Russia lays claim to Canadian Territory


#juan
No Party Affiliation
#1
Russia plants flag staking claim to Arctic region

Comments (117)

Friday, August 3, 2007 | 09:14 AM ET


A mini-submarine dropped a titanium capsule containing a Russian flag on the ocean floor at the North Pole Thursday, in a symbolic claim of the polar region's oil and minerals.
In this image made from an RTR TV broadcast, a Russian miniature sub is lowered Thursday from a research vessel, moments before diving under the polar ice to drop a capsule holding a Russian flag, staking a symbolic claim to the region's resources.
(RTR Channel/Associated Press)
If recognized, the claim would give Russia control of almost half of the Arctic seabed, an area as large as the Prairie provinces that could be abundant in natural resources such as oil and gas.
The region is currently divided among Canada, the United States, Norway, Russia and Denmark. Russia is claiming a larger area, saying that the Arctic seabed and Siberia are linked by the same continental shelf. The UN rejected the claim, citing lack of evidence, but the country is set to resubmit the application in 2009.
Canada, meanwhile, plans to spend $7.5 billion to build and operate up to eight Arctic patrol ships in a bid to help protect its sovereignty.

What do you think? Should Canada be doing more in the Arctic? Do we need nuclear subs?
 
#juan
No Party Affiliation
#2
In my mind, this is just as important as procuring helicopters and heavy lift aircraft. These ships should be ordered right now. In the meantime, we should have two or three frigates up there right now at the very least as well as patrol aircraft.
 
Unforgiven
#3
Should have been on this long ago. No one listens though. We aren't going to compete with Russian military so we should get our lawyers, which we have an abundance of, up to speed and make with the litigation.

By that time, we can get the Yanks paranoid enough to get up there and fight the neo-commies for us.
 
Andem
Free Thinker
#4
Quote: Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post

Should have been on this long ago. No one listens though. We aren't going to compete with Russian military so we should get our lawyers, which we have an abundance of, up to speed and make with the litigation.

By that time, we can get the Yanks paranoid enough to get up there and fight the neo-commies for us.


Agreed.
 
BitWhys
#5
The North Pole isn't Canadian territory. Its a boundary.
 
Blackleaf
#6
And the Russians have the cheek to recently say that the British are "imperial-minded" over the Litvinenko/Lugovoi affair.
 
#juan
No Party Affiliation
#7
. I think we should step up our visits to the Inuit villages and do what we've been doing for half a century....but more of it. Didn't we already have this squabble at the UN?
 
missile
Conservative
#8
If the area does contain oil and gas reserves,then the USA will gladly help us defend our soil.
 
wallyj
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post

Should have been on this long ago. No one listens though. We aren't going to compete with Russian military so we should get our lawyers, which we have an abundance of, up to speed and make with the litigation.

By that time, we can get the Yanks paranoid enough to get up there and fight the neo-commies for us.

I agree,but what is a neo-commie? Is neo the new prefix for the chattering class to affix to anyone they disagree with? Neo-nazi,neo-conservative,neo-commie,how about neo-leftoid?
 
#juan
No Party Affiliation
#10
Quote:

Should have been on this long ago. No one listens though. We aren't going to compete with Russian military so we should get our lawyers, which we have an abundance of, up to speed and make with the litigation.

No, we wouldn't win any battle with the Russian military but we can't just let them walk in and set up a homestead either. We will have to win the political battle down the road. The best way to do that is to keep on showing a presence there.
 
Zzarchov
#11
Depends, if the USA is backing us (we are part of Norad and Nato) the Ruskies really and got a shot in hell of forcing a military victory. But we just set up shop they are kinda screwed.
 
#juan
No Party Affiliation
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by Zzarchov View Post

Depends, if the USA is backing us (we are part of Norad and Nato) the Ruskies really and got a shot in hell of forcing a military victory. But we just set up shop they are kinda screwed.

The problem is, that the Americans don't see any Canadian rights to the Northwest Passage and what the U.S. is claiming makes our claims much smaller. Kind of a protection racket.
 
Dreadful Nonsense
#13
this was topic over the weekend....I'm with my "Use it or lose it" stance.

It really bugs me.....I think if this goes to the Russians it will have an effect on our Canadian Psyche...dontcha think....maybe this is exactly the shake up we need...
 
Unforgiven
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by wallyj View Post

I agree,but what is a neo-commie? Is neo the new prefix for the chattering class to affix to anyone they disagree with? Neo-nazi,neo-conservative,neo-commie,how about neo-leftoid?

You heard it here first. Neo-commie or Neocom for the smart set, is the new communist movement under Putin. "Gonna play in the big leagues one day "
Russian Fed.
 
Avro
No Party Affiliation
#15
Someone should tell Santa about this one

Washington's reaction was angry and bizarre

By ERIC MARGOLIS

Russia scored a "coup de theatre" this week by sending a nuclear-powered icebreaker and another research vessel to show the flag at the North Pole.
Two submersibles then made a perilous, four-km- deep dive to the ocean's bottom in the latest feat of Russia's long, often heroic record of Arctic exploration.
Supposedly down-and-out Russia shocked everyone by staking an audacious claim to a large swathe of the Arctic Ocean which may contain up to 25% of global oil and gas reserves.
The Arctic pack ice has been melting rapidly due to global warming produced by over-use of fossil fuels. This, ironically, is opening the Arctic to new energy exploration and maritime commerce.
Usually dour President Vladimir Putin must be grinning from ear to ear as he watched huge consternation in Canada, the U.S., Norway and Denmark, all of whom have been hungrily eying the high Arctic.
The Kremlin claims its Siberian continental shelf extends to the North Pole along a 1,200-km underwater ridge named after the renowned 18th century Russian scientist, Lomonosov. International law grants maritime nations a 200-mile economic exclusion zone off their coasts. Moscow insists the North Pole is really just an extension of northern Siberia. Santa will not be happy.
Nor is Ottawa, outraged the Russians had the cheek to make even a symbolic claim to the polar region. Canada wants to advance its own Arctic claims, but, embarrassingly, lacks the icebreakers, patrol vessels, long-ranged aircraft and bases to defend or even police them. New Canadian icebreakers and patrol vessels are still on the drawing boards.
"This isn't the 15th century!" exclaimed Foreign Minister Peter MacKay.
"Nations can't claim territory by just planting flags."
True, but it didn't seem to occur to outraged Ottawa that its limited military forces and budgets might better be used defending Canadian sovereignty claims in the Arctic than chasing Pashtun tribesmen in remotest Afghanistan.
Washington's reaction was also angry, and bizarre. A U.S. icebreaker is being rushed at flank speed from Seattle to the North Pole. Administration officials fretted the fabled Arctic Northwest Passage might be used "to transport terrorists" -- this, while 200,000 illegal aliens slip into the U.S. from Mexico each month!
RUSSIA'S CLAIMS
Actually, the Russians have solid historic claims to the Arctic. Only the Norse Vikings have been active there longer.
As early as 1032 AD, Russians explored the Kara Sea off northern Siberia and, soon after, the White and Lapatev Seas only 700 km south of the North Pole. In the 1600's, major Russian expeditions charted the Arctic. Under Peter the Great, Russia opened the Arctic Seas to commerce and made Alaska a colony.
Moscow vows to observe international law and advance its Arctic claims through the UN. Fair enough.
It's refreshing to see a great power observing international law. Moscow could have adopted the Bush administration's excuse for invading Iraq, claiming it was occupying the North Pole to find weapons of mass destruction hidden there by rogue seals.
Even so, and joking aside, Moscow's territorial claim is way over the top and not the right way to deal with what is becoming the very important and potentially dangerous issue of Arctic resources.
There's a much better method to handle this potential gold rush. The entire, oval-shaped Arctic zone surrounded by the 200-mile limits of Canada, the U.S., Norway and Denmark should become a special UN economic zone. Any nation seeking to drill or mine in this region should buy concessions from the UN and pay it royalties that will be used to fund humanitarian and ecological projects.
SPECIAL ZONES
Regions in which maritime exclusion zones overlap -- such as off Greenland, the Bering Strait, Norway's Savalbard, Russia's Franz Josef Land, Greek and Turkish Aegean islands, the South China Seas' contested Paracel and Spratly islands -- should also become UN-run special economic zones and, like Antarctica, international territory.
It's called sharing, a grown-up way to resolve global resource disputes.

http://www.torontosun.com/News/Colum...95341-sun.html
 
William Ashley
#16
What do you think? Should Canada be doing more in the Arctic? Do we need nuclear subs?

Look to the Falkans -

although there ARE legitimate reasons for being up there Canada doesn't need 8 ships - for the artic - coast gaurd or military would I think rather have ships that have more of a multipurpose role including the pacific. While I think may 4 ships would be useful 8 ships seems too many for the amount of business projects going on up there and the sea traffic. The good thing is once the north pole ect melts from global warming ships and trade between those countries will be a lot easier --- but I think that the geography will be the solution. Proove it's an extension and it may hold up... otherwise whatever... The price tag I am supised at I had no idea it would cost that much to build 8 ships................................

Canada really can't do anything to stop it anyway it is almost a joke for canada to be trying to exercise it's rights against Russia....


if it really disagrees go and pick up the capsule and see what happens.. that's what the
british did.

And no canada doesn't need subs. it is a support navy and maritime patrol force......

without it's allies it is questionable ---- the geology is all that matters. (of course getting the US to agree with international law is the other issue.
(either it is a natural extension of one of the peoples land masses -- or it is international water..where not EEZ or TW.
 
JoeSchmoe
#17
Harper ordered ships with ice-breaking capability of 1 metre thickness. Pathetic. The Russians used an icebreaker that can cut through 10 metres of ice! And they needed it. Even if we had thoose 8 ships we couldn't even have gone to where the Russians were. We need research ships up there.... not the navy. We need to establish a presence and win the arctic through litigation, not with a few puny naval ships.

The Yanks are going to help, you say? Not bloody likely! They're more likely to lay claim to that same piece of real estate and try and take it for their own! They DON'T recognize Canadian sovereignty of the arctic!
 
Impetus
#18
Yeah, when it's Denmark, Canada flexes her muscle...(from 2005).

Muz

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...2/ixworld.html

Canada flexes its muscles in dispute over Arctic wastes


By Francis Harris in Washington

Last Updated: 12:54am BST 23/08/2005





Canadian warships were sailing towards the Arctic yesterday in the latest act of gunboat diplomacy over control of the frozen wastes there.
Ottawa has launched a series of Arctic sovereignty patrols to assert its territorial claims and fend off rivals, Denmark, Norway, Russia and the United States.
Its scramble for the Arctic is a consequence of global warming and the retreat of the polar ice. This has raised the prospect of once-inaccessible areas becoming available for oil and mineral extraction. It has also revived the dream of a "North-West Passage" for shipping, linking the Atlantic and Pacific.
Amid diplomatic arguments over territorial rights, Canada's defence minister recently clambered on to a frozen rock, tiny Hans Island, triggering protests from Denmark.
The Canadian programme hit high gear yesterday as the frigate Fredricton sailed towards the contested Davis Strait separating Greenland and north-east Canada. Two coastal defence vessels, meanwhile, have visited the port of Churchill for the first time in 30 years and have set sail for the upper Hudson Bay.
"This is a demonstration of Canada's will to exercise sovereignty over our own back yard," said Cdre Bob Blakely, of the Royal Canadian Navy.
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"The sea is a highway that's open to everyone. We will allow everybody passage as long as they ask for our consent and comply with our rules: 'use our resources wisely and don't pollute the fragile northern ecosystem'. "
The renewed Canadian military presence has made other Arctic claimants sit up.
Canada and the US are at odds over control of the North-West Passage and the resource-rich Beaufort Sea, while Canada and Russia both claim overlapping parts of the Arctic continental shelf.
Denmark, which rules Greenland, was angered by the unheralded arrival of Canada's defence minister, Bill Graham, on disputed Hans Island last month.
He stayed for a short while, examining a new Maple Leaf flag planted by Canadian servicemen there, and an old flag left by a Danish naval party three years earlier.
Denmark dispatched the naval cutter Tulugaq and threatened to land more men. However, as tensions rose, the two Nato allies had second thoughts, and the rival claimants agreed to discuss the dispute at the United Nations next month.
Critics of the Canadian policy argue that if the government is serious about pursuing a robust "northern strategy" it will have to start investing.
A C$700 million (322 million) road to Tuktoyaktuk on the Arctic Sea has been proposed, but the money has not yet been pledged.
The military, meanwhile, is not ideally equipped for the brutal conditions of the far north. Although it is expanding its Arctic command base at Yellowknife, the navy lacks sufficient capacity to plough through the pack ice.
Critics say that this explains why the Canadian authorities have chosen the summer months to undertake their sovereignty patrols.
A military exercise in the Arctic last year was termed an "embarrassing debacle" by the Toronto Star newspaper because of harsh weather and poor equipment.
 
Unforgiven
#19
You know I'm just curious how many different nuclear subs are lurking in those waters as we speak. I bet it's a parking lot.
 
Ariadne
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post

You know I'm just curious how many different nuclear subs are lurking in those waters as we speak. I bet it's a parking lot.

Think I heard that Russia has 5 subs that can go down low enough on the ocean floor and Canada has none. As for subs, maybe they are the same as subs with that kind of capability.
 
Unforgiven
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post

Think I heard that Russia has 5 subs that can go down low enough on the ocean floor and Canada has none. As for subs, maybe they are the same as subs with that kind of capability.

I think probably everyone is there except for Canada.
 
Ariadne
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post

I think probably everyone is there except for Canada.

But Harper's thinking about it. He needs the subs now and needs military spending. It seems we're spending more time and money worrying about whether Afghanistan is still presenting a threat to us, and aiding with preventing Iraq's threat of the supposed WMD (haven't those Americans got that situation under control yet!). Canadians need at least one little sub on the bottom of the ocean in the great white north, even if it means taking support away from the American international efforts.
 
Just the Facts
Free Thinker
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post

Think I heard that Russia has 5 subs that can go down low enough on the ocean floor and Canada has none. As for subs, maybe they are the same as subs with that kind of capability.

Oh, we got subs that can go low enough on the ocean floor. It's getting them back up that we can't do!
 
china
Conservative
#24
Russia lays claim to Canadian Territory......

You can sing all you want about "standing on guard for thee" ,but it is not going to change the above situation. Take it as a test and see for yourself if you are mature enough to be a country.
Last edited by china; Aug 7th, 2007 at 12:54 AM..
 
Ariadne
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by Just the Facts View Post

Oh, we got subs that can go low enough on the ocean floor. It's getting them back up that we can't do!

I heard they can't go down that low - no info on reasons was given. Sounds like an air pressure problem or perhaps propeller? Do you know? I'm curious.
 
Ariadne
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by china View Post

Russia lays claim to Canadian Territory......

You can sing all you want about "standing on guard for thee" ,but it is not going to change the above situation. Take it as a test ,and see if you are mature enough to be a country.

What? Are you pretending that you're from China and you have an attitude like that?
 
china
Conservative
#27
Quote:

What? Are you pretending that you're from China and you have an attitude like that?

Dear Ariadne,Nope,I don't and NEVER pretended anything, It's not my style,I just say the way it is.Obviously that's not the way your mind functions .
 
Ariadne
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by china View Post

Dear Ariadne,Nope,I don't and NEVER pretended anything, It's not my style,I just say the way it is.Obviously that's not the way your mind functions .

You think my mind doesn't function "the way it is"? Interesting.

With such disparaging remarks about the national anthem and other proud Canadian symbols, should I assume that you live in China and have forgotten your culture? Perhaps I would wonder ... pretending? What is your story? Are you Canadian and don't like the country or are you Chinese and you're tipping your hat on your plan to take over Canadian waters?
 
china
Conservative
#29
Dear Ariadne,First ,I love Canada ,Second I Love your questions and will answer them later own .I have a meeting in about .5 /h and have to get ready .I think you are in Germany -right? , well I,m in China and thats a different time zone ,so unfortunately I will not be able to to deliver the answers to you at some precise time though No matter when, you can anticipate my reply
 
china
Conservative
#30
ARIADNE,
Quote:

Are you Canadian and don't like the country or are you Chinese and you're tipping your hat on your plan to take over Canadian waters?

One more question before I have to go -------- what are You doing to protect you beautiful country ?......that's where it all begins my friend ;not with tanks and or submarines.
Talk to you later.
 

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