Reality lost in big pipeline debate


dumpthemonarchy
#1
Francis makes some good points. Like ALberta has to pay a "transmission royalty" for transporting oil across BC in the samw ay a royalty is paid when electricity is sent along transmission towers. I never heard about sending Chinese workers to build it-that will kill it. Old time capitalism, just like the railroad that brought BC into Confederaiton.

There's been no comment about only high quality tankers transporting the oil, not crap tranp steamers from third world countries. They could easily be tossed during a major storm and make a big mess.


Reality lost in big pipeline debate




Reality lost in big pipeline debate

Ben Nelms, Reuters Files
Demonstrators protest against building oil pipelines in B.C., outside Enbridge offices in Vancouver last month. The approval of First Nations is absolutely necessary for Northern Gateway to move forward.




Diane Francis, Financial Post ∑ Apr. 7, 2012 | Last Updated: Apr. 7, 2012 3:11 AM ET

Talk recently about the possibility of Chinese workers building a pipeline through British Columbia threatens the project's future more than does any statements by First Nations leaders, Robert Redford, Greens or New Democrats.

It's also an indication that the private sector does not get it. The pipeline will only be built if Albertans, British Columbians and B.C. First Nations make a deal.

This must be an Alberta-B.C. negotiation. This is not about the federal government or regulators. And there's no room for foreigners or those financed by them such as Greenpeace, the Sierra Club or groups that are fronts from rival oil producers in Venezuela, Saudi Arabia or Russia. It's apparent to me that some opaque "environmental groups" don't disclose their donors or real agendas and have targeted Canada's oil sands. I have written about ending foreign intervention in the regulatory process and foreigners are being excluded. This is not about what companies and their foreign customers want to do. Here is the playbook for a deal:
1. A pipeline through B.C.'s pristine territory must be built and operated with a minimum of environmental impact. The pipeline should be buried, have sensors all along and lands post-construction should be returned to their original state. This pipeline should be leak proof. If such safeguards add $5 or more to the cost of a barrel, then so be it.

2. British Columbians must share in the profits from this Alberta oil in the form of a "transmission royalty." In electricity transmission, these are called "wheeling" fees or money paid to jurisdictions for the inconvenience, disruption and potential dangers inherent in running powers lines through their territory.

3. The First Nations' situation is a mess in B.C., thanks to the provincial and federal governments. This won't be sorted out for decades, so generous First Nations' royalties, equivalent to similar settlements, should be placed in trust for eventual distribution to valid claimants. In addition, First Nations should have the right of first refusal on all jobs and supplier contracts involving these schemes.

4. The Canadian coast guard must supervise all foreign ships picking up or delivering oil in Canadian waters or ports and foreign ships must meet strict safety and integrity standards. The spectre of crews from developing nations in rusty vessels taking huge amounts of oil along British Columbia's coast and channel is frightening and unacceptable. The costs of supervision and inspection must be paid for by the sellers/ buyers of the oil. This would consist of full-time inspectors to make sure everything, and everyone, is ship-shape. This is simply a prudent requirement that will, hopefully, insure that there will never be a Valdez event.

5. The oil port operations must also be supervised, at customer expense not taxpayer expense, to prevent dockside or loading spills like the one in China two years ago that released huge amounts of oil in a large port.

6. Railway transport of oil sands to the coast must be optimized with the same constraints: Government onboard inspectors must be there at all times to eliminate risk-taking, incompetence or unsafe practices. Rail port and shipping must be Canadian owned, operated and strictly regulated by government officials at customer expense.

Making British Columbians partners with Albertans in the oil sands will prevent interest groups or political aspirants from holding projects hostage. It's also the correct way to proceed. But there is no guarantee of success.

The oil sector may take a hard line and not share their profits. So may Alberta. The feds may try to force the project. This will simply help the New Democrats win the B.C. election and turn the issue into political theatre that will last for years.

Unless the two provinces get their acts together, the best bet is to push oil sands production by rail and through existing pipelines to the U.S. Then in the fall, the U.S. election will be held and either way, the Keystone XL pipeline will be approved along an altered route. President Barack Obama postponed it because of politics. Two years before, he approved a bigger oil sands line than Keystone to the U.S. Midwest.

But the pipeline through British Columbia won't happen until there is a dramatic shift in attitude. Albertans must show respect and pay royalties to the people of British Columbia in return for the environmental risk and access they are being asked to give.
The days when decisions about building infrastructure of strategic importance could be left up to the private sector, or imposed by a government, are long gone in democracies like this one.
 
TenPenny
+3
#2  Top Rated Post
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchy View Post

6. Railway transport of oil sands to the coast must be optimized with the same constraints: Government onboard inspectors must be there at all times to eliminate risk-taking, incompetence or unsafe practices. Rail port and shipping must be Canadian owned, operated and strictly regulated by government officials at customer expense.

So, you'll want to hire thousands of civil servants to sit in locomotives for 12 hours a day, reading novels, meanwhile you'll ask the railroads to redesign the cabs so that there's room for a highly paid civil servant to sit with them. All for nothing.

Wow.
 
Kakato
#3
royalties for transmitting power? Power gos both ways on the alta/bc grid,depends on who needs it more.Since deregulation its the power transmission companies that make the money,not the govt.
 
Liberalman
#4
Quote: Originally Posted by Kakato View Post

royalties for transmitting power? Power gos both ways on the alta/bc grid,depends on who needs it more.Since deregulation its the power transmission companies that make the money,not the govt.

The pipeline will go though BC land and they will charge whatever they want
 
petros
+1
#5



I Will Stop the Train - Chief Piapot 1888


What time does the Continental pull in?
Last edited by petros; Apr 11th, 2012 at 08:49 AM..
 
Cliffy
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by petros View Post

I Will Stop the Train - Chief Piapot 1888

What time does the Continental pull in?

I don't think there were any native lawyers in 1888. Now there are many, and they know how to use the system against the government. If they want to, and I think they do, they can stop this thing. I hope they do. This si the biggest environmental tragedy in the making since the tar sands and will not bode well for BC or the aboriginal people. We don't need more oil and we don't need this dinosaur technology any more. If we get this crap shoved down our throats, there will be hell to pay in the woods. If you think you have seen eco terrorists in the past, you have seen nothing yet baby. People are going to die over this crap.
 
petros
+2
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy View Post

I don't think there were any native lawyers in 1888. Now there are many, and they know how to use the system against the government. If they want to, and I think they do, they can stop this thing. I hope they do. This si the biggest environmental tragedy in the making since the tar sands and will not bode well for BC or the aboriginal people. We don't need more oil and we don't need this dinosaur technology any more. If we get this crap shoved down our throats, there will be hell to pay in the woods. If you think you have seen eco terrorists in the past, you have seen nothing yet baby. People are going to die over this crap.

You've never heard of a guy named Riel? He knew the law inside out and backwards.
 
Cliffy
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by petros View Post

You've never heard of an MP named Riel? He knew the law inside out and backwards.

Yup. Have you ever heard of the warrior society?
 
petros
#9
Yup. They better get their asses on the bus. It's a long haul from ON to Northern BC. Ooops that would mean burning diesel and using modern tech. You can't be "green" and use modern tech at the same time.

You're a proud Apple owner. Is it blood mineral free?
 
Cliffy
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by petros View Post

Yup. They better get their asses on the bus. It's a long haul from ON to Northern BC. Ooops that would mean burning diesel and using modern tech. You can't be "green" and use modern tech at the same time.

You're a proud Apple owner. Is it blood mineral free?

I know the ol' Mac isn't blood free. It is on it's last legs and will not be replaced. I'm looking to move off grid this summer (hopefully). Going back underground away from the insanity. We'll see how this plays out.
 
petros
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy View Post

I know the ol' Mac isn't blood free. It is on it's last legs and will not be replaced. I'm looking to move off grid this summer (hopefully). Going back underground away from the insanity. We'll see how this plays out.

You're going to leave everything behind including metal tools and modern clothing?
 
Cliffy
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by petros View Post

You're going to leave everything behind including metal tools and modern clothing?

Why would I give up what I already have? I'm not going back to the stone age, I'm just getting away from the insanity. I may be crazy but I ain't stupid.
 
petros
#13
Then you can't complain about others who do not wish to give up any of the conveniences that our lifestyle has to offer.
 
Cliffy
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by petros View Post

Then you can't complain about others who do not wish to give up any of the conveniences that our lifestyle has to offer.

Have you heard me do that? People who want to live a lifestyle that destroys our life support system can go ahead and kill themselves slowly. I don't care. I won't live long enough to have to bury them.
 
petros
#15
You just did and nobody is "killing themselves slowly".
 
Cliffy
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by petros View Post

You just did and nobody is "killing themselves slowly".

The human race is destroying its life support system and has been since the industrial revolution. We have become slaves to our modern conveniences: Slavery through Debt. People are having to work more for their conveniences, go farther into debt and destroy a lot of other life forms in the process. We have been hacking the Web of Life to pieces in our egotistical drive to prove we are at the top of the food chain. Well, we ain't as smart as we think we are and our egos are in for a rude awakening.
 
petros
+2
#17
Nobody "has to" do anything. It's all on their own free will and accord. Life isn't ending Cliffy. When stressed it only diversifies.
 
dumpthemonarchy
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by Kakato View Post

royalties for transmitting power? Power gos both ways on the alta/bc grid,depends on who needs it more.Since deregulation its the power transmission companies that make the money,not the govt.

The local Vancouver newspapers have written nothing about how much BC will make from the pipeline. I have no idea how much these fees are or could be.

Energy compnaies are making the money, but they have a lot of costs to take care of here before the general public believes them. The public doesn't want rustbucket ships taking on oil and then going through long inlets before they hit the open ocean. They've said nothing about this.
 
Kakato
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by Liberalman View Post

The pipeline will go though BC land and they will charge whatever they want


I dont think so bud,it doesnt work that way,the owner operator of the line charges what he wants,the govt may get a some money but thats usally from granting them the right of way.
Same as power,except it can go both ways from Alta to BC. so you cant compare a pipeline to a powerline.
Now as for right of ways it's a funny thing,the land is literally sold but can be taken back,the govt' or landowner gets the fair market value for the land used and lots of time it is put back so it can be used again as they do with farmers.
 
Cliffy
#20
What they don't tell you is that every pipeline leaks. Some have hundreds of leaks and they never bother to clean them up. That is what people are fighting about, that and oil leaks and disasters at sea. This pipeline is going through some pretty pristine wilderness and will screw it up for many generations to come. If the companies would come clean on the issues instead of trying to snow people with BS, there may not be so much animosity. But that is not the way Big Gas works. It divides and conquers with payola and heavy handed tactics, not to mention a few "suicides" of key players. People are not as stupid as the corps and government would like to think. There is going to be Sh!t to pay if this goes through. I would not want to be out there on the front lines when it hits the fan. Of course, the CEOs will be nowhere to be seen, just some poor Joe Blow trying to feed his family. This situation is one Big Cluster Phuk.
 
petros
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy View Post

What they don't tell you is that every pipeline leaks. Some have hundreds of leaks and they never bother to clean them up. That is what people are fighting about, that and oil leaks and disasters at sea. This pipeline is going through some pretty pristine wilderness and will screw it up for many generations to come. If the companies would come clean on the issues instead of trying to snow people with BS, there may not be so much animosity. But that is not the way Big Gas works. It divides and conquers with payola and heavy handed tactics, not to mention a few "suicides" of key players. People are not as stupid as the corps and government would like to think. There is going to be Sh!t to pay if this goes through. I would not want to be out there on the front lines when it hits the fan. Of course, the CEOs will be nowhere to be seen, just some poor Joe Blow trying to feed his family. This situation is one Big Cluster Phuk.

Every pipeline? Pristine wilderness? Right beside the rail line and it's pristine?
 
Cliffy
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by petros View Post

Every pipeline? Pristine wilderness? Right beside the rail line and it's pristine?

I'm going by the word of a friend who has worked in most of the area the line is going through. If the line is following a rail line, why build it at all?

I cannot find a map of the pipeline and how it relates to existing rail lines.
 
petros
#23
Pipelines and material used in them have come a loooooong way over the past 20 years. The guys welding them are the best of the best, if they aren't they don't last. Even the slightest of flaws in a weld will be rejected these days. Ask CDNear. He'll fill you in on details of the high standards on today's lines.
 
skookumchuck
+1
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy View Post

I don't think there were any native lawyers in 1888. Now there are many, and they know how to use the system against the government. If they want to, and I think they do, they can stop this thing. I hope they do. This si the biggest environmental tragedy in the making since the tar sands and will not bode well for BC or the aboriginal people. We don't need more oil and we don't need this dinosaur technology any more. If we get this crap shoved down our throats, there will be hell to pay in the woods. If you think you have seen eco terrorists in the past, you have seen nothing yet baby. People are going to die over this crap.


In north america eco terrorists have only ever had to go up against corporate infrastructure and "investigators" hamstrung by the law and video cameras.
Would love to watch some of these outmanned and outgunned eco warriors do their chit around some of the compounds in Idaho or Montana, just for example. Those tame kittens have no clue as to what could be waiting........
 
taxslave
+1
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by skookumchuck View Post

In north america eco terrorists have only ever had to go up against corporate infrastructure and "investigators" hamstrung by the law and video cameras.
Would love to watch some of these outmanned and outgunned eco warriors do their chit around some of the compounds in Idaho or Montana, just for example. Those tame kittens have no clue as to what could be waiting........

You really thing the ecoterrorists would go somewhere it isn't safe and there is no Starbucks?
 
petros
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by skookumchuck View Post

In north america eco terrorists have only ever had to go up against corporate infrastructure and "investigators" hamstrung by the law and video cameras.
Would love to watch some of these outmanned and outgunned eco warriors do their chit around some of the compounds in Idaho or Montana, just for example. Those tame kittens have no clue as to what could be waiting........

Damn straight skookumchuck!
DHS (Homeland Security) just announced today they are forming Environmental Justice Units.

The Green Police are coming for YOU!

http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/mgmt/dhs-environmental-justice-strategy.pdf
 
skookumchuck
+1
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslave View Post

You really thing the ecoterrorists would go somewhere it isn't safe and there is no Starbucks?

It would provide much more entertainment than listening to them brag like heroes on the net if they would. Ordinary folk will one day get tired of lawfare.

Quote: Originally Posted by petros View Post

Damn straight skookumchuck!
DHS (Homeland Security) just announced today they are forming Environmental Justice Units.

The Green Police are coming for YOU!

http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/mgmt/dhs-environmental-justice-strategy.pdf

Haha! Bafflegab, it will take many years to come close to implementing. It takes a few rednecks only minutes
 
taxslave
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by skookumchuck View Post

It would provide much more entertainment than listening to them brag like heroes on the net if they would. Ordinary folk will one day get tired of lawfare.



Haha! Bafflegab, it will take many years to come close to implementing. It takes a few rednecks only minutes

I went through the wars in the woods. Only reason the terrorists never got killed is because few loggers ever lost a days pay when some welfare bum was hanging in a tree or tied to a bridge.
 
skookumchuck
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslave View Post

I went through the wars in the woods. Only reason the terrorists never got killed is because few loggers ever lost a days pay when some welfare bum was hanging in a tree or tied to a bridge.

Do you remember here in BC when the bunny huggers tried to screw an outfitters hunts? Blowing whistles, grabbing the reins of a lady's horse. They only tried it once then went back to their welfare checks with their tails betwixt their legs because some guides "accidentally" stumbled into their camp one night........
That used to be how i made my living, as an outfitter, damn guides, you just can't civilize them boogers!
 
Kakato
+2
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy View Post

What they don't tell you is that every pipeline leaks. Some have hundreds of leaks and they never bother to clean them up. That is what people are fighting about, that and oil leaks and disasters at sea. This pipeline is going through some pretty pristine wilderness and will screw it up for many generations to come. If the companies would come clean on the issues instead of trying to snow people with BS, there may not be so much animosity. But that is not the way Big Gas works. It divides and conquers with payola and heavy handed tactics, not to mention a few "suicides" of key players. People are not as stupid as the corps and government would like to think. There is going to be Sh!t to pay if this goes through. I would not want to be out there on the front lines when it hits the fan. Of course, the CEOs will be nowhere to be seen, just some poor Joe Blow trying to feed his family. This situation is one Big Cluster Phuk.

Thats odd,you would think with the thousands of miles of pipeline I have worked on I have never seen one leak and even as my short time as a pipeline inspector....still never saw any failures and not once did my gas monitor go off which I take everywhere.
Pipeline welds are all xrayed and have to pass strict QA tests or that welder wont be working in the patch for long.
One other thing I have noticed is lots of pipeline inspectors were welders at one time.
My whole community lies downwind from one of the worlds most poisonous h2s fields,there has never been any incidents in the 35 years I remember.
 

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