Could the world cope with the death of Abraham?


CDNBear
+3
#1  Top Rated Post
And the whole concept of religion and the significant impact of it on mankind.

That is to say, or ask rather. If a person or group, held in their possession, the absolute proof that the whole of the basis of Abrahamism is a fraud, could the world handle the news?
 
Ron in Regina
+1
#2
Huh. First (I admit freely) I had to google "Abrahamism" with the shortest
and simplest answer I could find: Abrahamic religions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Then I had to ask myself, "Would the world have a choice whether to handle the news
or not?"

Religion being based on faith, would it matter if absolute proof that the whole of the
basis of Abrahamism was a fraud? Would that change anything significantly?
Last edited by Ron in Regina; Sep 30th, 2012 at 11:24 AM..Reason: typo
 
B00Mer
#3
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBear View Post

And the whole concept of religion and the significant impact of it on mankind.

That is to say, or ask rather. If a person or group, held in their possession, the absolute proof that the whole of the basis of Abrahamism is a fraud, could the world handle the news?

Keep dreaming, but it would be nice..

[youtube]-Gxc0XEoQpQ[/youtube]
 
B00Mer
#4
Religulous - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Goober
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBear View Post

And the whole concept of religion and the significant impact of it on mankind.

That is to say, or ask rather. If a person or group, held in their possession, the absolute proof that the whole of the basis of Abrahamism is a fraud, could the world handle the news?

You should have added - What if it was proven that we have a Creator. How would that change the peoples views and actions.
 
CDNBear
+2
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by Ron in Regina View Post

Would that change anything significantly?

I believe so.

It is the basis of religion and law around the world.

Proving it to be a fraud, IMHO, would cause great upheaval.

Quote: Originally Posted by Goober View Post

You should have added - What if it was proven that we have a Creator. How would that change the peoples views and actions.

If that's what I wanted to gather opinion on, I would have.
 
Goober
+2
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBear View Post

I believe so.

It is the basis of religion and law around the world.

Proving it to be a fraud, IMHO, would cause great upheaval.

If that's what I wanted to gather opinion on, I would have.

Ok- I believe that we would see major civil strife- crime would rise- many people would change and not in a nice way.
 
B00Mer
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by Goober View Post

Ok- I believe that we would see major civil strife- crime would rise- many people would change and not in a nice way.

Sodom and Gomorrah... ??

Oh we already have that, it's called Las Vegas and Thailand.
 
Ron in Regina
+2
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBear View Post

I believe so.

It is the basis of religion and law around the world.

Proving it to be a fraud, IMHO, would cause great upheaval.

Proving it to be a fraud (an absolute fraud), vrs people's faith in what can't
be proven....wouldn't that just create room for justification in the religions
using different interpratation pulled from the same documents from
before the fraud was exposed?

Life going on as previously but with a sleight twist in the justification for
several billion, denial outright by a significant portion of the proof of a
fraud taking place, a few U.S. embassys in the Middle east (and a KFC
or McDonalds) being trashed.....and then it falling from the news cycle
for the most part within a few days or a week as something else comes
alone to distract the masses with our short attention spans?
 
SLM
+2
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBear View Post

And the whole concept of religion and the significant impact of it on mankind.

That is to say, or ask rather. If a person or group, held in their possession, the absolute proof that the whole of the basis of Abrahamism is a fraud, could the world handle the news?

Essentially you're talking about proving a negative, so how could that truth be proven?

I think as things stand right now, it is commonly understood that when one says "God exists" or "God doesn't exist", what's really being said is "I believe or I don't believe". Even if that's not what the person means who is saying it, that still is what is heard by others. Because what we hear is always going to be contingent upon what we believe to be true. Our internal information filter.

But for the sake of argument, let's say it could be proven. I think it would cause upheaval and be met with tremendous resistance. But it's a difficult thing to wrap your head around, this notion that you could prove to someone with a belief, a faith, something that completely contradicts their faith. I think we also have to take into account how much our culture & history is tied up with religious beliefs.
 
CDNBear
+1
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by Ron in Regina View Post

Proving it to be a fraud (an absolute fraud), vrs people's faith in what can't
be proven....wouldn't that just create room for justification in the religions
using different interpratation pulled from the same documents from
before the fraud was exposed?

Life going on as previously but with a sleight twist in the justification for
several billion, denial outright by a significant portion of the proof of a
fraud taking place, a few U.S. embassys in the Middle east (and a KFC
or McDonalds) being trashed.....and then it falling from the news cycle
for the most part within a few days or a week as something else comes
alone to distract the masses with our short attention spans?

So in other words, many wouldn't cope, they would just deny the proof and carry on in denial?

What about those that chose to avoid denial and take it all in?
 
Goober
+1
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBear View Post

So in other words, many wouldn't cope, they would just deny the proof and carry on in denial?

What about those that chose to avoid denial and take it all in?

One Philosopher stated that if man did not have religion we would have to invent it- Studies have shown the positives of religious beliefs – for those looking for a link – I suggest Google.
Religious beliefs affect our everyday interactions with people – from those we know to those we do not- charitable acts- obeying the law ( for the most part) and on and on.
 
CDNBear
+1
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by Goober View Post

One Philosopher stated that if man did not have religion we would have to invent it- Studies have shown the positives of religious beliefs – for those looking for a link – I suggest Google.
Religious beliefs affect our everyday interactions with people – from those we know to those we do not- charitable acts- obeying the law ( for the most part) and on and on.

Something lost on atheists, that are governed by the same things.
 
Goober
+1
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBear View Post

Something lost on atheists, that are governed by the same things.

The majority of the world’s population have a religious belief - Atheists are a minority- The question then would go back to how they were raised- If they became an Atheist after being exposed to a religious belief while growing up - It would still have an impact upon them. Some impact would be positive - some impact would be negative –

Also if they came from a family that were Atheist – How did they build their value system – From the parents –then were they exposed to religion-

How to separate their value system whether parts were or were not related to exposure to religion would be difficult.
 
CDNBear
+1
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by Goober View Post

The majority of the world’s population have a religious belief - Atheists are a minority- The question then would go back to how they were raised- If they became an Atheist after being exposed to a religious belief while growing up - It would still have an impact upon them. Some impact would be positive - some impact would be negative –

Also if they came from a family that were Atheist – How did they build their value system – From the parents –then were they exposed to religion-

Unless you were raised in a sterile bubble, one can not grow in this world, without being touched by religion of some form or another.

Quote:

How to separate their value system whether parts were or were not related to exposure to religion would be difficult.

Since the creation of Abrahamism, everyone has been touched by it, in one way shape or form.

Having it yanked out from those that adhere to one of the encompassed faiths, would/could be apocalyptic.
 
eh1eh
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by Goober View Post

The majority of the world’s population have a religious belief - Atheists are a minority- The question then would go back to how they were raised- If they became an Atheist after being exposed to a religious belief while growing up - It would still have an impact upon them. Some impact would be positive - some impact would be negative –

Also if they came from a family that were Atheist – How did they build their value system – From the parents –then were they exposed to religion-

How to separate their value system whether parts were or were not related to exposure to religion would be difficult.

So you say it's 'impossible' to have good moral values unless you 'believe' in unsubstantiated religious doctrines or were at least indoctrinated as a child?

I could tell you haw to build a moral value system without religion but I see you have been indoctrinated and would likely not accept any rational explanation.
 
CDNBear
+1
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by eh1eh View Post

So you say it's 'impossible' to have good moral values unless you 'believe' in unsubstantiated religious doctrines or were at least indoctrinated as a child?

No, he isn't saying that at all.At least that's not how I read it.

We are touched by religious values almost from day one. It's impossible to separate region from our daily lives. It surrounds us.

I have no doubt that as a people we could have eventually come to some form of peaceful (So to speak) existence, and understanding of our surroundings, but as bumpy and bloody as it was, religion managed to take us there already.
 
Niflmir
+1
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by SLM View Post

Essentially you're talking about proving a negative, so how could that truth be proven?

Please, don't hop on that bandwagon. There is no distinction in logic between positive and negative propositions. More generally, anytime you prove anything, you prove an infinite number of negatives. For some equations in mathematics, all you can ever prove is that no solution exists.

However, real facts don't have the comfortable veracity that mathematical facts have. If we can prove anything then we can prove that Abraham Lincolm wasn't a vampire hunter. If we can prove that we can just as easily proves that the Jews were never a slave class in Egypt. That is to say, Exodus never happened. If Exodus never happened then Moses was never wandering in the desert to receive the ten commandments. And on and on it goes.

Humans find ways to explain away uncomfortable facts. Like when my ex left me, clearly it wasn't my fault...
 
Goober
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by eh1eh View Post

So you say it's 'impossible' to have good moral values unless you 'believe' in unsubstantiated religious doctrines or were at least indoctrinated as a child?

I could tell you haw to build a moral value system without religion but I see you have been indoctrinated and would likely not accept any rational explanation.

Perhaps you should read my post again but from a neutral point of view.

No I did not say that- You would have to study people to determine their values - how they arrived at those values.

Indoctrinated - No- Have a belief in religion - Yes - Force it on others -No- I believe strongly in Free Will.
 
eh1eh
+2
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by Goober View Post

Perhaps you should read my post again but from a neutral point of view.

No I did not say that- You would have to study people to determine their values - how they arrived at those values.

Indoctrinated - No- Have a belief in religion - Yes - Force it on others -No- I believe strongly in Free Will.

Yes, I see how I miss read it. You asked, "Also if they came from a family that were Atheist – How did they build their value system – From the parents –then were they exposed to religion- " , but I see what you were getting at that even in an atheist environment religion is inescapable.
I learned a disdain for religion by attend church with my friends at a young age. My parents imparted no religious beliefs to me, only good moral values for the sake of it. So that makes your point in a round about way.


I believe there would be calamity in the world if the basis for 'religious belief' was proven wrong or nonexistent.
Only about one billion people on this planet would be relieved. And that would be contingent on how this was proven, for instance, some other entities revealing themselves to us could be disconcerting to anyone. For the record I don't mean UFOs per se, more like any other being that is superior to us.
 
Dexter Sinister
+2
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBear View Post

...the absolute proof that the whole of the basis of Abrahamism is a fraud, could the world handle the news?

I don't think absolute proof is possible, that obtains only in mathematics and it's still subject to assumptions and axioms--which are always specified--also being true. But we do have pretty good evidence that the Abrahamic religions are false. It has changed some things significantly, like the secular power the churches once had in the West. Much of the history of the last few centuries can be read as the churches retreating from making empirical claims about the nature of reality in the face of the scientific revolution, and that I would say comes mainly from an evidence-based improvement in our understanding of reality.

But fundamentally, I think the short answer to your question is that it really wouldn't make any difference. Religion is never going to go away. Mormonism, for instance, is clearly a transparent fraud, its origins are recent enough that we have documentary proof of that, yet there are still lots of Mormons, and I think their numbers are growing. I've personally seen people presented with utterly convincing evidence that something they believe to be true is not, but they continue to believe it, and not just on religious matters. People will believe what they want to believe, evidence will convince very few people to change their minds. There is, for instance, demonstrably absolutely no substance to astrology, homeopathy, dowsing, telepathy, telekinesis, Ouija boards, psi, tarot cards..ach, the list is endless, but you can find believers in all those things and more. As H. L. Mencken once remarked, the chief occupation of mankind is believing in the palpably untrue.
Last edited by Dexter Sinister; Sep 30th, 2012 at 02:24 PM..
 
gerryh
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBear View Post

And the whole concept of religion and the significant impact of it on mankind.

That is to say, or ask rather. If a person or group, held in their possession, the absolute proof that the whole of the basis of Abrahamism is a fraud, could the world handle the news?


Ok, you're gonna have to be more forth coming with information. What kind of "proof" do you mean?
 
CDNBear
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh View Post

Ok, you're gonna have to be more forth coming with information. What kind of "proof" do you mean?

Dude, really?

Proof, like aliens coming down and telling us we were a genetic experiment, combining their DNA with that of monkeys. I don't know dude, it was just a question.
 
darkbeaver
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBear View Post

And the whole concept of religion and the significant impact of it on mankind.

That is to say, or ask rather. If a person or group, held in their possession, the absolute proof that the whole of the basis of Abrahamism is a fraud, could the world handle the news?

Proof of the fraud has existed since shortly after the Rosetta stone was deciphered. Every bit of it was lifted from much older traditions.
 
gerryh
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBear View Post

Dude, really?

Proof, like aliens coming down and telling us we were a genetic experiment, combining their DNA with that of monkeys. I don't know dude, it was just a question.


Sorry, but just proving that some numbnuts way back when got the dudes name wrong isn't proof of squat. Therefore I would still be believing in God and Christ.

For this to be a viable question with viable answers, more information is needed.

Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaver View Post

Proof of the fraud has existed since shortly after the Rosetta stone was deciphered. Every bit of it was lifted from much older traditions.


Doesn't make it a fraud.
 
Goober
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter Sinister View Post

But fundamentally, I think the short answer to your question is that it really wouldn't make any difference. Religion is never going to go away.

Your opinion I think is biased - Religion has had a major impact on many people- whether you consider belief in a religion to be akin to Luke Skywalker - the impact on society and how people interact has and is immense.
 
CDNBear
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaver View Post

Proof of the fraud has existed since shortly after the Rosetta stone was deciphered. Every bit of it was lifted from much older traditions.

Thanks for your input pumpkin. Now back to your bong water consumption.

Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh View Post

Sorry, but just proving that some numbnuts way back when got the dudes name wrong isn't proof of squat. Therefore I would still be believing in God and Christ.

For this to be a viable question with viable answers, more information is needed.

Whatever works for you dude.
 
TenPenny
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh View Post

Sorry, but just proving that some numbnuts way back when got the dudes name wrong isn't proof of squat. Therefore I would still be believing in God and Christ.

For this to be a viable question with viable answers, more information is needed.

\\

Indeed, many people will believe no matter what, so it makes the whole argument pointless.

Believe if you want, don't believe if you want, it makes no difference.
 
CDNBear
+1
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by TenPenny View Post

Indeed, many people will believe no matter what, so it makes the whole argument pointless.

You know what, you're absolutely right...

Andem, that's a wrap, shut it down.

The argument is pointless.

 
Cliffy
#30
I think the trend is toward an end to beliefs in unsubstantiated evidence/stories/etc. but we probably can expect that day to be far off in the future, considering that humanity has not evolved spiritually much since the good ol' cave days.
 

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