Fraser Institute says H.S.T. will benefit low and middle income earners.


JLM
No Party Affiliation
#1
Is that accurate?
 
Cliffy
Free Thinker
#2
Fraser Institute is a right wing think tank that advises the Campbell government. What would you expect from those clowns?
 
JLM
No Party Affiliation
#3
Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy View Post

Fraser Institute is a right wing think tank that advises the Campbell government. What would you expect from those clowns?

I realize that, but I'm not absolutely certain they are incorrect about that finding. (In other words you can be an A$$hole but still be right)
 
petros
#4
How the hell do more taxes benefit anyone?
 
JLM
No Party Affiliation
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by petros View Post

How the hell do more taxes benefit anyone?

They don't but my understanding is they are trading off some you see for some you don't see. I'm in the dark, would just like to see what the truth is.

Apparently one of the offsets is higher income exemption on the income tax.
 
petros
#6
Would they really do it if you paid less?
 
JLM
No Party Affiliation
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by petros View Post

Would they really do it if you paid less?

Certainly not as a rule, but the big money people are paying more and I'm not sure how it affects the corporations. I'm just hoping (probably futilely) that it might close the income gap.
 
VanIsle
#8
Today's news is calling for more MLA's to resign because of the implimentation of the HST. What they said is, if 6 more resign, the BC Liberals will then be in a minority government rather than a majority. Some MLA's are upset because there are considerably more votes against the HST then there was for them on voting day. They feel this is a good indicator of voter interest and confidence. The boat's a rockin' and it's beginning to look like Campbell could fall overboard.
 
petros
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by JLM View Post

Certainly not as a rule, but the big money people are paying more and I'm not sure how it affects the corporations. I'm just hoping (probably futilely) that it might close the income gap.

If corporation gets an edge then you, being a corporation may as well go ahead and take advantage of it.
 
Avro
No Party Affiliation
#10
Don't believe the anti-HST rhetoric

On July 1, B.C. and Ontario will merge their provincial sales tax (PST) with the federal Goods and Services Tax (GST) creating a single harmonized sales tax (HST) -- 12% in B.C. and 13% in Ontario. Unfortunately, the prospect of harmonization has been met with public discontent due to misinformation being spread by those who oppose the reform and want to derail it. Canadians mustn't believe the anti-HST hype. The economic case for the HST is ironclad.
To understand why the move to an HST is beneficial, it is important to highlight the problem with the PST: It applies to business inputs in addition to many of the goods and services that consumers buy. When businesses are charged PST on production supplies and capital inputs such as machinery, production costs increase and these increased costs are largely passed on to consumers in the form of higher prices. In many cases, a product can be taxed multiple times before it is taxed one last time when purchased by the final consumer.
Even goods and services that are currently exempt from the PST in both provinces contain embedded PST, since service providers pay PST on many inputs they purchase including machinery, computers, office equipment and supplies.
The HST, on the other hand, is a "value added tax" like the federal GST: Only the value added by the business selling the good or service is taxed. In other words, all business inputs are exempt from the HST. Under the HST, businesses will receive refunds for the sales tax they pay on inputs.
Past experience with harmonization in Canada shows that competitive pressures will cause businesses to largely pass these savings on to consumers through lower prices.
In 1997, Newfoundland, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia harmonized their PST with the federal GST. University of Toronto professor Michael Smart examined the effects and found that overall consumer prices in the harmonizing provinces actually fell after the 1997 reforms.
Harmonization will not only reduce prices, but also the costs of business investment. Since the PST applies to business inputs, including much of the machinery and technology firms purchase, it discourages business investment. By eliminating the PST on inputs, the HST will spark more business investment and development.
Here again past experience with sales tax harmonization in Canada is telling. After the three Atlantic provinces harmonized their PST with the federal GST in 1997, professor Smart found that investment in machinery and equipment rose by more than 12% in these provinces compared to the non-harmonized provinces.
With more investment and business development, British Columbians and Ontarians stand to gain higher wages and more job opportunities. For instance, University of Calgary professor Jack Mintz estimates that harmonization will account for a net increase of 113,000 and 591,000 jobs in B.C. and Ontario, respectively, over 10 years.
Finally, Canada's competitiveness will be improved with B.C. and Ontario's move to an HST, since businesses that export goods will see their prices become more competitive relative to businesses operating in other provinces and countries without sales taxes on inputs. Improving Ontario's competitiveness is especially important given the blow to the manufacturing sector from the recent recession.
To recoup the lost revenue from refunding the tax paid on business inputs, the HST will apply to a wider array of goods and services than the PST. Broadening the tax base this way ensures that more goods and services will be treated fairly, meaning the HST will produce a more uniform tax burden on all forms of consumption of goods and services.
Opponentsofharmonizationclaim that the elimination of sales taxes on business inputs and the expansion of the sales tax base would result in a shift of the tax burden from business to individuals. However, such a view ignores that the ultimate burden of all taxes falls on people in the form of higher prices, lower wages, or reduced rates of return.
Moreover, both B.C. and Ontario are implementing several initiatives concurrently with the HST to offset the total additional amount of sales tax paid. This makes harmonization revenue neutral for government.
British Columbians and Ontarians would do well to ignore the anti-HST rhetoric. The HST is a significantly more efficient sales tax system that will improve the investment climates in both provinces and ultimately benefit Canadians through more opportunities, higher rates of economic growth and increased prosperity. The three remaining non-harmonized provinces, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Prince Edward Island, should follow suit.

National Post
 
Liberalman
Free Thinker
#11
The provincial government can have the same deductions as in the PST by people sending in their recipts at tax time.

The provincial governments can also lower the PST part of the HST
 
JLM
No Party Affiliation
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by VanIsle View Post

Today's news is calling for more MLA's to resign because of the implimentation of the HST. What they said is, if 6 more resign, the BC Liberals will then be in a minority government rather than a majority. Some MLA's are upset because there are considerably more votes against the HST then there was for them on voting day. They feel this is a good indicator of voter interest and confidence. The boat's a rockin' and it's beginning to look like Campbell could fall overboard.

Sometimes you want to be careful what you wish for. Being an A$$hole doesn't preclude a person from being right once in a blue moon.
 
VanIsle
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by JLM View Post

Is that accurate?

Hot off the press JLM:



The average B.C. household could take a hit of $521 to its bottom line next year as a result of the harmonized sales tax, according to a model prepared for the Victoria Times Colonist by Statistics Canada.
Read full story>
 
JLM
No Party Affiliation
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by VanIsle View Post

Hot off the press JLM:



The average B.C. household could take a hit of $521 to its bottom line next year as a result of the harmonized sales tax, according to a model prepared for the Victoria Times Colonist by Statistics Canada.
Read full story>

OK ,that is a little different from what Fraser Institute tells us but even so the poor and destitute seem to be better off. So perhaps it does close the income gap a bit. Now we need a third opinion.
 
DurkaDurka
No Party Affiliation
#15
I have a hard time believing anyone who tries to sell a tax as being beneficial. The Ontario government is basically giving people money so they shut up and forget that they are going to get fleeced in the future.
 
Cliffy
Free Thinker
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by DurkaDurka View Post

I have a hard time believing anyone who tries to sell a tax as being beneficial. The Ontario government is basically giving people money so they shut up and forget that they are going to get fleeced in the future.

You can bet if the government is selling a tax, you had better stock up on Vaseline.
 
Praxius
Free Thinker
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by JLM View Post

Is that accurate?

No it's not.... speaking as a Nova Scotian, whom were one of the first to be tricked into getting the HST tossed onto all our products of sale by the Liberals.

At the time, Nova Scotians were complaining about the high taxes being paid onto the more important things in life, like heating, etc. At the time there was a 7% GST and an 11% PST tax. Some things had one or the other, while there were other things that had both taxes applied to them, which rather then one thing being 7% additional tax or 11%..... they had 18% total tax on top of what you were buying.

So the Liberals said it'd be a good idea to merge the two into a lower % tax of 15%.

However they forgot to mention until after the fact, that everything that was just 7% or 11% taxed..... were all now 15% taxed.

So while we were spared 3% tax off of the things already having GST & PST applied to them..... even more..... countless more products suddenly jumped in tax.... between 4%-8% more.

So while they played it as though they were saving Nova Scotian's money on taxes, they in turn ended up sucking even more taxes overall from us.

All with a smile.

If that's what the Fraser Institute believes, then they're fk'n high on opium and need to put down the pipe.

Quote: Originally Posted by Avro View Post

Don't believe the anti-HST rhetoric.....

Yeah ok.... don't believe someone who's already been living with HST for years now and knows first hand what happens in such an environment.... but believe someone who spouts off a copy/paste of some report, who hasn't even lived with the HST yet who doesn't even bother to see it for what it truly is.

Everything in the above report is almost identical to the same argument given to justify us having the HST tossed onto us.

It's pretty much one of the main reasons why the Liberals haven't lead Nova Scotia in like forever.

The HST is simply not beneficial for low and middle income earners, because more of the products they purchase that usually only have one or the other tax on, will now spike with more taxes on those products and any meager savings giving on the GST/PST products converting to HST, will be lost when covering these products that originally only had one tax or the other..... in fact, you will end up spending even more taxes per year then ever before.

Quote:

In 1997, Newfoundland, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia harmonized their PST with the federal GST.



^ That doesn't mean we did the right thing, nor does it justify continuing to expand the HST when clearly nobody is looking at the results that occurred here when we did.

By the way.... the term HST (Harmonized Sales Tax) replaced the old term BST (Blended Sales Tax) after it was discovered that most people in the Maritimes were referring to the BST as the "Bullsh*t Tax"
 
FiveParadox
Liberal
#18
As much as it may seem unpalatable (as does any discussion of a potential tax increase), the harmonised sales tax is absolutely an essential component of keeping British Columbia competitive. The Honourable Gordon Campbell M.L.A. ( Vancouver—Point Grey ), the Premier of British Columbia , indeed made some political miscalculations by keeping this part of its agenda so low-key during the electoral campaign; however, it remains the correct decision. Let’s remember that business of all sizes are going to benefit greatly from these reduced costs to equipment, while the rest of us are impacted minimally by these changes in the short-term, and will ultimately benefit from the savings that these business are going to experience.
 
TenPenny
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by Praxius View Post

However they forgot to mention until after the fact, that everything that was just 7% or 11% taxed..... were all now 15% taxed.

If you missed that at the time, it's purely your fault. It most certainly was talked about at the time, at least in NB. Same as just recently in Ontario - there were websties where peopel could see how the tax rates would change on vairous items. And in ONtario, under the HST, there are some things that still have GST only. It's far more complicated than the HST scheme we have.
 
DurkaDurka
No Party Affiliation
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by FiveParadox View Post

As much as it may seem unpalatable (as does any discussion of a potential tax increase), the harmonised sales tax is absolutely an essential component of keeping British Columbia competitive. The Honourable Gordon Campbell M.L.A. ( Vancouver—Point Grey ), the Premier of British Columbia , indeed made some political miscalculations by keeping this part of its agenda so low-key during the electoral campaign; however, it remains the correct decision. Let’s remember that business of all sizes are going to benefit greatly from these reduced costs to equipment, while the rest of us are impacted minimally by these changes in the short-term, and will ultimately benefit from the savings that these business are going to experience.

Do you believe every single thing the government tells you? If you think you are going to gain from this long run due to businesses passing on lower costs to consumer, you're nuts. Businesses will just keep the difference.
 
FiveParadox
Liberal
#21
DurkaDurka , it’s not quite as simple as “taxes bad [foam at mouth]”.
 
DurkaDurka
No Party Affiliation
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by FiveParadox View Post

DurkaDurka , it’s not quite as simple as “taxes bad [foam at mouth]”.

Show me something to back up "ultimately benefit from the savings that these business are going to experience."

I have never heard of a business passing on tax savings to the consumer, it's more profit to them.

[gags at your unconditional love for all things government]
 
FiveParadox
Liberal
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by DurkaDurka View Post

Show me something to back up "ultimately benefit from the savings that these business are going to experience."

I have never heard of a business passing on tax savings to the consumer, it's more profit to them.

Here ’s one such example.

Quote: Originally Posted by DurkaDurka View Post

[gags at your unconditional love for all things government]

I do not support Her Majesty’s Government for British Columbia , but nice try.
 
DurkaDurka
No Party Affiliation
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by FiveParadox View Post

Here ’s one such example.

"plans to pass on lower prices to customers after the new tax becomes law July 1."

One company so far, if 90% of the businesses in total, benefiting from this tax change choose to do the same, maybe then you can claim this is a benefit for consumers.


Quote:

I do not support Her Majesty’s Government for British Columbia , but nice try.

A liberal you don't like? That's unheard of.
 
Cliffy
Free Thinker
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by DurkaDurka View Post


A liberal you don't like? That's unheard of.

Liberal in name only. They are Social Credit in liberal clothing. Gordo is as right wing as they come. His hero is the Govenator.
 
lone wolf
Free Thinker
#26
From a bottom-feeder's perspective, my gas goes up, my hydro goes up, my groceries go up, my car insurance goes up - and my ODSP falls farther behind.
 
SirJosephPorter
No Party Affiliation
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by VanIsle View Post

Today's news is calling for more MLA's to resign because of the implimentation of the HST. What they said is, if 6 more resign, the BC Liberals will then be in a minority government rather than a majority. Some MLA's are upset because there are considerably more votes against the HST then there was for them on voting day. They feel this is a good indicator of voter interest and confidence. The boat's a rockin' and it's beginning to look like Campbell could fall overboard.

Maybe so, but if his government falls and if he runs on the harmonization platform, do you think he will be reelected?

Quote: Originally Posted by FiveParadox View Post

As much as it may seem unpalatable (as does any discussion of a potential tax increase), the harmonised sales tax is absolutely an essential component of keeping British Columbia competitive. The Honourable Gordon Campbell M.L.A. ( Vancouver—Point Grey ), the Premier of British Columbia , indeed made some political miscalculations by keeping this part of its agenda so low-key during the electoral campaign; however, it remains the correct decision.

Perhaps it was necessary to keep it low key in order to get a majority. I remember Mulroney had introduction of GST in his platform, but he kept it very low key. The election was about free trade and hardly anybody talked about the GST.

A politician does whatever is necessary to get elected.

Quote: Originally Posted by TenPenny View Post

If you missed that at the time, it's purely your fault. It most certainly was talked about at the time, at least in NB. Same as just recently in Ontario - there were websties where peopel could see how the tax rates would change on vairous items. And in ONtario, under the HST, there are some things that still have GST only. It's far more complicated than the HST scheme we have.

There is hardly any opposition in Ontario. If asked, people probably will say they are against it, but there is no strong sentiment against it. Perhaps one reason is that if anybody was going to organize the opposition, it would be the opposition party, which is the Conservative Party. But seeing that Conservatives in Ottawa support it so strongly, Conservatives here in Ontario cannot really oppose it tooth and nail.
 
JLM
No Party Affiliation
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by DurkaDurka View Post

Show me something to back up "ultimately benefit from the savings that these business are going to experience."

I have never heard of a business passing on tax savings to the consumer, it's more profit to them.

[gags at your unconditional love for all things government]

Well I have- If you have a business and every employee is sitting on their A$$ along with all the other business, you know damn well one of them is going to start paring prices to get an edge. The restaurant business especially in summer will be cut throat.
 
DurkaDurka
No Party Affiliation
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by JLM View Post

Well I have- If you have a business and every employee is sitting on their A$$ along with all the other business, you know damn well one of them is going to start paring prices to get an edge. The restaurant business especially in summer will be cut throat.

Maybe I cynical about this but how often do you see business lower prices across the board for consumers? I think it the business is solid, this tax change will just make their accounting simpler, for the consumer the benefits are negligible.
 
Avro
No Party Affiliation
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by Praxius View Post



Yeah ok.... don't believe someone who's already been living with HST for years now and knows first hand what happens in such an environment.... but believe someone who spouts off a copy/paste of some report, who hasn't even lived with the HST yet who doesn't even bother to see it for what it truly is.

Everything in the above report is almost identical to the same argument given to justify us having the HST tossed onto us.

It's pretty much one of the main reasons why the Liberals haven't lead Nova Scotia in like forever.

The HST is simply not beneficial for low and middle income earners, because more of the products they purchase that usually only have one or the other tax on, will now spike with more taxes on those products and any meager savings giving on the GST/PST products converting to HST, will be lost when covering these products that originally only had one tax or the other..... in fact, you will end up spending even more taxes per year then ever before.



^ That doesn't mean we did the right thing, nor does it justify continuing to expand the HST when clearly nobody is looking at the results that occurred here when we did.

By the way.... the term HST (Harmonized Sales Tax) replaced the old term BST (Blended Sales Tax) after it was discovered that most people in the Maritimes were referring to the BST as the "Bullsh*t Tax"
[/COLOR]

Before you critique the article I posted perhaps you should actually read it.

Don't believe me though, someone who actually runs a buisness and charges the sales tax.
 

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