Is accepting equalization payments amoral?


atlanticaparty
#1
Author Peter Moreira in his book Backwater - Nova Scotia's Economic Decline ($16.95 + $2.20 tax and rising here in Nova Scotia) thinks so.

As he puts it equalization was devised back in the 1950s as a way to make sure that different regions could provide the same basic services. He makes the argument that there was and still is an implicit understanding that each 'have-not' province will work to become a 'have-province' and get off the system. But the three Maritime provinces have drawn equalization payments each year since. Equalization currently makes up almost a quarter of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick revenues and more than 40% of PEIs. It has become a structural item in budgets and provincial leaders are congratulated when they 'go to Ottawa and get a bit more'. How sad.

Unless a provincial government is willing to commit to a hard goal of eliminating the need for equalization payments by a certain date then isn't continuing to accept the payments just abusing the system? As the 'haves' have started to debate after half a century would they be justified in simply cutting us off?
 
darkbeaver
#2
Systems were made to be abused. It's the way of the world Atlantian. Why would you have us engage in honest benevolent works to elevate the torpid eastern folk. How will we ever get their productivity up to American standards? They seem a happy laid back mob of lobster eating pot heads uninterested in another new party of talking suits. American gold in productivity, that's right #1, and a seeping depression that's carving the remaining guts out of them, that's their prize for big ideas. Abusing the system? The system is the very apex of abuse in of itself. No thanks we'll keep the free money. Next you'll want us to stop picking apples or lay off fishing because it's system abuse.
 
atlanticaparty
#3
Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaver View Post

Systems were made to be abused.

Dark Beaver
Are you a Nova Scotian MLA?

Seriously, I understand the cynicism, but change is possible.
 
Bar Sinister
#4
Transfer payments are a familiar topic of contention between Canadians. The so called "Have" provinces resent having large amounts of their revenue handed over to the so called "Have - Not" provinces. However, the issue is not as simple as that. First of all very few Canadians would support the idea of certain parts of Canada turning into regions where basic social services and basic infrastructure do not exist. Also, the Have and Have-not provinces can change over time. At one time Alberta (a province that feels itself very hard done by in terms of equalizations payments) was a have-not province. Then oil was discovered. The oil changed everything, but few modern Albertans pay much attention to the fact that much of the cash generated from oil comes from shipping it to consumers in other less fortunate parts of Canada; nor are they aware of the fact that for years the oil industry in Alberta was subsidized by the rest of Canada by requiring that other provinces purchase Alberta oil instead of the cheaper foreign oil. Finally, what would happen if equalization payments were ended? One effect would be the large scale movement of Canadians from poorer provinces to wealthier provinces; something that happens to a certain extent anyway. This would simply be a transfer of one province's problems to another, similar to what has happened in many parts of the US.
 
atlanticaparty
#5
I don't think we are questioning equalization in general. Rather is it ok for provinces who have been receiving equalization since inception to not have a concrete plan to eventually get off equalization, even if it takes 20 years?
 
Bar Sinister
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by atlanticaparty View Post

I don't think we are questioning equalization in general. Rather is it ok for provinces who have been receiving equalization since inception to not have a concrete plan to eventually get off equalization, even if it takes 20 years?

I did not mean to infer that a perpetual dependence on transfer payments is a good thing, merely that the issue is a bit more complex than a straight exchange of wealth. Ideally all provinces would luck out the way Newfoundland has and no longer need transfers of wealth from other provinces.
 
JLM
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by atlanticaparty View Post

Author Peter Moreira in his book Backwater - Nova Scotia's Economic Decline ($16.95 + $2.20 tax and rising here in Nova Scotia) thinks so.

As he puts it equalization was devised back in the 1950s as a way to make sure that different regions could provide the same basic services. He makes the argument that there was and still is an implicit understanding that each 'have-not' province will work to become a 'have-province' and get off the system. But the three Maritime provinces have drawn equalization payments each year since. Equalization currently makes up almost a quarter of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick revenues and more than 40% of PEIs. It has become a structural item in budgets and provincial leaders are congratulated when they 'go to Ottawa and get a bit more'. How sad.

Unless a provincial government is willing to commit to a hard goal of eliminating the need for equalization payments by a certain date then isn't continuing to accept the payments just abusing the system? As the 'haves' have started to debate after half a century would they be justified in simply cutting us off?

Is it somethng people should concern themselves with? A province's financial situation is to some degree, constrained by its natural resources. But maybe it can provide services to other provinces which in turn they should be compensated for. For example New Brunswick seems to be saddled with all the Gun Registry rigmarole, which in my opinion should be very highly compensated from Ottawa. Imagine the hatred that the people working in that endeavour are on the receiving end of.
 
darkbeaver
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by atlanticaparty View Post

Dark Beaver
Are you a Nova Scotian MLA?

Seriously, I understand the cynicism, but change is possible.

I agree, change is possible. As soon as you have drafted a plan to terminate government borrowing from private banks and roll back globalism, send us a copy, until then you are shuffling the same old deck with predictable results. Nova Scotian MLAs are spectacularly stupid of that there can be no doubt. I was asked to run once a long time ago but was saved by an serendipitous attack of uncommon rare good sense that bothered me not at all before or since. Try to imagine the number of "hope & change tunes" played to the docile western voter in the last thirty years.
 
darkbeaver
#9
PRINCIPLES

Guiding Vision
Quote:

To help each Nova Scotian achieve their unbounded potential.

The promotion and protection of the individuals unbounded potential is in the greatest part responsible for the terrible economic disaster sweeping the globe at this very moment in time. The individual has no such right of unbounded potential, surly you understand what unbounded means.


Macro policies
Quote:

A reformed voting system where every vote counts and every vote is equal.

You will remove the corporate influence then?

Quote:

A political system with full separation of political powers making it policy forward, rooted in, answerable to, focused on and involving citizens.

How many times has the identical rhetorical scrawl has been employed to pat us on our collective heads?

Quote:

Respecting the diversity of Atlantica Canadians while recognizing our strength through economic and political unity.

see above

Quote:

Economic growth and job creation through the private sector and free markets as the engine of the economy.

Here you display the clear and common disconnect from the reality of the current paradigm by suggesting that the very root and cause of the present catastrophic economic destruction should be resurrected for a fourth or fifth act of an evil old play that no one any longer enjoys but the tiny clog of dung at the top. You do understand that there has been no economic growth for the past three decades following your suggested remedy. Real income to real workers has remained stagnant since the early seventies so how in the name of Dog do expect to be taken seriously. Perhaps you think the Nova Scotian voter is in reality a bloc of witless fools.



Quote:

Steady, gradual reduction in government spending and taxation while maintaining a firm commitment to balanced budgets.

We want a steady increasing public expendeture which we will extract from the capitalists and the resources of the province when we close the borders to capital flight and begin unavoidable reindustrialisation. We will never balance budgets while we continue to use private capital to finance the province without we deprive the electorate to satisfy the banks.


Quote:

Government must ensure high-quality infrastructure, health care and education for citizens.

But it must not borrow from private capital to do it and it must keep the private sector out of the schools and hospitals. P3 has been and is an embarassing debacle.

Quote:

Laws must respect individual freedom while holding the individual responsible for his or her behavior.

A perenial platform filler available at Walfart in the bulk political swarf department.

So in closing I see absolutely no change whatever in your offered position from the current collection of traveling Hope & Change revivals.
Last edited by darkbeaver; Mar 3rd, 2010 at 09:44 AM..
 
JLM
#10
"Government must ensure high-quality infrastructure, health care and education for citizens."

Yep, ensurance without involvement is the fine line they have to tread.
 
atlanticaparty
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaver View Post

You will remove the corporate influence then?

Of course. Businesses are not voters. We support the NDP's ban on corporate donations to parties. Donations should only come from private individuals. We also oppose business subsidies which also can exert corporate influence in politics.

Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaver View Post

How many times has the identical rhetorical scrawl has been employed to pat us on our collective heads?

Darkbeaver,
You seem tremendously cynical about AP. Is it a waste of time to show you our good faith?

Have you looked at our specific political reform proposals?
 
atlanticaparty
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaver View Post

I

terminate government borrowing from private banks and roll back globalism,

Were would the Nova Scotia government borrow from then?
What private banks do you mean?
How would NS roll back globalism? And why?
 
darkbeaver
#13
[QUOTE]
Quote: Originally Posted by atlanticaparty View Post

Of course. Businesses are not voters. We support the NDP's ban on corporate donations to parties. Donations should only come from private individuals. We also oppose business subsidies which also can exert corporate influence in politics.

There should be no private donations whatever all expenses for elections and party business should be fixed and fully transparent. A wealthy individual could with ease eclipse all other donations in total. I do not oppose business subsidies everything possible should be done to promote small and medium business ventures in the Maritimes but only when it can be demonstrated that a positive social benefit will ensue. All of them must be engineered to drive out the multinationals and rebuild Maritime industrial capacity. A simple example would be wood products which should be closed to export of raw wood products, imagine the employment and wealth generation if we started supplying our own markets for finished wood products from our own domestic factories.



Quote:

Darkbeaver,
You seem tremendously cynical about AP. Is it a waste of time to show you our good faith?

While the cynicism may be shocking to you I can assure you it is by no means historically novel, this is what you must come to expect as the norm during the lead up and entry into global revolutionary times. It certainly does not indicate that your particular parties stated agenda is in any way distinct from the vulgar mean that we in the west have come to recognize as party politics defined by the crust rather than the root.

Quote:

Have you looked at our specific political reform proposals?

I will constructively criticize when I've done so.
 
darkbeaver
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by atlanticaparty View Post

Quote:

Were would the Nova Scotia government borrow from then?

What private banks do you mean?
How would NS roll back globalism? And why?



COMER is bringing a constitutional challenge to the loan provisions of the Bank of Canada Act,
with respect to loans by the Bank to the federal and provincial governments, particularly as it affects and impacts on municipal infrastructures and the governments calculation of “capital” and “debt.”

We are also challenging the Banks secrecy provisions vis-à-vis the interaction and compliance with private international bankers who are not accountable to any government.
As the case is in progress, we cannot comment further on it. For background information review our Bank of Canada Tutorial.

August/09 Correspondence with COMER re: this challenge and Nova Scotia Municipalities and the Bank of Canada

Sign our online Petition.

The challenge is very expensive. If you would like to support monetary and economic reform-
here's your opportunity! A donation of any amount would be much appreciated!


Quote:

What private banks do you mean?

The ones we borrow from.


Quote:

How would NS roll back globalism? And why?

The how would be to promote regional enterprise of course and the why would be because that my friend is where all the jobs went. Without manufacture and marketing of textiles, furniture, footwear and food we will always have a suppressed economy. There is no option to promotion of all these and more previously regionally produced consumer products. We cannot continue to rely on Chinese imports which do absolutely nothing to arrest the decaying employment situation. If you don't understand what destruction globalization has wrought in our region you will never reverse the course of this depression. If there is to be any change in employment stats there must first be regional manufacture for the region and engineered to meet regional needs specifically and maybe even exclusively, certainly every other region in the west is already thinking and acting in this direction. Imports must be strictly curtailed, across the board, permanently.
 
atlanticaparty
#15
Hey dark beaver,

Are you involved in COMER? If so good for you. I peeked at the site. Join our debate forum and start a thread on what COMER is so we can discuss it.

Sorry your answers didn't come through clearly
From who would the Nova Scotia government borrow from?
What private banks do you mean? (Names)

AP is all for regional enterprise and local entrepreneurs. In our opinion it is the only way to build a prosperous region.
 
darkbeaver
#16
[quote=atlanticaparty;1229889]
Quote:

Hey dark beaver,

Are you involved in COMER? If so good for you. I peeked at the site. Join our debate forum and start a thread on what COMER is so we can discuss it.

Have a look at their program while I look at yours deeper.

Quote:

Sorry your answers didn't come through clearly
From who would the Nova Scotia government borrow from?

You will see in the comer material what the nature of our modern banking scam really is and you will begin to understand why we can never prosper with private financing of public works, and how the situation has evolved to its sorry state today.
Quote:

What private banks do you mean? (Names)

All of them without exception.

Quote:

AP is all for regional enterprise and local entrepreneurs. In our opinion it is the only way to build a prosperous region.

I know that and have known it since you first posted but you realize that the language you have used is very dated and very commercial at this time early in the twenty-first it blends in with the competition and becomes one with the wall. You will never inspire a mass following unless you change the nature of the rhetoric to reflect conditions in the burgs and on the farms. There is only one way out of the present economic mess and that is to farm and to build, nothing is more important to the Maritimes as small and medium manufacturing and complete agriculture from the field to the table. If we remain to stupid to provide jobs and products for ourselves using our natural advantages then there is no hope of a sustainable recovery at all. I can't buy a Nova Scotia chicken hog or side of beef in my own province because the business has been trucked in from the slave states and the profit is trucked out by the megastores, very little of it above subsistence stays to work in the Maritimes. If it's earned here it should stay here working its way through the indiginous market where you bloody well know it multiplies employment and business. If we can stop the gold bleeding off from our region we can make meaningful long term solid change, there is no other way.
 
atlanticaparty
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaver View Post

You will see in the comer material what the nature of our modern banking scam really is and you will begin to understand why we can never prosper with private financing of public works, and how the situation has evolved to its sorry state today.

It didn't make sense when I read it. Just explain it to me briefly.

Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaver View Post

All of them without exception.

You mean like TD, CIBC, Citibank ...?
 
darkbeaver
#18
A Failed Economic System: The World Crisis of Capitalist Globalization The Economic Impact on China
- by John Bellamy Foster - 2010-03-03
 
pfezziwig
#19
It may not be immoral to accept them but it indicates an intellectual bankruptcy in Nova Scotian's for becoming dependent upon handouts. Nothing moves in NS without federal funding.

Now we have 'achieved' a level of debt and taxes that insures it will take a generation to change our ways...not that the majority of voters want to change, most are high paid government employees who don't care about the future (well, maybe their own future but thats it)
 

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