, to be civilized by the great all-knowing west? I don't know.


Who said the troops are zenophobic? That's your opinion and conclusion. How did you arrive at that?

I was responding to a previous comment that Canadian soldiers would have a hard time trusting Afghans in their units. Does this not imply that Canadian soldiers are zenophobic? That's not necessarily what I believe, but clearly if one believes that Canadian soldiers would fear fighting side by side with Afghans in Afghanistan, then that says that he believes Canadian soldiers to be zenophobic.

They trust us as far as they can throw us. That changes by the hour and by the day

So how can we stabilize this trust?
 
Scott Free
Free Thinker
#19
What kind of scumbag would join a foreign army to fight against his own people?

Canadians are stupid enough to believe the propaganda BS about Afghanistan, no doubt, as were the Russians etc, but to turn against ones own people!?!

Such a scum should be shot by either army.
 
Machjo
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by Scott Free View Post

What kind of scumbag would join a foreign army to fight against his own people?

Canadians are stupid enough to believe the propaganda BS about Afghanistan, no doubt, as were the Russians etc, but to turn against ones own people!?!

Such a scum should be shot by either army.

Hasegawa Teru fought on the Chinese side against Japan. Willy Brandt was co-operating with Sweden in WWII against the Nazis. Not all treason is out of personal interest. Insome cases, it comes down to a choice between treason against your country vs. treason to against your principles. In such a case, staying faithful to your principles might have to come at the cost of treason against your country. Some will make that choice if their principles are that strong.

As for whether Afghans would join a forign force against their own people, that would depend on their beliefs and principles. If they should perceive ours as a just cause, they might. Now if none of them joins, then that would be a good indication to us that maybe we're on the wrong side in this war.
 
Mogz
Conservative
#21
What? No. Do you have any idea how stupid that is?

Quote:

If our army has a right to be in their country, then their people have a
right to be in our army. If their people is unworthy of being treated as
human beings equal to us, then why are we there?

It's OUR Army, not the Afghan National Army. They have theirs, we have
ours, why on Earth would we bring people not of our culture in to our
Army? The only people that serve in the Canadian Forces, are Canadian
citizens. We have no problem working alongside other Nations, and this
is most certainly NOT about treating them as equals, they simply are not
Canadian, ergo have no place serving in the Canadian Forces. The same
goes for Americans, Japanese, French, individuals, if you're not of the
Commonwealth, sorry access denied.

Quote:

I was responding to a previous comment that Canadian soldiers would have
a hard time trusting Afghans in their units. Does this not imply that
Canadian soldiers are zenophobic? That's not necessarily what I believe,
but clearly if one believes that Canadian soldiers would fear fighting
side by side with Afghans in Afghanistan, then that says that he
believes Canadian soldiers to be zenophobic.

Lets put that to rest right now. I served in Afghanistan alongside
members of the Afghan National Army. No one in the Canadian Forces are
leery of working next to Afghan soldiers, in fact they're some excellent
guys to have next to you.

With that all said and done, it does not change the fact that
non-Canadians should not be enrolled in the Canadian Forces, simply
because we're operating in a Country they come from. Doing so would pose several problems:

Diet - Afghans do not eat the same food as we do. Partly because
they're Muslim, and largely because their food is steeped in 1000s of
years of tradition. We cannot create a supply system to cater to two
different ethnic groups.

TRAINING - Do you have any idea how much money and time it takes
to train a soldier, and not just a soldier for garrison in Canada, but
one for combat? We're talking years here, years to get a man or woman up
to code, to be able to enter a combat environment and have a better than
average chance to survive. We simply don't have the time, resources, or
NEED to train Afghans on top of our own citizens to fight.

Work ethic - Afghans have a different concept than Canadians. We
work until the work is done, they work until they're bored with it, and
pick it up again later. That simply would not work between two distinct
groups of people.

LANGUAGE - Most Afghans speak Dari or Pashtu, most Canadians
speak English or French. See the problem? How can you effectively
incorporate Afghans in to the Canadian Forces when we don't even speak
the same language? Sure, currently small mentor teams in Afghanistan use
interpreters, but that simply does not work on a large scale level.

Equality - Bringing Afghans in to the Canadian Forces would
therefore entitle them to the same benefits as Canadians; medical care,
dental care, pensions, etc, something I doubt the tax payers want to pay
for.

In the end, it's a feel good idea (albeit a pipe dream of one), but simply isn't practicle. I worked my ass off to wear the Canadian uniform, they get millions of dollars payed out to them each year by our Country and others, and equipment supplied to them from multiple Nations. I, as well as others, have no problem with
the Afghan National Army serving alongside us, just like Americans, or
Dutch, or Brits, but Afghans who are not Canadian citizens have no place in our Army.
 
Tyr
Free Thinker
#22
Quote:
If our army has a right to be in their country, then their people have a
right to be in our army. If their people is unworthy of being treated as
human beings equal to us, then why are we there?

that would be the million dollar question. Why are we there? We shouldn't be, so that makes the whole question moot
 
ironsides
No Party Affiliation
#23
"In the end, it's a feel good idea (albeit a pipe dream of one), but simply isn't practicle. I worked my ass off to wear the Canadian uniform, they get millions of dollars payed out to them each year by our Country and others, and equipment supplied to them from multiple Nations. I, as well as others, have no problem with
the Afghan National Army serving alongside us, just like Americans, or
Dutch, or Brits, but Afghans who are not Canadian citizens have no place in our Army."

Perfect reply.
 
Tonington
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by Scott Free View Post

What kind of scumbag would join a foreign army to fight against his own people?

Such a scum should be shot by either army.

Says the person who believes he is being held against his will by hostile forces. But somebody who feels as you do, and actually has conviction must be a scum bag? Maybe you're just a spineless complainer?
 
Johnnny
No Party Affiliation
#25
in afganistan yes, recruit a local miltia to police themselves....

But no i dont want no none canadian citizen in our military

The best thing i would think thats best for us is there country joins NATO and they work along side us and the rest of the other NATO countries, but this scenario is not a good one either
 
Machjo
#26
The problem with NATO though is that its purpose is to defend its members against the Wasaw Pact. The problem with that is that the Warsaw Pact doesn't exist anymore. So the problem with that is that NATO is now too busy trying to figure out who its enemy is. When an alliance no longer has a clearly defined policy or, as is the case with NATO, an outdated one with no idea for a new one, it's time to disband it.
 
Machjo
#27
North Atlantic Treaty Organization. What has Afghanistan got to do with the North Atlantic?
 
Mogz
Conservative
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by Tyr View Post

Quote:
that would be the million dollar question. Why are we there? We shouldn't be, so that makes the whole question moot

That's YOUR opinion. Thankfully it does not matter in the grand scheme of things.

Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo

Quote:
North Atlantic Treaty Organization. What has Afghanistan got to do with the North Atlantic?

Um, it's the North Atlantic TREAY ORGANIZATION. The name has nothing to do with where or why the signature members operate. It's simply a name given which reflects where the MAJORITY of signature nations are located.
 
Nuggler
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo View Post

North Atlantic Treaty Organization. What has Afghanistan got to do with the North Atlantic?

.Can't believe someone would actually ask that.

But, sure; let anyone who wants to join up, join up. Like the French Foreign Legion.
One would get a new name, a "secure" future, Canadian citizenship, and a chance to die young.

What more could one wish for?
 
DavidB
#30
No.

Citizenship requires some commitment on the part of a person, so at least a bare minimum is met. The military relies on men acting in solid, cohesive units. If anybody was let in, perhaps even people who didn't speak English, order would fall apart and the results would be fatal.
 

Similar Threads

35
Im planing to join the canadian forces
by duncandonut | Sep 12th, 2008
6
New Canadian Forces Recruiting Videos
by EastSideScotian | Oct 3rd, 2006
1
Canadian Forces Day
by FiveParadox | Jun 4th, 2006