black holes may be evolving


L Gilbert
+1
#1
The maths underpinning Darwin's theory of natural selection could explain how the universe may be 'designed' to make black holes.

Did the universe evolve to make black holes?

Nuts. Something messed up my title
 
Walter
+1
#2
The Bamster evolved.
 
Angstrom
#3
So we are inside a living thing, and we are all (our body) a universe to the infinitely smaller.

Makes sense.
 
darkbeaver
#4
The Black Hole Catastrophe and the Collapse of Spacetime
 
Dexter Sinister
#5
The usual BS from thunderbolts.info, this time a straw man fallacy. Mr. Crothers in the cited article first incorrectly defines a black hole, then argues that it theoretically can't exist (which of course is true in the terms he defines it), and concludes that therefore the whole edifice of modern cosmology is false. It's a little better quality than the usual BS, Crothers at least can do some mathematics, but still BS.
Last edited by Dexter Sinister; May 16th, 2013 at 06:03 PM..
 
darkbeaver
#6
Would you tells us the correct definition?
 
Cliffy
+3
#7  Top Rated Post
Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaver View Post

Would you tells us the correct definition?

Black holes can easily be found by squatting over a mirror and looking just behind the genitals. For some people, it can be found by looking in their ears. Black holes are everywhere, man.
 
Dexter Sinister
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaver View Post

Would you tells us the correct definition?

Surely you could look up something as basic as that. I will merely point out that he defined it as a point of infinite density surrounded by an event horizon, which is not what general relativity says it is. I also looked up Mr. Crothers and found his personal web site, where I read his rant about how he was kicked out of a physics Ph.D. program because of discrimination against his unorthodox ideas. Along the way he claimed that half a dozen working academic physicists had never heard of the Schwarzchild solution, including one whose work I've read some of who does talk about it, writing at a time long before Crothers encountered him. I knew about it as an undergraduate, it's inconceivable that half a dozen professional physicists wouldn't have heard of it. He cannot be telling the truth.
 
darkbeaver
#9
This investigation arose out of discussions the author conducted with Professor H. P. Robertson and with Drs. V. Bargmann and P. Bergmann on the mathematical and physical significance of the Schwarzschild singularity. The problem quite naturally leads to the question, answered by this paper in the negative, as to whether physical models are capable of exhibiting such a singularity. -Albert Einstein
 
Dexter Sinister
#10
I don't believe you know enough about general relativity to understand what that means or what the current thinking is on singularities, but in any event it has no bearing on Mr. Crothers' credibility, which is zero. He's trying to wear the mantle of Galileo, and failing.
 
darkbeaver
#11
Mr. Crothers' credibility and credentials are unimpeachable. You seem to have developed a sudden dislike of mathematics. What do your SkeptiPro.com junk websites say about it, I wonder? I can't wait for their reply.
 
L Gilbert
+2
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by Walter View Post

The Bamster evolved.

Well, apparently he's one up on you then.

Why don't you keep your political crap out of the science forums?

Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaver View Post

The Black Hole Catastrophe and the Collapse of Spacetime

Not going to bother pointing out the holes in Crothers' wingnut postulations but I will link to someone who has: mathematics of black hole denialism - JREF Forum
 
darkbeaver
#13
From Randi'sRentaSkeptic.org, give me a break! Still it's interesting reading. I don't often read fiction anymore but it might out me to sleep.

Einstein Was Wrong | Libertarian News


This paper is being continually updated with revisions and new findings.
In each of the four experiments, which were conducted in fall 2005 and spring 2006, ideological subgroups failed to update their beliefs when presented with corrective information that runs counter to their predispositions. Indeed, in several cases, we find that corrections actually strengthened misperceptions among the most strongly committed subjects.
- When Corrections Fail: The persistence of political misperceptions

Introduction

It is often claimed that Einstein’s theories of relativity have withstood every test thrown at them. This article attempts to challenge that claim by presenting a list of predictive failures, falsifying observations, and alternative explanations that better agree with the general rule of Occam’s razor. In science, it is generally accepted that the theory with the least amount of hypothetical postulates is superior to one with more. It was primarily on this basis that Einstein’s version of relativity won out over Lorentz’s, as Einstein was able to demonstrate a way to calculate relativistic mechanics without the need for an aether. However, as time has progressed, the amount of hypothetical entities required by Einstein’s theories has grown exponentially.
 
coldstream
+1
#14
The whole construct of Black Holes is based on the same type of exotic mathematics that gave us quantum mechanics, superstrings, .. with 11 dimensions, the expanding universe.. and other cosmological phenomenon.. that have two things in common.. they are utterly unprovable by empirical or experimental methods.. and they are totally without utility.

They rely exclusively on abstract formulas that produce only attributed results .. assessed by a closed cult, an aesthetic conceit, by a priestly class of academics. Just like the Big Bang.. the theory behind them seems to be collapsing as even their value as providing some localized predictive reliability is coming under question.

Spengler warned that science in late stage civilization would devolve into number forms.. it would abandon it proofs and technological utilities and project boundless belief systems.
 
Cliffy
+1
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by coldstream View Post

Spengler warned that science in late stage civilization would devolve into number forms.. it would abandon it proofs and technological utilities and project boundless belief systems.

Hmmm... sounds an awful lot like religion, 'specially lak dat ol' tyme religion (the archaic kind).
 
Dexter Sinister
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by coldstream View Post

.. they are utterly unprovable by empirical or experimental methods.. and they are totally without utility.

Impressive. Your ignorance is even vaster than the dim rodent's. He at least has an alternative, BS though it is. Are you unaware, for instance, that the computer you use to post here depends critically on our understanding of quantum effects for its operation, and the system of global positioning satellites depends critically on general relativity for its accuracy?
 
Liberalman
#17
Gerbils are afraid of black holes.
 
coldstream
+1
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter Sinister View Post

Impressive. Your ignorance is even vaster than the dim rodent's. He at least has an alternative, BS though it is. Are you unaware, for instance, that the computer you use to post here depends critically on our understanding of quantum effects for its operation, and the system of global positioning satellites depends critically on general relativity for its accuracy?

That's completely untrue. Science in the 20th century divided into that governed by the scientific method.. based on hypothesis and experiment.. that it is true science.... and that governed by mathematical abstraction.. which even Cliffy, in his confused state, rightly ascribed as having the character of a religion.

All of the technological advances in computing, communication, medicine, mechanics, chemistry, metallurgy are a function of the former. As for the latter, you would be hard pressed to ascribe ONE useful technological development that has been produced... after the Second World War.. to Quantum Mechanics, Superstrings, Cosmological Speculation (Big Bang, dark matter, inflation.. the whole corrupt construct is becoming evermore complex and absurd as real astronomical observation undermines it)..or for that matter the 'True Cross' of General Relativity. They all came from mechanical, chemical, metallurgical, electrical labs.. NOT those of physics. Science loses its seminal inspiration when it divorces itself from technology.. and becomes a philosophy.

The orthodox scientific culture in major universities.. which is that which bamboozles funding from government and industry.. is now completely in the hands of Cosmologists.. which sequesters for itself the largest parts of grants.. and decides who gets tenure and Nobel Prizes. I can guarantee you that the E10 billion CERN Collider will produce absolutely nothing of any value in a technological sense. And i predict that the state of culture, society, science and technology.. will be in an advanced state of decay by latter quarter of the 21st Century.

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy View Post

Hmmm... sounds an awful lot like religion, 'specially lak dat ol' tyme religion (the archaic kind).

If you'd ever read some real theology, Cliffy.. not the pop religious tracts that comprise the Fundamentalist literature and those of Eastern mysticism.. you'd realize that like 'true' science.. 'true' religion is also founded on hypothesis, reason and observation (guided by revelation). from which the thesis is derived. That divide is there as well in our time.
Last edited by coldstream; May 19th, 2013 at 09:49 AM..
 
Cliffy
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by coldstream View Post

If you'd ever read some real theology, Cliffy.. not the pop religious tracts that comprise the fundamentalists literature.. you'd realize that like 'real' science.. real 'religion' is also founded on reason and observation. That divide is there as well in our time.

Sorry dude, but I was raised catholic and am well versed in catholic ideology and history, as well as history of both western and eastern ideologies. The catholic church is based on population control, not spiritual development. I know catholics who have somehow managed to find their spiritual bearings within that archaic institution but, like any religion, most are just sheeple being fleeced by the hierarchy of the organization. The vatican is a black hole as far as I'm concerned
 
coldstream
#20
Quote:

The catholic church is based on population control, not spiritual development.

.. you can start by reading Humanae Vitae, Cliffy.. the encyclical on human sexuality..
Last edited by coldstream; May 19th, 2013 at 09:53 AM..
 
Cliffy
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by coldstream View Post

.. you can start by reading Humanae Vitae, Cliffy.. the encyclical on human sexuality..

I'm talking about political control, not birth control. The church, above everything else is a political organization, the remnants of the Roman Empire with far greater economic and political power than the Caesars could possibly have imagined, far greater than any other empire the planet has known in what we call history. I bow to no one.
 
Dexter Sinister
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by coldstream View Post

That's completely untrue.

Really? You mean your computer's microelectronics don't depend on quantum theory for devices like tunnel diodes, and the global positioning system doesn't depend on relativistic corrections to its clocks to maintain synchronization? Lot of physicists and engineers would be very surprised to learn that. Maybe you could explain it to them, it'd make those systems a lot simpler to design.
 
coldstream
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter Sinister View Post

Really? You mean your computer's microelectronics don't depend on quantum theory for devices like tunnel diodes, and the global positioning system doesn't depend on relativistic corrections to its clocks to maintain synchronization? Lot of physicists and engineers would be very surprised to learn that. Maybe you could explain it to them, it'd make those systems a lot simpler to design.

Quantum Mechanics undoes fundamental empirical observation and logical structure.. such as the continuity and integrity of time and space. It proved useful in a limited way as a predictive methodology.. more through accident than any understanding of design. Those computers were developed by someone testing the physical characteristics of an electrical current passing over transistors and wires.. and applying a logical and practical structure to them. I'm pretty sure none of them went back to their QM formula book.. which would have been a waste of time.

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy View Post

I'm talking about political control, not birth control. The church, above everything else is a political organization, the remnants of the Roman Empire with far greater economic and political power than the Caesars could possibly have imagined, far greater than any other empire the planet has known in what we call history. I bow to no one.

You're giving us way too much credit Cliffy. As is obvious now, most of the world just ignores the RCC.. much to its (the world's) peril.
Last edited by coldstream; May 19th, 2013 at 11:33 AM..
 
Dexter Sinister
+1
#24
So you think quantum mechanics and general relativity are just calculating tricks that happen to give correct answers sometimes, and quantum devices like tunnel diodes and field effect transistors were originally built with no understanding of the basic physics of what was going on inside them?

Quote: Originally Posted by coldstream View Post

... most of the world just ignores the RCC.. much to its (the world's) peril.

Doesn't seem to me that things were better when the RCC was in charge. Crusades, inquisitions, witch burnings...
 
L Gilbert
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by coldstream View Post

The whole construct of Black Holes is based on the same type of exotic mathematics that gave us quantum mechanics, superstrings, .. with 11 dimensions, the expanding universe.. and other cosmological phenomenon.. that have two things in common.. they are utterly unprovable by empirical or experimental methods.. and they are totally without utility.

They rely exclusively on abstract formulas that produce only attributed results .. assessed by a closed cult, an aesthetic conceit, by a priestly class of academics. Just like the Big Bang.. the theory behind them seems to be collapsing as even their value as providing some localized predictive reliability is coming under question.

Spengler warned that science in late stage civilization would devolve into number forms.. it would abandon it proofs and technological utilities and project boundless belief systems.

lmao Sorry for laughing, but sometimes I find a lack of understanding of pretty basic physics theory quite funny, and I mean "theory" in the scientific sense, and even the concept of scientific theory seems to be a bit foreign to you. And math is simply science's language that's able to describe phenomena in the simplest way.
 
coldstream
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter Sinister View Post

So you think quantum mechanics and general relativity are just calculating tricks that happen to give correct answers sometimes, and quantum devices like tunnel diodes and field effect transistors were originally built with no understanding of the basic physics of what was going on inside them?

Yup.. the basic understanding of those physics came from the physical properties of electricity developed by the pioneers of electricity and communication (Faraday, Bell, Edison, Tesla etc.).. by hypothesis and experiment.. The mathematical speculation of GR and QM played almost no part.


Quote:

Doesn't seem to me that things were better when the RCC was in charge. Crusades, inquisitions, witch burnings...

One of the few things i agree with in the documents of Vatican 2.. is its statement that the Church of Christ subsists within the Roman Catholic Church. There is a lot of detritus that has attached itself to the institution of the Church that has nothing to do with its real character or message.. including inquisitions, crusades, child abuse.. and a lot of other things. But i accept there is a strand of unexpurgated Truth within all that. The trick is in separating the wheat from the chaff.
Last edited by coldstream; May 19th, 2013 at 12:49 PM..
 
Cliffy
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by coldstream View Post

The trick is separating the wheat from the chaff.

There would be little o no substance left if we were to do that, as has been dramatically indicated by your writings anyway. The church's former power depended on inquisitions, crusades, which hunts and intimidation of the people into submission to that power. Anybody who thinks that is what Jesus had in mind would have to have a very twisted mind.
 
coldstream
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by L Gilbert View Post

lmao Sorry for laughing, but sometimes I find a lack of understanding of pretty basic physics theory quite funny, and I mean "theory" in the scientific sense, and even the concept of scientific theory seems to be a bit foreign to you. And math is simply science's language that's able to describe phenomena in the simplest way.

You managed to totally miss the sense of my post LG. My problem is with the method and reliability of technological innovation.. as opposed to a cult of pseudo theology (masquerading as mathematical 'theory') that has hijacked 'science'.. in academia anyway.
 
Dexter Sinister
#29
GR and QM are far more than merely mathematical speculation, they provide explanations for almost everything we know about physical reality from subatomic particles to the large scale structure of the observable universe, and their predictions have been verified to phenomenal accuracy, to one part in billions in some cases. QM, for instance, correctly predicts the electron's magnetic moment to one part in ten billion, and completely explains the periodic table of the elements. They are two of the three most successful, widest ranging, and best attested scientific theories we have, they're useful theories with real world applications. The third is the neo-Darwinian synthesis of evolution.

Quote:

The trick is in separating the wheat from the chaff.

Any clue why it took an institution that claims to know the truth about 1700 years to figure out which is which?
 
coldstream
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter Sinister View Post

GR and QM are far more than merely mathematical speculation, they provide explanations for almost everything we know about physical reality from subatomic particles to the large scale structure of the observable universe, and their predictions have been verified to phenomenal accuracy, to one part in billions in some cases. QM, for instance, correctly predicts the electron's magnetic moment to one part in ten billion. They are two of the three most successful, widest ranging, and best attested scientific theories we have, they're useful theories with real world applications. The third is the neo-Darwinian synthesis of evolution.

don't get me going on Darwin. But there is a direct historical link (an evolution if you like) from the imposition of some kind contrived synthetic logic by way of a purpose-selected set of 'facts'.. in an utterly closed and artificial system.. between Darwinism, GR, QM and Superstrings.


Wheat from Chaff by the away refers to a quote by John the Baptist is Mathew 3:12.. so its much more original, and had come to Church's attention much prior to 1700.


Quote:

His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the granary, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.

Last edited by coldstream; May 19th, 2013 at 01:16 PM..
 

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