No proof that private sector works, but lots of proof it doesn't


sejenny
#1
With all the fiasco in the fiscal world with there precious open market, you'd think our gorvnr. would realize that its openning the door to corruption. Market has to be controled and any base utility should be regulated by the elected government.(oil, food, energy, environement) Any time they let the private sector in, we always see an explosion in prices. Then we are expected to bail them out,,,,,, why????? Anybody buying food for a family in Canada will quickly realize that something is wrong when you pay more at the grocery store than at the restaurant. Even then, our minister of finance wants to privatize our CPP.

All they need to do is taxes everybody equally, there is enough taxes going around for all of us, yet, there givivng it all away to their rich friends. I think we need a new breed of politician that wont be so sold on lobbying and start truly looking out for us ordinary citizen.

My two cents.
 
Dixie Cup
Conservative
#2
Quote: Originally Posted by sejenny View Post

With all the fiasco in the fiscal world with there precious open market, you'd think our gorvnr. would realize that its openning the door to corruption. Market has to be controled and any base utility should be regulated by the elected government.(oil, food, energy, environement) Any time they let the private sector in, we always see an explosion in prices. Then we are expected to bail them out,,,,,, why????? Anybody buying food for a family in Canada will quickly realize that something is wrong when you pay more at the grocery store than at the restaurant. Even then, our minister of finance wants to privatize our CPP.

All they need to do is taxes everybody equally, there is enough taxes going around for all of us, yet, there givivng it all away to their rich friends. I think we need a new breed of politician that wont be so sold on lobbying and start truly looking out for us ordinary citizen.

My two cents.


Unfortunately, government does a far worse job than the private sector. What government must do is get out of the way of business and set the environment for private business to prosper and they will. Other factors such as the currency/financial crisis and stupid government decisions, red tape and tons of regulations are why costs increase.

JMO
 
Bar Sinister
No Party Affiliation
#3
Quote: Originally Posted by Dixie Cup View Post

Unfortunately, government does a far worse job than the private sector. What government must do is get out of the way of business and set the environment for private business to prosper and they will. Other factors such as the currency/financial crisis and stupid government decisions, red tape and tons of regulations are why costs increase.

JMO

Unfortunately, government does a far worse job than the private sector.

Does it? It certainly does a much better job of administering social programs and ensuring that natural areas are preserved than the private sector. And when was he last time a government plunged the world into an economic recession similar to that caused by financial institutions in the USA and elsewhere? In fact government does many things much better than the private sector, especially when it comes to insuring that all members of the population receive a necessary service. A case in point is that in Canada and the US leaving internet services up to the private sector has resulted in about one-third of Canadians and Americans receiving substandard internet services. I could give many other similar examples but this will do for now.
 
damngrumpy
No Party Affiliation
#4
The problem is in a modern society no ideology works alone in and of itself. In a modern society
there are times when the free market system works quite well and other times when government
must take the lead. Medicare is a prime example, social assistance, and so on, are programs
that need governments involvement. The mess we face today is because the free market and the
government teamed up to take risks well beyond the norm.
The governments provided the avenue, for banks and institutions to take risks with the established
rules and to keep the whole thing going governments allowed the rules to be changed. I am now
talking about the United States. The end result is not the problem Americans know about, its the
problem many are not aware of, The derivative markets, this is the single biggest problem when the
chips are sorted out. The leveraged funds market, constitute over 1.2 quadrillion dollars you see the
figure correct and it is getting worse. The estimated world economy is 2009 was between 50 and
60 trillion so the outstanding derivatives market debt is more than 20 times the world economy.
I once read in Daily Finance, a column by Peter Cohan that laid it out pretty well and the problem is
not going away because the whole thing is unregulated and continues even now.
There is another book called Game Over by Steven Leeb, that looks at a whole series of problems
we are about to face in the coming years that will compound the problems we are facing.
The private system is the biggest scam since Bernie Madoff and company.
On the other hand look at the socialist regimes of Greece, Spain, and others who have run up an
absolute mountain of debt playing the game of speculation with your money. If in fact you believe
that Mr Harper and his government have saved us from a financial collapse worse than the Great
Depression, I have bad news for you. At best, we have put off a serious problem for another day.
This whole picture is following the pattern of the 1930's. In 1929 the first serious problem came to
light and it looked like everything would work out, that is until 1933 when the bottom fell out.
We are facing a total collapse of the private system and the social programs we depend on in our
society. For those who, believe the private market is a failed experiment, you are right. For those
who believe the socialist system, is not working, you are also right. Some on this thread say we
should let the private market system look after the business of business alone, well these people
have rung up a leveraged debt of 1.2 quadrillion dollars. That is 1000X a Trillion Dollars. Do you
still believe we should let the private sector look after all the business without government supervision
or involvement?
 
CDNBear
+1
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by sejenny View Post

With all the fiasco in the fiscal world with there precious open market, you'd think our gorvnr. would realize that its openning the door to corruption. Market has to be controled and any base utility should be regulated by the elected government.(oil, food, energy, environement)

Ontario Hydro is a bastion of integrity and efficiency?

The agricultural marketing boards are keeping prices lower?

Are you kidding?

Anything the Gov't touches, turns to shyte.

As soon as you allow the Gov't and public service unions in, and make mediocrity a job skill, you open the door to waste, sloth and gouging. There's literally countless examples of this in Crown Corporations.

Quote:

Any time they let the private sector in, we always see an explosion in prices.

BS. There are countless examples of this being a simple lie.

Quote:

Then we are expected to bail them out,,,,,, why?????

I didn't expect them to be bailed out. We should have let them fail. The Liberals and NDP pushed for it.
Quote:

Anybody buying food for a family in Canada will quickly realize that something is wrong when you pay more at the grocery store than at the restaurant.

Stop shopping at high end stores. Stop urban sprawl. Urban sprawl is the most detrimental issue facing agriculture in Ontario right now. This of course is aided by marketing boards, that make it difficult, for farmers to market their products freely. Of course this is only compounded by a financial system, whose profits are out of control.

Quote:

Even then, our minister of finance wants to privatize our CPP.

Wow, are you misinformed. He wants nothing of the sort. He wants to allow people to opt out of contributing to CPP, and place those funds in a private financial institution.

That's freedom, not corruption.

Quote:

All they need to do is taxes everybody equally, there is enough taxes going around for all of us, yet, there givivng it all away to their rich friends.

You forgot lazy unions, lazy welfare cases, and special interest groups.

Quote:

I think we need a new breed of politician that wont be so sold on lobbying and start truly looking out for us ordinary citizen.

I agree.

Quote:

My two cents.

Your post deserves 1.5 cents change. Better collect quick, before the do away with the penny.

Quote: Originally Posted by Bar Sinister View Post


Does it?

In some cases, yes.

Quote:

It certainly does a much better job of administering social programs...

Really?

I can only find that in the instances where it's been done, that they have done the same or only marginally better than.

Quote:

and ensuring that natural areas are preserved than the private sector.

Now that's a complete crock. All one has to do is watch urban sprawl, to see that the Gov't is doing little to stop the destruction of natural areas.

I've seen hundreds of thousands of acres bulldozed for new homes, industry and mineral exploitation.

Quote:

And when was he last time a government plunged the world into an economic recession similar to that caused by financial institutions in the USA and elsewhere?

Who sets the regulations that govern said institutions? Who repealed the Glass Stegal act, that was a leading cause of the financial down turn?

Quote:

In fact government does many things much better than the private sector, especially when it comes to insuring that all members of the population receive a necessary service.

Lone Wolf will argue that one.

Quote:

A case in point is that in Canada and the US leaving internet services up to the private sector has resulted in about one-third of Canadians and Americans receiving substandard internet services. I could give many other similar examples but this will do for now.

Really? You want to use the internet, a luxury, as an example? Really?
 
Walter
#6
Cuba and North Korea are doing just fine.
 
wulfie68
No Party Affiliation
+1
#7
I'm in the middle on this, agreeing with some of Damngrumpy and a lot of CDNBear's points:

- Unbridled corporate control means that the first obligation is to shareholders of the companies, no one else.The needs of others are not on the same level, be they clients or the communities in which they operate. Prime examples of this are in the realm of environmental issues where most corporations will tend to look at it in a case of what they think is cheaper: pay up front for more expensive fixes on issues (be they manpower or technology based solutions) or take the chance nothing bad will happen and pay the fine/clean up after the fact if something goes wrong. I've seen it in oil patch in Alberta (we saw it in the Gulf of Mexico with BP as well) and even to a lesser degree with worker and public safety issues (and we've also seen it in other areas when it hits the news such as in the Westray mining disaster or some of the coal mine incidents in the US).

- The public sector control has its own issues, starting with pork-barrel politics, moving onto corruption, on into politicially motivated decision making aimed at pleasing a mis- or uninformed public rather than making the best decision and ending with the innovation-killing and statuts-quo protecting mindset of the bureaucratic process as whole.
 
JLM
No Party Affiliation
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by wulfie68 View Post

I'm in the middle on this, agreeing with some of Damngrumpy and a lot of CDNBear's points:

- Unbridled corporate control means that the first obligation is to shareholders of the companies, no one else.The needs of others are not on the same level, be they clients or the communities in which they operate. Prime examples of this are in the realm of environmental issues where most corporations will tend to look at it in a case of what they think is cheaper: pay up front for more expensive fixes on issues (be they manpower or technology based solutions) or take the chance nothing bad will happen and pay the fine/clean up after the fact if something goes wrong. I've seen it in oil patch in Alberta (we saw it in the Gulf of Mexico with BP as well) and even to a lesser degree with worker and public safety issues (and we've also seen it in other areas when it hits the news such as in the Westray mining disaster or some of the coal mine incidents in the US).

- The public sector control has its own issues, starting with pork-barrel politics, moving onto corruption, on into politicially motivated decision making aimed at pleasing a mis- or uninformed public rather than making the best decision and ending with the innovation-killing and statuts-quo protecting mindset of the bureaucratic process as whole.

It has a lot to do with what kind of business we are talking about. Some types of business have to succeed - locking up dangerous people, caring for abandoned children, monitoring water quality- these shouldn't necessarily be profit making ventures, so the shareholder is irrelevent. The butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker are businesses which can fail at the whim of the consumer but to succeed the shareholders have to find it profitable or they just invest their money elsewhere. So in most business the share holder has to be looked after first.
 
CDNBear
+1
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by JLM View Post

It has a lot to do with what kind of business we are talking about. Some types of business have to succeed - locking up dangerous people, caring for abandoned children, monitoring water quality- these shouldn't necessarily be profit making ventures, so the shareholder is irrelevent. The butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker are businesses which can fail at the whim of the consumer but to succeed the shareholders have to find it profitable or they just invest their money elsewhere. So in most business the share holder has to be looked after first.

When Crown Corporations run "Public" utilities, we the general public, are the shareholders.

Our taxes go to prop them up, while they still bill us each month. Why? Because they are so inept, they could f!ck up a blow job.

To this day, we've been nothing but bent over and abused by them.

Our "Public" health care, that screams every time someone even utters "privatization", seems to think of itself as so much better then the US system.

When in fact, hospital administrators sit behind glorious oak desks like their American counterparts, collecting fat cheques, from public funds, to push paper and design Tashma-hospitals. While the people in the trenches are dispatched with, because the health care system is in financial trouble. Because we're paying administration way to much for what they do.
 
china
Conservative
+1
#10
Quote:

No proof that private sector works, but lots of proof it doesn't.



Oh yeah, tell that to the Chinese who have the fastest growing economy in the world - just because of the private enterprises .

Wow!It's just like saying...."there is no proof that Canadians are the best hockey players in the world , but lots of proof they aren't" .Ts Ts , where is this world going to.
Last edited by china; Jan 9th, 2011 at 10:37 AM..
 
JLM
No Party Affiliation
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBear View Post

When Crown Corporations run "Public" utilities, we the general public, are the shareholders.

Our taxes go to prop them up, while they still bill us each month. Why? Because they are so inept, they could f!ck up a blow job.

To this day, we've been nothing but bent over and abused by them.

Our "Public" health care, that screams every time someone even utters "privatization", seems to think of itself as so much better then the US system.

When in fact, hospital administrators sit behind glorious oak desks like their American counterparts, collecting fat cheques, from public funds, to push paper and design Tashma-hospitals. While the people in the trenches are dispatched with, because the health care system is in financial trouble. Because we're paying administration way to much for what they do.

Yep, when it comes to shareholders vs. bureaucrats, bureaucrats lose in my books.
 
taxslave
Free Thinker
+3
#12  Top Rated Post
Quote: Originally Posted by sejenny View Post

With all the fiasco in the fiscal world with there precious open market, you'd think our gorvnr. would realize that its openning the door to corruption. Market has to be controled and any base utility should be regulated by the elected government.(oil, food, energy, environement) Any time they let the private sector in, we always see an explosion in prices. Then we are expected to bail them out,,,,,, why????? Anybody buying food for a family in Canada will quickly realize that something is wrong when you pay more at the grocery store than at the restaurant. Even then, our minister of finance wants to privatize our CPP.

All they need to do is taxes everybody equally, there is enough taxes going around for all of us, yet, there givivng it all away to their rich friends. I think we need a new breed of politician that wont be so sold on lobbying and start truly looking out for us ordinary citizen.

My two cents.

You sound like another clown that just learned about communism in school. Wait until you graduate and get a job then come back and discuss reality with the adults.
Besides if we taxed everyone equally either the poor would owe more in taxes than they get or the rich would have to pay no taxes. Take your pick.
Don't believe everything your socialist teachers tell you. Few of them have ever been outside the classroom. They just got a desk that faces the other direction.
 
china
Conservative
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by JLM View Post

Yep, when it comes to shareholders vs. bureaucrats, bureaucrats lose in my books.

[/QUOTE]Oh yeah? Many -most bureaucrats are also shareholders . But what do you know , you're just a bookkeeper .
 
CDNBear
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by china View Post

oh yeah? Many -most bureaucrats are shareholders . But what do you know , you're just a part of the pay cheque .

fify
 
Cannuck
No Party Affiliation
+1
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBear View Post

Anything the Gov't touches, turns to shyte.

If it was really that simple, the more regulated banks in Canada would be doing worse than the less regulated banks in the States. In fact, Canada as a whole would be doing worse than the states. I wouldn't trade places with Phoenix, Detroit, Buffalo or Sacramento.

Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBear View Post

As soon as you allow the Gov't and public service unions in, and make mediocrity a job skill, you open the door to waste, sloth and gouging. There's literally countless examples of this in Crown Corporations.

...and there are literally countless examples of non union, non government, private slothful companies that waste and gouge. Unfortunately, they are usually the biggest organizations around and it simply is not wise to just let them fail. The effects of a poorly run 7-11 store closing is non existent compared to a GM closing its doors.
 
CDNBear
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by Cannuck View Post

If it was really that simple, the more regulated banks in Canada would be doing worse than the less regulated banks in the States. In fact, Canada as a whole would be doing worse than the states. I wouldn't trade places with Phoenix, Detroit, Buffalo or Sacramento.

I wouldn't be so daft as to take my comment so out of context, when clearly it was in regards to privatized services. Not regulatory legislation.

Quote:

...and there are literally countless examples of non union, non government, private slothful companies that waste and gouge.

At their own peril, usually.
Quote:

Unfortunately, they are usually the biggest organizations around and it simply is not wise to just let them fail. The effects of a poorly run 7-11 store closing non existent compared to a GM closing its doors.

And when it fails, something will fill its place, if there is a market for it.

Propping it up, only lasts so long. Unless you want to make corporate welfare a perpetual process. I don't.
 
Tonington
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by china View Post


Oh yeah, tell that to the Chinese who have the fastest growing economy in the world - just because of the private enterprises .

Bull $hit. The number of private firms is growing, but the assets are clearly being built up with state moneys.



EDIT: SOE is state-owned-enterprise
Last edited by Tonington; Jan 9th, 2011 at 11:34 AM..
 
JLM
No Party Affiliation
#18
Oh yeah? Many -most bureaucrats are also shareholders . But what do you know , you're just a bookkeeper .[/QUOTE]

Where do you get that? You don't make a lot of sense at the best of times, but I had to respond to this display of idiocy.
 
Cannuck
No Party Affiliation
+1
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBear View Post

I wouldn't be so daft as to take my comment so out of context, when clearly it was in regards to privatized services. Not regulatory legislation.

So you are saying that people in the government that provide services turn everything they touch to shyte but the ones that provide regulation do a good job? Why do you think that is? Do they have different job applications or hiring standards for the federal government depending on whether the job is service or regulatory focused. Inquiring minds want to know.
Last edited by Ron in Regina; Jan 10th, 2011 at 07:43 AM..
 
lone wolf
Free Thinker
+1
#20
That would depend on whether they're defending the public purse or spending from it....
 
CDNBear
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by Cannuck View Post

So you are saying that people in the government that provide services turn everything they touch to shyte but the ones that provide regulation do a good job? Why do you think that is? Do they have different job applications or hiring standards for the federal government depending on whether the job is service or regulatory focused. Inquiring minds want to know.

Well troll, I couldn't tell you honestly, but I think it might have something to do with who applies for what.

I highly doubt health and welfare positions are applied to by people with business or banking degrees. Nor do I think positions in financial analysis, are applied to by people with a degree in the social services fields.

But hey, that kind of logic would just get in the way of trolling eh?

Still doing the nic change eh? Good call, it doesn't make you look like a troll at all.

I guess your sore that I fed it to you again, in the thread on the Protesters eh?
 
darkbeaver
Republican
#22
I disagree with the opening statement. The problem is the perspective. If you follow the money and understand the glut of wealth accumulated in the upper 2 per cent you can see that from the perspective of the rich the private sector has never worked better and that deregulation was the ticket to the present upper class nirvana. As for government, we don't have any in the west, we have cliques of ultra rich dictating policy directly and governing by overt power alone.
 
taxslave
Free Thinker
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by Cannuck View Post

If it was really that simple, the more regulated banks in Canada would be doing worse than the less regulated banks in the States. In fact, Canada as a whole would be doing worse than the states. I wouldn't trade places with Phoenix, Detroit, Buffalo or Sacramento.



...and there are literally countless examples of non union, non government, private slothful companies that waste and gouge. Unfortunately, they are usually the biggest organizations around and it simply is not wise to just let them fail. The effects of a poorly run 7-11 store closing is non existent compared to a GM closing its doors.

GM non union? We wish.
 
Machjo
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by sejenny View Post

With all the fiasco in the fiscal world with there precious open market, you'd think our gorvnr. would realize that its openning the door to corruption. Market has to be controled and any base utility should be regulated by the elected government.(oil, food, energy, environement) Any time they let the private sector in, we always see an explosion in prices. Then we are expected to bail them out,,,,,, why????? Anybody buying food for a family in Canada will quickly realize that something is wrong when you pay more at the grocery store than at the restaurant. Even then, our minister of finance wants to privatize our CPP.

All they need to do is taxes everybody equally, there is enough taxes going around for all of us, yet, there givivng it all away to their rich friends. I think we need a new breed of politician that wont be so sold on lobbying and start truly looking out for us ordinary citizen.

My two cents.

Your view is way too black and white. I could probably describe my views as somewhat social-corporatist, so I can certainly understand the vale of regulating the market. Regulation of the private sector is a far cry from its comlete nationalization and socialization.

While I agree that a completely free market is detrimental to our society, a completely unfree market would be equally detrimental. Could you imagine an author working on a book on his own time on the weekends having to to to some government department to get that free time approved? What a bureaucracy that would be, to say the least.
 
Cannuck
No Party Affiliation
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBear View Post

I highly doubt health and welfare positions are applied to by people with business or banking degrees. Nor do I think positions in financial analysis, are applied to by people with a degree in the social services fields.

I'm not talking about health vs financial analysis. I'm talking about service vs regulation. The question is really rather simple. Do you have any evidence whatsoever that (as an example) Alberta Environment has a different hiring standard for an engineer for working in the regulatory department as opposed to one in the operations or construction side? I'll keep asking if you keep twisting.
Last edited by Ron in Regina; Jan 10th, 2011 at 07:43 AM..
 
lone wolf
Free Thinker
+1
#26
As far as I can see, you're the one twisting, Porter ... as usual
 
Cannuck
No Party Affiliation
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolf View Post

As far as I can see, you're the one twisting, Porter ... as usual

Twisting? I'm just asking questions.
 
CDNBear
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by Cannuck View Post

I'm not talking about health vs financial analysis.

I know.

Quote:

I'm talking about service vs regulation.

I know.

Quote:

The question is really rather simple.

It would have to be, you asked it. It's the complicated answer you're having difficulty understanding.

Quote:

Do you have any evidence whatsoever that (as an example) Alberta Environment has a different hiring standard for an engineer for working in the regulatory department as opposed to one in the operations or construction side?

No. Do you have any evidence they don't?

Quote:

I'll keep asking as I keep twisting.

FIFY.

Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolf View Post

As far as I can see, you're the one twisting, Porter ... as usual

It's called projection Lone, you already knew that though.

Quote: Originally Posted by Cannuck View Post

Twisting? I'm just asking questions.

It's called trolling actually, but I love it. It gets me all a tittered.
 
Cannuck
No Party Affiliation
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by Bear View Post

It would have to be, you asked it. It's the complicated answer you're having difficulty understanding.

I may very well have trouble understanding complicated answers. In this particular case, you haven't given one so I think you are jumping to conclusions

Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBear View Post

No. Do you have any evidence they don't?

No but I didn't make a claim so it's not really up to me.

It's quite clear you are unwilling to provide an answer.
Last edited by Ron in Regina; Jan 10th, 2011 at 07:44 AM..
 
CDNBear
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by Cannuck View Post

I may very well have trouble understanding complicated answers.

There's no "may" about it. You've shown you don't.

Quote:

In this particular case, you haven't given one so I think you are jumping to conclusions

Nah, the simple fact that you didn't get it and then twisted and turned to try and get a leg up, shows just how far you're willing to go, to appear smart.

Quote:

No but I didn't make a claim so it's not really up to me.

No, I guess it isn't.

Quote:

It's quite clear you are unwilling to provide an answer.

I already did, you just aren't capable of understanding it. Likely due to either the fact that I so enraged you in that thread, or you simply have a comprehension issue.

I figure it's a combination of the two. Hence the fact that I'm your new target, hence the constant nic change. I love it. That kind of grudge and power gets me all excited.

You really shouldn't take this stuff so seriously Cannuck, someone might start making fun of you. I take the BassPro web site more seriously, than I take you.

So, seriously (LOL), I can't find any reference to your military service. I can find some reference to you being an Army brat though. You do realize there's a big difference between the two right?
Last edited by CDNBear; Jan 9th, 2011 at 01:37 PM..
 

Similar Threads

59
'I've seen proof of the afterlife'
by Blackleaf | Mar 24th, 2008
98
Proof of Christianity
by alasdair | Nov 12th, 2006
0
Where the Hell Is YOUR Proof?
by jjw1965 | Oct 24th, 2005
3
More Proof it's about the oil
by mrmom2 | Jul 29th, 2005