The shame of being american....


ckeo
#1
I dont know if anybody here are aware of these facts

But it does bring a number of questions to mind... such as if israel is after hezabollah.... why are they bombing civillians ?

And why does the US proclaim to be the great liberators from atrocities when they themselves commit war crimes and crimes against humanity ? ( they are supplying arms to israel )
 
Frozen Canuck
#2
Is this post for real?

Hezbollah hides and operates among civilians. Israel does its best to avoid and minimize any civilian deaths, but this unfortunate situation can be blamed squarely on Hezbollah. If they stopped using innocent people as cover, this sort of thing wouldn't happen.

And if the US didn't supply Israel with weapons to defend itself, Israel would have been blown off the map years ago. Funny how people who are all up in arms about "crimes against humanity" apparently don't think obliterating a country and its people would be a big deal...
 
ckeo
#3
and.... israel obliterating lebanon and its innocent people and kids is ok by your standards then ?
and... at least read the articles and look at the pictures before posting so that you at least understand the issue presented.
 
thomaska
#4
Quote: Originally Posted by ckeo

and.... israel obliterating lebanon and its innocent people and kids is ok by your standards then ?
and... at least read the articles and look at the pictures before posting so that you at least understand the issue presented.

Aeon, is this you?

Who is the worse offender, those that bomb the building containing women and children, or those that hide behind the skirts of said women and children?

You post an article from some extreme lefty website and proclaim it to be gospel, so the rest of us must agree with it, huh?
 
Frozen Canuck
#5
Israel has damaged and destroyed buildings and infrastruction in southern Lebanon. That's a far cry from obliterating the country. Their stated aim is to drive Hezbollah from positions from which they can attack Israel. I can't say I blame them. Would you want a terrorist group stopped from lobbing rockets into Canada?

Yes, the loss of life is tragic. If there was another way, I'd be all for it. But what do you suggest? Allowing Hezbollah to attack Israel at will? There are countries and groups, Hezbollah being one of them, who can't stand the fact that Israel exists. They want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. Tell me how you would reason peacefully with such an enemy...I'm truly curious.

War is a terrible thing. It's messy, and people die. When facing an enemy who has no problem with placing innocents in harm's way, what can you do except warn civilians to get out, and attempt to avoid targeting them? Both of which Israel has done.

The fact that the Lebanese people are suffering and dying is horrible. The difference between us I guess, is you seem to blame Israel and the US. I blame Hezbollah. Hezbollah is the one who instigated the events that led to this. Hezbollah is the one who hides behind children and the elderly.

And finally, (I know this is getting lengthy) I did take a look at the website you linked to. From the negative story about Bush that was front and centre, I'm pretty sure I know what slant the site takes regarding the middle east crisis. No offense, if you are the owner, but forgive me if I question its...impartiality in the articles. And in any case, I sympathize with the plight of the Lebanese people...I don't need an article to feel that...

The vast majority of the blame for the current situation though, lies with Hezbollah.
 
ckeo
#6
ahh... now we are getting some worthwhile discussion.

I dont side with either party and am not placing blame anywhere. im just interested in what peoples opinions are. and the links to the articles were written by americans. The articles on the website are posted according to the number of reads that they get and since 90% of the visitors are from the US then of course G. bush is going to be popular.

So... im guessing people only want to hear a cushy one side of an argument ? and not look at things from both angles...
 
ckeo
#7
Thomaska: Who is Aeon ?

I never asked anybody to agree with anything. but in regards to your question... nobody is any better. and thats my point. Why side with anyone on the issue when both parties are committing attrocities.

Quote: extreme lefty website
Israel's ambassador to Canada has dismissed a warning from Canadian jurist Louise Arbour, the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, that war crimes charges may be warranted against Israel and Hezbollah if measures aren't taken to protect civilians.

[...]

Arbour issued a statement on Wednesday saying that indiscriminate shelling of cities constitutes a foreseeable and unacceptable targeting of civilians and that bombardment of sites with alleged military significance, but resulting invariably in the killing of innocent civilians, is unjustifiable.
 
ckeo
#8
Frozen Canuck:

"From the negative story about Bush that was front and centre..." which article were you referring to ?


by the way... nice quote in your signature... where did it come from ?
 
iARTthere4iam
#9
honestly, doesn't anyone read history. Israel can hardly be blamed as the agressor, it is responding to rocket attacks on it's cities and the capture of it's soldiers. Everyone clamours for Israel to withdraw from Lebanon that they occupied to stop terrorist attack, they do and are attacked by terrorists. Now, demands are made to leave lebanon alone. why doesn't the UN in lebanon do something when Hizbollah attacks Israel. Why doesn't the Lebanese army control it's borders.
 
Frozen Canuck
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by ckeo

Frozen Canuck:

"From the negative story about Bush that was front and centre..." which article were you referring to ?


by the way... nice quote in your signature... where did it come from ?

Something about Bush covering up Abu Graib, I believe.

And thank you. I'm not sure sure who the quote originally belonged to. Possibly Aesop, although I've seen it credited to others as well. Now it seems to have been adopted as the unofficial UN motto...
 
Frozen Canuck
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by iARTthere4iam

Why doesn't the Lebanese army control it's borders.

I don't know if this was rhetorical or not, but the Lebanese government/army doesn't control all its territory, simply because it is too weak to do so. It is unable to challenge Hezbollah in the south, even if it wanted to.
 
Andem
Free Thinker
#12
I wouldn't put the blame squarely on anybody, actually.

Israel isn't the only party attacking areas with civilians. A friend of mine went on vacation to Israel in Haifa a couple of weeks ago and had to come back home to Germany 3 days into the trip because residential buildings 100-200 metres away were being blown up by rockets.
 
Nuggler
#13
And all this has what do to with "shame of being American."?

What shame are you referring to.? Ordinary Americans, as we have seen, cannot do squat with regards their country's foreign policies.

Someone once said that the "Arabs" (I'm paraphrasing here, so that might not be the term used), can afford to lose every battle they engage in. The Israelies cannot afford to lose any.

They lose one battle, and they're in the ocean. It's over.

Now, given those facts; if someone is putting a rocket launcher in the courtyard of a church, mosque, temple, house, etc., and trying to kill me, I am going to do my best to blow the hell out of that place. Casualties be damned. Innocent people be damned. We would do the same if some nutbar was rocketing Canada.

Shame of being American....Balls!!.........Buy some heavier test line so you can troll more effectively.

Ugg.
 
ckeo
#14
oldnugly: it wasnt my title....
it was quoting the same title from two different stories.

If someone wrote such an article about being canadian... then id want to know about it.

And i seriously dont think we would do the same thing.
So your ok with isreal purposely bombing refugee camps?

And if a hezabollah ran into your house to hide then you would cheer the army on as they bombed and killed your innocent family ?
 
Nuggler
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by ckeo

oldnugly: it wasnt my title....
it was quoting the same title from two different stories.

If someone wrote such an article about being canadian... then id want to know about it.

And i seriously dont think we would do the same thing.
So your ok with isreal purposely bombing refugee camps?

And if a hezabollah ran into your house to hide then you would cheer the army on as they bombed and killed your innocent family ?

If hezabollah terrorists set up rocket launchers in refugee camps.......yep.

If a hezabollah ran into my house, I would probably kill him and run the hell out.......fast. If I wasen't fast enough, I'd be one more statistic.

You can't say is someone ok with this and that. They have a nasty little war going on over there. Course no one wants to see innocents killed, Arab or Israeli. I do support Israel in their right to defend their homeland. We WOULD do the same in the same circumstances IMHO. Read about the dirty tricks played by our side during WW2. It was necessary. I don't support any "aggression" by either party.

Here's an interesting point. I was in high school in the late 50's, early 60's........AT THAT TIME there was tension and hatred in the Middle East. The UN was supposed to change all that. Europe and the US and Canada were supposed to help. Well, everyone's "helped"; and look what we got. Same shit, different pile.

So, I guess it doesn't matter a whole hell of a lot who supports or does not support what or whom. It just makes good yap yap on thousands of forums like this, signifying not a lot. They seem intent in a "lasting war".

If the Arabs quit tomorrow, for good, never to fight again, would the Israelies stay out of Palestine??. Would they stop any territorial ambitions?? I dunno. Like I said, good fodder for forums.

Sorry. I thought the header was yours.......who's ta know?

My head hurts.

 
ckeo
#16
lol... yea well said.
 
Dexter Sinister
No Party Affiliation
#17
There's no shame in being American. I think there should be a certain amount of shame attached to some of the people currently running the United States (Rumsfeld and Cheney come to mind, and Paul Wolfowitz before he went off to the World Bank; fascist jerks, all of 'em, in my not very humble opinion), but realistically the United States isn't behaving any differently than any other imperial power has in the last few centuries. The United States is in fact generally a good deal more humane and civilized about it than most nations have been.

And regarding the specific accusations at the link provided in the OP, I don't for a second believe the Israeli Defence Force is targeting civilians, nor do I think what the IDF is doing in any sense constitutes a war crime, nor is the U.S. complicit in war crimes in this context. Frozen Canuck had the rights of it in the second post. Israel is surrounded and infiltrated by groups that have openly stated their aim to destroy it; how would you expect Israel to respond when one of them kills and kidnaps Israelis in Israel, lobs rockets into urban areas (so tell me who's really targeting civilians)...? Israelis have never tolerated any violations of their territory (and why should they?), there have always been thunderous reprisals, and I can't find it in myself to blame them.
 
I think not
#18
Well said Dex, as usual.
 
wallyj
#19
I'll let others cover the current crisis. The article you use as facts compare the AG prison crap,(naked piles of men etc.) as being on the same level as videotapes of beheadings!! Oh the shame of living life with blinders on. Praise god and pass the bullets.
 
iARTthere4iam
#20
Posted: Jul 23rd, 2006 3:22 pm Post subject: Re: The shame of being american....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

iARTthere4iam wrote:
Why doesn't the Lebanese army control it's borders.


I don't know if this was rhetorical or not, but the Lebanese government/army doesn't control all its territory, simply because it is too weak to do so. It is unable to challenge Hezbollah in the south, even if it wanted to.

Yes, it was a rhetorical question illustrating the power vacuum in the region that allowed Hezbollah to set up shop.
Lebanon was once a jewel in the region. that all changed with the PLO setting up a state within a state with no regard for their sovereinty (this was after losing favour in jordan when they tried to assasinate the king) . Israel had to go in to stop the shelling of northern Israel. Hezbolla was formed to rid Lebanon of Israel. When Israel left, Hezbolla stayed and has caused the problem this time round.
 
ckeo
#21
Dexter Sinister:

Its actually israeli occupied territory ( Shebaa Farms ) and israel was frequently invading lebanese airspace.

And yea... i guess they dont target civillians.


The amount of mis-information and unsubstantiated facts in the media that people believe with out researching and looking at the facts is utterly unbelievable.
 
fuflans
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by ckeo

Dexter Sinister:

Its actually israeli occupied territory ( Shebaa Farms ) and israel was frequently invading lebanese airspace.

Do you mean that Israel is occupying Lebanese territory? I thought the region 'belonged' to Syria (not Lebanon) when it was captured in 1967?
 
I think not
#23
I'm ashamed.

*runs away crying*
 
ckeo
#24
According to wikipedia
nope... it actually goes waaaayyyyy.... back.... the french are actually to blame. Syria and lebanon both agree that it belongs to lebanon.

Also from wikipedia An interesting history of hezbollah.
 
fuflans
#25
Interesting read. I guess it's one of those things that will always be fought over. However, the Wikipedia entry seems to say that the region did indeed belong to Syria at the time of the 1967 war (although the inhabitants may have felt differently). I liked the bit about the faked map. I wonder what caused the Syrians to change their minds?
 
ckeo
#26
im not entirely sure.... im guessing that the area is a good military vantage point tho im not sure... it dosnt really appear to be.

a better interpretation i guess... would be syria adding fuel to the fire for hezbollah.
 
fuflans
#27
You're probably right. The whole thing is one big mess.
 
agentkgb
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by Frozen Canuck

Is this post for real?

Hezbollah hides and operates among civilians. Israel does its best to avoid and minimize any civilian deaths, but this unfortunate situation can be blamed squarely on Hezbollah. If they stopped using innocent people as cover, this sort of thing wouldn't happen.

And if the US didn't supply Israel with weapons to defend itself, Israel would have been blown off the map years ago. Funny how people who are all up in arms about "crimes against humanity" apparently don't think obliterating a country and its people would be a big deal...

With all due respect, it's not as if Israel keeps its military bases as far from civilian towns as possible. Israeli military bases are often so near towns you can't tell what Hezbollah was actually aiming at. Hezbollah doesn't have US-supplied laser-guided missiles like Israel does.
 
The Project Man
#29
People have this irrational notion of war. War is a brutal animal. Where the idea came that only a selected few can be picked off, I have no idea. The rules have change. We nolonger setup like a chess board and simply have at it. The main problem is the inter-woven enemy. I am not saying anyone is correct. We all know what war is, death on a platter. Served cold to those who appose it, and served red hot to those involved, including civilians. This is an unfortunate thing. The soldiers know when they enlist they may have to go fight, not for right or wrong but at the behest of their government, whomever is calling the shots. It a shame for anyone to go and fight being oblivious to the true cause.

Ashamed of being an American, never. Ashamed of some of the BS we pull, certainly.


Thank you,
 
jimmoyer
#30
Every argument ends up being all about what
the King of the Forest said,

LET GO OF MY TAIL.

RRRRR

RUFF !!

Not duke nor p-p-p-rrrince !

But King of the Forrrrrrrest !!!
 

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