Of course Quebec can separate... (Quebec Separate)


Cannuck
No Party Affiliation
#61
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBear View Post

This coming from the clown princes of failing to back up any of his claims ?

That would be debating. I've told you numerous times, I'm not here to debate you. I'm here to be entertained by you. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?
 
CDNBear
#62
Quote: Originally Posted by Cannuck View Post

That would be debating. I've told you numerous times, I'm not here to debate you. I'm here to be entertained by you. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

Because you're the first person I've ever come across on line, that was entertained by someone making them look like an uneducated hack. In multiple threads.
 
Cannuck
No Party Affiliation
#63
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBear View Post

Because you're the first person I've ever come across on line, that was entertained by someone making them look like an uneducated hack. In multiple threads.

You are in error. I'm entertained by someone who thinks they are making people look like uneducated hacks. If only you were as good as you think you are.
 
CDNBear
#64
Quote: Originally Posted by Cannuck View Post

You are in error. I'm entertained by someone who thinks they are making people look like uneducated hacks. If only you were as good as you think you are.

Then why the hissy fit pumpkin? Geeze, i thought tears were going to shoot out of your posts the other day.

Then you stormed off for a couple days.

Gawd it was riotous.

The great Cannuck, bested by a lowly gov't teat leeching injin.
 
Cannuck
No Party Affiliation
#65
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBear View Post

... i thought tears were going to shoot out of your posts the other day.

I'm not surprised. You seem to think a lot of things that aren't grounded in reality.

Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBear View Post

.Then you stormed off for a couple days.

Stormed off? Oh dear. Is that what you call it when people are doing other things. I have an early day tomorrow so i must sign off and "storm off" to bed.
 
CDNBear
#66
Quote: Originally Posted by Cannuck View Post

I'm not surprised.

Neither are we. We've seen you perform the same linguistic acrobatics time and time again.
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Stormed off?

As per the norm, when you embarrass yourself.
 
Machjo
#67
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBear View Post

How so?

How so?

Total sovereignty could potentially harm Canada's access to Quebec's market and vice versa. Both sides could potentially suffer. Now of course I would not fight a war over Quebec ceseding completely unless Quebec was in serious breach of human rights, national and international laws obviously, but I would still fight it diplomatically.

Quote:

Whatever gets them to pay it back.
The point is, in a negotiation, if they want out, this is one of the things they'll have to concede to.

I honestly don't doubt even Queebc sovereignists themselves concede to that already, as long as it's a fair division.

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I think the bulk of southern Quebec made their choice perfectly clear.

And in a province-wide election, they'd have a chance to do so again.

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Done, it was almost a unanimous Non!

And again, in a province-wide election, they'd have a chance to do so again.

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Nope, they want their own country, they can have it.

As for sharing a common currency, and especially citizenship, it's not about sticking it to the sovereignists but looking out for the people. Remember that those Quebecers with family in Ontario are likely among the most federalist of the bunch. Why hurt families just out of rage. Certainly reason must come before sentimentality and emotionalism.

As for a common currency, separate currencies are essentially a tax of sorts. Let's not kid ourselves that even with NAFTA for example, currency traders and brokers still take a cut in all currency transactions. Do you honestly think that when you use Canadian dollars across the border or vice versa that the company isn't raising the conversion rate to compensate for the inconvenience to them?

the same would apply with Quebec and Canada having separate currencies. Just another hidden tarrif or tax with the broker middle man skimming off the top.
 
CDNBear
+1
#68
Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo View Post

Total sovereignty could potentially harm Canada's access to Quebec's market and vice versa.

What resources would they have left, after they lost Ruperts Land and the Seaway.

Besides cheap labour and some softwood products.

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I honestly don't doubt even Queebc sovereignists themselves concede to that already, as long as it's a fair division.

Hey, if the Quebecouis want out, they're going to have to leave with what they came with.

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And in a province-wide election, they'd have a chance to do so again.

Sure.

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And again, in a province-wide election, they'd have a chance to do so again.

And youthink they'll change their collective minds? I highly doubt that. Especially since the Quebecouis make bigots like Cannuck, look like angels.

Quote:

As for sharing a common currency, and especially citizenship, it's not about sticking it to the sovereignists but looking out for the people. Remember that those Quebecers with family in Ontario are likely among the most federalist of the bunch. Why hurt families just out of rage. Certainly reason must come before sentimentality and emotionalism.

Where did you see emotions? I'm not trying to stick it to anyone. They want their own country. I'm saying if that's what they want, they can have the whole package, currency, passports, citizenship.

Quote:

As for a common currency, separate currencies are essentially a tax of sorts. Let's not kid ourselves that even with NAFTA for example, currency traders and brokers still take a cut in all currency transactions. Do you honestly think that when you use Canadian dollars across the border or vice versa that the company isn't raising the conversion rate to compensate for the inconvenience to them?

What dfoes that have to do with Quebec using their own currency.

Quote:

the same would apply with Quebec and Canada having separate currencies. Just another hidden tarrif or tax with the broker middle man skimming off the top.

That's what goes along with having your own country.
Last edited by CDNBear; Apr 16th, 2011 at 08:39 AM..
 
Machjo
#69
I agree that those who'd voted into federation would likely do so again for the most part. I was just pointing it out as a matter of principle.

As for currencies, sure if Quebec wants to shoot itself and us in the feet and have its own citizenship and currency, by all means go for it. All I'm saying I'd hope Canada would be smart enough to not do them the honours. We should offer them the option of common currency and citizenship if they want it.

And as for countries sharing common currencies and citizenship, that's not unheard of. Take the Eurozone as an example of a shared international currency, and Puerto Rico and the US as an example of two countries sharing a common citizenship. All we need is some imagination. If Quebec decides to shoot us and them in the feet, well by all means. But for us to shoot ourselves and Quebec in the collective feet would be plain stupid.
 
CDNBear
#70
Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo View Post

I agree that those who'd voted into federation would likely do so again for the most part. I was just pointing it out as a matter of principle.

And as a matter of principle, Natives in Quebec, don't trust a sovereign Quebec.

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As for currencies, sure if Quebec wants to shoot itself and us in the feet and have its own citizenship and currency, by all means go for it. All I'm saying I'd hope Canada would be smart enough to not do them the honours. We should offer them the option of common currency and citizenship if they want it.

I disagree.

Quote:

And as for countries sharing common currencies and citizenship, that's not unheard of. Take the Eurozone as an example of a shared international currency, and Puerto Rico and the US as an example of two countries sharing a common citizenship.

And look at the UK, the ones that opted out of the Euro, hows their economy, compared to those that dove in?

Quote:

All we need is some imagination. If Quebec decides to shoot us and them in the feet, well by all means. But for us to shoot ourselves and Quebec in the collective feet would be plain stupid.

Wouldn't separating from Canada, alone, be tantamount to shooting us in the face?
 
petros
+2
#71  Top Rated Post
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBear View Post

Wouldn't separating from Canada, alone, be tantamount to shooting us in the face?

It would start World War Cree
 
CDNBear
#72
Quote: Originally Posted by petros View Post

It would start World War Cree

 
petros
#73
Seriously, I feel it would come to that. A coup the day they declared independance would be fitting.
 
CDNBear
#74
Quote: Originally Posted by petros View Post

Seriously, I feel it would come to that. A coup the day they declared independance would be fitting.

I know the Cree have no interest in being occupied or subjugated by the French.
 
petros
+1
#75
If they are anything like the guys out here they too would have buried sea cans full of "goodies".
 
CDNBear
#76
Quote: Originally Posted by petros View Post

If they are anything like the guys out here they too would have buried sea cans full of "goodies".

A very real possibility.

I know that after Oka, the MWS made some very interesting purchases, and formulated tactics to protect their land.
 
petros
#77
Same bat time frame, same bat channel. More too after the "Arse Money" came out.
 
Machjo
#78
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBear View Post

And as a matter of principle, Natives in Quebec, don't trust a sovereign Quebec.

Sure, but that's up to them to decide.

Quote:

And look at the UK, the ones that opted out of the Euro, hows their economy, compared to those that dove in?

The UK's economy has been struggling too. But also bear in mind that other factors are involved here. Just to take one simple example, according to Francois Grin, a Swiss economist, the EU subsidizes the UK economy to the tune of about 17 yo 18 thousand million euros annually through the language teaching industry alone, and also faces the burden of spending much more than the UK on language learning so as to access foreign markets. This gives the Uk a big advantage regardless of currencies. A fairer comparison would be how Eurozone countries have fared prior to and since monetary union, taking various other influencing factors since.

Common sense dictates that money brokers specializing in eurozone currencies lost their jobs, and others likely saw their profits at least drop somewhat (i.e. it cut out the middle man somewhat by eliminating some make work jobs that really produce nothing in the economy but merely feed of currency transactions).

Wouldn't separating from Canada, alone, be tantamount to shooting us in the face?[/QUOTE]

I bet the airline industry saved some money too in eliminating the middleman at least in inter-eurozone transactions.
 
CDNBear
#79
Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo View Post

Sure, but that's up to them to decide.

Like I said, it was almost unanimous.

Quote:

The UK's economy has been struggling too. But also bear in mind that other factors are involved here. Just to take one simple example, according to Francois Grin, a Swiss economist, the EU subsidizes the UK economy to the tune of about 17 yo 18 thousand million euros annually through the language teaching industry alone, and also faces the burden of spending much more than the UK on language learning so as to access foreign markets. This gives the Uk a big advantage regardless of currencies. A fairer comparison would be how Eurozone countries have fared prior to and since monetary union, taking various other influencing factors since.

Common sense dictates that money brokers specializing in eurozone currencies lost their jobs, and others likely saw their profits at least drop somewhat (i.e. it cut out the middle man somewhat by eliminating some make work jobs that really produce nothing in the economy but merely feed of currency transactions).

You haven't made a case for the benefits of that union, IMHO.

Quote:

I bet the airline industry saved some money too in eliminating the middleman at least in inter-eurozone transactions.

And that has what to do with my comment?
 
Machjo
#80
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBear View Post


And that has what to do with my comment?

Reduces overhead. FYI, the airline industry is part of the economy too.
 
petros
#81
Keep in mind that the United part of USA refers to a union.
 
CDNBear
#82
Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo View Post

Reduces overhead. FYI, the airline industry is part of the economy too.

And why would we care what another country does about its own overhead?
 
petros
+1
#83
Airlines are always over head?
 
Machjo
#84
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBear View Post

And why would we care what another country does about its own overhead?

Because it affects ours too. Just to take an example, prior to the euro, any Frenchman going to Germany had to convert his currency to spend in Germany and vice versa. In fact, had he bought to many Deutschmarken and then wanted to buy back some Franks, or heck, even if he'd changed his mind and converted all of his money back, he'd still be left with less owing to the currency trader upselling, which would be fair enough. And even if some shop at the border accepted the neighbouring country's currency, it would certainly upsell it to compensate for the extra inconvenience. They don't do this as a charity you know.

We face all the same problems in trade between Canada and the US right now, and it's mutually harmful to both economies. clearly the same would apply to a Quebec currency. It would be mutually harmful. you seem to believe that somehow Quebec would suffer and we'd be unscathed by such a separation. I can guarantee both sides would suffer total separation, and that's why it would be in the interests of both parties to try to maintian at least some form of unity even after Quebec sovereignty, even if only as a matter of peronsal interest.
 
CDNBear
#85
Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo View Post

Because it affects ours too. Just to take an example, prior to the euro, any Frenchman going to Germany had to convert his currency to spend in Germany and vice versa. In fact, had he bought to many Deutschmarken and then wanted to buy back some Franks, or heck, even if he'd changed his mind and converted all of his money back, he'd still be left with less owing to the currency trader upselling, which would be fair enough. And even if some shop at the border accepted the neighbouring country's currency, it would certainly upsell it to compensate for the extra inconvenience. They don't do this as a charity you know.

I never thought they did.

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We face all the same problems in trade between Canada and the US right now, and it's mutually harmful to both economies

That depends on whose dollar is higher..

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clearly the same would apply to a Quebec currency. It would be mutually harmful. you seem to believe that somehow Quebec would suffer and we'd be unscathed by such a separation.

No, I seem to think I don't care. If they want their own country, they should have it, with all their own infrastructure.

Quote:

I can guarantee both sides would suffer total separation, and that's why it would be in the interests of both parties to try to maintian at least some form of unity even after Quebec sovereignty, even if only as a matter of peronsal interest.

I prefer the tough love way.
 
Machjo
#86
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBear View Post

That depends on whose dollar is higher..

that's irrelevent in this case. Even if the Canadian dollar is stronger, it still doesn't change the fact that a US shop, even if it does accept Canadian dollars, would be accepting them at slightly below their real value. Likewise a Canadian shop accepting US dollars. Currency fluctuation is a separate matter. What we're talking about here is extra overhead, inconvenience, and in a middle man in the form of currency traders, essentially a make-work job in my opinion seeing that they don't actually make any productive contribution to the economy, as essential as they are in a multi-currency world.
 
CDNBear
#87
Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo View Post

that's irrelevent in this case. Even if the Canadian dollar is stronger, it still doesn't change the fact that a US shop, even if it does accept Canadian dollars, would be accepting them at slightly below their real value.

You're talking street value. Not applicable, in the scenario you're trying to create with a sovereign Quebec. Where trade is affected by our dollar v whomever.
 
petros
+1
#88
 
Machjo
+1
#89
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBear View Post

No, I seem to think I don't care. If they want their own country, they should have it, with all their own infrastructure.

I prefer the tough love way.

Again, totally irrational to be prepared to hurt Canada just so as to hurt Quebec.

Let's take the US-Canada relationship as an example. If the US really wanted to hurt Canada, it could easily do so via a trade war or some other kind of economic war. Canada would certainly suffer, and judging from our population compared to that of the US, possibly even 10 times more than the US would. Yet still, seeing that the US would suffer too, we could defend such an action on the part of the US strictly on emotionalism or sentimantality, a desire to hit us hard even if the US has to suffer too. It would be like the US poking its own eye out so as to poke two of ours out too. Stupid, really, seeing that ordinary Americans would suffer just to satisfy a politicians' blood lust.

The same applies here to Quebec. In any trade or other economic war between Canada and Queebc, certainly Quebec would likely suffer 4 times more than we would based on our population ratios, but it would still be stupid of us to shoot ourselves in the foot just to get at Quebec. Again, here you'd be reacting to pure emotion with little to no analytical thought put into it.
 
CDNBear
#90
Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo View Post

Again, totally irrational to be prepared to hurt Canada just so as to hurt Quebec.

Who says I'm trying to hurt Quebec?

I've used tough love on my sons, does that mean I was trying to hurt them?

How is granting Quebec total freedom to form and direct their own currency irrational?

Quote:

Let's take the US-Canada relationship as an example. If the US really wanted to hurt Canada, it could easily do so via a trade war or some other kind of economic war. Canada would certainly suffer, and judging from our population compared to that of the US, possibly even 10 times more than the US would. Yet still, seeing that the US would suffer too, we could defend such an action on the part of the US strictly on emotionalism or sentimantality, a desire to hit us hard even if the US has to suffer too. It would be like the US poking its own eye out so as to poke two of ours out too. Stupid, really, seeing that ordinary Americans would suffer just to satisfy a politicians' blood lust.

The same applies here to Quebec. In any trade or other economic war between Canada and Queebc, certainly Quebec would likely suffer 4 times more than we would based on our population ratios, but it would still be stupid of us to shoot ourselves in the foot just to get at Quebec. Again, here you'd be reacting to pure emotion with little to no analytical thought put into it.

What do trade wars have to do with you trying to compare street level currency exchange to trade?
 

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