Alberta moves to export water!


cyberclark
#1
Recently there were two news items. Drumheller Alberta and Okotoks Alberta purchased water allotments. The first was from an unnamed party (insider) the other was from an Oil Company. The latter cost Okotoks over a million dollars for rights to some 230,000 cubic meters of water annually.

Water allotments have never been sold. The oil companies received them free of charge as did the unnamed insider. Why then the sale?

Bolstered by the Alberta Government the towns had to pay up. This adds many dollars to the resource and forces the price of water utilities way up. When it comes time to export, they will tell Albertans the cost is the same. Edmonton now has the highest water prices in the world (National Geographic April 2010).

Following the long standing Conservative dream of including water into NAFTA and changing bulk water to a commodity is fore front in their plans.

If we export water under NAFTA rules, we must give the Americans first chance at the water and we cannot charge the Americans more money than we are now paying. When it comes time to export, people in Alberta will be paying the same or more money than those people in California who are the targeted export market.

Meanwhile TV is carrying subtle advertisements in fill in spots saying our water is our finest resource and it must be shared.

All this ties in with the new dam being built on the Peace by BC.

Dig in folks; if they get away with this it will be rough!
 
dumpthemonarchy
Free Thinker
#2
No bulk water sales.
 
cyberclark
#3
As a PS:
The Government set this up by giving oil companies many times more water than they needed!
 
Johnnny
No Party Affiliation
#4
im still trying to figure out where the beach is in alberta
 
Ron in Regina
Free Thinker
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by cyberclark View Post

Meanwhile TV is carrying subtle advertisements in fill in spots saying our water is our finest resource and it must be shared....


Uhmm....who's sponsoring these TV commercials? Just curious in a "follow the
money" sort'a way.
 
Mowich
Conservative
#6
I googled this cyberclark as I wasn't aware of it happening. My interest is always perked when I hear anything about Canada/Provinces selling anything more than bulk water. The Alberta government is extremely shortsighted and shows a real disconnect with the facts about world wide water shortages. This decision has far reaching effects well beyond Alberta's borders. They better not look this way when their wells run dry. Alberta has a bad environmental record but this move is beyond stupid.

Got Thirst? : What other's are saying
 
cyberclark
#7
If the Conservatives are allowed to rule Ottawa and Canada it is as good as a done deal! Some time ago the Conservative Party of Canada went before the committee of the Privy Council trying to get Bulk Water included in NAFTA.

The ruling was No, NAFTA did not include Bulk Water Export.

The Conservative party of Canada said they would wait their time and a different venue to pursue.
 
petros
#8
Drinking water or industrial water?
 
cyberclark
#9
Bulk water sales; as in potable (drinking) water.
 
Hamlet
#10
Selling water brings ups a couple questions.
1) Should water be considered a commodity?
2) If water should not be sold, what are the reasons?
3) If water is sold, who should set the terms? Province or feds?
4) If water is sold, should it be treated no differently than any other commodity? (Grain, beef, timber, minerals, etc. where X dollars buys X amount of a commodity) Or should water resources be tied into something else as well? (Territorial concessions, i.e. U.S. recognizes Canadian Arctic Sovereignty, Northwest Passage, etc., or receiving preferential trading practices, etc., or something else entirely?
 
Bar Sinister
No Party Affiliation
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by Johnnny View Post

im still trying to figure out where the beach is in alberta


You've never heard of Alberta Beach?
Alberta Beach Accommodations - Alberta Beach Alberta Hotels, Motels, Resorts, Bed and Breakfasts, Campgrounds Alberta Beach - Alberta Beach AB Motel

So far as the post is concerned, there are two limitations.
1. Alberta barely has enough water for itself. Alberta has the lowest level of water resources in Canada except perhaps for the much smaller provinces of NB, NS, and PEI.
2. Exports of anything must receive federal approval. Selling water to anyone is not yet on the federal agenda and would probably be fought by most Canadians if is was.
 
wulfie68
No Party Affiliation
#12
A couple things to note:

- water used by the oil companies is used to replace the fluid (oil) pumped out of the reservoirs to keep the pressure in the reservoirs higher, allowing them to get more oil out of the reservoirs. They won't be exporting it.
- water used by the oil companies can be but isn't limited to surface/potable ground water aquifers. The regulatory bodies in Alberta, especially in the last decade or two have leaned more and more on the oil companies to use deeper aquifers that are non-potable.
- there are bottled water companies already in Canada that are allowed to export water, not just in Alberta. They usually operate as subsidiarys of Pepsi and Coca Cola bottlers but there are some other independent companies.
 
cyberclark
#13
Oil companies have long passed up the lower, unpotable aquifer as being too expensive. It lays generally at the 4000 foot level.

The bottled water companies are selling bottled water which is and has been legal. What is not legal is the export of bulk water. Bulk water is quantities equal to or greater than 1 cubic meter. Yet, tanker trucks of water are still going across the border one what kind of permit, I don't know.

Coca Cola owns most of the aquifer water in Calgary. Calgary city owns only surface water supplied by glacial flow. Soon enough Calgary will be buying their water off Coke. All this thanks to Ralph Klein.

The water allowances given to oil companies are many times greater than their needs. This, is extra is what they will be selling to the communities to drive up the water prices and pocket change for the insiders.

The fresh water that goes down hole never, ever is used again.
------
The Weatherford project is a fully engineered water movement from the Peace River. It was done by the Conservatives in the 80s and is very valid and ready to go today if need be. This ties in with the meeting with BC and the subsequent announcement of a new dam on the Peace River.

Letter sent to the Minister November 10-2003.


The Honorable Dr. Lorne Taylor,
Minister of Environment,
Government of Alberta.

Your recent comments quoted in the ‘Journal indicate you are about to move people to the water, rather than water to the people.

I have cause to wonder if this is just “chewing gum for the mind”!

The Alberta Government is presently involved in moving potable water from the St. Mary’s irrigation system in southern Alberta by pipe line into Montana. This, going against the wishes of local ranchers and stakeholders! The water is being used for water in a recreation area in Montana as well as for drinking.

What is the name of the Minister who put this project into place?

Who paid for the materials in the pipeline?

What is the diameter of the line?

Where are the lift stations and who pays for them?

What is the annual quantity of water exported from this drought area?

Why is this not considered illegal?

Does the Alberta Government bill for the charges directly or has this been turned over to a private company to operate at their convenience? If so, what is the name and address of this company?

In the ‘80s the Alberta Government commissioned a study by Weatherford on moving water from the Peace River into Southern Alberta, using it to irrigate the pipeline corridor and export huge amounts into the American northern states.

This plan calls for an immense pipe line capable of moving two-thirds of the Peace River Flow through the pipe along with the assurances it will not harm the wild life. This same plan calls for 8 lift stations to move the water; each of them using the electrical power of a small city.

Further, this plan was approved, only shelved, until the weather gets dry enough and the public can see the light. It is my understanding this project has been given recent notice and review. How far along is this plan?

Lastly the CBC documentary we corresponded about. Your Senior Hydrologist confirmed there would be no saline discharges at the “pristine” Alberta location shown in that documentary so it would be impossible to get the Montana situation at that site. It ignores the fact that Montana situations exist in other parts of Alberta and BC. The CBC documentary was grossly misleading to say the least and, I know they are capable of better. So, the question comes. Did the Alberta Government subsidize or otherwise pay the CBC to produce that program?
 
petros
#14
If they keep fracking there will be very little potable ground water in AB.
 
cyberclark
#15
You hit the nail on the head: Coal bed methane lies below the water table. To access the methane multi holes must be punched through the aquifer. Two problems arise. First the migration of heavy metals upwards through these holes into the drinking aquifer a serious and unrecoverable contamination.

Secondly the cementing of older wells is found to be decaying thus opening older wells unsupervised. The extent of the damage is not known. In the recent past Alberta has pushed a make work program for the oil industry to patch up these old wells but, there have been no public releases as to the success or lack of it.
 
bill barilko
#16
Interesting developments-Thanks for keeping us informed.
 
cdarro
#17
There have been tentative plans to export bulk water for at least 45 years. Google NAWAPA (North American Water And Power Alliance). The earliest proposal I`m aware of came from the Ralph (?) M. Parsons Company, an engineering firm from Los Angeles in 1964. It goes far beyond anything currently being envisioned.
 
cyberclark
#18
Astute and accurate; thanks. Things that pop into my mind are the export lobbies to move ice burgs from Canada to California. That failed and as I recall they jumped onto fresh water where ever they could find it.

It is a long term game by Conservatives and it appears it is coming to full fledged.
 
dumpthemonarchy
Free Thinker
#19
Exporting bulk water is exporting jobs. When we export grain or food, what is being exported is water, and we get many jobs out of it. It makes about as much sense to export raw bitumen to let others process it into gasoline. They get the more skilled jobs and we are the drawers of water. Alberta is a politically primitive environment, supine to Dick Cheney and the military-industrial complex.
 
cyberclark
#20
Alberta Conservatives have all but killed this province. With the royalty schemes falling again and again and the resources being sheared off with nothing going back to the province it is a huge loss. Even the heritage trust was stripped of all wealth above 4% then, anything above 4% was used as operational money.

They have cut support for universities to force kids through trade schools. Any kid educated in Alberta that somehow ends up in University is going to get killed because they do not have the high school support.

The wild rose party is of the same cut if not more extreme.


Albertan's are stuck on Conservative, that is being stuck on dumb.
 
Bar Sinister
No Party Affiliation
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by cyberclark View Post

Astute and accurate; thanks. Things that pop into my mind are the export lobbies to move ice burgs from Canada to California. That failed and as I recall they jumped onto fresh water where ever they could find it.

It is a long term game by Conservatives and it appears it is coming to full fledged.

Canada? It would make more sense to move them from Alaska.
 
cyberclark
#22
One last word on the subject of water export under NAFTA,

Because we cannot charge the Americans more than we pay ourselves under the agreement, it is the Conservative plan to drastically increase the price of water to the Canadian consumers thereby opening the door to greater profits on the export side of things.

This is why EPCOR is the highest priced water in the world! This is why municipalities are quickly upping their fees. The town of Devon as an example recently increased their water fees by 25% without so much as a nod to the citizens.

They plan on more increases.

How this moved so fast and far in Alberta:
The province invented a whole new level of indirect taxation in shelling off the power lines to Calgary and Edmonton and now, the water.

Much of the water allotments were given free to the cities and towns. In the Case of Calgary, both Coke and Calgary Brewing received their aquifer allotments free of charge and are now in the position of selling them to the city.

Much of the provincial expenditures were downloaded to the communities also.

It was an easy sale. Take the utilities and you have and endless amount of cash coming in. You will not have to go to the citizens for approval; just charge what you want! There will be no more going to the citizens for a mill rate increase fight.

This is coming to the rest of Canada. Your cost of living is going to increase dramatically if the Conservatives are allowed to maintain power.
 
Mowich
Conservative
#23
I did a bit more research on water exports. Thought I would share some of the articles with the forum.

Lawrence Cannon – Min of Foreign Affairs – Transboundary Waters Protection Act – May 13, 2010
“The new act strengthens existing protections by bringing waters within federal jurisdiction under a more comprehensive prohibition against bulk water removals. Rivers and streams that cross international borders will now receive the same protection already in place for waters, such as the Great Lakes, that straddle them.
The Act gives the federal government new powers of inspection and enforcement and introduces tough new penalties for violations, including fines of up to $6 million for corporate violations. The bill offers unprecedented federal protection against bulk water exports while respecting provincial constitutional jurisdiction.”

http://www.international.gc.ca/media/aff/news-communiques/2010/161.aspx?lang=eng


Bill C-26 – Summary of the bill can be found here.

http://www.canadainternational.gc.ca/can-am/bilat_can/bill-loi.aspx?lang=eng


An article on the pro side of the water sales debate.


“Fortunately, there is some hope that the wisdom of water sales may eventually triumph over emotionalism. Last spring the McCurdy Group, a Newfoundland company looking for permission to tanker 13 billion gallons a year from pristine Gisbourne Lake, received an unexpected endorsement from Newfoundland's Liberal Premier Roger Grimes. Mr. Grimes has promised to use the money the government gets from the deal to underwrite university tuitions in Canada's poorest province. A better plan would be to auction the rights and use the proceeds for much-needed tax cuts.


The McCurdy Group is still waiting for an official go-ahead but thanks to Canadian law, the federal government can't stop the province from granting the permit. "We don't want to sell water in bulk," says Mr. Chretien, "But at the same time, we have to realize that we don't have absolute control of the water. We have control of navigable waters, but we don't have control of other types of water that are under the provincial jurisdiction." Ontario and British Columbia have already said "no" to companies that want to sell water by tanker but if Newfoundland has success in water marketing that might change.”

http://www.fcpp.org/publication.php/220


The Green Party’s position on the SPP –Security and Prosperity Partnership as it applies to water exports.

11. Is the SPP a threat to Canada’s freshwater?





Yes. Among the SPP’s biggest threats are water exports and the damage that would result from diverting water from watersheds and basins to consumers south of the border. Persistent droughts on the prairies and low water levels in the Great Lakes are good arguments against water exports. Federal studies show that the Great Lakes could not sustain removal of large volumes of water, especially with the compounding effects of climate change. Using rivers that flow north, as most of our rivers do, to supply the US would require monumental feats of engineering and inevitably lead to ecological devastation by reversing the streams’ natural flow. And Canada would lose control over its water. Because NAFTA describes water as a "good" and stipulates that "no party may adopt or maintain any prohibition or restriction on the exportation or sale for export of any good destined for the territory of another party," it follows that once Canada starts exporting fresh water to the US, it would be impossible to turn off the tap. 12.How do we know water exports are being discussed? According to the leaked minutes of a 2004 meeting of the Task Force on the Future of North America, which led to the SPP: "No item, not Canadian water, not Mexican oil, not American anti-dumping laws, is off the table.” Since then , three key developments suggest that water has now been moved to the front burner:
  • The case for selling Canadian water is being presented more forcefully in the media by SPP proponents, journalists, business strategists and investors seeking profits in this potentially lucrative market.
  • Massive NAFTA Super-Corridors, complete with plans for water pipelines, are in the works.
  • Bulk water exports were the focus of meetings of the North American Future 2025 Project. According to documents leaked by a Washington-based think tank, SPP meetings in Calgary on April 28, 2007 were to discuss "water consumption, water transfers and artificial diversions of bulk water" with the aim of "maximizing the policy impact.”
http://greenparty.ca/en/policy/spp_FAQ#11 .


This is a paper that goes into detail about the NAFTA and GATT agreements regarding water.

WATER AS A COMMODITY
By
Dr. Isabel Al-Assar, LLM
Oxford University
Brookes College
Oxford , England
http://www.waterbank.com/Newsletters/nws18.html

This last article is the NAFTA agreement regarding water.

WATER EXPORTS AND THE NAFTA
http://dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca/Collection-R/LoPBdP/EB/prb995-e.htm

We in Canada sometimes forget how very fortunate we are to be blessed with a richness of resources. Of them all, water is the most important and I would argue the most precious. Water is life.

Canada is currently a signatory to several agreements that have the potential to adversely affect our sovereign rights over water.
The pressure to sell bulk exports of water is only going to increase in the future as water sources dry up around the world.

Protecting our water is of premier importance and any move to bulk sales should be met with opposition.
 
cyberclark
#24
Thanks for some really great research. I know how much time it takes to dig!

Loose lips Liepert told the world on TV that Alberta would privatize medicine. If need be there would be changes made to the Canada Health Act..

When one draws the same strident Conservative dogma onto water, it is a sure thing that Harper is going to okay it.

I traced the adds "water is precious; it must be shared" as produced by the Conservative run Department of Environment.

We are on the knife's edge. If Harper reigns, the water is gone! Meanwhile Alberta is jacking up the price of water so the importers can get more when the export starts.

They are treating it as a sure thing.
 
Mowich
Conservative
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by cyberclark View Post

Thanks for some really great research. I know how much time it takes to dig!

Loose lips Liepert told the world on TV that Alberta would privatize medicine. If need be there would be changes made to the Canada Health Act..

When one draws the same strident Conservative dogma onto water, it is a sure thing that Harper is going to okay it.

I traced the adds "water is precious; it must be shared" as produced by the Conservative run Department of Environment.

We are on the knife's edge. If Harper reigns, the water is gone! Meanwhile Alberta is jacking up the price of water so the importers can get more when the export starts.

They are treating it as a sure thing.

You are most welcome, CC. You know how it goes, one things leads to another and another. I enjoy research.

I am a Conservative CC, never made any bones about it. I hope you are wrong about Harper but then he has made mistakes in the past.

However, this issue goes way beyond politics, IMHO. Water is a necessity of all life. People have to wake up realize that we need to conserve our water as much as possible. We need to clean up our waterways. We need to take steps to ensure that all water is treated as it should be - with care.

I have a shallow well that has a tendency to get very low in mid-summer. Since I bought my place, I have collected rain water which I use for everything from laundry to gardening and personal cleansing. Most of the summer I use rain water for all my cleansing. My gray water goes on my plants. When I see people in the city watering their lawns in the heat of a summer`s day - all that moisture evaporating before it even hits the ground - or washing their cars, or driveways - I just feel sick.

If, indeed, Canada decides to move to bulk water exports, people will be in for the shock of their lives as the price of water sky rockets and something as simple as flushing a toliet becomes a serious economic decision.
 
cyberclark
#26
Likewise I was a Conservative riding secretary for a number of years and worked very hard to get these guys elected. Then along came Klein and I worked very hard since trying to unseat them.

You mention highest prices - Indeed. The way it is going they are pushing water prices to be the highest in the world so that when they enter NAFTA they will be rolling in the gold on exports.
 
cyberclark
#27
On June 16the the Western Premiers met in Vancouver. Their agenda primary was environment, energy and the economy. Campbell also said "There will also be a focus on water and how to manage and conserve what Campbell called a "critical component of all activities" in Canada. Campbell also said "There will also be a focus on water and hot to manage an conserve what Campbell called a "critical component of all activities in Canada"

Read more: Western premiers meet in B.C.

After this meeting BC announced building a new dam on the Peace River.

It is my thought that BC is going to build the dam, Alberta is going to build the pipeline and Saskatchewan, and the NWT are going to split the profits.

If this goes through it means Alberta will further reduce the oil royalty close to zero and Albertans will be paying 30 to 50 times more for their water based on California prices.

Remember the higher they can push your water utility prices the more the exporters can collect from the US.


 
Kakato
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by cyberclark View Post

Oil companies have long passed up the lower, unpotable aquifer as being too expensive. It lays generally at the 4000 foot level.

The bottled water companies are selling bottled water which is and has been legal. What is not legal is the export of bulk water. Bulk water is quantities equal to or greater than 1 cubic meter. Yet, tanker trucks of water are still going across the border one what kind of permit, I don't know.

Coca Cola owns most of the aquifer water in Calgary. Calgary city owns only surface water supplied by glacial flow. Soon enough Calgary will be buying their water off Coke. All this thanks to Ralph Klein.

The water allowances given to oil companies are many times greater than their needs. This, is extra is what they will be selling to the communities to drive up the water prices and pocket change for the insiders.

The fresh water that goes down hole never, ever is used again.
------
The Weatherford project is a fully engineered water movement from the Peace River. It was done by the Conservatives in the 80s and is very valid and ready to go today if need be. This ties in with the meeting with BC and the subsequent announcement of a new dam on the Peace River.

Letter sent to the Minister November 10-2003.


The Honorable Dr. Lorne Taylor,
Minister of Environment,
Government of Alberta.

Your recent comments quoted in the ‘Journal indicate you are about to move people to the water, rather than water to the people.

I have cause to wonder if this is just “chewing gum for the mind”!

The Alberta Government is presently involved in moving potable water from the St. Mary’s irrigation system in southern Alberta by pipe line into Montana. This, going against the wishes of local ranchers and stakeholders! The water is being used for water in a recreation area in Montana as well as for drinking.

What is the name of the Minister who put this project into place?

Who paid for the materials in the pipeline?

What is the diameter of the line?

Where are the lift stations and who pays for them?

What is the annual quantity of water exported from this drought area?

Why is this not considered illegal?

Does the Alberta Government bill for the charges directly or has this been turned over to a private company to operate at their convenience? If so, what is the name and address of this company?

In the ‘80s the Alberta Government commissioned a study by Weatherford on moving water from the Peace River into Southern Alberta, using it to irrigate the pipeline corridor and export huge amounts into the American northern states.

This plan calls for an immense pipe line capable of moving two-thirds of the Peace River Flow through the pipe along with the assurances it will not harm the wild life. This same plan calls for 8 lift stations to move the water; each of them using the electrical power of a small city.

Further, this plan was approved, only shelved, until the weather gets dry enough and the public can see the light. It is my understanding this project has been given recent notice and review. How far along is this plan?

Lastly the CBC documentary we corresponded about. Your Senior Hydrologist confirmed there would be no saline discharges at the “pristine” Alberta location shown in that documentary so it would be impossible to get the Montana situation at that site. It ignores the fact that Montana situations exist in other parts of Alberta and BC. The CBC documentary was grossly misleading to say the least and, I know they are capable of better. So, the question comes. Did the Alberta Government subsidize or otherwise pay the CBC to produce that program?

I'll call bull**** on this,in cold lake they drill for non potable water for steam injection to extract bitumen from oilsand deposits,allmost 1 in every 4 pipelines running down the right of ways is for water from this source and it's called brackish water.

Sounds like someone with an agenda is pushing bad information once again.

As for irrigating Montana,you leave out the part where we use their water in dry times,this is such old news that I dont know why it's even posted as it was all public many many years ago
Funny why I dont see any links with some facts posted here,just an opinion piece or what?

Quote: Originally Posted by cyberclark View Post

Alberta Conservatives have all but killed this province. With the royalty schemes falling again and again and the resources being sheared off with nothing going back to the province it is a huge loss. Even the heritage trust was stripped of all wealth above 4% then, anything above 4% was used as operational money.

They have cut support for universities to force kids through trade schools. Any kid educated in Alberta that somehow ends up in University is going to get killed because they do not have the high school support.

The wild rose party is of the same cut if not more extreme.


Albertan's are stuck on Conservative, that is being stuck on dumb.

Ok,I see your agenda now.Yawn,you know nothing of what the royalties did do you?
Got any experience in the energy industry?
Funny how Alberta now has the biggest gains in new jobs created with all these doom and gloom predictions that came out when the royalties were cut.
The energy guys were right,the cuts created more jobs and kept the industry from slumping longer then it could have,we recovered nicely party in fact to the royalty cuts.
Alberta's economy feeds much of Canada,more then anyone not in the industry would ever know.
 
cyberclark
#29
I know a great deal about the subject. The conservatives have stripped the heritage trust fund of 70 billion dollars to augment still lower royalties!

In the Conservative world, including people like yourself, the only thing this province is entitled to is wages and income tax derived from those wages and industry.

When you consider the advanced charges we pay for everything because of this lowball return industry, Albertans are paying the resource companies for taking the product out of province.

Jobs; Jobs. The biggest is the snow job they have managed to promote and it is only part time these days.

If you are unsure what political filth and grafting is; look to Alberta.
 
Kakato
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by cyberclark View Post

I know a great deal about the subject. The conservatives have stripped the heritage trust fund of 70 billion dollars to augment still lower royalties!

In the Conservative world, including people like yourself, the only thing this province is entitled to is wages and income tax derived from those wages and industry.

When you consider the advanced charges we pay for everything because of this lowball return industry, Albertans are paying the resource companies for taking the product out of province.

Jobs; Jobs. The biggest is the snow job they have managed to promote and it is only part time these days.

If you are unsure what political filth and grafting is; look to Alberta.

Nantons been exporting water for years and years,why no outcry about that?

Albertas also leading the country in jobs,cut them and all the east will be relying on govt. money again,if a royalty cut provides jobs then im all for it,maybe you just have a hate on for Alberta?????
Sure looks like it.

Anyone wants to see the jobs created by the energy industry for eastern Canadians only has to spend 1 hour in fort mc murray.

They should have sent all the Newfs over to Iraq as they took over fort Mac without firing a shot.
 

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