How to appropriately punish the Russian Federation for the illegal annexation of Crim


Machjo
#1
With Russia's annexation of Crimea and consequently the sanctions against the Federation appearing to be of an indefinite duration, long-term economic sanctions with no end in sight harm not only the Russian Federation itself but the world economy as a whole, including even Ukrain's that one would hope could benefit from such sanctions.

Due to the indefinite duration of the sanctions to be put in place, what kind of economically less harmful sanctions could we place against the Federation that could also benefit Ukraine?

The following is just a brainstorm, but could be a start to such a discussion:

1. Stop recognizing the Russian passports of anyone born one year after the new law is passed or later as a valid travel document.

2. Recognize a Ukrainian-Language Passport (ULP) that Ukrainian passport offices and embassies could issue. The rules concerning the issuance of ULP's could be as follows:

Any national under the age of 15, over the age of 70, who is proved medically unable to learn to read or write, or who passes a Ukrainian written test could obtain such a passport, the ULP of any medically able person under fifteen expiring on his birthday if that is sooner than what the expiry date would otherwise have been.

This would allow Canada to pursue otherwise friendly relations and possibly even free trade with the Russian Federation while still forcing the Federation to compensate and continue to compensate Ukraine for the illegal annexation of Crimea by promoting the Ukrainian language industry throughout Russia among Russians who intend to travel abroad.

Of course there might be other better ideas, but at least this would force the Federation to compensate Ukrain without necessarily affecting trade relations.

Recognizing that some EU countries might be more dependent on Russian travel to their countries and that imposing a ULP requirement on Russians who intend to travel to their countries could cause them noticeable economic hardship, we might want to consider allowing Ukrainian passport offices to also issue Esperanto-Language Passports (ELP) that would follow the same application rules as for the ULP but for Esperanto instead. Esperanto being multiple times easier to learn than other languages would make it much less of a barrier to obtaining that passport.

This way, states that enjoy minimal Russian travel as is could choose to recognize only the ULP, more vulnerable states that are somewhat more economically dependant on Russian travel could choose to recognize the ELP, and the weakest states could recognize both.
 
Blackleaf
+1
#2
I'm afraid that Crimea rightfully belongs to Russia and Russia was right to annex it.
 
Machjo
#3
This would also give Ukraine the authority to refuse to issue ELP's to residents of Crimea if it should choose to do so, thus offering them only the option of ULP's.

Quote: Originally Posted by Blackleaf View Post

I'm afraid that Crimea rightfully belongs to Russia and Russia was right to annex it.

I agree to a degree in that ethnically Crimea is predominantly Russian and the majority voted in favour of annexation.

However, the ends don't justify the means. Russia had illegally entered what international law recognized and continues to recognize as Ukrainian territory.

One could argue that Ukraine should have treated its Russian minorities with more respect or should have allowed a referendum itself, but that was still a decision for Ukrain, not Russia, to make.
 
Blackleaf
#4
Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo View Post

This would also give Ukraine the authority to refuse to issue ELP's to residents of Crimea if it should choose to do so, thus offering them only the option of ULP's.


Crimea is a historically Russian territory which has only been part of Ukraine since 1954 when Russia ceded it to Ukraine, but it didn't matter than as both Ukraine and Russia were part of the same country - the USSR.

But Ukraine gained its independence in 1991 (when the USSR broke up) and took Crimea with it. But most Crimeans are ethnic Russians who wish to still be joined with Russia and don't want to be part of an independent Ukraine.

Crimea belongs to Russia, I'm afraid. It's time you accepted that.
 
Machjo
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by Blackleaf View Post

Crimea is a historically Russian territory which has only been part of Ukraine since 1954 when Russia ceded it to Ukraine, but it didn't matter than as both Ukraine and Russia were part of the same country - the USSR.

But Ukraine gained its independence in 1991 (when the USSR broke up) and took Crimea with it. But most Crimeans are ethnic Russians who wish to still be joined with Russia and don't want to be part of an independent Ukraine.

Crimea belongs to Russia, I'm afraid. It's time you accepted that.

I agree superficially with what you are saying, but there is also the matter of due process and precedent.

The West was encouraging turmoil in Ukraine at the time and so has to accept some blame for this too. Ukrainians themselves discriminated against their Russian compatriots. But even all off that still did not excuse Russia annexing Crimea in the manner that it had done so.
 
B00Mer
No Party Affiliation
#6
Who cares... let them have it.. hope they take Syria, and Iran too.

After Justin is elected as PM they can also have the 3 Canadian Territories as well..

www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD3QNM-E_nE
 
Machjo
#7
Interesting. In my other thread about building friendlier relations with Russia, everyone was treating it as the evil empire. In this thread, everyone is defending it.
 
Blackleaf
+1
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo View Post

I agree superficially with what you are saying, but there is also the matter of due process and precedent.

The West was encouraging turmoil in Ukraine at the time and so has to accept some blame for this too. Ukrainians themselves discriminated against their Russian compatriots. But even all off that still did not excuse Russia annexing Crimea in the manner that it had done so.


Yeah. The EU - a much more expansionist power than Russia - is to blame for the situation in Ukraine.
 
B00Mer
No Party Affiliation
#9
 
Machjo
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by Blackleaf View Post

Yeah. The EU - a much more expansionist power than Russia - is to blame for the situation in Ukraine.

You might have a point there too. The EU should have only invited Ukraine to join, not pressured it to join.

I'love concede that too. But even that is no excuse to violate international law. To be fair, we don't always respect it either, but two wrongs still don't make a right.

Quote: Originally Posted by B00Mer View Post

How does that fit into this thread? Russia is hardly communist.
 
darkbeaver
Republican
+1
#11
Ukrain already does not exist so who would be compensated? The former Ukraine is already fully occupied and operated by western corporations who have already carved it up.
In the meantime, in Nazi-occupied Ukraine
 
B00Mer
No Party Affiliation
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo View Post

How does that fit into this thread? Russia is hardly communist.

You're right it's now more of a dictatorship with Putin as it's leader.

I still think Russia has many of it's communist remnants still in power and running the country.. it can call itself a democracy, sorta like China saying it's giving more freedom to it's citizens.. then tossing a few protestors in jail after testing their new freedom.
 
darkbeaver
Republican
+3
#13  Top Rated Post
71% of Britons support the Russian operation in Syria. Amazing, no?

Machjo, where does international law exist?

Quote: Originally Posted by B00Mer View Post

You're right it's now more of a dictatorship with Putin as it's leader.

I still think Russia has many of it's communist remnants still in power and running the country.. it can call itself a democracy, sorta like China saying it's giving more freedom to it's citizens.. then tossing a few protestors in jail after testing their new freedom.

If you could point to a functioning democracy it may help us understand what you're trying to say.
 
Machjo
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaver View Post

71% of Britons support the Russian operation in Syria. Amazing, no?

I'm still undecided on the matter, but it's no worse than what we'doing there. To sanction Russia over Crimea is excessive given the reasons Blackleaf gave. No, the ends don't justify the means, but Russia did have if not a legitimate, then at least a semi-legitimate reason for annexing Crimea. I'm just saying it still should have been done according to international law, which I concede can be difficult to do when we don't either.
 
B00Mer
No Party Affiliation
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaver View Post

If you could point to a functioning democracy it may help us understand what you're trying to say.

Canada, probably one of the best in the world.. (I may be Bias on that statement)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi1yhp-_x7A
 
Danbones
Free Thinker
#16
who in the past has attacked russia
the banker funded bolshevics and the banker funded nazis
both of which are being or have already been tossed out of russia
but not the current ( as stalin said it's who counts the votes, not who votes )nato regimes
say who counts the votes in the US?
Soros-connected Vote-counting Firm Expands in U.S.http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews...expands-in-u-s
oh look SOROS the NAZIJEW who brags about turning in Jews to Hitler and taking their money to the rothschilds ON 60 MINUTES
George Soros and the Nazis: The Whole Truth, In His Own Words - See more at: http://www.richardpoe.com/2006/08/02....6IfDRwrB.dpuf


"The Washington Post is correct: the Russian people do fully support Putin, especially if you consider that the 11% which are not happy with him are largely composed of Communists who blame Putin for being too sympathetic to capitalist market economy practices, nationalists who think that the Kremlin is too soft or indecisive about supporting Novorussia against the Ukronazis and maybe 1-3% (max!) who generally support the USA & EU. So in terms of the current confrontation with the AngloZionist Empire the real approval rating of Putin would be in the 97-98% range."
Western Presstitutes Dumbfounded by Vladimir Putin’s 89% Approval Rating - PaulCraigRoberts.org

seems the same people we don't like
don't like Putin

but nato installs neo nazis nutbars?
who the IDF, that were in there sniping both sides to get the party started, brag about being their BROTHERS in their newspapers
"“I don’t belong [to Svoboda], but I take orders from their team. They know I’m Israeli, Jewish and an ex-IDF soldier. They call me ‘brother,’” he said. “What they’re saying about Svoboda is exaggerated, I know this for a fact. I don’t like them because they’re inconsistent, not because of [any] anti-Semitism issue.”
In Kiev, an Israeli army vet led a street-fighting unit | Jewish Telegraphic Agency
wow: "BROTHERS"

funny, ever since he nationalized the central bank the rothschild empire has been on his, and russia's butt
like yemen:
boy, you throw out the ISUS/NATO soros the nazi approved dictatoe and wammo instant prestitute and bombado soup

russia ain't the problem
but like in WW2 which was mainly won by them and not the boastfull US that supplied them with better FORD trucks then the allies had
to bad they didn't have toyotas then
Last edited by Danbones; Oct 17th, 2015 at 06:56 AM..
 
Blackleaf
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo View Post

I'm still undecided on the matter, but it's no worse than what we'doing there. To sanction Russia over Crimea is excessive given the reasons Blackleaf gave. No, the ends don't justify the means, but Russia did have if not a legitimate, then at least a semi-legitimate reason for annexing Crimea. I'm just saying it still should have been done according to international law, which I concede can be difficult to do when we don't either.

Nah. Sometimes a country should have the right to ignore international law if it's in that country's national interests.

Most Britons supported the Iraq War when it started in 2003 and had no problem over the fact that the UN never gave its authorisation.
 
darkbeaver
Republican
+1
#18
Canada is being asked right now to decide it's political furture based on a popularity contest run as a two bit talent show rather than an informed decision based on full disclosure of government operation, trade negotiations, international agreements, aliances, monetary policy in other words the electorate are not at all educated enough to make a factual democratic decision of selection of government.

Quote: Originally Posted by Danbones View Post

"The Washington Post is correct: the Russian people do fully support Putin, especially if you consider that the 11% which are not happy with him are largely composed of Communists who blame Putin for being too sympathetic to capitalist market economy practices, nationalists who think that the Kremlin is too soft or indecisive about supporting Novorussia against the Ukronazis and maybe 1-3% (max!) who generally support the USA & EU. So in terms of the current confrontation with the AngloZionist Empire the real approval rating of Putin would be in the 97-98% range."
Western Presstitutes Dumbfounded by Vladimir Putin’s 89% Approval Rating - PaulCraigRoberts.org

seems the same people we don't like
don't like Putin

but nato installs neo nazis nutbars?
who the IDF, that were in there sniping both sides to get the party started, brag about being their BROTHERS in their newspapers
"“I don’t belong [to Svoboda], but I take orders from their team. They know I’m Israeli, Jewish and an ex-IDF soldier. They call me ‘brother,’” he said. “What they’re saying about Svoboda is exaggerated, I know this for a fact. I don’t like them because they’re inconsistent, not because of [any] anti-Semitism issue.”
In Kiev, an Israeli army vet led a street-fighting unit | Jewish Telegraphic Agency
wow: "BROTHERS"

funny, ever since he nationalized the central bank the rothschild empire has been on his, and russia's butt
like yemen:
boy, you throw out the ISUS/NATO soros the nazi approved dictatoe and wammo instant prestitute and bombado soup

Russian central bank not yet nationalized, soon though, I think, Russian not satisfied with banks performance recently.
 
Machjo
#19
So Blackleaf, if I understand correctly, you see no reason for the present sanctions against the Russian Federation and so no reason to replace them with alternative sanctions either.

Do I understand that correctly?
 
Danbones
Free Thinker
#20
what happened to that conservative that voted his constituents wishes?
"A Conservative backbencher who accused his own party of muzzling its MPs says he has “great respect” for Prime Minister Stephen Harper, but believes parliamentarians’ freedom of speech is under threat." 'Rogue' Tory says he's loyal to Harper, but MP statements too controlled | CTV News
calling something a democracy and being a democracy might be two different things.
just because YOU don't see the strings...?
 

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