Israel - The Right to exist as a State?


View Poll Results: Does Israel have the right to exist with secure borders free from attack
NO 6 14.29%
Yes 31 73.81%
Not sure 5 11.90%
Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll

Goober
Free Thinker
#1
Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Does Israel have the right to a State that is free from attacks.

Does Israel have the right to secure borders.

I have seen how threads like this can become a rant and rave - yes I am guilty -

I will try to " play nice" as my friend Cliffy reminds me when I get somewhat out of hand - Thank you Cliffy - We all need that now and again -

So let us see if we can play nicely together and have a decent discussion - difference of opinion -

Do the Arab Countries have to Guarantee this ? If so how can it be enforced -

UN Troops - Useless - Look at Lebanon and the smuggling by Hezbollah - the building of bunkers and rebuilding of strategic points -
While the UN can do nothing.

Should Arab Countries accept a substantial number of the Palestinian ( Refugees) I do not consider the vast majority to be qualified as refugees as many of those present today in these camps, the fathers and mothers left Israel on the advice of Arabs that were planning to destroy Israel and murder Jews.

The Genocide never happened because Israel won the War.

What will the Arabs do when Hamas, Hezbollah and other extremists - (Terror Groups that want the total cleansing ( by any means possible) of Jews from Greater Palestine)- groups within the borders of Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon attack Israel with rockets supplied by Iran or others -

Who will they arrest these terrorists - Likely answer is No One.

Would you trust Arab Guarantees?

Jerusalem - Should it be a divided capital - If so why - Jordan had the rights prior to the 67 war to Jerusalem and gave the rights up later- Jordan purged Jerusalem of Jews when to captured part of Jerusalem. Also -

War Crimes have been committed by Both Israeli's and Palestinians -
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1967to1991_jordan_renounce_claims.php
In April 1950, Jordan annexed eastern Jerusalem (dividing the city for the first time in its history) and the "West Bank" areas in historical Judea and Samaria that Trans-Jordan had occupied by military force in 1948 (Jordan changed its name to Trans-Jordan in April 1949). On April 24, 1950, the Jordan House of Deputies and House of Notables, in a joint session, adopted a Resolution making the West Bank and Jerusalem part of Jordan. This act had no basis in international law; it was only the de facto act of Trans-Jordan as a conqueror. The other Arab countries denied formal recognition of the Jordanian move and only two governments - Great Britain and Pakistan - formally recognized the Jordanian takeover. The rest of the world, including the United States, never did. In July 1988, in response to the accumulated pressures and the months of intifada demonstrations by Palestinians in the West Bank, King Hussein of Jordan ceded to the PLO all Jordanian claims to the territory. Any hopes of a Jordanian-Israeli resolution to the Palestine problem were effectively ended. He dissolved the Jordanian parliament, half of whom were West Bank representatives, and stopped paying salaries to over 20,000 West Bank civil servants. When the Palestine National Council recognized the PLO as the sole legal representative of the Palestinians, Hussein immediately gave them official recognition. Although the establishment of an independent Palestinian state in the West Bank posed a potential threat to Jordan as a Hashemite kingdom, Hussein gambled that this was less of a threat than the possibility of Jordan to become the alternative homeland for the Palestinians. By taking Jordan out of the way, relinquishing any claim of sovereignty, he sought to move solutions toward the Palestinian state in line with the desires of Arafat and the PLO

. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine
See UN Maps
http://www.mefacts.com/outgoing.asp?x_id=10191

The following statement by Abba Eban was cited in the Jerusalem Post of August 18, 1995 by Jerusalem Post columnist Moshe Kohn: "We have openly said that the map will never again be the same as on June 4, 1967. For us, this is a matter of security and of principles. The June map is for us equivalent to insecurity and danger. I do not exaggerate when I say that it has for us something of a memory of Auschwitz. We shudder when we think of what would have awaited us in the circumstances of June, 1967, if we had been defeated; with Syrians on the mountain and we in the valley, with the Jordanian army in sight of the sea, with the Egyptians who hold our throat in their hands in Gaza. This is a situation which will never be repeated in history." - Abba Eban, Israeli Statesman, in Der Spiegel, November 5, 1969
(with thanks to Dr. Aaron Lerner and to Clarence Wagner for locating this item)

On July 26, 1978, Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, whose parents and older brother were murdered by the Nazis, commented on Israeli Televsion about Abba Eban 's use of the term "Auschwitz lines", when he described the June 4, 1967 map, saying that "you have never heard such an extreme term from me . . . because there will be no Auschwitz here"
http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/viewresource.asp?resourceID=000642

http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/viewresource.asp?resourceID=1118
Israel - Pre 1967 War

http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/viewresource.asp?resourceID=1125

http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/viewresource.asp?resourceID=1149
Israel 200o
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_242

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_UN_resolutions_concerning_Israel_and_P alestine http://

www.historylearningsite.co.uk/palestine_1918_to_1948.htm

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Arabs_in_Palestine.html

http: // en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine http://

www.mideastweb.org/mandate.htm

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate.php http://

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Arabs_in_Palestine.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration_of_1917

http://www.science.co.il/arab-israeli-conflict.asp#Jerusalem

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Israeli_History/SixDay_War,_Yom_Kippur_War,_Settlements
Last edited by Goober; Jan 28th, 2010 at 06:15 PM..
 
MHz
#2
Quote: Originally Posted by Goober View Post

Should Arab Countries accept a substantial number of the Palestinian ( Refugees) I do not consider the vast majority to be qualified as refugees as many of those present today in these camps, the fathers and mothers left Israel on the advice of Arabs that were planning to destroy Israel and murder Jews.
The Genocide never happened because Israel won the War.

I got this far before I stopped reading. Reality doesn't revolve around what you consider thing to be or not to be. lol
Which link is to the UN Resolution 181, might as well start there, the we can cover the 400 missing Arab villages.

Last edited by MHz; Jan 28th, 2010 at 07:06 PM..
 
Goober
Free Thinker
#3
Quote: Originally Posted by MHz View Post

I got this far before I stopped reading. Reality doesn't revolve around what you consider thing to be or not to be. lol
Which link is to the UN Resolution 181, might as well start there, the we can cover the 400 missing Arab villages.

United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
TenPenny
#4
From what I can gather, Israel has a right to exist because after WW2, we had to find somewhere to let the Jews live, and they had this book that said they were supposed to live there. So the folks who did live there were given the boot, and when they get upset, Israel is allowed to kill them.

That's the way it works, I guess.
 
Goober
Free Thinker
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by TenPenny View Post

From what I can gather, Israel has a right to exist because after WW2, we had to find somewhere to let the Jews live, and they had this book that said they were supposed to live there. So the folks who did live there were given the boot, and when they get upset, Israel is allowed to kill them.

That's the way it works, I guess.

Israel like many other countries came into nationhood after WW2 - as to the killing - Both sides are involved - to state that Israel has some sort of right to kill them is false - are we trying to have a rational and decent discussion or not?
 
Goober
Free Thinker
#6
MHZ

Population Statistics - Israeli-Palestinian Conflict - ProCon.org
 
TenPenny
#7
So, you're saying that Israel does NOT have a right to kill people who threaten it?
 
Goober
Free Thinker
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by TenPenny View Post

So, you're saying that Israel does NOT have a right to kill people who threaten it?


First you use upset that allows Israeli's to kill Palestinians - Now you use threaten - My reply was based upon your descriptive" term " Upset "

So to answer your 2nd time around with a completely different word " Threaten" Nations as well as Individuals in most countries have the right to use force to protect themselves from harm - but only the amount of force that is required to stop the threat - example a person comes at you with a knife - you disarm him and as he runs away you chase and stab him to death - That is unreasonable use if force as you are no longer threatened and would be classed as murder - manslaughter in Canada. - Please recall that Isreal like many countries that disappeared thru history have returned -
 
TenPenny
#9
Well, that's clear, then.
 
Goober
Free Thinker
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by TenPenny View Post

Well, that's clear, then.


Ten Penny
I am not a fan of terms like moving forward - This region has hatred based upon religion, blood feuds, and on and on.

As I understand it the 2 sides - are within a few percentages of closing a deal on land - swaps included - the sticking point is right of return - totally unacceptable to Israel as Jews would become an instant minority and Jerusalem

Then the really hard part begins - What happens if - and I say when Israel is attacked by some splinter group that is against the existence of Israel and would complete a genocide of the Jews if given the opportunity -

This will be much more difficult than reaching a land deal - What comes after will be much more difficult than anything we have seen so far.
 
Spade
Free Thinker
#11
The creation of Israel was, in part, to expiate the European sins committed during the Shoah. And so, it exists today. Were there Jews before Modern Israel? Of course. Is Israel synonymous with Judaism? Of course not. Would there be Jews if Israel became a secular state or if it existence were no longer predicated on religion? Of course!

But that is not the question, is it? Is the question, "Can Israel use measures to ensure its existence that would be condemned wholeheartedly if it weren't so tied to the Judaic-Christian myths?" I am not so certain.

Do children who have been abused become abusers. Sadly, it happens more often than we wish! Do I have any answers? No, I do not! Are Arabs any different from Israelis or Albertans or Texans? Of course not! Should the Moslems become the new Jews where we'll cry, "One is too many!" I hope, Goober, you would be the first to shout, "No!"
Last edited by Spade; Jan 28th, 2010 at 09:05 PM..
 
Goober
Free Thinker
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by Spade View Post

The creation of Israel was, in part, to expiate the European sins committed during the Shoah. And so, it exists today. Were there Jews before Modern Israel? Of course. Is Judaism synonymous with Judaism? Of course not. Would there be Jews if Israel became a secular state or if it existence were no longer predicated on religion? Of course!

But that is not the question, is it? Is the question, "Can Israel use measures to ensure its existence that would be condemned wholeheartedly if it weren't so tied to the Judaic-Christian myths?" I am not so certain.

Do children who have been abused become abusers. Sadly, it happens more often than we wish! Do I have any answers? No, I do not! Are Arabs any different from Israelis or Albertans or Texans? Of course not! Should the Moslems become the new Jews where we'll cry, "One is too many!" I hope, Goober, you would be the first to shout, "No!"

Spade -

Indeed you are correct - I hope to have a rational discussion - I believe that the average Palestinian want the same thing that you and I do - I also know that Hamas and other have been instilling hate - rightly in some case - wrongly in more - so it will take generations - meaning more than 8 or 10 to come to a balance of respect -
 
Cliffy
Free Thinker
#13
What seems to upset a lot of people is that nothing is every said to condemn Israel's actions, but the people fighting for the Palestinians are constantly demonized by the media. It has been established to some degree that both sides are guilty by there is still a pro-Israeli bias going on that does not hold them accountable for their part in the conflict.

I used to be a storg supporter of Israel but I have been disillusioned by the inequities of the media nad people in general. With organizations like the B'nai Brith stifling free speech all over the world, it becomes difficult to continue to support the Israelis.
 
Goober
Free Thinker
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy View Post

What seems to upset a lot of people is that nothing is every said to condemn Israel's actions, but the people fighting for the Palestinians are constantly demonized by the media. It has been established to some degree that both sides are guilty by there is still a pro-Israeli bias going on that does not hold them accountable for their part in the conflict.

I used to be a storg supporter of Israel but I have been disillusioned by the inequities of the media nad people in general. With organizations like the B'nai Brith stifling free speech all over the world, it becomes difficult to continue to support the Israelis.

Cliffy
I would differ on some points -
The Left Wing in many democracies have targeted Israel with various campaigns. The most hateful and misleading is Anti Apartheid Week

These self same people condemn Israel's every move yet make no mention of Hamas, Hezbollah and other terror groups along with the States that provide millions of dollars in support.

Cliffy a small test shall we say. You are a fair minded person so I would put this to you and my Brother Spade

List the Arab countries in the Mid East and compare each one on an individual basis on the following criteria

The Universal Declaration of Human rights - Signed of by the UN on 10 Dec 1948 - yes I am quite proud that a Canadian played an integral role is the drafting of this document.

The right to practice your religion or not freely

The right to be free from persecution if you are of a minority based upon religion, race

The right to a free trial

The right to speak freely without fear of imprisonment and or torture.

The right to practice a your religion which is a minority in the country you reside in without fear of arrest, imprisonment, torture or a sentence of death.

These are just a few. These questions are asked of you and Spade as I respect both of you - though we may differ from time to time.

The answers as I know they will be thoughtful and honest will in my opinion demonstrate that in Israel more freedom exists for one of these questions I have asked than in all the Arab countries in the Mid East combined -

Is that bias on my part - No - Just what I see. Last but not least -

Yes I agree that Israel has committed War Crimes - I have never denied that fact.

As I am on in years but young at heart - My years are telling me it is time for bed as I start work at 5 am.
 
TenPenny
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by Goober View Post

the sticking point is right of return - totally unacceptable to Israel as Jews would become an instant minority and Jerusalem

I think that's part of the problem.

We can take away your land, because we have this book, and you're not allowed to come back, because there are more of you than there are us.
 
MHz
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by Goober View Post

MHZ

Population Statistics - Israeli-Palestinian Conflict - ProCon.org

From your link., that means 460400 were made refugees in just 2 years. Those are war crimes that have never been dealt with. Things haven't gotten any better since then.

VI. West Bank & Gaza Strip: Arab Population (1948-2005)
B. Chart
Year
West Bank
Gaza Strip
1948 462,100 82,500
1950*
765,000 240,000
1960
799,000 302,000
1970**
677,000 368,000
1980
964,000 497,000
1985
1,044,000 532,288
1990
1,254,506 642,814
1995
1,626,689 875,231
2000 2,020,298 1,132,063
2005
2,385,615 1,376,289
Sources & Notes: Sources by Year:

1948
Wael R. Ennab "Population and Demographic Developments in the West Bank and Gaza Strip unitl 1990," Study prepared for the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development (UNCTAD), 28 June 1994 1950 - 1980
Justin McCarthy "Palestine's Population During the Ottoman and the British Mandate Periods," 2001
1985 - 2005
U.S. Census Bureau "International Data Base (IDB), Country Summary: West Bank and Gaza Strip," accessed online Sep. 19, 2007
Notes:

*
Increase in the Arab population due to Palestinian Refugees from the territory of the new state of Israel to the West Bank and Gaza Strip during the first Arab-Israeli War (1948-1949) **
Decrease in the Arab population between 1960 and 1970 due to Arab refugees from the 1967 War.
 
Cliffy
Free Thinker
#17
This conflict has been going on since I was born. The lines between victim and victimizer have been blurred for so long, I cannot tell the difference any more. All I can see is that the western media and governments favour Israel and demonize the Arab world and that I find appalling. Since I was a small child I have not been able to reconcile favouritism of any sort, so I find what is going on over there unacceptable.

I find it difficult to agree with most people as they seem to only get their "information" about what is going on from a biased media and are, for the most part, incapable of researching the subject from all sides and forming their own opinion. They accept the opinions fed to them by the corporate media without question. I have stopped even reading what they have to say and prefer to not stress myself over a situation that is so blurred that it is near impossible to ascertain the truth.
 
taxslave
Free Thinker
#18
I think that any group of people in an area should have the right to be an independent country if they so desire without fear of annihilation by their neighbours. Nations come and go and only oppressive regimes like communist Russia need fences and guards to keep their own people in.
The middle east is perhaps different in that they are still fighting over who won a battle 2000 years ago and probably will keep on until there is no one left to fight or they runout of religious fanatics.
 
MHz
#19
Would you gladly accept a body of Voters that are far from Canada deciding that our version of Reservations is illegal and they are give authority over a few key provinces, lock stock and barrel? The people living there are not going to accept that even if they will be facing a lot of rifles.
 
petros
#20
If Israel has the right to kill for their land what is keeping the original North Americans from puttting you or I in a blue UN casket without facing criminal charges?
 
TenPenny
#21
You've got to have a big book that it's written in, if you want to be taken seriously. That's the key.
 
Canaduh
No Party Affiliation
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by petros View Post

If Israel has the right to kill for their land what is keeping the original North Americans from puttting you or I in a blue UN casket without facing criminal charges?

The Native American "holocaust" happened before the media could latch onto it, not to mention the fact they dont own the media like the jews do. Every time the Israels do something or someone speaks out against them they play the holocaust get out of jail free card.
 
earth_as_one
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by TenPenny View Post

From what I can gather, Israel has a right to exist because after WW2, we had to find somewhere to let the Jews live, and they had this book that said they were supposed to live there. So the folks who did live there were given the boot, and when they get upset, Israel is allowed to kill them. That's the way it works, I guess.

People who believe this issue is "complicated" or "difficult to understand" should read your post. In two sentences you have summarized everything that's happened since 1947. What makes it complicated are all the distortions and contradictions which result when Israeli apologists attempt to portray 60+ plus years of war crimes and crimes against humanity committed by a regional super power against a powerless and oppressed people sound like self defense against overwhelming odds.

Goober asks if Israel has a right to exist as a state. I would say yes, provided that Israel finally meets the agreed conditions for UN recognition.

Quote:

Israel was accepted into the United Nations on condition that it accept the Right of Return of the Palestinian refugees. Admission of Israel to membership in the United Nations (General Assembly Resolution 273 of May 11, 1949 ) requires Israel to comply with General Assembly Resolution 194 of December 11, 1948 and Israel stated it agreed to comply with this resolution.

Text of General Assembly Resolution 273 of May 11, 1949 admitting Israel into the United Nations, and noting Israel's stated agreement to comply with Resolution 194 :

UNITED NATIONS General Assembly

A/RES/273 (III)

11 May 1949

------------------------------------------------------------------------

273 (III). Admission of Israel to membership in the United Nations

Having received the report of the Security Council on the application of Israel for membership in the United Nations,1/

Noting that, in the judgment of the Security Council, Israel is a peace-loving State and is able and willing to carry out the obligations contained in the Charter,

Noting that the Security Council has recommended to the General Assembly that it admit Israel to membership in the United Nations,

Noting furthermore the declaration by the State of Israel that it "unreservedly accepts the obligations of the United Nations Charter and undertakes to honour them from the day when it becomes a Member of the United Nations",2/

Recalling its resolutions of 29 November 1947 3/ and 11 December 1948 4/ and taking note of the declarations and explanations made by the representative of the Government of Israel 5/ before the ad hoc Political Committee in respect of the implementation of the said resolutions,

The General Assembly,

Acting in discharge of its functions under Article 4 of the Charter and rule 125 of its rules of procedure,

1. Decides that Israel is a peace-loving State which accepts the obligations contained in the Charter and is able and willing to carry out those obligations;

2. Decides to admit Israel to membership in the United Nations.

Israel violates the conditions for admittance into UN

Except Israel never met these conditions:

Quote:

United Nations General Assembly Resolution 194 [1] was passed on December 11, 1948, near the end of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. The resolution expresses appreciation for the efforts of UN Envoy Folke Bernadotte after his assassination by members of the Lehi group. It deals with the situation in the region of Palestine at the time, establishing and defining the role of the United Nations Conciliation Commission as an organization to facilitate peace in the region.

The resolution consists of 15 articles, the most quoted of which are:

Article 7: protection and free access to the Holy Places
Article 8: demilitarization and UN control over Jerusalem
Article 9: free access to Jerusalem
Article 11: calls for the return of refugees

United Nations General Assembly Resolution 194 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Israel blocks/restricts access to many Holy Places.

They have militarily occupied Jerusalem, declared it their capital and are in the process of cleansing it of residents who aren't Jewish.

Israel has not allowed a single refugee to return home. They have never paid a cent in compensation. Instead, they confiscated their property. People lost their businesses, bank accounts, farms, and most of their possessions. Confiscated homes were awarded directly to Jewish immigrants. Israel razed hundreds of ethnically cleansed villages to the ground and built Jewish only colonies over the ruins including ancient burial grounds and cemeteries.

Today, Israel is about as "peace loving" as they were when they declared independence.
Quote:

Lehi (Hebrew pronunciation: [ˈlɛxi], Hebrew acronym for Lohamei Herut Israel, "Fighters for the Freedom of Israel," לח"י - לוחמי חרות ישראל) was an armed underground Zionist group in Mandatory Palestine.[1] Its goal was to forcibly evict the British authorities from Palestine, allowing unrestricted immigration of Jews and the formation of a Jewish state. It was initially called the National Military Organization in Israel.[2] The Lehi is also referred to, after its founder, Avraham Stern, as the Stern Group or (the name used by the British) Stern Gang.[3]...



German cover letter from January 11, 1941 attached to a description of an offer for an alliance with Nazi Germany attributed to Lehi.

...In 1940, Lehi proposed intervening in World War II on the side of Nazi Germany. It offered assistance in "transferring" the Jews of Europe, in return for Germany's help in expelling Britain from Mandate Palestine. Late in 1940, Lehi representative Naftali Lubenchik was sent to Beirut where he met the German official Werner Otto von Hentig. Lubenchik told von Hentig that Lehi had not yet revealed its full power and that they were capable of organizing a whole range of anti-British operations...

...On 6 November 1944 Lehi assassinated Lord Moyne in Cairo. Moyne was the highest ranking British government representative in the region...

...January 12, 1947, Lehi members drove a truckload of explosives into a British police station in Haifa killing four and injuring 140...

...During the lead-up to the 1948 Arab-Israeli war the Cairo-Haifa train was mined several times. On February 29, 1948, Lehi mined the train north of Rehovot, killing 28 soldiers and wounding 35. On March 31, the train was mined near Binyamina killing 40 civilians and wounding 60....

...On 9 April 1948, independently of the Nachshon operation but with the agreement of the Haganah, about 120 members of Lehi and Irgun attacked the village. They massacred between 100 and 120 inhabitants of the village, mostly civilians.[38]... ...According to Morris, "the most important immediate effect of the atrocity and the media campaign that followed it was how one started to report the fear felt in Palestinian towns and villages, and, later, the panicked fleeing from them."[40]

Another important repercussion was within the Arab population of neighbouring Arab states, which, once again, increased its pressure on the representatives of these states to intervene and come to the aid of the Palestinians.[40][41]...

...The conflict between Lehi and mainstream Jewish and subsequently Israeli organizations came to an end when Lehi was formally dissolved and integrated into the Israeli Defense Forces on May 31, 1948, its leaders getting amnesty from prosecution or reprisals...

...17 September 1948, Lehi assassinated UN mediator Count Folke Bernadotte who had been sent to broker a settlement in the dispute. The assassination was directed by Yehoshua Zettler and carried out by a four-man team led by Meshulam Makover...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)

My point is that Israel was founded by terrorists who started an ethnic cleansing war which continues to this day. Israel has never been "peace-loving". Not then and certainly not now.

United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza conflict

Therefore Israel has never met the original conditions they ageed to for UN recognition. A good analogy would be buying a brand new car for an agreed price and then never paying a cent. How many car dealerships would go along with that "agreement".

That's why I'm in favor of revoking Israel's UN recognition until they finally meet the agreed conditions for recognition. Until then they should have the same level of UN recognition as Palestine.
Last edited by earth_as_one; Jan 29th, 2010 at 12:47 PM..
 
Goober
Free Thinker
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by Canaduh View Post

The Native American "holocaust" happened before the media could latch onto it, not to mention the fact they dont own the media like the jews do. Every time the Israels do something or someone speaks out against them they play the holocaust get out of jail free card.

Canaduh

Your quote "the fact they dont own the media like the jews do. Every time the Israels do something or someone speaks out against them they play the holocaust get out of jail free card".

I had hoped that hate would not creep into this forum -

But Canaduh I have the opinion you would be quite comfortable at an Aryan Nations meeting. Well would you
 
Goober
Free Thinker
#25
EAO

You are always in favor of anything that punishes Israel - The reality you cannot face is they both got into it and they both have to get out of it - You are in favor of Israel being a State but Israel has made offers - Blaming everything on Israel is unrealistic and simplistic and shows a clear bias of hate. -
 
Liberalman
Free Thinker
#26
Israel has a right to exist like America has a right to exist.

All countries has a right to exist.

Palistinians has a right to live in peace and all they have to do is lay down their weapons and give up.
 
TenPenny
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by Liberalman View Post

and all they have to do is lay down their weapons and give up.

I think that's the sticking point, the giving up part.

Many people will fight long and hard to reclaim what was taken from them. The middle east will be a battle zone until both sides learn to compromise and co-exist.
 
Goober
Free Thinker
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by TenPenny View Post

I think that's the sticking point, the giving up part.

Many people will fight long and hard to reclaim what was taken from them. The middle east will be a battle zone until both sides learn to compromise and co-exist.

Ten Penny
A common thread that runs thru many posters is that Israel does not have the right to exist because it was literally destroyed and conquered by various countries over the many and I mean many years.

If that were valid then we only have to look at the 20th century to see how the world has changed - many countries that had disappeared suddenly existed and set their own course -

It is only Israel that has to continually justify their right to a State - Yes it disapeared but it became a reality on May 1 1948.

How many countries were told that if they declared themselves a State that they would be wiped off the map and we know what was meant by " wiped off the map" mass genocide-

If you check Every Arab State in the region declared War on Israel - and against all odds they won -
Not one Military strategist thought they would survive a War -

6 million Jews against 90 million well armed Arabs that could openly procure arms from most countries quite easily.

Clearly they never considered that when you now everyone will be slaughtered if you lose - well that was what drove a rag tag Israel Military to win. - If anyone doubts what would have occurred then check your history

Prior to the French -Prussian war of 1870 when the War was over and reparations were made by the losing country - very little land was lost - But this War was different and set the path for future wars - German absorbed Alsace - Lorraine -

The same occurred after WW1 & 2 -

I have included some maps to show how much the world changed and you will see massive transfers of land as part of the reparations - Germany is a prime example.


http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/ottoman_empire_1914.htm
Ottoman Empire 1914

WHKMLA : Historical Atlas, Germany Page

Germany 1914
http://www.zum.de/whkmla/histatlas/russia/haxrussia.html

Russia 1914
http://www.troy.k12.oh.us/~THS/Social_Studies/PDF/Spheres.pdf

China 1914
http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/imperialism_asia_map.htm

Asia 1914

http://www.scribd.com/doc/217593/Map-The-World-in-1945
World map 1945
 
earth_as_one
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by Liberalman View Post

Israel has a right to exist like America has a right to exist.

All countries has a right to exist.

Palistinians has a right to live in peace and all they have to do is lay down their weapons and give up.

When did that ever work? Can you give some historical examples where giving up led oppressed people to freedom and justice?

Do you think that tactic would work in other situations? For example, do you think that's the approach the Canadian military should take against the Taliban.

Also from your answer, it appears the you believe all Palestinians resisting Israel are armed and violent. Are you aware of Bil'in?

Quote:

Palestinians who see nonviolence as their weapon

Mohammed Khatib and his West Bank supporters hope to rally others to a peaceful campaign for statehood. But fellow Palestinians seem largely indifferent, and Israel's army is not amused.

November 04, 2009|Richard Boudreaux

BILIN, WEST BANK — Every Friday, Mohammed Khatib's forces assemble for battle with the Israeli army and gather their weapons: a bullhorn, banners -- and a fierce belief that peaceful protest can bring about a Palestinian state.

A few hundred strong, they march to the Israeli barrier that separates the tiny farming community of Bilin from much of its land. They chant and shout. A few teenagers throw stones.

Khatib helped launch the weekly ritual five years ago in an attempt to "re-brand" a Palestinian struggle often associated with rocket attacks and suicide bombers.


"Nonviolence is our most powerful weapon," says the media-savvy secretary of the Bilin village council. "If they cannot accuse us of terrorism, they cannot stop us. The world will support us."

The problem is, he doesn't get much support from other Palestinians. After two uprisings in two decades, they seem largely indifferent to his quixotic call for a third.

His message is a hard sell: Khatib, 35, is a modern-day Gandhi in a culture that enshrines the language of the gun, even if most Palestinians have never used one. And the risks of his activism are enormous.

The Israeli army has targeted him. He was arrested, severely beaten and threatened with death during a series of midnight raids on the village this summer....

Palestinians who see nonviolence as their weapon - Los Angeles Times

Israel has a long record of abusing unarmed non-violent protestors. See for yourself:
YouTube - Israeli soldier shoots unarmed prisoner

That's how the Israeli military treats unarmed non-violent protestors. The soldiers in the video were taken to court but their charges were dismissed and the officer got a promotion.

But if you sincerely believe Israel's leaders would offer Palestinians a fair and just peace if they were unarmed, then please explain why that didn't happen between 1949 (ceasefire) and 1964? (when some of them became armed and formed the PLO) During that time, Palestinians were mostly unarmed and waiting passively for freedom and justice. Despite promises by Israel, the US and the UN, that never happened. Instead Israel passed laws to seize all their property, razed hundreds of villages to the ground and built Jewish only enclaves thoughout the region. If what you say is true about Israel then Palestinians should have won freedom and justice during that 15 year period. Instead Israel screwed them over and over and over... while the UN ignored their complaints. That's why some of them became armed in 1964.

Let's cut to the chase. Israel has no intention of ever giving back what they've taken from Palestinians or compensating them for their loss. Their longterm goal is the complete annexation of Palestinian land. Palestinians are a "problem" for the Israelis and none of their "solutions" include Palestinian freedom and justice. If these people are ever going to have freedom and justice they are going to have to fight for it.

I don't support violence, but I do support the approach taken by the villagers of Bi'lin. In order for their non-violent approach to work, people have to be aware of their struggle and care. You are now aware, but do you care?
bilin-village.org | News
 
MHz
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by Goober View Post

Ten Penny
A common thread that runs thru many posters is that Israel does not have the right to exist because it was literally destroyed and conquered by various countries over the many and I mean many years.

I think it has something to do with the legality of UN Resolution 181 in the first place and that document wasn't followed even slightly by the Jews. Making refugees of the existing population voided that paper, that was their only claim to being there today.

The God imposed exile is to last until Christ's return, that is an event that cannot be mistaken for anything else than what it is. If the dead haven't risen then God is not involved. No end-time event can last longer than 10 years. Christ flattens the whole of Israel, builds His temple (complete with living water in the form of a wide river) and then the Jews are invited home. If it doesn't follow that pattern then God is not involved, oh almost forgot, every sinner (murderers, thieves, etc)in the world would be dead.
 

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