Christianity and the Birth of Science


Socrates the Greek
#1
Christianity and the Birth of Science

The real warfare,

Do religious leaders have the authority to make scientific judgments and do scientific leaders have the authority to make religious/metaphysical judgments?
 
Dexter Sinister
#2
I'm not buying the arguments at that link. Christianity was around for about 1500 years before real science reared its head anywhere in Christendom, and didn't really get going in a form we'd recognize as modern science until The Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution. If Christianity really fostered the development of science, the episode with Galileo wouldn't have happened. Religious authority generally tries to suppress science.

"Do religious leaders have the authority to make scientific judgments..." Sure, if they're also scientists. Some pretty good scientists have been Jesuits, for instance.
"...and do scientific leaders have the authority to make religious/metaphysical judgments?" Sure, to the extent that religion makes empirical claims about the nature of things.
 
Socrates the Greek
#3
Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter Sinister View Post

I'm not buying the arguments at that link. Christianity was around for about 1500 years before real science reared its head anywhere in Christendom, and didn't really get going in a form we'd recognize as modern science until The Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution. If Christianity really fostered the development of science, the episode with Galileo wouldn't have happened. Religious authority generally tries to suppress science.

"Do religious leaders have the authority to make scientific judgments..." Sure, if they're also scientists. Some pretty good scientists have been Jesuits, for instance.
"...and do scientific leaders have the authority to make religious/metaphysical judgments?" Sure, to the extent that religion makes empirical claims about the nature of things.

Good day Dexter, interesting how religion as you say at the Galileo time was in full force, as we know Galileo was jailed for life for believing that our solar system was heliocentric, while the authorities or government intertwined by Christianity believed it was geocentric.
The wrong that was inflicted on Galileo by Christianity back then, describes the fiber of religions at that time, Christianity in this case who had the ill conception of human existence.
Last edited by Socrates the Greek; May 27th, 2009 at 06:13 PM..
 
L Gilbert
#4
wow I didn't know the Chinese were Christians.

History of science and technology in China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Cliffy
#5
How come any discussion of science and civilization tend to ignore some of the first and oldest civilizations to have existed, the ones right here in the Americas? Many are as old or older than the Chinese and had the mathematical, architectual and astrological know how to rival any civilization. They certainly were centuries ahead of any Europeans, possibly millennium.
 
karrie
#6
I tend to not take my history/philosophy lessons from zoologist/geneticists.

I find it laughable that anyone would try to look at the development of science, technology, and industry, divorced of the factors of political stability, weather, geography, and access to resources. Oh yeah... it's the Judeo/Christian bit that was the key.
 
petros
#7
Quote:

I'm not buying the arguments at that link. Christianity was around for about 1500 years before real science reared its head anywhere in Christendom, and didn't really get going in a form we'd recognize as modern science until The Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution.

These fell from the sky with no explanation because science didn't exist?
 
petros
#8
By the way they fell in a land known as Khemet. Ever heard of al-Khemey or al Ghebra?
 
L Gilbert
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy View Post

How come any discussion of science and civilization tend to ignore some of the first and oldest civilizations to have existed, the ones right here in the Americas? Many are as old or older than the Chinese and had the mathematical, architectual and astrological know how to rival any civilization. They certainly were centuries ahead of any Europeans, possibly millennium.

Like who?
 
petros
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by L Gilbert View Post

Like who?

Ever heard of Cusco?
 
L Gilbert
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by petros View Post

By the way they fell in a land known as Khemet. Ever heard of al-Khemey or al Ghebra?

No. I know an al popow and an al zaharko, though.
 
karrie
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by petros View Post

These fell from the sky with no explanation because science didn't exist?

he said it didn't get going in what we'd recognize as modern science. Once the pyramids were built, did science keep on rolling in the region? No. Was it what we'd recognize as modern science? No.

Impressive as hell... yes. But, much like the Mayans, it never kept going from there.
 
petros
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by L Gilbert View Post

No. I know an al popow and an al zaharko, though.

I wasn't expecting you would.
 
petros
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by karrie View Post

he said it didn't get going in what we'd recognize as modern science. Once the pyramids were built, did science keep on rolling in the region? No. Was it what we'd recognize as modern science? No.

Impressive as hell... yes. But, much like the Mayans, it never kept going from there.

THe science that built that WAS the religion.

Never kept going? Nooooo more like it has been supressed by Pharoahs, Rabbis, Popes and kings
 
karrie
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by petros View Post

THe science that built that WAS the religion.

sorry, but what does that have to do with what I said?
 
petros
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by karrie View Post

sorry, but what does that have to do with what I said?

Impressive as hell... yes. But, much like the Mayans, it never kept going from there.

Science lead to religion. Gnosis. Very very few but the iniates into the "mystery schools" held this knowledge of the "sacred geometry and geomancy". By the time an iniate used his magic science to impress a culture they all used it unwisely and demised through greed and control.

The same story has been repeated countless times through history through the rise and fall of the acquisition of this gnosis.

This great Jew and Christian arc everyone thinks is magic is purely the gnosis stolen from Egypt.

The gnosis of sacred geometry and geomancy has been used against the common man since the dawn of civilization and is heavily in use today.
 
petros
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by petros View Post

Impressive as hell... yes. But, much like the Mayans, it never kept going from there.

Science lead to religion. Gnosis. Very very few but the iniates into the "mystery schools" held this knowledge of the "sacred geometry and geomancy". By the time an iniate used his magic science to impress a culture they all used it unwisely and demised through greed and control.

The same story has been repeated countless times through history through the rise and fall of the acquisition of this gnosis.

This great Jew and Christian arc everyone thinks is magic is purely the gnosis stolen from Egypt.

The gnosis of sacred geometry and geomancy has been used against the common man since the dawn of civilization and is heavily in use today.

Ever heard the story of the young builder (builders have the gnosis gained as an iniate apprentice) who trashed a temple because the holders of gnosis (Rabbis) were cheating the people and was killed for it because he was educating people about this gnosis? Where was this hapening? In the house God built. God is Gnosis and is the builder of the universe.
 
L Gilbert
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by petros View Post

I wasn't expecting you would.

al Khemey came along about 14th century. Christianity was rolling along quite well at the time. al Ghabra came along in about 13th century.
 
petros
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by L Gilbert View Post

al Khemey came along about 14th century. Christianity was rolling along quite well at the time. al Ghabra came along in about 13th century.

Came to Christianity at that time yeah. Nice to see you looked at least.
 
Cliffy
#20
Thus the Gnostic Gospels were suppressed by Constantine, and ordered burnt along with most scientific and "spiritual" knowledge. Only one copy survived the purge and today contains the knowledge that the RC and protestant, Jewish and Muslim clerics want to destroy and/or suppress. Because this knowledge makes null and void all present day religions. And they were written by the followers of Jesus.
 
petros
#21
Yuuuuuuup. The mathematic code aka Math hew(ed) and other books is fascinating it you know what to look for.
 
L Gilbert
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by petros View Post

Came to Christianity at that time yeah. Nice to see you looked at least.

I got curious. Most of the time it takes more than that to get me to look into history.
 
petros
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by L Gilbert View Post

I got curious. Most of the time it takes more than that to get me to look into history.

It would have been impossible to create what they did as long ago as they did without science (applied gnosis) be it sphyxsters or making dye for clothing. Dye making is mixing minerals to make a compound. That is gnosis (science) at work. The recipes for dyes wee worth crazy wealth and respect in those days.

Small things like that easily get looked over.
 
L Gilbert
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by petros View Post

It would have been impossible to create what they did as long ago as they did without science (applied gnosis) be it sphyxsters or making dye for clothing. Dye making is mixing minerals to make a compound. That is gnosis (science) at work. The recipes for dyes wee worth crazy wealth and respect in those days.

Small things like that easily get looked over.

I did mention the Chinese, you know: as in manufacturing paper, gunpowder, printing, compasses, acupuncture, etc. I didn't say I was ignorant of history; just not terribly interested in most of it.
 
Dexter Sinister
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by petros View Post

These fell from the sky with no explanation because science didn't exist?

I'd have thought somebody trained in the sciences would know better than to try on that particular logical fallacy. Actually it's two fallacies: ridicule rather than argument, and it attacks something I didn't say. It wasn't science that built those anyway, it was just good rule of thumb engineering, but that's irrelevant to what I wrote. My point was, in response to the OP, that Christianity and the rise of science are unrelated, Christianity has in fact done its best to suppress free inquiry for most of its history. I'll try it again with emphasis on the key point: "Christianity was around for about 1500 years before real science reared its head anywhere in Christendom..." Apparently you missed those last three words.

Christianity was several millennia in the future when those monuments were built, so whatever the ancient Egyptians knew about science and engineering, Christianity had nothing to do with it. The material at the link in the OP tries to argue that Christianity was an essential prerequisite for modern science to develop, I'm saying that argument is wrong.
 
L Gilbert
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter Sinister View Post

........Christianity has in fact done its best to suppress free inquiry for most of its history. ........

And is still trying with gusto sometimes.
Quote:

........The material at the link in the OP tries to argue that Christianity was an essential prerequisite for modern science to develop, I'm saying that argument is wrong.

You're right.